Kas.3509 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > @"Kas.3509" said: > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing: > > > > > > > > > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar. > > > > > > > > > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You part of the dev team? Because just like them you seem to have forgotten there is PvE in this game outside raids, and a confusion mesmer is now unusable in all of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can player power build. It's even much more reasonable to play power builds in open world. > > > > > > > > > > > > Confusion has a flavor, along with the builds behind it, it fulfills a fantasy of a character so beguiling and tricky they can make an enemy defeat themselves. For a lot of players, it is what makes a mesmer, a mesmer. And now, that fantasy is gone, and with it the mesmer, removed from the game in the name of PvP players, and the devs don't give a crap, because players like you parroting the word "viable" are the only PvE players they seem to care about at all these days. > > > > > > > > > > What flavour? There was no flavour in pve, confusion was nothing more than a purple bleed that was doing an extra proc once every few seconds, when the mob remembered to cast a skill. > > > > > > > > Are you and players like you really so far gone that you don't even know what flavor is? > > > > > > > > Tell me, old school pen & paper RPG, you have the same situation, an ability in the game allows you to get an enemy to damage themselves, it is the only ability that does this. But wait, let's examine the mechanics behind this, to use this ability you roll the exact same dice as any other ability, you have a minimum hit rating and a critical rating exactly the same as any other ability, and to decide it's power you draw from the same group of stats as any other ability. > > > > > > > > As you've described flavor, nonsensically claiming it is reliant on mechanical viability, the above has no flavor. And yet, anyone who has played an old school RPG can tell you, it feels different, it feels more flavorful in fact than far too many games these days. > > > > > > > > It doesn't take heavy handed mechanics to individualize an ability, to make it flavorful, as displayed above it doesn't really take any mechanics at all. In the above scenario there is literally not a difference between that ability and hundreds of others, save its name and description, and if you have a good GM, how he describes it upon use. And similarly, it does not take being completely mechanically differentiated for confusion to feel like its own unique piece of the game. > > > > > > > > You could, in reality, take this game or any other, change all the characters to grey boxes, the world to a grey plane, and the skillbar to nothing but numbers, and all mechanics would be retained exactly the same, with all of the flavor, gone. > > > > > > > > And honestly, at this point, I wouldn't even be surprised if players like you were totally fine with that, and that is a sad state for a community of gamers, and especially for a team game developers, to find themselves in. > > > > > > You don't know what players "like me" are or want, so spare me the assumptions. > > > > > > Your post is nothing more than thinly-veiled hypocricy. Your problem is not flavour, your problem is that confusion is not good damage anymore. Because the change to confusion, which was more going back to the roots of the condition rather than an actual change, increases the flavour of it. You said it yourself, you have a mechanic that punishes someone for using skills. And the change puts an emphasis to that, by removing the passive component and increasing the active. > > > > > > At least others admit they just want their broken build, but you are sitting here talking about flavours. > > > > I know this post wasnt aimed to me but... > > Are you insane? Broken how exactly? > > Most players want confusion change reverted ONLY in pve. So you say it'll be broken in pve? Right now with torment on mesmer axe, damage is basically the same as it was with confusion. So how exactly broken we want it to be if damage is the same before and after change? What you said makes no sense at all. > > > > For me flavor is basically skill look and description. If I create a cleric in some game, I dont want him going around casting acid bolts for lets say 600 dmg. I want him to cast something like spears made of light for 600 dmg. > > Idc that in terms of winning/losing a fight its the same. > > > > Mesmer, master of manipulation, making enemies confused or dazed is something that fits mesmer flavor in my mind and it seems many other players think the same. On the other hand torment is something I see as necromancer stuff. It just doesnt fit the theme. I get it that you may not care about stuff like that but many players do. > > > > I wouldnt want engineers controlling the dead, necromancers making clones, rangers throwing elixirs and thieves casting fireballs even if it was all balanced. For the exact same reason I want confusion, not torment, on my mesmer to work. Its simple as that. > > But it's not about trading your spears of light for acid bolts. It's about having both, but acid bolts do more damage than spears of light in pve. > > Because confusion wasn't removed from the game, it's still here. So, as I said above, it's about the damage. You want confusion to be good damage so you use it, instead of being pushed to higher dps builds that use other conditions. > > And it's not something I disagree with, and I've said it in other posts. But it's not about flavour, it's about min-maxing, and it getting in the way of flavourful builds. I'd be perfectly happy if they gave us back confusion and made it the same dmg as it is now with torment in PVE. Torment in PVE is way better than confusion ever was anyway in dmg terms. Lots of mobs/bosses move and not many of them use skills. The thing is I wouldnt want to have acid bolts on my cleric at all. Not even if he had light spears too. Its like having thief stealing and stealthing but ALSO casting fireballs and raising dead. For me its headshot in the lore and in the theme : <. The problem is right now I MIGHT have also confusion skills, but so what? Using them "just to use them" and have no effect because they hit for like 10 dmg has no sense at all. After these changes everyone wants to just throw away all confusion because its useless. Not just "not meta" because its not "the best in the slot". Its completely useless. I know that at this point Anet probably won't listen to it at all, because they have their own vision so I am not going to complain on this any longer. I stated my opinion. For people liking flavor and RP its just a sad change, but still better than leaving us with 10k dmg after nerf I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walhalla.5473 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > @"Kas.3509" said: > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing: > > > > > > > > > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar. > > > > > > > > > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You