Konig Des Todes.2086

> @"The Greyhawk.9107" said: > > @"Fueki.4753" said: > > > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said: > > > Assuming it doesn't get resolved in EoD, the post EoD story could tie up the gods narrative by dealing with whatever Lyssa is up to. > > Why should we deal with whatever Lyssa is up to in the Mists? > > She departed from Tyria with the other gods. > > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said: > > > @"Fueki.4753" said: > > > Why should we deal with whatever Lyssa is up to in the Mists? > > > She departed from Tyria with the other gods. > > When Balthazar dies at the end of Path of Fire he curses all of the gods for betraying him except Lyssa, and Anet has said there is a reason for that. > > > > Given that he was previously using an artifact of Lyssa to disguise himself as Lazarus, his lack of cursing Lyssa alongside the other gods, that the Orrian history scrolls state that Lyssa was the one most connected to mortals, and had to be "commanded" by the other gods to leave mortal towns and go to Arah once it was finished, as well as Anet's confirmation of there being a reason behind Balthazar not cursing Lyssa, its long been suspected that Lyssa is up to something. > > > > Anet has also previously stated that the story of the human gods isn't over yet, which adds further credibility to it. > > Plus, why not deal with Lyssa? A lot of us want to know more about what's going on with the Six. At least so long as they don't turn this Lyssa thread into Abaddon 3.0. Further, it also doesn't need to be Lyssa specifically, but the Six Gods in general. They left the world because of the Elder Dragon threat. With that threat gone, the Six could return. That said, no point in discussing with Sajuuk about their theories. They'll argue that they're right, even when you provide evidence that they're wrong, or even when the story develops counter to their theory.

I'm guessing this is a joke but: the DSD is already awake and causing mayhem, the acryonym came after the _fan_ nickname of deep sea dragon, which originally comes as a short hand for "dragon from the deepest sea", which is where the krait lived. That said, points for not trying to tie in Lyssa. Or "Mother". As to the stars, quick clarification: > since the death of zaithan(the stars that vanish in the orr telescope after dragons die) The telescope cinematic (though it often bugs) shows the _creation_ of a star, which is presumably based on Kralkatorrik's awakening (or the cycle in general - it's not clarified, but a norn in Hoelbrak comments on how the auroras changed when Jormag woke so presumably each dragon alters the sky). We never saw a star vanish. > @"TeeracK.3601" said: > So many people think of that when it comes to bubbles because he's been described as an unknown horror and having tentacles. Actually, just its minions were described that way. Minus "unknown". The unknown part is just player-side stuff, never mentioned in lore. And furthermore, _every_ Elder Dragon's minions were described as horrors. > There are actually lots of other gods and demons in lovecraft besides just cthulhu. All hail Azathoth, the blind idiot god! Let not he awaken!

> @"Kodama.6453" said: > While it is true that Anet has used names with real life references, at least to my knowledge this doesn't hold true for elder dragons. All of them have original names. Zhaitan -> Shaitan Jormag -> Jormungandr Kralkatorrik -> Krakatoa Mordremoth -> Mordred Primordus -> Primordial While not a 1:1 copy, they're very clear inspirational sources. So could the DSD's name be Sedna? Unlikely. But _based off of_ Sedna? yes.

