Joko is an average Necro, great Scourge.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

It is implied https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Akesi_Xuni that his unique rise to power was through the invention of Scourge magic. How much impact did it have? Is he a powerful Necromancer or just a smart one?

 

Part 01:The pretense of an army, one trick pony, and lies- the politically powerful pioneer

 

* A Scourge that exploits souls instead of sand could appear to have bound hundreds of minions to his will while actually just be instantly influencing the small number who contradict him. He could have an army of grunts commanded by masterless Awakened Necros that have learned helplessness in defying him. In this way he might seem to rival Zhaitan but actually be weaker than a common Lich.

* Elite specializations do not require mastery in other sub-disciplines. Was Joko actually weakened by imprisonment? Can dumber Necromancers be blamed for the variety in Awakened intelligence? Or is Joko actually just very talented at Scourge magic and bad at everything else.

* Does he seem like someone who might accidentally become an Lich then rely on a secret technique to appear much more accomplished than he actually is? Who might rely on his ability to manipulate others and then take credit for the result?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

You're making one major mistake.

 

Joko isn't *solely* a scourge. Just like a player who specializes in scourge doesn't lose their core necromancer skills, nor would Joko be incapable of using other necromancy skills he knows.

 

In GW1, we saw him using [blood magic,](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Palawa_Joko#The_Battle_of_Jahai) which is nothing like Scourge, as well as [advanced minion mastery skills](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Palawa_Joko#The_Norn_Fighting_Tournament) that no player could utilize (only [another lich](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Zoldark_the_Unholy) had a similar skills). And to continue what you began by using limited mechanics to represent power in lore, in [one point of GW1, Joko's entire skillbar consisted of seven elite skills](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Palawa_Joko#Scarred_Psyche).

 

It should also be noted that, in lore, learning secondary professions or changing professions is still a thing. Even outside of Rytlock's profession change. It's just considered not worth the effort by the vast majority, and prevented in mechanics for game balance reason (same as why players can only use one elite specialization at a time - it's not lore, it's mechanical balance).

[Dewsitine.3645]

For me, it seems hard to tell since I have not played the gw 1 expansions and only read through the wiki and the view interactions with him in the current story. Given his past actions, I would not believe it would be above him to not use any "dirty" trick with an example being the water diverted to other areas to weaken his enemies. He has no problem in lying too. The murals in the vabbi's school grounds to the altered history/battle of him versus the other and all the way to speakers systems that are always blaring words that big bother is watching. I think he does what your number 1 has suggested. Awakened people for grunt work that have no sign of brain activity in a sense and only bound the ones that have any personality. Though, a person can argue is that his way of awakening a person would also include bounding them to his words which I think would be on simple program in the mind always obey and follow Joko. To solidify more, he would instill awe and fear in the living as well as some in the dead.

 

In a short way, I partially believe number one is that he may have or took and used the ritual that is the trademark of making an awakened person with a few alters to include a simple phrase that gets implemented to allow him to control subordinates like a sleeper agent during the cold war. I also think he is tough as a regular lich or maybe a little bit stronger with the fact that they just imprisoned him instead of killing him. He is smart for making behind the scenes person and has a great understanding as I assume if the ritual he uses, whether or not he made it himself is another question, would need some deep know-how unlike your run of the mill minion from the dead.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> You're making one major mistake.

>

> Joko isn't *solely* a scourge. Just like a player who specializes in scourge doesn't lose their core necromancer skills, nor would Joko be incapable of using other necromancy skills he knows.

>

 

I think you misread the post. I said he was a Necromancer, and a Lich. Also, in game mechanics are irrelevant to this discussion, especially Gw1 as this appears to be an active retcon.

 

The rising implication is that Joko is an average or even lesser Necromancer who was accidentally transformed into a Lich and discovered a rare technique which he used to decieve the world.

 

* The concept of trials for the Awakened are to hide his incompetence in reanimation.

* The army he "commands" is actually a chain of undead Scourges. He maintains the illusion by pulling the strings of a few and keeping the rest in ignorance.

* Koss thinks he escaped Joko's bond but he was masterless the whole time. The lieutenants actively force cooperation using Scourge magic.