part of the dev team? Because just like them you seem to have forgotten there is PvE in this game outside raids, and a confusion mesmer is now unusable in all of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can player power build. It's even much more reasonable to play power builds in open world. > > > > > > > > > > > > Confusion has a flavor, along with the builds behind it, it fulfills a fantasy of a character so beguiling and tricky they can make an enemy defeat themselves. For a lot of players, it is what makes a mesmer, a mesmer. And now, that fantasy is gone, and with it the mesmer, removed from the game in the name of PvP players, and the devs don't give a crap, because players like you parroting the word "viable" are the only PvE players they seem to care about at all these days. > > > > > > > > > > What flavour? There was no flavour in pve, confusion was nothing more than a purple bleed that was doing an extra proc once every few seconds, when the mob remembered to cast a skill. > > > > > > > > Are you and players like you really so far gone that you don't even know what flavor is? > > > > > > > > Tell me, old school pen & paper RPG, you have the same situation, an ability in the game allows you to get an enemy to damage themselves, it is the only ability that does this. But wait, let's examine the mechanics behind this, to use this ability you roll the exact same dice as any other ability, you have a minimum hit rating and a critical rating exactly the same as any other ability, and to decide it's power you draw from the same group of stats as any other ability. > > > > > > > > As you've described flavor, nonsensically claiming it is reliant on mechanical viability, the above has no flavor. And yet, anyone who has played an old school RPG can tell you, it feels different, it feels more flavorful in fact than far too many games these days. > > > > > > > > It doesn't take heavy handed mechanics to individualize an ability, to make it flavorful, as displayed above it doesn't really take any mechanics at all. In the above scenario there is literally not a difference between that ability and hundreds of others, save its name and description, and if you have a good GM, how he describes it upon use. And similarly, it does not take being completely mechanically differentiated for confusion to feel like its own unique piece of the game. > > > > > > > > You could, in reality, take this game or any other, change all the characters to grey boxes, the world to a grey plane, and the skillbar to nothing but numbers, and all mechanics would be retained exactly the same, with all of the flavor, gone. > > > > > > > > And honestly, at this point, I wouldn't even be surprised if players like you were totally fine with that, and that is a sad state for a community of gamers, and especially for a team game developers, to find themselves in. > > > > > > You don't know what players "like me" are or want, so spare me the assumptions. > > > > > > Your post is nothing more than thinly-veiled hypocricy. Your problem is not flavour, your problem is that confusion is not good damage anymore. Because the change to confusion, which was more going back to the roots of the condition rather than an actual change, increases the flavour of it. You said it yourself, you have a mechanic that punishes someone for using skills. And the change puts an emphasis to that, by removing the passive component and increasing the active. > > > > > > At least others admit they just want their broken build, but you are sitting here talking about flavours. > > > > I know this post wasnt aimed to me but... > > Are you insane? Broken how exactly? > > Most players want confusion change reverted ONLY in pve. So you say it'll be broken in pve? Right now with torment on mesmer axe, damage is basically the same as it was with confusion. So how exactly broken we want it to be if damage is the same before and after change? What you said makes no sense at all. > > > > For me flavor is basically skill look and description. If I create a cleric in some game, I dont want him going around casting acid bolts for lets say 600 dmg. I want him to cast something like spears made of light for 600 dmg. > > Idc that in terms of winning/losing a fight its the same. > > > > Mesmer, master of manipulation, making enemies confused or dazed is something that fits mesmer flavor in my mind and it seems many other players think the same. On the other hand torment is something I see as necromancer stuff. It just doesnt fit the theme. I get it that you may not care about stuff like that but many players do. > > > > I wouldnt want engineers controlling the dead, necromancers making clones, rangers throwing elixirs and thieves casting fireballs even if it was all balanced. For the exact same reason I want confusion, not torment, on my mesmer to work. Its simple as that. > > But it's not about trading your spears of light for acid bolts. It's about having both, but acid bolts do more damage than spears of light in pve. > > Because confusion wasn't removed from the game, it's still here. So, as I said above, it's about the damage. You want confusion to be good damage so you use it, instead of being pushed to higher dps builds that use other conditions. Correction. Confusion WAS removed from PvE gameplay. The thing thats there in PvE is just a broken shell still calling itself confusion, and you can't do good damage with it in PvE since Mobs use skills quite rarely. People who want confusion to do good damage in PvE want the change to be reverted, which is the only right thing Anet can do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > Yes, the change didn't need to happen in pve. Yes, it's a loss of build variety. But it's not the destruction of the flavour of the entire class, because confusion is still a part of mesmer with the same mechanics and packaging it existed for the majority of this game's life. And if that's still a loss of flavour for you, then that flavour never existed in the first place, and it was only something Mirage intrioduced. I don't mind them replacing it with torment, but it has to be across the board with confusion in its current (useless) state. It is unacceptable to me to leave skills like Cry of Frustration, scepter skills, and Jaunt with confusion in this state. Still, I don't think it's an ideal solution and, worse, it solves a problem that never should have been! If you ask me, all of this simply works better if you revert the change to confusion in PvE. No need to re-evaluate skills because the condition actually works! No thematic/flavor issues because we aren't losing anything. Although you weren't responding to me, I happen to be one of those players who just never enjoyed core or chrono. Axe Mirage clicked with me right away. So, yeah, I was pretty upset when they dropped this hammer out of left field and completely broke my spec's ability to deal damage effectively. It's really all mirage brings to the table, and combined with Mirage's elusiveness, it's also integral to solo survival. Take the damage away and Mirage isn't very fun or effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Lure.5624 