Confusion nerf in PvE was intended

[nortask.8351]

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Bofouci.1320" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > > > If people only cared about numbers we'd all be playing weaver. Fact is axe mirage is way more fun to play than staff mirage. Provided axe build does reasonable numbers I rather play the axe than staff. But atm axe numbers are not reasonable and way underperforming.

> > > >

> > > > And mirage and confusion are very strong in competitive modes. I have yet to see a rule where every spec needs to be a raid spec.

> > >

> > > That's kinda the premise behind the game with it not having dedicated tank, heal, dps etc.. that each class was viable.

> >

> > Mirage is still viable.

>

> in PVP only.

>

 

well holy kitten, a pvp only spec??????? So what is Spell Breaker then, wanna party up with me for raids on my spell breaker? Remember back in core when Necros were WvW only characters? And Ranger had no role in the game at all? I didn't play during the HoT era, but from what I'm told Scrapper was pvp and wvw only, and back in core engi was pvp and wvw only as well. Not every class has to be good at pve, pvp, and wvw. Not every spec has to be viable 100% of the time. Mesmer has been viable, necessary even for all game modes since launch. I will admit pvp had an iffy point where they were usable but that really depended on if you had a player on your team that was good at it. I think the only other class to maybe can scrape that same title would be guard, but even that was iffy for pve back at launch. Before you say warrior, they were not used for pvp for quite a while back in core. Ele and rev aren't too hot in pvp right now, but Rev is great in wvw, and ele is killer for pve. This game is all about playing more than one class and adapting to things if you want to be "the best op thing in the game". If you don't care find groups who don't care and just have fun playing the kitten game.

[NeroBoron.7285]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

While i like to have it more hex style which feels more like gw1 mesmer. Confusion is the tiny bit that is left of a gw1 mesmer :S

I hope we are talking about axe ambush rework, I like axes of symmetry, maybe split the stacks in torment and confusion ;P

 

[Blaeys.3102]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

With all respect and bypassing the tired jokes/deflections about the word "soon," the process needs to "allow" this to happen much sooner rather than later (as in, don't make us wait an entire quarter to get our condi DPS builds back).

[shippage.1983]

Just PLEASE make the changes sooner rather than later. You guys drop way too big of changes with too little testing and then leave it that way for months. That's why this game turns toxic.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"nortask.8351" said:

> > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"Bofouci.1320" said:

> > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > > > > If people only cared about numbers we'd all be playing weaver. Fact is axe mirage is way more fun to play than staff mirage. Provided axe build does reasonable numbers I rather play the axe than staff. But atm axe numbers are not reasonable and way underperforming.

> > > > >

> > > > > And mirage and confusion are very strong in competitive modes. I have yet to see a rule where every spec needs to be a raid spec.

> > > >

> > > > That's kinda the premise behind the game with it not having dedicated tank, heal, dps etc.. that each class was viable.

> > >

> > > Mirage is still viable.

> >

> > in PVP only.

> >

>

> well holy kitten, a pvp only spec??????? So what is Spell Breaker then, wanna party up with me for raids on my spell breaker? Remember back in core when Necros were WvW only characters? And Ranger had no role in the game at all? I didn't play during the HoT era, but from what I'm told Scrapper was pvp and wvw only, and back in core engi was pvp and wvw only as well. Not every class has to be good at pve, pvp, and wvw. Not every spec has to be viable 100% of the time. Mesmer has been viable, necessary even for all game modes since launch. I will admit pvp had an iffy point where they were usable but that really depended on if you had a player on your team that was good at it. I think the only other class to maybe can scrape that same title would be guard, but even that was iffy for pve back at launch. Before you say warrior, they were not used for pvp for quite a while back in core. Ele and rev aren't too hot in pvp right now, but Rev is great in wvw, and ele is killer for pve. This game is all about playing more than one class and adapting to things if you want to be "the best op thing in the game". If you don't care find groups who don't care and just have fun playing the kitten game.

