Pvp/Wvw renegade CIVIL discussion

[arnitheking.8427]

I'm writing this to highlight everything that (imo.) should probably be looked at for renegade if it is to be used in (high level) wvw/pvp. Would love some constructive feedback from other people, let me know what you think

 

-In wvw, renegade sometimes sees play due to the alacrity it provides and 1 of the gm trait it has (and potentially the last minor), but the legend that comes with it is not useful at all as the summons get destroyed instantly in all the aoe spam. It's extremely unfortunate to have what is most likely the main profession mechanic locked out of a gamemode because of that (additionally, it just clutters up screens more due to it being targetable and having an hp bar)

-One of the 3 utility kalla skills in completely useless in power builds, it only applies bleeds and it uses your value for condi damage, it's kind of weird, especially since revenant only has 3 utility skills per type instead of 4 like other classes do. I think this skill should be changed is such a way that it can be used for power builds without affecting pve renegade

-The elite skill has an inital cost, a long cast time, and a draining cost. I believe that is too much and the cast time should be reduced by "quite a lot" in pvp/wvw

-Icerazor is just an odd skill altogether, it randomly targets enemies if multiple enemies are nearby and it doesnt apply chill? I get that the corruption trait would cause it to apply lots of torment too but I dont even think it would be that strong even with the trait..

-Darkrazors daring is actually useful, and so is the healing skill!

 

-In general, almost all skills have a 3/4 sec cast time, it's way too slow, especially on shortbow skills. Shortbow should be a quick aggressive weapon, and since it lacks any defensive skills and has low range, it should at least be fast and reliable

-Shortbow is still extremely clunky to use, buffing damage numbers in wvw and pvp is nice, but it doesnt change the fact that it is very slow. As mentioned above, cast times are too high, but the skills themselves arent reliable either. The "reverse-shotgun" (skill 3) principle is interesting in theory, allowing you to maximize damage on your opponent at a specific distance, but it simply isnt good in pvp. In wvw it would be ok-ish if condi renegade was ever played over power rev (which completely dominates in this meta imho), but it is virtually impossible to hit on a target in a realistic setting in pvp. Personally I think the skill should be reworked such that it reaches a long focal line isntead of a single focal point (some form of parabolic projectile trajectory converging into a line) (also cast time should be lowered drastically I think)

-Shortbow 4 has a weird delay in addition to a somewhat long cast time for a shortbow skill, causing it to be somewhat unreliable. additionally it can't be cast outside of a very narrow angle in front of the player. This is really weird imo., if the LoS issue was fixed it could at least be used for kiting, but now it's slow AND you have to face your opponent(s)

-Skill 5 is good

-Skill 2 seems to randomly miss at times, but it isn't terrible, mostly due to the fact that it can be cast while running away or to the side.

-Autoattack is fine

 

-f2 is fine

-f3 is again, frustratingly slow and not that great altogether, but it's not absolutely terrible

-f4 is boring for pvp renegade (and not used basically), useful for wvw renegade though. In pvp, putting a stunbreak on it would fit with the skill imo. and could help renegade a bit.

 

-The traits aren't terrible but the first line of traits is not very useful as you will cap kallas fervor permanently reaslistically, even in pvp, but they are not terrible, only a bit boring

-All minor traits seems to have to do with fury, which I think is odd since invo is the traitline I associate with fury. Rev in general has easy access to fury, and giving it additional fury in the renegade traitline feels a bit redundant, but it's just my opinion

-The might from vindication could be a bit longer (at least in pvp/wvw), and a cd reduction for citadel bombardment could be slapped on there imo.

 

That's all I can think of atm. I think I would really enjoy renegade if I could actually use its mechanics reliably in high end pvp/wvw. Imo. the skills look great and the design overall is neat, but it's held back by its clunkiness and weird functionality

 

cheers

[Rasp Sabreblade.5421]

First off - these are the changes I believe would fix some of the issues with 2 of the legends:

 

Each legend should have a specific F2 ability.

Glint should use the ammo skill system, with the up keep being the F3. Whereas, renegade should be the upkeep skills which are mobile AoE, because they offer more buffs to allies and a minor amount of conditions to foes.

This would fix both specializations in PvP/WvW and under water all at one shot.

 

Shortbow:

#2 & #3 skill projectiles should track enemies, similar to the scepter #1 skill for guardian.

#3 skill should fire randomly from 7 different places, but each has a 1/8 - 1/4 second delay from the previous shot

#4 should add a slow in the field (could live without this one if #5 (below) happened)

#5 should have 3 wave

 

Utilities:

Remove the cast time

Ice Razor should be chill, not slow.

 

The last one is - every legend needs 5 utilities (not 3 - I am not including the heal or elite) and a new generic set of skills that fall under invocation.

[otto.5684]

There is not much value in renegade discussions anymore. It has already been beaten to death. Anet refuses to do any monitoring or listen to any feedback. The renegade recent changes are like blindly throwing darts. I have zero interest in engaging in a discussion with arrogant , uninformed and/or clueless devs. Providing any additional feedback is a waste of our time.