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 It's sad though, is there really a big issue with design to have the condition split in game modes, if you make it standardized? I don't see how that would be any harder to balance around, and i was never ever confused ( :P ) about how this ability works, not when it was like this originally or when it had more damage over time. The values don't matter; all you need to know is it deals damage over time, but deals more if enemy uses abilities. I don't think that perception changes if you go with an easy, standardized modifier for the pve over time damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoltar MacRoth.7146 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 On a positive note, I've got a simple solution to propose to Anet. Who needs all this confusion, torment, bleeding, poison, etc? Too many messy conditions to keep track of. Take them all away and give everybody fire. Just fire. Ele already has yellow fire. Guardian has blue fire. Let my mesmer shoot PURPLE FIRE! Ranger can have green fire.. oh, wait. Necro has green fire. Well, Ranger can have brown fire, Thief can have black fire and Engineer can have holographic fire. And warrior.. uh, well, warrior can have manly pink fire. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"Zoltar MacRoth.7146" said: > On a positive note, I've got a simple solution to propose to Anet. Who needs all this confusion, torment, bleeding, poison, etc? Too many messy conditions to keep track of. Take them all away and give everybody fire. Just fire. > > Ele already has yellow fire. Guardian has blue fire. Let my mesmer shoot PURPLE FIRE! Ranger can have green fire.. oh, wait. Necro has green fire. Well, Ranger can have brown fire, Thief can have black fire and Engineer can have holographic fire. And warrior.. uh, well, warrior can have manly pink fire. > > Problem solved. Having a single damaging condition would be awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoltar MacRoth.7146 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"Zoltar MacRoth.7146" said: > > On a positive note, I've got a simple solution to propose to Anet. Who needs all this confusion, torment, bleeding, poison, etc? Too many messy conditions to keep track of. Take them all away and give everybody fire. Just fire. > > > > Ele already has yellow fire. Guardian has blue fire. Let my mesmer shoot PURPLE FIRE! Ranger can have green fire.. oh, wait. Necro has green fire. Well, Ranger can have brown fire, Thief can have black fire and Engineer can have holographic fire. And warrior.. uh, well, warrior can have manly pink fire. > > > > Problem solved. > > Having a single damaging condition would be awful. O_o Duuuuuude.. joke. You dang killed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel de Lyssa.4716 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Some ideas for condition "Confusion" on pve. **CONFUSION** _Exactly the same formula that have now, only that in pve, when the enemy receives the "Confusion" (in the moment who receives it), at the beginning of the timer (of each Confusion), he receives complete damage, as if he had activated some ability, then continue affected, that if use any skills o attacks, receive damage, following the same mechanics until its duration ends (of the Confusion)._ **This change or added for "Confusion" (only on pve), we ensure a fixed damage and causing, and solve the problem we have with the mobs.** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carighan.6758 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > Having a single damaging condition would be awful. For lore-purposes, yes. But functionally there's no issue with them all working the exact same way. I really think the blinds-on test is good for finding out whether having an extra design element makes sense: Taking away all indicators of the special nature of something, would a player still be able to infer it? If no, there's **probably** no reason to have it. Cut as many aspects away as possible, see when core gameplay falters, then take one step back. In this case, having 4+ conditions which all provide "just" damage over time **is** a bit pointless, even though this "fix" (I feel dirty calling it that) is doing anything but fixing it. But yes, I feel without numbers or tooltips, there would for example be no way to tell whether you are causing Burning or Bleeding -> There's no non-lore reason to have both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"Heika.5403" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > @"Bofouci.1320" said: > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > > > > > > If people only cared about numbers we'd all be playing weaver. Fact is axe mirage is way more fun to play than staff mirage. Provided axe build does reasonable numbers I rather play the axe than staff. But atm axe numbers are not reasonable and way underperforming. > > > > > > > > > > > > And mirage and confusion are very strong in competitive modes. I have yet to see a rule where every spec needs to be a raid spec. > > > > > > > > > > That's kinda the premise behind the game with it not having dedicated tank, heal, dps etc.. that each class was viable. > > > > > > > > Mirage is still viable. > > > > > > in PVP only. > > > > > > > learn the difference between viable and optimal > > Yes, is optimal for an instant kick now as a I saw this afternoon with both hybrid or condition build. But we can adapt to the single viable in power or avoid that content. I prefer the second option, so I'll get rid of the raid for a few months until the changes Karl has commented on. Fortunately successive changes will come in a few months and we can use again the weapons we like there. With a bit of luck, they will review the scepter as well. Take the advice every snide person has said to basically every necro after HoT, every thief when rev was dominant, rev when thief replaced it, and every ranger before the first expansion in fractals and dungeons: Reroll or find an all-welcome group. This is how PvE "balance" works. Only a few things will ever be optimal, and people will knee-jerk exclude it when it no longer is. This is the ugly reality of raids. At least you still have chrono. As for people talking about confusion needing to be permanent and bosses having slow attack speeds... even if the values are too low in PvE, you're doing it wrong. Predict the boss will attack, and overload the hell out of them with confusion right before it does. In a multi-attack scenario, you should be dealing bonkers damage because it procs on every hit of the sequence. During any amount of time the boss isn't attacking, you don't need to bother with confusion because it's not supposed to do anything. So maybe the formula needs adjusting but you all need to get out of the mindset that this condition is meant to be sustained. It isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"Lyndis.4653" said: > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing: > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar. > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows. > > I