> @"Hypnowulf.7403" said: > The experience of Jormag's existence—as I had mentioned prior—is defined by Primordus's abuse. They awake first, they prepare for Primordus to chase and hunt them, they're not as powerful as their abuser is so they have to be more clever than them. Your very entry premise is false, because while that is the situation in Icebrood Saga, this is **not** always the case. Case in point: Primordus woke up 50 years prior to Jormag in-between GW1 and GW2. Specifically, Primordus woke up in 1120 AE; Jormag woke up in 1165 AE. Despite this, Primordus did not hunt down Jormag nor prevent it from waking. By all evidence, it could very well be that Jormag is the antagonizer, and it is Primordus that is is stirring in self-defense, so immediately after Jormag woke up, and not the other way around. > At some point in the past, the Spirits broke their vow to Jormag and now they appear to be hellbeng on replacing the dragon fo ice and persuasion. I assume you're basing this off of the conversation between Ryland and Owl in the last DRM. This is exclusive to Owl, and is reflecting the point of Owl's "death" in the years immediately following Jormag's awakening in 1165 AE. It's a well told story that Owl sacrificed herself to allow the norn to survive in their flight south. What was unknown was that, rather than death, what occurred was Owl making a proverbial deal with the proverbial devil (aka Jormag) and then subsequently breaking that deal by sealing herself - and her magic - away. Meanwhile the other Lost Spirits (Ox, Eagle, and Wolverine) made the proverbial deal and didn't break it. The other Spirits of the Wild are completely and wholly separate from this, and this event is a very, very recent event - one that **post-**dates Jormag's awakening and malicious actions. > This can be seen in how they've manipulated norn culture—which I've brought up prior here too, at least I think I did here. They've turned the norn into a race of suicidal kamikaze extremists who believe that if they don't try to throw their life away in the attempt to claim a legend in the frozen North, they aren't and never will be a true norn. I'm not given to trust the Spirits for that reason, oh—and because they eat kids. I don't like that either. And here you show you do not know norn culture, because legends to the norn are nor exclusively combative. If you talk to the various NPCs around Hoelbrak, you will find norn who seek to build a legend by becoming a famous writer or painter, or pre-S1 finale in Lion's Arch there was a dockworker norn who wanted to make his legend in the form of being the greatest dockworker. Legends to norn are not mythic heroes fighting huge monsters. While such are included, what's also included are legends akin to [Paul Bunyon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bunyan) or [John Henry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry_%28folklore%29) who are notably _non-combat_ related legends. There are norn like [Romke](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Captain_Romke) who sought to be famous explorers - comparable to Christopher Columbus or Ferdinand Magellan. So your third premise for your theorycrafting is decidedly false. > There are hints all over the story. The way that Jormag talks of Primordus as "being bound to a monster" is the way that those who've lived with abuse tend to see their only option for freedom. Most people who live in an abusive relationship will seldom call out the abuser as a monster, and will instead put the blame on themselves or third party individuals. Caithe and Faolain is a prime example of a real abusive relationship, where the abuser (Faolain) is never blamed by the abuse (Caithe). Caithe would instead blame third party individuals, such as the centaurs during No Refuge, even when the evidence is clear in front of them that the abuser is to blame. This is especially true in long-term abusive relationships, which would be the case with Jormag and Primordus. If Primordus truly was an abuser, Jormag would not be calling them a monster. Instead, all signs point to Jormag being the abuser, the manipulator who puts the blame on another individual. And this makes your fourth and final stronghold premise for your theory, decidedly false or at least non-conclusive. > There are many in the community who see Jormag as a sociopath, a manipulator, and so on without actually trying to see what's happening from Jormag's perspective. The lack of empathy is surprising to me... I mean, do consider that Jormag even called the invading forces in Bjora Marches monsters for trying to attack and kill a baby—Drakkar—who'd done nothing wrong. In the way that Drakkar acts, it absolutely is a young pup. Lots of pup body language. Drakkar is not innocent. Drakkar spent 250 years spreading whispers to convince people to die in the cold. Did you already forget the whispers in Bjora Marches, the ones _unprovoked_ by interaction? Let me quote: Unknown: You can't trust them. Unknown: Don't you want to give up? Unknown: They want you to fail. Unknown: Kill... Unknown: Kill her... Unknown: Kill him... Unknown: Kill them... Yes, very innocent, prompting people to commit suicide by sitting in the cold, or to kill each other. Drakkar was the one who corrupted Svanir, and turned him from a typical norn into a mass murderer. _Very innocent._ And body language of a pup? I didn't know puppies were inclined to bite and crush things. Or to swim like a shark.