 

Next patch they will just increase SB to torment or bleed damage by 10%. Good luck, renegade maybe useable after 50 patches.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

My main beef is how the trait lines are and how they are too focused and not general. Like the salvation line provides no benefit outside of ventari, and ventari is useless unless fully specced into healing. The class is too rigid and it takes the fun out of making new builds

[arnitheking.8427]

> @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> My main beef is how the trait lines are and how they are too focused and not general. Like the salvation line provides no benefit outside of ventari, and ventari is useless unless fully specced into healing. The class is too rigid and it takes the fun out of making new builds

 

Yeah, +1 to that.. and the fact that we only have 1 condi weaponset if not specced into renegade also annoys me.. I wish they would do like the did with mesmer and just rethink/redesign everything for the next balance patch. Would be amazing

[Klypto.1703]

My suggestion is that they do a switch aroo with the f1 f2 f3 f4 skills. Make them work like shades do because you have plenty of players who are still playing scourge which is much much more than those trying to play renegade. Then just have some way to have the heal and elite working like that as well and then problem solved. Since we know scourge was playable in this fashion long before any changes came to them.

 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

They are never going to give Icerazor chill unless it's super limited or they rework the skill entirely. The potential for 20 stacks of torment in 6 seconds is insane and that doesn't even include the torment from crit (which I usually get about 5-7stacks of across the entire cast.)

 

Ways to make icerazor better in its current form without breaking it:

 

1) give it and all summons 1-4 stacks of stability on summon. Increase health.

2) give it a combo field (and maybe other summons, darkrazor could get smoke or dark, etc. ). Icerazor can have an ice field. The potential for chilling bolts/chilling projectiles/frost armor would be nice and reward higher skilled play.

3) give it a 3 target aoe cleave on its bolts. could be 180 or maybe even 240.

 

Also should make Razorclaw a stunbreak since it's completely useless in pvp otherwise.

[Jack Skywalker.5674]

> @"Klypto.1703" said:

> My suggestion is that they do a switch aroo with the f1 f2 f3 f4 skills. Make them work like shades do because you have plenty of players who are still playing scourge which is much much more than those trying to play renegade. Then just have some way to have the heal and elite working like that as well and then problem solved. Since we know scourge was playable in this fashion long before any changes came to them.

>

 

I like this,but it would Nerf Renegade Ventari's ability to spam Alacrity. As it is now Ventari stance has 1 source of spreading alacrity. With Renegade you gain 1 ability to spam alacrity regardless of your stance.

[Klypto.1703]

> @"Jack Skywalker.5674" said:

> > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > My suggestion is that they do a switch aroo with the f1 f2 f3 f4 skills. Make them work like shades do because you have plenty of players who are still playing scourge which is much much more than those trying to play renegade. Then just have some way to have the heal and elite working like that as well and then problem solved. Since we know scourge was playable in this fashion long before any changes came to them.

> >

>

> I like this,but it would Nerf Renegade Ventari's ability to spam Alacrity. As it is now Ventari stance has 1 source of spreading alacrity. With Renegade you gain 1 ability to spam alacrity regardless of your stance.

 

For me as long as it has the ability to use Kalla in wvw and pvp I wouldn't care if it had alacrity or not. At this point I just would like to be able to use it which right now especially in wvw its unusable.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> There is not much value in renegade discussions anymore. It has already been beaten to death. Anet refuses to do any monitoring or listen to any feedback. The renegade recent changes are like blindly throwing darts. I have zero interest in engaging in a discussion with urgent, uninformed and/or clueless devs. Providing any additional feedback is a waste of our time.

>

> Next patch they will just increase SB to torment or bleed damage by 10%. Good luck, renegade maybe useable after 50 patches.

Let's hope it is on their next "biggest mechanics revamps so far" list

[messiah.1908]

as i suggested before

warbands need to have fields like soulcleave and also lower cast time to 0.5 sec

 

razerclaw - should add a 15% more direct dmg to allies inside its area. than pve,pvp,wvw would be fine skill to use. combo field smoke

icerazor - need to have ice field. than you have the chance to put chill and torment and it wont be op maybe 2 stacks maybe

darkrazor - should be dark field

breakrazor - should be light field (water will be too strong)

 

all warbands should be immune to cc but killable.

 

[Exalted Quality.8534]

Just forget it. They are intent to leaving renegades to be utter garbage in competitive play. They’ve now had several chances to improve their lot and haven’t done anything. Save your keystrokes and expectations. Renegades will always be trash outside of PvE. Hopefully, they will at least extend the half-baked energy reduction and damage improvements to PvE.

[arnitheking.8427]

heh I agree they haven't really done much for renegade until now but let's not be all doom and gloom. With some luck they'll decide to rework renegade next in a thorough fashion like they did with mesmer (those changes were good imo.). I have to say though, the next balance patch will definitely leave a very bitter taste if renegade remains as clunky as it is now tbh

[Canakun.8031]

In my view, there are two main things that contribute to Revenant being impractical in PvP and to a lesser extent WvW.