honestly cannot understand the logic behind this stance. > > This seems to me like a perfect example where the PvE/PvP split would work wonders and yet you actually split confusion only to use its aspect that does not work well in PvE. Ticking to warn about the effect doesn't mean anything in PvE and that is where the problem lies. > > Skill activation on PvE enemies is not reliable and not frequent enough to make confusion interesting as a burst condition like you envision. It was worthless for a very long time and the changes you made to it were perfect for PvE IMO. It made for condi variety : reliable bleeds or conditionnal "bleeds" like torment and confusion with each having its ups and downs. > > IMO if your solution to solve the confusion problem is to change the confusion dealing skills to inflict torment instead then it is more or less admitting "confusion is not suitable for PvE as is" and reads like "removed confusion from PvE". > > I don't mind too much since torment is potent anyway and the mesmer changes are amazing overall (GJ on that really :) !) but to me this is probably the worst decision to have ever been made to PvE skill balancing since launch : you are reverting the change that actually made confusion a nice PvE condition. Please seriously consider reverting the change for PvE ! I think the issue is that anet do not split mechanisms, they only split "numbers". This change is faithfull to this idea. They changed the mechanism of confusion back to a "bursty" condition instead of a damage overtime condition. Their philosophy prevent them to split how the 2 differents damaging component are affected by condition damage based on the game mode it is in. How I see it, previously both the condition tick and on skill damage were affected by condition damage while now only the on skill damages are affected. A mechanic change have been done and anet don't split mechanics between game modes. Now, "historically", both confusion and torment fit the mesmer pretty well. In gw1 mesmer's hexes were the closest to these two conditions. In gw2, torment being a necromancer's condition is merely a thing since scourge, when the condition was released, mesmers gained the larger share of it while warriors and necromancers were given what remained (the necromancer being given the lower uptime and stacks of the three). Personnally I think torment is ok, it fit the mind mage thematic as well as confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walhalla.5473 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > @"Bofouci.1320" said: > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > > > > > > > If people only cared about numbers we'd all be playing weaver. Fact is axe mirage is way more fun to play than staff mirage. Provided axe build does reasonable numbers I rather play the axe than staff. But atm axe numbers are not reasonable and way underperforming. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And mirage and confusion are very strong in competitive modes. I have yet to see a rule where every spec needs to be a raid spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's kinda the premise behind the game with it not having dedicated tank, heal, dps etc.. that each class was viable. > > > > > > > > > > Mirage is still viable. > > > > > > > > in PVP only. > > > > > > > > > > learn the difference between viable and optimal > > > > Yes, is optimal for an instant kick now as a I saw this afternoon with both hybrid or condition build. But we can adapt to the single viable in power or avoid that content. I prefer the second option, so I'll get rid of the raid for a few months until the changes Karl has commented on. Fortunately successive changes will come in a few months and we can use again the weapons we like there. With a bit of luck, they will review the scepter as well. > Predict the boss will attack, and overload the hell out of them with confusion right before it does. In a multi-attack scenario, you should be dealing bonkers damage because it procs on every hit of the sequence. During any amount of time the boss isn't attacking, you don't need to bother with confusion because it's not supposed to do anything. Still doesn't work. Mirage could overload the hell out out of the bosses with confusion at all time, guess what? Overall DPS was still shit even with fast sequence attacks or skill spamming like cairn did ( well compared to other bosses he was skill spamming ). Most bosses don't have something like a fast attacking sequense and some aren't even using skills at all. PVE environment is quite different from PvP environment, which is why the new confusion ( which is closer to its 2012 iteration ) doesn't work in PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"Carighan.6758" said: > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > Having a single damaging condition would be awful. > > For lore-purposes, yes. But functionally there's no issue with them all working the exact same way. > > I really think the blinds-on test is good for finding out whether having an extra design element makes sense: Taking away all indicators of the special nature of something, would a player still be able to infer it? If no, there's **probably** no reason to have it. Cut as many aspects away as possible, see when core gameplay falters, then take one step back. > > In this case, having 4+ conditions which all provide "just" damage over time **is** a bit pointless, even though this "fix" (I feel dirty calling it that) is doing anything but fixing it. > > But yes, I feel without numbers or tooltips, there would for example be no way to tell whether you are causing Burning or Bleeding -> There's no non-lore reason to have both. Not at all true. Different conditions are not put in place for lore reasons, but for gameplay mechanics. If done well, it works amazingly. You have burning doing very high damage per second, but doesn't last very long, allowing for a "bursty" DoT condition. Bleed is a lower damage per second, being the general DoT. Confusion is obviously geared at denying the enemy the chance to use skills, by punishing them quite heavily when they do use skills. Its an entirely different gameplay mechanic to a simple DoT. Similarly, torment was put in game to punish players for trying to outmaneuver you (there's a reason it was originally given to Necros). These conditions are different for a reason. Simplifying them to a single condition would be disastrous mechanics wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoltar MacRoth.7146 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > I think the issue is that anet do not split mechanisms, they only split "numbers". This change is faithfull to this idea. They changed the mechanism of confusion back to a "bursty" condition instead of a damage overtime condition. > > Their philosophy prevent them to split how the 2 differents damaging component are affected by condition damage based on the game mode it is in. How I see it, previously both the condition tick and on skill damage were affected by condition damage while now only the on skill damages are affected. A mechanic change have been done and anet don't split mechanics between game modes. You may be right about the mechanisms vs numbers problem... but you've provided the solution to it in your second paragraph! If the point was for condition damage to have no effect, they could have tweaked the condition damage modifier to 1 in PvE (i.e. anything multipled by 1 remains the same). This would have been a "numbers" solution that simulates the "mechanisms" issue you've proposed. As always, I have no inside info on the game and am not proposing a solution, just following through on the interesting thought experiment you've proposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > @"Bofouci.1320" said: > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > > > > > > > If people only cared about numbers we'd all be playing weaver. Fact is axe mirage is way more fun to play than staff mirage. Provided axe build does reasonable numbers I rather play the axe than staff. But atm axe numbers are not reasonable and way underperforming. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And mirage and confusion are very strong in competitive modes. I have yet to see a rule where every spec needs to be a raid spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's kinda the premise behind the game with it not having dedicated tank, heal, dps etc.. that each class was viable. > > > > > > > > > > Mirage is still viable. > > > > > > > > in PVP only. > > > > > > > > > > learn the difference between viable and optimal > > > > Yes, is optimal for an instant kick now as a I saw this afternoon with both hybrid or condition build. But we can adapt to the single viable in power or avoid that content. I prefer the second option, so I'll get rid of the raid for a few months until the changes Karl has commented on. Fortunately successive changes will come in a few months and we can use again the weapons we like there. With a bit of luck, they will review the scepter as well. > > Take the advice every snide person has said to basically every necro after HoT, every thief when rev was dominant, rev when thief replaced it, and every ranger before the first expansion in fractals and dungeons: > > Reroll or find an all-welcome group. > This is how PvE "balance" works. Only a few things will ever be optimal, and people will knee-jerk exclude it when it no longer is. This is the ugly reality of raids. At least you still have chrono. > > As for people talking about confusion needing to be permanent and bosses having slow attack speeds... even if the values are too low in PvE, you're doing it wrong. > > Predict the boss will attack, and overload the hell out of them with confusion right before it does. In a multi-attack scenario, you should be dealing bonkers damage because it procs on every hit of the sequence. During any amount of time the boss isn't attacking, you don't need to bother with confusion because it's not supposed to do anything. > > So maybe the formula needs adjusting but you all need to get out of the mindset that this condition is meant to be sustained. It isn't. Then just remove it, because what you just described simply does not work in PvE. Apparently, the devs agree (See axe). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"Carighan.6758" said: > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > Having a single damaging condition would be awful. > > > > For lore-purposes, yes. But functionally there's no issue with them all working the exact same way. > > > > I really think the blinds-on test is good for finding out whether having an extra design element makes sense: Taking away all indicators of the special nature of something, would a player still be able to infer it? If no, there's **probably** no reason to have it. Cut as many aspects away as possible, see when core gameplay falters, then take one step back. > > > > In this case, having 4+ conditions which all provide "just" damage over time **is** a bit pointless, even though this "fix" (I feel dirty calling it that) is doing anything but fixing it. > > > > But yes, I feel without numbers or tooltips, there would for example be no way to tell whether you are causing Burning or Bleeding -> There's no non-lore reason to have both. > > Not at all true. Different conditions are not put in place for lore reasons, but for gameplay mechanics. If done well, it works amazingly. You have burning doing very high damage per second, but doesn't last very long, allowing for a "bursty" DoT condition. Bleed is a lower damage per second, being the general DoT. Confusion is obviously geared at denying the enemy the chance to use skills, by punishing them quite heavily when they do use skills. Its an entirely different gameplay mechanic to a simple DoT. Similarly, torment was put in game to punish players for trying to outmaneuver you (there's a reason it was originally given to Necros). > > These conditions are different for a reason. Simplifying them to a single condition would be disastrous mechanics wise. Yes, but confusion completely loses its identity in PvE. PvE enemies behave the same regardless of whether confusion is in play. It loses its control function and becomes only damage - and poor damage at that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > @"Carighan.6758" said: > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > Having a single damaging condition would be awful. > > > > > > For lore-purposes, yes. But functionally there's no issue with them all working the exact same way. > > > > > > I really think the blinds-on test is good for finding out whether having an extra design element makes sense: Taking away all indicators of the special nature of something, would a player still be able to infer it? If no, there's **probably** no reason to have it. Cut as many aspects away as possible, see when core gameplay falters, then take one step back. > > > > > > In this case, having 4+ conditions which all provide "just" damage over time **is** a bit pointless, even though this "fix" (I feel dirty calling it that) is doing anything but fixing it. > > > > > > But yes, I feel without numbers or tooltips, there would for example be no way to tell whether you are causing Burning or Bleeding -> There's no non-lore reason to have both. > > > > Not at all true. Different conditions are not put in place for lore reasons, but for gameplay mechanics. If done well, it works amazingly. You have burning doing very high damage per second, but doesn't last very long, allowing for a "bursty" DoT condition. Bleed is a lower damage per second, being the general DoT. Confusion is obviously geared at denying the enemy the chance to use skills, by punishing them quite heavily when they do use skills. Its an entirely different gameplay mechanic to a simple DoT. Similarly, torment was put in game to punish players for trying to outmaneuver you (there's a reason it was originally given to Necros). > > > > These conditions are different for a reason. Simplifying them to a single condition would be disastrous mechanics wise. > > Yes, but confusion completely loses its identity in PvE. PvE enemies behave the same regardless of whether confusion is in play. It loses