* Ironhammer Line -> No doubt references Jalis Ironhammer, though unclear if it is about the bloodline, defensive line, or something else. * Crystal Fields I figured was in relation to Kralkatorrik or Glint somehow, as we know destroyers had targeted both Aurene and Vlast while they were young; alternatively, there were some crystal-filled rooms unrelated to the Crystal Dragons that exist underground in GW1, and could be tentatively tied to such. * Hard to say, but I feel like this is an easter egg to LotR and the Bridge of Khazad Dum more than anything else. * Third Fortress, hard to place but I'm going to guess that there was a series of stone dwarf fortresses, and this destroyer led the destruction on the third one? Either that, or the name directly refers to Ebonhawke, which is indeed a fortress city. Though how it is "Third" is questionable. * Last Forge is no doubt referencing the forge room we fought that destroyer in itself, being the last active Deldrimor forge (that we know of at least). * Ice Gavel sounds like a judge among Sons of Svanir figures, but that's just word association with gavel. It would make sense if the Sons of Svanir had a judge-like figure in their group, like they had a leader (Fraenir). Would have been more obvious meaning if the guy used a giant hammer in combat though.

> @"Fueki.4753" said: > > @"TeeracK.3601" said: > > Kind of makes me wonder/sad about if we did get Centaur if we could have maybe gotten an easy alternative to the Ambrite Weapon Collection. > > I think Centaurs would have just given the generic vanilla Modniir weapon set, which is available from karma vendors (like the Ebon Vanguard weapons). that_shaman had pulled up the loot table from the gw.dat (it's all in there), and yes, centaurs would have given the modniir set.