First is the energy system. Thief works with their similar system because it's only their weapon skills that use energy. Their utilities are on cooldowns (like revs) but aren't restricted to the use of energy. Making this change for revenant would be the first step, in my opinion.

Upkeep skills don't need to change (impossible odds, embrace the darkness, etc.) Leave those as upkeep skills because it plays into the class in a good way. But all the other utility skills should be free from any energy cost, as they already have a cooldown.

 

Second is the legend system. It's far, far too restrictive in PvP. Any semblance of a build right now needs to take Mallyx for the condition management. I tried power herald in PvP for a couple of hours, and the only games I won I was taking glint/mallyx, because the resistance was far too important.

I don't know how it would be changed, but there needs to be some system put in place where our legend skills can be swapped in and out regardless of what legend we're using. Whether that means we turn our legends into passive effects, or what, I don't know. But currently the legend system is the most restrictive aspect of the class and IMO contributes a lot to why this class is so underpowered.

[VixusIrine.9013]

As much as I like Renegade the warband skills are just really weirdly designed, I think for the sake of being different to other specs. They're in this middle ground between being a well and an actual minion and I don't think it works out too well. Dunno if Anet will ever do it but I think the warband needs to be reworked altogether into either just removing the aspect of warband members being npcs and making them into fancy looking wells that apply effects or actually make them into being like Necro minions. Give them the ability to follow you around, perform basic attacks and being able to activate their respective abilities with energy and cooldown costs of course. Switching legends will de-summon them too. Either make them just AoE effects or turn Renegade into a minionmancer.

 

But like I said I doubt Anet will go that far to rework the spec like that. If anything I hope for some of the Renegade traits to get fixed up, especially All for one. As it stands it's pretty crappy compared to Heart piercer and Sudden Reversal. I'd replace the protection with a single stack of Stability on the warband member and nearby allies.

[Exalted Quality.8534]

I believe revenants are the only class with skills that are stronger in PvP than they are in PvE...if this isn't a poorly thought out class, idk what is. They need to stop messing around and make this class worth playing again. Stop making stupid changes to stuff that works. Condi renegade is now slipping out of favor because ANET failed to zero in on the problem classes and did a blanket nerf to condi rev which was in a nice spot pre-nerf. I'm not surprised at all, but these devs are bad.

[Doctor.1384]

> @"Canakun.8031" said:

> In my view, there are two main things that contribute to Revenant being impractical in PvP and to a lesser extent WvW.

> First is the energy system. Thief works with their similar system because it's only their weapon skills that use energy. Their utilities are on cooldowns (like revs) but aren't restricted to the use of energy. Making this change for revenant would be the first step, in my opinion.

> Upkeep skills don't need to change (impossible odds, embrace the darkness, etc.) Leave those as upkeep skills because it plays into the class in a good way. But all the other utility skills should be free from any energy cost, as they already have a cooldown.

>

> Second is the legend system. It's far, far too restrictive in PvP. Any semblance of a build right now needs to take Mallyx for the condition management. I tried power herald in PvP for a couple of hours, and the only games I won I was taking glint/mallyx, because the resistance was far too important.

> I don't know how it would be changed, but there needs to be some system put in place where our legend skills can be swapped in and out regardless of what legend we're using. Whether that means we turn our legends into passive effects, or what, I don't know. But currently the legend system is the most restrictive aspect of the class and IMO contributes a lot to why this class is so underpowered.

 

It makes more sense to have the utility and elite skills have only energy costs and for the weapon skills to only have cooldowns since legends are our proffession mechanic.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Kalla spirits will remain absolute trash in PvP without a serious rework. They are immensely easy to outplay by anyone with basic knowledge of the game.

 

If anet wants a viable build for Renegade to exist they should instead focus on the community created Shiro/Jalis Power renegade build that has been going around. It's a "fun" build that could be viable with a few simple trait tweaks. Hell, even something as simple as "Kallas fervor now grants 2% lifesteal per stack" would make it playable and basically not effect PvE at all.

 

 

[arnitheking.8427]

Maybe you have a point, my problem with the shiro/jalis build is that it's basically the regular rev build but you pick rene traitline instead of herald (and thus replace glint with jalis).. It doesn't really change the playstyle that much. Personally, I'd love for condi rev to be "viable" in high end pvp, but maybe power rev will remain the only truly good option forever, who knows

[messiah.1908]

every class need 3 viable builds to play for each game segments

 

support - with boons, corrupt, buff, heal, res, bunk

power - direct dmg or sustain dmg

condi - condi dmg

 

atm guard has it all

warrior has 3 (support and 2 power)

rev got maybe 1 power

 

ranger has 2 (common 1 support)

thief has 5 (power s/d d/p p/p condi d/d s/d)

engi has 2 (power)

 

ele has 2

mesmer has 3 (power ,condi support(maybe)

necro has 2 (1 condi 1 power less common)

 

rev must get a change fast or this class will be lost forever. the design lost its unique . yes we have nrg system but hardly can use it outside herald.

i think all cd should be deleted and should be only nrg system

we should able to activate skills like thief but fro the front as warrior/paragon

nrg is gain through attacking only (like ranger astral force)