its control function and becomes only damage - and poor damage at that! That's a different problem, one that Anet had solved by raising confusions passive tick damage in PvE. It was probably too high yes, confusion, and torment to some extent, are clearly conditions that are aimed at a PvP context, not a PvE one, so having confusion deal at least as much damage as bleed each tick was probably too high. But that doesn't change the fact that confusion functioned differently from a pure DoT for a reason, and homogenizing all damaging conditions to be the same would be awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > @"Carighan.6758" said: > > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > Having a single damaging condition would be awful. > > > > > > > > For lore-purposes, yes. But functionally there's no issue with them all working the exact same way. > > > > > > > > I really think the blinds-on test is good for finding out whether having an extra design element makes sense: Taking away all indicators of the special nature of something, would a player still be able to infer it? If no, there's **probably** no reason to have it. Cut as many aspects away as possible, see when core gameplay falters, then take one step back. > > > > > > > > In this case, having 4+ conditions which all provide "just" damage over time **is** a bit pointless, even though this "fix" (I feel dirty calling it that) is doing anything but fixing it. > > > > > > > > But yes, I feel without numbers or tooltips, there would for example be no way to tell whether you are causing Burning or Bleeding -> There's no non-lore reason to have both. > > > > > > Not at all true. Different conditions are not put in place for lore reasons, but for gameplay mechanics. If done well, it works amazingly. You have burning doing very high damage per second, but doesn't last very long, allowing for a "bursty" DoT condition. Bleed is a lower damage per second, being the general DoT. Confusion is obviously geared at denying the enemy the chance to use skills, by punishing them quite heavily when they do use skills. Its an entirely different gameplay mechanic to a simple DoT. Similarly, torment was put in game to punish players for trying to outmaneuver you (there's a reason it was originally given to Necros). > > > > > > These conditions are different for a reason. Simplifying them to a single condition would be disastrous mechanics wise. > > > > Yes, but confusion completely loses its identity in PvE. PvE enemies behave the same regardless of whether confusion is in play. It loses its control function and becomes only damage - and poor damage at that! > > That's a different problem, one that Anet had solved by raising confusions passive tick damage in PvE. It was probably too high yes, confusion, and torment to some extent, are clearly conditions that are aimed at a PvP context, not a PvE one, so having confusion deal at least as much damage as bleed each tick was probably too high. But that doesn't change the fact that confusion functioned differently from a pure DoT for a reason, and homogenizing all damaging conditions to be the same would be awful. WTH? It wasn't too high. Mirage pre-feb patch was not even the top DPS spec. How would confusion or torment be too high in PvE when the top DPS specs in raiding used neither? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > @"Carighan.6758" said: > > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > Having a single damaging condition would be awful. > > > > > > > > For lore-purposes, yes. But functionally there's no issue with them all working the exact same way. > > > > > > > > I really think the blinds-on test is good for finding out whether having an extra design element makes sense: Taking away all indicators of the special nature of something, would a player still be able to infer it? If no, there's **probably** no reason to have it. Cut as many aspects away as possible, see when core gameplay falters, then take one step back. > > > > > > > > In this case, having 4+ conditions which all provide "just" damage over time **is** a bit pointless, even though this "fix" (I feel dirty calling it that) is doing anything but fixing it. > > > > > > > > But yes, I feel without numbers or tooltips, there would for example be no way to tell whether you are causing Burning or Bleeding -> There's no non-lore reason to have both. > > > > > > Not at all true. Different conditions are not put in place for lore reasons, but for gameplay mechanics. If done well, it works amazingly. You have burning doing very high damage per second, but doesn't last very long, allowing for a "bursty" DoT condition. Bleed is a lower damage per second, being the general DoT. Confusion is obviously geared at denying the enemy the chance to use skills, by punishing them quite heavily when they do use skills. Its an entirely different gameplay mechanic to a simple DoT. Similarly, torment was put in game to punish players for trying to outmaneuver you (there's a reason it was originally given to Necros). > > > > > > These conditions are different for a reason. Simplifying them to a single condition would be disastrous mechanics wise. > > > > Yes, but confusion completely loses its identity in PvE. PvE enemies behave the same regardless of whether confusion is in play. It loses its control function and becomes only damage - and poor damage at that! > > That's a different problem, one that Anet had solved by raising confusions passive tick damage in PvE. It was probably too high yes, confusion, and torment to some extent, are clearly conditions that are aimed at a PvP context, not a PvE one, so having confusion deal at least as much damage as bleed each tick was probably too high. But that doesn't change the fact that confusion functioned differently from a pure DoT for a reason, and homogenizing all damaging conditions to be the same would be awful. Prior to the confusion nerf, condi Mirage in PvE was right where it should have been: Among the top damage dealers, but with limited group utility relative to chrono. So define "awful". Right now, I'd say confusion in PvE is pretty awful. Previously, as I said, it functioned perfectly well. So, if by "homogenizing" you mean to any extent whatsoever (e.g. pre-nerf confusion's bleed tick + on skill use effect), then I disagree. Although I can certainly agree that literally making all conditions exactly the same is not a good solution! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > @"Carighan.6758" said: > > > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > > Having a single damaging condition would be awful. > > > > > > > > > > For lore-purposes, yes. But functionally there's no issue with them all working the exact same way. > > > > > > > > > > I really think the blinds-on test is good for finding out whether having an extra design element makes sense: Taking away all indicators of the special nature of something, would a player still be able to infer it? If no, there's **probably** no reason to have it. Cut as many aspects away as possible, see when core gameplay falters, then take one step back. > > > > > > > > > > In this case, having 4+ conditions which all provide "just" damage over time **is** a bit pointless, even though this "fix" (I feel dirty calling it that) is doing anything but fixing it. > > > > > > > > > > But yes, I feel without numbers or tooltips, there would for example be no way to tell whether you are causing Burning or Bleeding -> There's no non-lore reason to have both. > > > > > > > > Not at all true. Different conditions are not put in place for lore reasons, but for gameplay mechanics. If done well, it works amazingly. You have burning doing very high damage per second, but doesn't last very long, allowing for a "bursty" DoT condition. Bleed is a lower damage per second, being the general DoT. Confusion is obviously geared at denying the enemy the chance to use skills, by punishing them quite heavily when they do use skills. Its an entirely different gameplay mechanic to a simple DoT. Similarly, torment was put in game to punish players for trying to outmaneuver you (there's a reason it was originally given to Necros). > > > > > > > > These conditions are different for a reason. Simplifying them to a single condition would be disastrous mechanics wise. > > > > > > Yes, but confusion completely loses its identity in PvE. PvE enemies behave the same regardless of whether confusion is in play. It loses its control function and becomes only damage - and poor damage at that! > > > > That's a different problem, one that Anet had solved by raising confusions passive tick damage in PvE. It was probably too high yes, confusion, and torment to some extent, are clearly conditions that are aimed at a PvP context, not a PvE one, so having confusion deal at least as much damage as bleed each tick was probably too high. But that doesn't change the fact that confusion functioned differently from a pure DoT for a reason, and homogenizing all damaging conditions to be the same would be awful. > > WTH? It wasn't too high. Mirage pre-feb patch was not even the top DPS spec. How would confusion or torment be too high in PvE when the top DPS specs in raiding used neither? Maybe because those classes don't even have access to confusion? Come on now man..... Having the same base damage as bleed, and then able to spike higher when enemies used skills was _probably_ too high for confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carighan.6758 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > Having the same base damage as bleed, and then able to spike higher when enemies used skills was _probably_ too high for confusion. Maybe. But in lieu of actual balancing effort in GW2, I'll take whatever is "close enough" to balance-able. Which the new confusion just isn't, and the old one was. :disappointed: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levetty.1279 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > > @"Carighan.6758" said: > > > > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > > > Having a single damaging condition would be awful. > > > > > > > > > > > > For lore-purposes, yes. But functionally there's no issue with them all working the exact same way. > > > > > > > > > > > > I really think the blinds-on test is good for finding out whether having an extra design element makes sense: Taking away all indicators of the special nature of something, would a player still be able to infer it? If no, there's **probably** no reason to have it. Cut as many aspects away as possible, see when core gameplay falters, then take one step back. > > > > > > > > > > > > In this case, having 4+ conditions which all provide "just" damage over time **is** a bit pointless, even though this "fix" (I feel dirty calling it that) is doing anything but fixing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > But yes, I feel without numbers or tooltips, there would for example be no way to tell whether you are causing Burning or Bleeding -> There's no non-lore reason to have both. > > > > > > > > > > Not at all true. Different conditions are not put in place for lore reasons, but for gameplay mechanics. If done well, it works amazingly. You have burning doing very high damage per second, but doesn't last very long, allowing for a "bursty" DoT condition. Bleed is a lower damage per second, being the general DoT. Confusion is obviously geared at denying the enemy the chance to use skills, by punishing them quite heavily when they do use skills. Its an entirely different gameplay mechanic to a simple DoT. Similarly, torment was put in game to punish players for trying to outmaneuver you (there's a reason it was originally given to Necros). > > > > > > > > > > These conditions are different for a reason. Simplifying them to a single condition would be disastrous mechanics wise. > > > > > > > > Yes, but confusion completely loses its identity in PvE. PvE enemies behave the same regardless of whether confusion is in play. It loses its control function and becomes only damage - and poor damage at that! > > > > > > That's a different problem, one that Anet had solved by raising confusions passive tick damage in PvE. It was probably too high yes, confusion, and torment to some extent, are clearly conditions that are aimed at a PvP context, not a PvE one, so having confusion deal at least as much damage as bleed each tick was probably too high. But that doesn't change the fact that confusion functioned differently from a pure DoT for a reason, and homogenizing all damaging conditions to be the same would be awful. > > > > WTH? It wasn't too high. Mirage pre-feb patch was not even the top DPS spec. How would confusion or torment be too high in PvE when the top DPS specs in raiding used neither? > > Maybe because those classes don't even have access to confusion? Come on now man..... > > Having the same base damage as bleed, and then able to spike higher when enemies used skills was _probably_ too high for confusion. What are you talking about? Confusion did too much damage because it was usable in PVE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belishine.7493 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 i understand that confuion in pvp as a dot was realy bad but confusion as a burst in pve is the same way as it being a dot in pvp to me it just seems like you are just messing up mes for no reason and not thinking on how its afection all areas of the game at all you realy need to think hard on every little change you make to a mes becouse as a mes we have low dps and that change just make confusion a junk condi in pve and a good one in pvp. it the stuff like this that frustrats meany players that play mes but make the other classes laugh at us when this stuff happens and its just hurting mes all around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > > @"Carighan.6758" said: > > > > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > > > Having a single damaging condition would be awful. > > > > > > > > > > > > For lore-purposes, yes. But functionally there's no issue with them all working the exact same way. > > > > > > > > > > > > I really think the blinds-on test is good for finding out whether having an extra design element makes sense: Taking away all