> @"Dawdler.8521" said: > I **highly** disagree. It's heavily implied that the Charr did not get the helos to work, it was the union of the species and in that union only the Asura would be able to do it, hardly Norn or Humans: > > *The original prototype was designed by Kailani the Foolhardy, though the prototype never managed to maintain flight. When the Pact was formed, they obtained the plans for Kailani's chopper and improved upon it, making it a working flying vessel* > > The Charr is clever enough to figure out how to make an engine to drive a rotor, but that's not *flight*. They needed Asuran magitech for gyros, which made the Charr helicopter practical. In terms of associated tech, for example the Technomancy Blueprint for Astralaria contain Charr gearboxes, Aetherblade gearboxes, steam cogs and stabilizing gyros. A bit of irony that I am the one who wrote that, but this actually goes off of the general theme of the Pact taking charr tech and creating improved versions. We don't actually know how far the charr got in developing the choppers, and this says *nothing* about gyros which are a lot smaller (smaller = less weight = easier to make flight worthy). Furthermore, there is zero indication of which races assisted in improving what, other than "charr, human, and asura" being attributed to airships. In the cases of airships, choppers, and submarines, the charr created the prototypes for all three alone - and in at least one case, had a _working_ prototype. Given how charr function as a society, I don't think that the Pact would get their hands on _non-working_ prototypes at all from the charr, at that. Which implies that between Fields of Ruins and Straights of Devastation, the charr had *working choppers*. > In addition, we see the appearance of a whirling gyroscope in Rata Novus archeotech collection, which IMO would again heavily imply the gyroscope is Asuran magitech. As far as I know, there is no reference to gyros for the Charr, but if you can find evidence for it go ahead. You do realize that multiple cultures can simultaneously develop similar tech in parallel, right? [EDIT: So I just wiki'd the Astralaria tech you mention. The Stabilizing Gyroscope comes from **Molten Facility,** meaning that is *dredge or charr technology*, and not asuran. Proving that gyroscopes were developed in parallel by at least two (psuedo)isolationist communities - Rata Novus and dredge - or developed in parallel by Rata Novus and charr, depending on how much stolen tech the Molten Alliance had.] Rata Novus having such is actually argument against gyros being asura tech, in my opinion, because _Rata Novus were isolationists and did not share their tech even with other asura._ And as you noted, the scrappers were notworthy of scavenging the Pact fleet - note that "the Pact Fleet" refers to the **airships**, not choppers. So at best, Scrapper would be taking charr ideology to scavenge _charr, human, and asura_ technology. Not "pure asura magitech". Should be noted further that gyros have zero _visual_ magitech in them, and asura tech is _always_ more magical than technological. > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > >I'd beware of saying that it's hardly humans. Humans are specifically noted to have had a role in airships, and it has been noted that there are some areas in which humans are still ahead of either, including harnessing the wind for power or propulsion (something that charr and asura kinda just bypassed). It's entirely possible that humans have had some contributions in the areas of aerodynamics and how to set up control surfaces that neither charr nor asura would have considered. > > >That said, I believe it HAS been explicitly stated that part of what the scrappers were scavenging was asura magitech from the crashed Pact fleet, so there is some asura in there. In the form of charr scavenging and repurposing asura technology, to be sure, but it is in there. > > But we are are talking about the technology specific to the scrapper, not an entire helicopter or airship - the gyros or for example the hammer being able to harness lightning. And as you say... *that* part is Asuran magitech. So my point still stands. > > Whether Charr built the frame of an airship, Norn made the wooden deck and Humans attached little flags to it because they where "helping" is irrelevant. In regards to the lightning hammer bit, we have this charr dialogue: > Dayol Stormwatcher: I have a thought: lightning, whether from the sky or from an elementalist's wand, delivers a physical impact. I believe there's a way to harness that power. > PC: What for? > Dayol Stormwatcher: To replace steam, of course. Steam is so unpredictable. Imagine the possibilities of lightning. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dayol_Stormwatcher So the idea of harnessing lightning is very much established as being charr. There's also brand lightning conductors in the Ascalonian dragonbrand (specifically, NW Fields of Ruin). I don't think there's anything solid that specifies "this or that is specifically asuran tech" in the scrapper. And even if there was _some_ asuratech in the scrapper, there's still none in the Holosmith. > Whether Charr built the frame of an airship, Norn made the wooden deck and Humans attached little flags to it because they where "helping" is irrelevant. Charr did far more than "built the frame". They created the prototype alone: > This craft may have begun as a charr prototype, but it was improved on by the Pact and it takes a keen mind to pilot it. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pilot_Wanni My understanding was that the charr created the engine that make the navigation and propulsion systems function, humans brought in the hot air balloon for non-magic buoyancy, and asura connected it all together with improvements. It would thus be the asura who were "helping", not the other races.

> @"Diak Atoli.2085" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > The mark of a great liar is one that manipulates and lies using the truth.. that is what Jormag does, it doesn't outright lie to you.. it's very sly, perverts the truth and lies by omission and tactics like that so that it can always say things like. > > > (Purely fan based dialogue not from the game) > > > "I never lied to you, I told you the truth.. I just didn't tell you everything because I can't trust you.. not yet, because you're working against me, but I don't blame you.. I understand your fear and your doubt's but you must trust me, I am not your enemy and you will need my help." > > > > > > Lies with the truth.. justifies it's actions.. deflects the blame and calls your actions to question.. sympathises to your situation.. reassures.. and seduces. > > > Jormag is a master at this kind of thing and it's what Jormag has been doing more or less for the entire IBS, trying to get us on it's side by making us think it's on our side. > > > > > > Also Jormag isn't small exactly, so far we've only seen it's head so there's not a large model to go by as of yet but I am still expecting Jormag to be about the length of Kralkatorriks Head and Tail maybe a bit of the neck too in total. > > > That would make Jormag much bigger than Zhaitan's body but not as big as it's wingspan and much thicker than Mordremoth's body but not quite as long. > > > If you want an example and comparison compared to other ED models I made this a while ago to show around about's what I expect Jormag's size to be using a mishmash of kralk parts as a stand in as I expect that better fits to the Lindwurm body type I am expecting Jormag to have. > > >  > > > > > > Also to note as well, Primordus will very very likely be shrunk down when he gets a full body model in Gw2, I do not expect his head from season 3 will define his full body model, it's just too big.. however I do believe he will be the biggest of the Dragons. > > > > That Shaman pulled the model and made a comparison of all the dragons. You can see Jormag’s size between Zhaitan and Mordremoth. > > > > https://mobile.twitter.com/that_shaman/status/1333405006213615619/photo/1 > > Off topic, but by the Six, Zhaitan is tiny... Then one remembers he was still able to raise Orr from the ocean floor. How'd we kill him again? Keep in mind that model of Zhaitan was shrunk from the original intended size (see the model between Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik here: https://imgur.com/cyfT5Vg.jpg) due to the complexity of the model's animations, and the game's engine being unable to handle such on large scale at the time. To compensate, ArenaNet used perspective to make Zhaitan look much bigger in-game. So this model comparison is not 100% accurate to lore, even when excluding the fact Kralkatorrik has three sizes. Also keep in mind that by the time we do fight Zhaitan, he was deprived of magic of the five temples and The Artesian Waters, which if Elder Dragons function the same as dragon minions, would result in Zhaitan becoming smaller (this can even be used to explain why Kralkatorrik shrinks between The Crystal Dragon instance and The End instance, after a big battle of expending magic, but then grows within Dragonfall where he's chomping off a bunch of ley line magic).