* Joko wasn't rendered powerless by imprisonment, he was rendered mute. When he dies the bureaucracy will be exposed even further than it already has. There will be no Awakened that continue calling out his name like the minons of a fallen Elder Dragon.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > You're making one major mistake.

> >

> > Joko isn't *solely* a scourge. Just like a player who specializes in scourge doesn't lose their core necromancer skills, nor would Joko be incapable of using other necromancy skills he knows.

> >

>

> I think you misread the post. I said he was a Necromancer, and a Lich. Also, in game mechanics are irrelevant to this discussion, especially Gw1 as this appears to be an active retcon.

 

Your post is suggesting that his power is solely via being a Scourge. Nowhere in Akesi's dialogue is this indicated, implied, or hinted at. Nor is this dialogue a retcon as we have no time of reference for when Joko became a Scourge. The name of it, in fact, implies after he was given the title "Scourge of Vabbi" given that this necromantic specialization is named after that title.

 

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> The rising implication is that Joko is an average or even lesser Necromancer who was accidentally transformed into a Lich and discovered a rare technique which he used to decieve the world.

 

Where? Where is this **ever** implied? The dialogue you're citing as a source even states, in **what you yourself quote** that Joko is "so uniquely powerful". Even if his teachings were unique, he wouldn't be called powerful if he was an average or lesser necromancer.

 

I have seen a grand total of **nothing** that suggests he's a weak necromancer. His defeat by Turai showed that he's weak one on one in martial combat (back then, I should add, when by all accounts he wasn't a Scourge yet), but other than Turai - a legendary warrior - the only one to defeat him would be a fallen god.

 

He even killed Koss, Tahlkora, and Lonai. All powerful fighters in their own right. Hell, Tahlkora herself *outright states that it was Joko himself who Awakened her.* And that *he* removed said Awakening because she could not be controlled. Tahlkora's own dialogue directly denies your suggestion entirely.

 

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> * The concept of trials for the Awakened are to hide his incompetence in reanimation.

> * The army he "commands" is actually a chain of undead Scourges. He maintains the illusion by pulling the strings of a few and keeping the rest in ignorance.

> * Koss thinks he escaped Joko's bond but he was masterless the whole time. The lieutenants actively force cooperation using Scourge magic.

> * Joko wasn't rendered powerless by imprisonment, he was rendered mute. When he dies the bureaucracy will be exposed even further than it already has. There will be no Awakened that continue calling out his name like the minons of a fallen Elder Dragon.

 

* No single person can, nor would, spend all his time doing nothing but making Awakened. Obviously he's going to delegate tasks. Every ruler does. Joko wants to enjoy being ruler, not be driven like a slave to appease his subjects.

* Scourges are not minions masters. They don't deal with minions at all.

* There is nothing to suggest this. The only Awakened unable to defy Joko's commands was Tahlkora, who was touched by Kormir. Koss outright states that he had to follow commands until he tricked them into isolating him in the cave. Furthermore, again, Scourges are not minion masters. They do not command undead via Scourge magic.

* It's never actually been confirmed that Joko was weakened from imprisonment. It's clear that his army was fractured the way it was because they were not hearing his commands. This statement actually contradicts your third point. If Joko being rendered mute is what left his army in shambles, then Koss was indeed having to distance himself from commands to avoid following them.

[Castigator.3470]

That is an interesting discussion. Mostly, because Joko absolutely IS the type to portay himself stronger than he actually is. Remember, his propaganda claims he defeated Zhaitan and Mordremoth, moves the sun across the sky, and tries to maintain his image as a god-monarch.

 

Well, he doesn't hold divine power. I'd put him below depowered Balthazar in terms of raw power, but we all have to admit, that he's neither weak, nor dumb.

He knows how to get the most leverage out of his power.

 

To come back to the tree structure of Joko's undead. If undead/construct mastery does work in a recursive way, then of course he can set up his undead state so that he controls his judges, who control the common undead.

[ilyas](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ilyas "Ilyas") actually tells us. The Judges are appointed by Joko himself. The recursive minion tree is set up. The dialogue of Akesi Xuni hints, that the scourge ability to use shades is one important puzzle piece. This allows him to control his undead.