indicators of the special nature of something, would a player still be able to infer it? If no, there's **probably** no reason to have it. Cut as many aspects away as possible, see when core gameplay falters, then take one step back. > > > > > > > > > > > > In this case, having 4+ conditions which all provide "just" damage over time **is** a bit pointless, even though this "fix" (I feel dirty calling it that) is doing anything but fixing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > But yes, I feel without numbers or tooltips, there would for example be no way to tell whether you are causing Burning or Bleeding -> There's no non-lore reason to have both. > > > > > > > > > > Not at all true. Different conditions are not put in place for lore reasons, but for gameplay mechanics. If done well, it works amazingly. You have burning doing very high damage per second, but doesn't last very long, allowing for a "bursty" DoT condition. Bleed is a lower damage per second, being the general DoT. Confusion is obviously geared at denying the enemy the chance to use skills, by punishing them quite heavily when they do use skills. Its an entirely different gameplay mechanic to a simple DoT. Similarly, torment was put in game to punish players for trying to outmaneuver you (there's a reason it was originally given to Necros). > > > > > > > > > > These conditions are different for a reason. Simplifying them to a single condition would be disastrous mechanics wise. > > > > > > > > Yes, but confusion completely loses its identity in PvE. PvE enemies behave the same regardless of whether confusion is in play. It loses its control function and becomes only damage - and poor damage at that! > > > > > > That's a different problem, one that Anet had solved by raising confusions passive tick damage in PvE. It was probably too high yes, confusion, and torment to some extent, are clearly conditions that are aimed at a PvP context, not a PvE one, so having confusion deal at least as much damage as bleed each tick was probably too high. But that doesn't change the fact that confusion functioned differently from a pure DoT for a reason, and homogenizing all damaging conditions to be the same would be awful. > > > > WTH? It wasn't too high. Mirage pre-feb patch was not even the top DPS spec. How would confusion or torment be too high in PvE when the top DPS specs in raiding used neither? > > Maybe because those classes don't even have access to confusion? Come on now man..... > > Having the same base damage as bleed, and then able to spike higher when enemies used skills was _probably_ too high for confusion. ......Renegade uses torment, which is basically a better form of confusion since it does the same damage as bleed (even more, due to the revenant trait that increases its efefctiveness), and it triggers all the time since the vast majority of bosses move on top for bonus damage. Firebrand and soulbeast both use burning damage, which is basically a bleed on steroids. So, no, a condition being stronger than bleed is no excuse to nerf it. If you bother to check, the only bleed centric condition spec is necromancer and that's why they suck so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > > > @"Carighan.6758" said: > > > > > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > > > > Having a single damaging condition would be awful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For lore-purposes, yes. But functionally there's no issue with them all working the exact same way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I really think the blinds-on test is good for finding out whether having an extra design element makes sense: Taking away all indicators of the special nature of something, would a player still be able to infer it? If no, there's **probably** no reason to have it. Cut as many aspects away as possible, see when core gameplay falters, then take one step back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In this case, having 4+ conditions which all provide "just" damage over time **is** a bit pointless, even though this "fix" (I feel dirty calling it that) is doing anything but fixing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But yes, I feel without numbers or tooltips, there would for example be no way to tell whether you are causing Burning or Bleeding -> There's no non-lore reason to have both. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not at all true. Different conditions are not put in place for lore reasons, but for gameplay mechanics. If done well, it works amazingly. You have burning doing very high damage per second, but doesn't last very long, allowing for a "bursty" DoT condition. Bleed is a lower damage per second, being the general DoT. Confusion is obviously geared at denying the enemy the chance to use skills, by punishing them quite heavily when they do use skills. Its an entirely different gameplay mechanic to a simple DoT. Similarly, torment was put in game to punish players for trying to outmaneuver you (there's a reason it was originally given to Necros). > > > > > > > > > > > > These conditions are different for a reason. Simplifying them to a single condition would be disastrous mechanics wise. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but confusion completely loses its identity in PvE. PvE enemies behave the same regardless of whether confusion is in play. It loses its control function and becomes only damage - and poor damage at that! > > > > > > > > That's a different problem, one that Anet had solved by raising confusions passive tick damage in PvE. It was probably too high yes, confusion, and torment to some extent, are clearly conditions that are aimed at a PvP context, not a PvE one, so having confusion deal at least as much damage as bleed each tick was probably too high. But that doesn't change the fact that confusion functioned differently from a pure DoT for a reason, and homogenizing all damaging conditions to be the same would be awful. > > > > > > WTH? It wasn't too high. Mirage pre-feb patch was not even the top DPS spec. How would confusion or torment be too high in PvE when the top DPS specs in raiding used neither? > > > > Maybe because those classes don't even have access to confusion? Come on now man..... > > > > Having the same base damage as bleed, and then able to spike higher when enemies used skills was _probably_ too high for confusion. > > ......Renegade uses torment, which is basically a better form of confusion since it does the same damage as bleed (even more, due to the revenant trait that increases its efefctiveness), and it triggers all the time since the vast majority of bosses move on top for bonus damage. > > Firebrand and soulbeast both use burning damage, which is basically a bleed on steroids. > > So, no, a condition being stronger than bleed is no excuse to nerf it. > > If you bother to check, the only bleed centric condition spec is necromancer and that's why they suck so much. You asked me why those builds don't use confusion, and I answered your question. Now you act as if I was saying something different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now