> @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > Question(s): why do necromancers utilize Dhuumfire if they don't revere him as a deity? Is Grenth incapable of producing a similar conjuration? Is it related to each of their respective roles / affinities in their godhoods? > > _Are necromancers actually even dirtier than thieves?_ As I alluded to in above, I'm guessing Dhuum is attributed because he's evil, and fire - especially one made out of death magic - would be a volatile, all-consuming thing. It's something you're more attribute to the evil god of death, even if you don't worship the pantheon he was formerly of, rather than the good god of death (_especially_ if you don't worship that pantheon) simply by attribution of, well, what many in modern times would call _edginess_. "It's an evil death fire I'm using, so I'm naming it after the evil god of death we all hate!"

> @"Mad Queen Malafide.7512" said: In order: > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > * My understanding is that signets are actually a signet ring that the user can activate to achieve an effect. In the _ancient_ days of GW1, all skills were actually empowered by "skill rings", but signets were those that did not require energy input from the user. While I think the idea of all skills being powered by rings has been dropped, I think signets are still, essentially, magical signet rings. To clarify, signet rings are _in lore_ old ways to use skills. Now, signets can be on anything (or nearly so). This is brought up somewhat by Braham in Season 4 Episode 3 when the Commander and Braham find a signet ring for dispelling illusions. Signets are, in effect, magical symbols carved into a piece of equipment. * A mark seems to just be a magical trap visible with a glowing seal of sorts. [We even had one, kinda, in GW1](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Flame_Geyser). * Life force by all appearances seems to be _very_ literal - a magical force of living. All professions are capable of tapping into this, but necromancers are capable of stealing and storing others and using this storage to power spells (when other professions do it, they can strengthen their spell in power or duration, but it comes at a physical cost to their own well being - even death if too much is used). Mechanically, it's the successor to soul reaping, but in lore it's probably more that soul reaping got retconned into this. Life Transfer is both life stealing and life force stealing. * I'm going to say no, and that it's just a fancily named technique which changed drastically over the years. Unlike Shadow Fiend, it doesn't show any visuals of summoning something. * When you use dagger skill 2, there is an animation that plays where the PC literally stabs their hand. So I'd say yes, they choose to use their own blood to power the spell. * As drax said, shadow magic is indeed a thing and is used by thieves and assassins. I'm not so sure to be quick to say necromancers definitely don't use shadow magic, but the evidence does suggest they don't. Especially if we go back to the schools of magic - assassins and mesmers are the closest professions in terms of what their magic does (moreso in GW2), which would imply shadow magic is a part of the school of denial, whereas necromancers are aggression. Zhaitan is the Elder Dragon of Death and Shadow, indicating its domains over those two kinds of magic (and more no doubt). * I'm going to say no, and suggest that it's a naming based on the fire being necrotic based rather than traditional fire. With Dhuum being the "evil god of death", something that is harsh and violent like fire would be more appropriately tied to Dhuum - moreso since non-human necromancers wouldn't attribute something good to Grenth (especially charr). * I've always felt that Wells and Wards are effectively the same magic of different schools. Which is to say that it's just ground-targeting and not coming from the underground. Which is probably why Chronomancers got wells. * In both games they seem to be pretty much mindless, which would imply no spirit - simply powered and manipualted by the necromancer. Of course there would be those which do have spirits, but then they become proper undead and not mere "necrominions". * By all indication, life force. Which is also what demons go after when they consume souls. This said, your _good guy necromancer_ won't go reaping and consuming souls (even if a skill name implies they do); because that's evil. * I think it's more of a mimikry of spectres rather than actual spectral stuff. * I'm going to say no, especially with Dark Pact. Dark Pact is a skill that makes one cut into their own hand to perform a deed, which is reminsicent of the idea of a traditional fantasy "pact with a demon" where you need to sign in blood. I think that skill in particular is nothing more than a homage to the concept, and nothing close to actually doing so. Though there are cases of deals with demons, they don't seem to follow traditional "contract binding rules" and is more deals with words (a lot more dangerous because backstab is easier). As such, deals with demons seem to be an uncommon thing, and the skills you refer are commonly used. * Pretty much what it says on the tin, and what Drax quoted.