 

But this would have been for nought, if he had to use necromancer minions. The necromantic flesh golems don't seem to be entities of their own, but rather a marionette that is animated with magic, leaking said magic as they deteriorate, and otherwise just an extension of the original necromancer's will. Building an army of those puppets is inefficient. He needs something better.

 

And this is where the campaign mission "The way forward" comes in. The process to creating Awakened is similar to the creation of Exalted, or Forged.

Joko used his scourge abilities to lure souls from the afterlife to his domain, putting them into their old bodies. This way, the magic leakage problem is circumvented, we have created an undead with its own soul. That undead being is still bound by Joko's magic.

That doesn't necessarily mean the awakened are immortal, the Boneyard reminds us, that even awakened need some form of mainenance, lest their bodies fail and the soul goes back into the mists. It may be recalled, once the body is repaired, but for the moment, it's free again.

 

Of course Joko knew of the soul manipulation long before he took Balthazar to Kesho, the story mission explains how forged are created, but using the same principle on a corpse might yield an awakened.

 

So that might be how he got his army. That leaves Joko himself. He IS powerful, even though I may be inclined to discount the "Scarred Psyche" event, since it was a halloween event in the underworld. Maybe there is some exploit (lore) that allows necromancers to fill their normal slots with elite skills. But even in the battle of Jahai he was no pushover. In fact he already knew how to create awakened.

 

Also, much like liches in traditional fantasy, he's notoriously hard to kill. You can defeat him, put him in a cage in the underworld, but he has the ability to just come back. Something allows him to return. This item, his phylactery, must be destroyed before he can be finally put to rest. Now where would he put his proverbial Infinite Continue Coin?

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > You're making one major mistake.

> > >

> > > Joko isn't *solely* a scourge. Just like a player who specializes in scourge doesn't lose their core necromancer skills, nor would Joko be incapable of using other necromancy skills he knows.

> > >

> >

> > I think you misread the post. I said he was a Necromancer, and a Lich. Also, in game mechanics are irrelevant to this discussion, especially Gw1 as this appears to be an active retcon.

>

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > The rising implication is that Joko is an average or even lesser Necromancer who was accidentally transformed into a Lich and discovered a rare technique which he used to decieve the world.

>

> Even if his teachings were unique, he wouldn't be called powerful if he was an average or lesser necromancer.

> I have seen a grand total of **nothing** that suggests he's a weak necromancer....

 

Apologies I should have explained more. This will take multiple posts but the gist is changes in word choice explaining the timeline of events, and differences between him and other Liches.

 

edit: the explanation is very long and deserves its own post. Will return this conclusion at a later date.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Castigator.3470"

soul manipulation predates magic. More ex tomorrow.

[draxynnic.3719]

@"Castigator.3470"

 

It's generally been an assumption of mine that the regular minions available to PC necromancers, particularly in GW1, are soulless, while the creation of truly sentient undead requires a mix of what in GW1 terms would be ritualism and necromancy: necromancy to animate the body, and ritualism to infuse a soul into it. The existence of Shadow Fiend in GW2 suggests that some ritualist abilities have been absorbed into the necromancer.

 

The scourge playstle and lore has a lot of similarities with the ritualist (an N/Rt, anyway). Shades are essentially their form of spirits - while Akesi calls them "an extension of our power", she may be talking about the purpose they serve rather than what they actually _are_, or she may be shy about saying outright that they're calling the spirits of the dead back to act as conduits. So a large part of the effect of taking the Shade specialisation might be to add more soul-manipulation into the necromancer. If that's the case, then Joko's initial development of this art might be how he was able to create an army of Awakened rather than of regular necrominions.

 

Akesi also mentions that the (renegede) Scourges fled from Joko when they found out what he wanted them to do. My suspicion is that what that was is "creating Awakened". While happy to call on spirits or to create soulless minions, there does seem to be a taboo on creating sentient corporeal undead - possibly because this involves permanently binding the soul (whereas invoking a spirit in the manner that a ritualist or, if I'm right, scourge does is only a temporary conjuration, allowing the spirit to return to their rest shortly after). Those among Palawa's students that didn't flee are probably his delegates in the creation of more Awakened.

[Oglaf.1074]

Joko is merely a second-rate [settra the Imperishable](https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Settra_the_Imperishable "Settra the Imperishable").