 

If you haven't noticed yet, Mirage came into gw2 being PVE viable since the launch of expansion 2. Quite obviously it was designed to be PVE viable for end game content such as fractals and RAID. Hence the current outrage and this current thread because it was turned unviable over night with a single patch.

[atlashugged.7642]

I think confusion should be shifted even further towards spike damage in pve. And have its effect changed so it triggers on the completion of an animation.

 

The mesmer condi playstyle could be about spiking enemies as they do animations, rather than passively applying a damage over time.

[Alex Shatter.7956]

There's already a great new Staff mirage build y'all can use in the meantime. in the next cycle, staff will be nerfed and axe will get torment. it's really not that dire of a situation

[Bofouci.1320]

> @"Alex Shatter.7956" said:

> There's already a great new Staff mirage build y'all can use in the meantime. in the next cycle, staff will be nerfed and axe will get torment. it's really not that dire of a situation

 

Even if/when axe switches to torment there's still the issue with Crystal Sands and Jaunt that heavily rely on confusion.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Bofouci.1320" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > > > If people only cared about numbers we'd all be playing weaver. Fact is axe mirage is way more fun to play than staff mirage. Provided axe build does reasonable numbers I rather play the axe than staff. But atm axe numbers are not reasonable and way underperforming.

> > > >

> > > > And mirage and confusion are very strong in competitive modes. I have yet to see a rule where every spec needs to be a raid spec.

> > >

> > > That's kinda the premise behind the game with it not having dedicated tank, heal, dps etc.. that each class was viable.

> >

> > Mirage is still viable.

>

> in PVP only.

>

 

learn the difference between viable and optimal

[squallaus.8321]

The new staff build is not new at all. it came out about the same time as the axe build after expansion 2 came out. just that staff build game play is really lame and lackluster compared to the axe build. People didn't like the staff game play back then they wont like it now. Slow movement and slow skill casting.... just really bad.

[Zenith.7301]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

Confusion is an iconic condition of the mesmer while torment should have stayed with revenant and necromancer.

 

Instead of leaving the condition alone for PvE, you've gutted mirage and their utilities/traits that apply confusion (including Jaunt, crystal sands, dune cloak, and riddle of sand on top of the axe and now magic bullet) out of a stubborn view that confusion shouldn't be split in mechancis between PvE and wvw/pvp.

 

Changes that would have made shatters attractive to condition builds like Cry of Pain with Cry of Frustration have been made worthless as well in PvE. Ineptitude among other condition traits made garbage overnight in PvE. Scepter's Confusing Images made from a decent ability in PvE into an entirely pointless one.

 

You've essentially made a condition pointless in the most played game format for no reason whatsoever.

 

There was a reason you changed confusion for PvE. And you reverted to an obsolete state in what is an unjustified turn of events.

 

Now it will take months of retooling condi mesmer damage output in PvE just because you couldn't keep the mechanical change restricted to pvp formats. What a total waste of development time to needlessly break something that will require further development sources to fix when the obvious solution was a format split.

[Bofouci.1320]

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

> The new staff build is not new at all. it came out about the same time as the axe build after expansion 2 came out. just that staff build game play is really lame and lackluster compared to the axe build. People didn't like the staff game play back then they wont like it now. Slow movement and slow skill casting.... just really bad.

 

Exactly. Axe/torch was in a good spot from a playability/fun perspective. Lots of flashy stuff and moving all over the place. Combine that with crystal sands and jaunt and the previous condi mirage meta was very fun to play and what I call viable (some folks say optimal) in end game areas such as raids, map meta bosses and fracs. It's difficult enough already to get into raid groups with the LI/KP requirements along with various boss mechanics and their needs without having another hurdle (dps loss) to jump over.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"Bofouci.1320" said:

> > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > > > > If people only cared about numbers we'd all be playing weaver. Fact is axe mirage is way more fun to play than staff mirage. Provided axe build does reasonable numbers I rather play the axe than staff. But atm axe numbers are not reasonable and way underperforming.