> @"Dawdler.8521" said: > TL;DR GW2 vanilla had Charr tech, HoT made use of advanced engineer tech from the Asura to improve Charr tech (such as gyros, Charr couldnt get their helos working until Asura fixed them, and force fields on turrets etc), PoF further advanced the Asura tech to make it both more offensive and defensive. > > Engineer is the literal example that Asura are the master race. Not really. While asura and humans assisted with developing airships, I don't think this is ever said for choppers - as far as we know, choppers are either pure charr, or "charr + generic other races". Scrappers, and by extention gyros, don't utilize asura magitech as far as we know, as the term comes straight from charr society and the little lore we have on scrappers is literally that they took their scavenger behavior and knowledge and brought it to the battlefield. Scrappers, for all intents and purposes, are 100% charr. Similarly, while the Holosmith utilizes hexegonal patterns which frequently appear in asura magitech, there is no indication in the lore that asura were at all involved with the Holosmith development (though I would argue this would have made more sense to me, if it was the asura's take on engineers amplified by Zephyrite sun crystals, instead of the Elonian take on engineers). In other words: * Engineers - generic cross-species beginners * Scrappers - charr-specific engineers * Holosmiths - Elonian-specific engineers So far, we've not seen our asura specific engineers in specializations, just through NPCs like golemancers and the like.

> @"draxynnic.3719" said: > On the question of Blish being 'tortured': > > I _have_ come across references to sensory deprivation being used as a long-term method of... enhanced interrogation. It's one of those things that doesn't _sound_ as bad as inflicting physical pain, and it probably doesn't generate results as quickly, but it does have long-term psychological effects. Like solitary confinement on non-introverts but so much worse. To clarify, I wasn't trying to imply there'd be no psychological effects. Just that it isn't really _torture_ or "being in hell". But the effects are probably stronger on people who aren't introverts who prefer doing nothing more often than not, so I'm clearly bias. > @"Veprovina.4876" said: > But since Anet didn't exactly provide closure on Blish, i wonder if they intend to somehow continue his story. I kind of feel like the lack of closure _is_ the closure. Just like how we don't really get closure over, say, Demmi's death, we didn't over Blish's death. Blish "died", just as many NPCs before did, and the only ones to get closure would be Tonn/Apatia, Eir, and Trahearne. I'm just repeating myself at this point, but I really do feel like if they were entertaining the possibility of Blish's survival, they'd have shown his golem's body in the final S4 instances - either inside Kralkatorrik before the fight, or on the airship. To show that the body, if nothing else, can be/was recovered. Could still lead to "Blish is gone", but it won't be a huge asspull to bring him back from nowhere when there was no trace of him in E6 and no mention of the possibility of his survival in E4/E5/E6. I feel like bringing Blish back in any form other than a ghost, would be like bringing Almorra back to life because "ohey we found a way to resurrect her off screen" because resurrection magic, while super rare, _is_ a thing.

> @"TeeracK.3601" said: > he opposite of fire isn't usually ice its usually water. Nah, it's usually ice because opposite of hot is cold. Besides, we see already that ice _does_ effect destroyers most, and in the very first story instance of Episode 5: Champions, destroyers are coming out of the water. > we saw primordus he was massive but jormag is tiny and doesnt even look like primodus. Fraternal twins is a thing. > > Taimi: Before, we had guesses; now we have knowledge. Jormag's been very forthcoming. Did you know the two dragons are twinned? > > Braham Eirsson: JORMAG. LIES. That's their whole thing. > > These two lines being right next to each other like this makes me feel like it was meant to be a hint that Jormag isn't actually the twin to primordus. As others pointed out, despite Braham's statement here, Jormag is canonically only a liar through omission - which is to say that Jormag _technically_ doesn't lie. So when Jormag says they're Primordus' twin, then that's truth. Or at least, truth from Jormag's perspective. Same with how Jormag calls Aurene "sister". They're not _actually_ siblings, but Jormag _sees them as such_ - probably because they're both Elder Dragons. In Primordus' case, Jormag likely calls it their twin because of the relation between powers. > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > Also Jormag isn't small exactly, so far we've only seen it's head so there's not a large model to go by as of yet but I am still expecting Jormag to be about the length of Kralkatorriks Head and Tail maybe a bit of the neck too in total. > > That would make Jormag much bigger than Zhaitan's body but not as big as it's wingspan and much thicker than Mordremoth's body but not quite as long. > > If you want an example and comparison compared to other ED models I made this a while ago to show around about's what I expect Jormag's size to be using a mishmash of kralk parts as a stand in as I expect that better fits to the Lindwurm body type I am expecting Jormag to have. > >  > > > > Also to note as well, Primordus will very very likely be shrunk down when he gets a full body model in Gw2, I do not expect his head from season 3 will define his full body model, it's just too big.. however I do believe he will be the biggest of the Dragons. > > That Shaman pulled the model and made a comparison of all the dragons. You can see Jormag’s size between Zhaitan and Mordremoth. > > https://mobile.twitter.com/that_shaman/status/1333405006213615619/photo/1 It should be noted that the model That_Shaman pulled is incomplete still (obviously; only head, neck, and forearms done). But overall, it seems that Jormag's size is roughly on par to Zhaitan's original size (what is inbetween Kralk and Zhaitan in the first image). However, it should **also** be noted that Kralkatorrik technically has three sizes for his non-"storm form" appearance (storm form appearance being what we see in PoF finale and S4E4, which is very Shatterer-like and much, much bigger) - and the one included in the above image is the size from Dragonfall map, whereas the largest version of Kralkatorrik is from All or Nothing's The Crystal Dragon. I am not sure which model of Kralk That_Shaman used in his comparison, but it looks like it's just head/neck, which would be All or Nothing's model.