> > > > >

> > > > > And mirage and confusion are very strong in competitive modes. I have yet to see a rule where every spec needs to be a raid spec.

> > > >

> > > > That's kinda the premise behind the game with it not having dedicated tank, heal, dps etc.. that each class was viable.

> > >

> > > Mirage is still viable.

> >

> > in PVP only.

> >

>

> learn the difference between viable and optimal

 

learn to have some standards. or are you gonna get others to carry you through raid/fractals for the rest of your life?

[Lyndis.4653]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

I honestly cannot understand the logic behind this stance.

 

This seems to me like a perfect example where the PvE/PvP split would work wonders and yet you actually split confusion only to use its aspect that does not work well in PvE. Ticking to warn about the effect doesn't mean anything in PvE and that is where the problem lies.

 

Skill activation on PvE enemies is not reliable and not frequent enough to make confusion interesting as a burst condition like you envision. It was worthless for a very long time and the changes you made to it were perfect for PvE IMO. It made for condi variety : reliable bleeds or conditionnal "bleeds" like torment and confusion with each having its ups and downs.

 

IMO if your solution to solve the confusion problem is to change the confusion dealing skills to inflict torment instead then it is more or less admitting "confusion is not suitable for PvE as is" and reads like "removed confusion from PvE".

 

I don't mind too much since torment is potent anyway and the mesmer changes are amazing overall (GJ on that really :) !) but to me this is probably the worst decision to have ever been made to PvE skill balancing since launch : you are reverting the change that actually made confusion a nice PvE condition. Please seriously consider reverting the change for PvE !

[Feersum Endjinn.4179]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> No benchmark ever created for raiders was realistic. Mirage is not dead. Adapt or switch to new power chrono.

Do you know the difference between chrono and mirage? Doesn't seem like you have a clue.

[Bofouci.1320]

Really bugs me that we're getting half-baked gameplay myopic answers here as it pertains to confusion and PVE. We've heard axe will be changed but confusion is so prevalent in the mirage line that axe skill alone is not enough. Jaunt, Crystal Sands, Riddle of Sand and Renewing Oasis all need to be sorted in addition to Imaginary Axes.

[Genesis.5169]

I really hate how quickly Anet nerfs mesmers when the community cries compared to other classes. It really unfair and unjust.

[Coulter.2315]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

Could you increase the duration of PvE confusion to bring some consistancy in damage per application, rather than shoving torment on everything.

[Xyonon.3987]

I think these confusion changes were a huge step backwards in terms of PvE. PvP and WvW I've heared it recieved lots of good feedback! But in PvE, as others have said, there are more confusion skills than the axe and there are other professions too that apply confusion. For instance this change was the final blow for the condi Engineer aswell. Enemies do not attack often enough to justivy such a massive nerf. The damage must've been increased by big fat 300% to get to the same numbers as before and that's just not good.

 

I hope changes won't take too long. Engis still have Holo as dps spec, Renegade seems fine too with all the buffs they've got but Mirage currently survives due to a bugged staff rotation. After that's been fixed - Mirage has been removed from PvE ... again.

[Heika.5403]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"Bofouci.1320" said:

> > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > > > > If people only cared about numbers we'd all be playing weaver. Fact is axe mirage is way more fun to play than staff mirage. Provided axe build does reasonable numbers I rather play the axe than staff. But atm axe numbers are not reasonable and way underperforming.

> > > > >

> > > > > And mirage and confusion are very strong in competitive modes. I have yet to see a rule where every spec needs to be a raid spec.

> > > >

> > > > That's kinda the premise behind the game with it not having dedicated tank, heal, dps etc.. that each class was viable.

> > >

> > > Mirage is still viable.

> >

> > in PVP only.

> >

>

> learn the difference between viable and optimal

 

Yes, is optimal for an instant kick now as a I saw this afternoon with both hybrid or condition build. But we can adapt to the single viable in power or avoid that content. I prefer the second option, so I'll get rid of the raid for a few months until the changes Karl has commented on. Fortunately successive changes will come in a few months and we can use again the weapons we like there. With a bit of luck, they will review the scepter as well.

[Angel de Lyssa.4716]

I am saddened that the mesmer, especially the essence of the mesmer of gw1, is being forgotten. Confusion is the vital essence of the mesmer, it is what reincarnates the mesmer of gw1.

 

And that to technical problems inherent to the game and program. In the form of how the game is designed and the dynamics of combat. You have to destroy a special mechanics of the mesmer, is the condition "confusion".

 

And the worst of all, is that the Mirage, a specialization based on the "Confusion", is going to be eliminated by complete, and replaced by another condition "Torment", a condition that does not characterize the mesmer, although it is similar to the " Confusion".

 

The only thing I have so as not to lose hope with the mesmer in gw2, is that the scepter is the only weapon that keeps the mesmer from gw1, based on "confusion". The day that is also eliminated ("Confusion" of scepter), I will stop playing GW2, until I find a future GW3, more similar to GW1, where the skills are more "metagame", with spells like "Empathy" and "Backfire" (Which would be the "confusion" in gw2).

[Heika.5403]

> @"Karl McLain.5604":

Please, Karl, take a look at the scepter to be able to update it and make it a viable and competitive option again, at least in pve, and reduce the cd of the torch skills if possible to make it's use more fluid, thank you.

 

[Kitta.3657]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

I don't understand. You just explained to us how Confusion should be and then go and say that you'll just move Confusion out of the question on axe? On a time table we are completely in the dark about... This doesn't make sense. This would affect a Condi Mirage in PvP. Why not come out and say you believe that Confusion should be a rarer condition because that's what this ends up telling us? Bringing Torment into the Axe instead of Confusion will help Axe in PvE but then will remove the Confusion part from it's PvP version. This sounds to me a whole lot more complicated and unnecessary than splitting Confusion from a DOT in PvE and more of that 'hex' type in PvP. Isn't the reasoning behind limiting the amount of splits, especially of things like this, between gamemodes so the game has better cohesion and consistency? Having Axe be a Confusion weapon in PvP and a Torment weapon in PvE doesn't follow that direction, at least far less than having a condition function differently between 2 gamemodes that ask for such separation.

 

I feel like if Axe becomes a Torment weapon, we'll lose out on flavor and more interesting mechanics from the PvP side to fix the issue you just created in PvE while the best solution for everyone involved is to have a split for Confusion instead. The game is not designed overall in a fashion that benefits enough from having Confusion not be a DOT as well in PvE, it's unrealistic to expect AI to be reworked everywhere to accommodate to this idea which in turn means that you don't think Confusion has it's place as a viable damaging condition in PvE but are being too cagey about outright saying it. :/

 

Plus, as an added sidenote; Whole of Mirage has Confusion baked in it, it's not just Axe. Utilities and traits have confusion as their damage condition. It's even part of the theme of the specialization! Again, looks like more effort than warranted to change this.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> I really hate how quickly Anet nerfs mesmers when the community cries compared to other classes. It really unfair and unjust.

 

The problem is the community thinks that Mesmer is Anet’s wonder child and never gets nerfed and the vast majority of them complain when they go into PvP or WvW from PvE and get wrecked because they can’t play “competitively”. So they come to the forums and whine. They don’t care that since inception the Mesmer class has been then reciepent of enormous nerfs and it wasn’t until recently the class started getting fixed not broken.

Now that doesn’t mean condi Mesmer lately was strong because it was. But a smart thing to have done would have been remove the passive tick in PvP/WvW only or nerf to duration only. Either would have worked I think.

[Conncept.7638]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

> >

> > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters.

>

> While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous.

 

You part of the dev team? Because just like them you seem to have forgotten there is PvE in this game outside raids, and a confusion mesmer is now unusable in all of it.