> @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > @"Grand Marshal.4098" said: > > I guess Koda follows the similar idea as a gendered deity as Ameyalli of the Jungle and Zintl the Sun. Wouldn't surprise me tbh. Although I do question why leave the whole gender thing for the Elder Dragons so convoluted. Why is Jormag suddenly a they and what not, when Primordus, Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Karkatorrik are pretty much implied to be males? I don't get it. Humans gods have genders, the spirits of the wild clrearly identify as something...Only the Eternal Alchemy and the Dream, _2 concepts_ are obviously not entities to have a gender. > > > > I suppose Jormag is special. > > > > I think it's because Jormag identifies as nonbinary, and is talkative enough they we _know_ they identify as nonbinary. Aurene and Glint identified as female, Kralkatorrik and Vlast as male, Primordus isn't talking so we're just assuming that Jormag knows what they're talking about when calling Primordus "he". Mordremoth and Zhaitan... I think there are references to their minions calling them by masculine pronouns, but I'm not completely sure off the top of my head, and even if they did, they might have got it wrong like the Sons of Svanir did. In general, risen and mordrem just refer to Zhaitan and Mordremoth as "the dragon"/"my master"/"Zhaitan" and "the Jungle Dragon"/"Mordremoth" respectively. The only times I've managed to find anyone calling either by a gender, it's by Tyrians. And the most prominent one to do so (Trahearne) interchanges between "he" and "it" constantly.

> @"TeeracK.3601" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > @"TeeracK.3601" said: > > > It could explain why Lyssa gained the domain of water or been more of a foreshadowing thing for this. > > > > Lyssa "gained the domain of water" because she always had ties to water, as firmly established foremost with Nightfall. Where Abaddon was about the water _depths_, Lyssa was about the water _surface_ and its reflective properties. Mirrors, reflections, and distortions of lenses are all in Lyssa's domain from day 1. > > > > She never "gained" anything but a formal title. > > > > > @"TeeracK.3601" said: > > > Actually she says "even Lyssa" as if there was some reason she wouldn't leave with them. If all her magic was consumed and she was left a mortal she could have been taking with the gods without still being a god or going darker if she was dead or maybe half dead(meaning one of the twins was eaten) she could have still left with them half consumed or as a corps with this theory still playing out. > > > > The "even Lyssa" line isn't in reference to Lyssa leaving Tyria, but agreeing to imprison Balthazar because Balthazar wanted to kill the Elder Dragons despite the consequences. > > > > > Kormir: The rest of the Six—Dwayna, Grenth, Melandru, even Lyssa—reached an agreement. Balthazar had to be dealt with. > > > > Here is what Kormir has to say about Lyssa's presence and departing the world: > > > > > The end of my time here approaches, and I find my thoughts straying. Perhaps Lyssa was right to mock me for lingering behind. > > > > Which doesn't strictly say Lyssa left, but it does signify that Lyssa was alive, and still a god, when the gods began to leave. And it _very heavily_ implies that Lyssa had already left. > > > > Also, it doesn't seem the gods are even _capable_ of leaving corpses, btw. They could have their divinity taken from them (see: Balthazar and Dhuum) but when killed, their bodies break apart and their soul and remaining magic turns into a volatile storm (unclear if said storm dissipates over time or is perpetual, as both cases we see a god / former god die, the magic got consumed into a new vessel (Kormir and Kralkatorri/Aurene for Abaddon and Balthazar respectively). > > A lot of this is your own opinion/interoperation presented as fact. Which is my own opinion? The quote of text from the game? Or stating what directly happens visually in cinematics? Please, inform me which is my "own opinion" that I'm presenting as fact. Because I can provide direct sources if you wish. The only thing that _could_ be misunderstood as "my opinion stated as fact" would be Lyssa's association with water. But... [The Mirror of Lyss](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Mirror_of_Lyss), and a lot of text around [Kehanni](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kehanni) shows otherwise, from Nightfall, that Lyssa is tied to the reflective surface of water. Even [the mysterious Bahltek](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bahltek) talks about water's reflective surface's importance. In Malchor's Leap, the association of Lyssa and reflective surfaces is furthered with her cathedral in how it - like the [sebelkeh Basilica](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Sebelkeh_Basilica) - stands over water. There's no relation between Lyssa and its depths, which is Abaddon's domain (he's even called _"Lord of the Everlasting Depths"_ in [his scriptures](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Statue_of_Abaddon)), just the surface. And the relation between Lyssa and water predates the death of Abaddon.