Feanor.2358 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Blockhead Magee.3092" said: > Everyone, EVERYONE has the same access to the game areas they purchased. The limiting factor is the player (be it effort, skill, commitment etc.). I wish everyone understood that simple fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Blockhead Magee.3092" said: > > Everyone, EVERYONE has the same access to the game areas they purchased. The limiting factor is the player (be it effort, skill, commitment etc.). > > I wish everyone understood that simple fact. Well, there are other factors too. Time/timing and luck for example. If you can only play in the 2 hours before server reset, you'll have a hard time finding a group to raid or do fractals. That certainly is a limiting factor. If you have only 20 minute blocks to play the game without disruption, that's another factor. If you got lucky and found a good guild, you suddenly have access to high level fractals and raids. If you had less luck, or maybe your English isn't that good, you'll have less access to this content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Blockhead Magee.3092" said: > > > Everyone, EVERYONE has the same access to the game areas they purchased. The limiting factor is the player (be it effort, skill, commitment etc.). > > > > I wish everyone understood that simple fact. > > Well, there are other factors too. Time/timing and luck for example. If you can only play in the 2 hours before server reset, you'll have a hard time finding a group to raid or do fractals. That certainly is a limiting factor. If you have only 20 minute blocks to play the game without disruption, that's another factor. If you got lucky and found a good guild, you suddenly have access to high level fractals and raids. If you had less luck, or maybe your English isn't that good, you'll have less access to this content. This all originates from the player and is not a limitation inherently imposed by the game. And luck... luck is irrelevant in the long run. Law of large numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Blockhead Magee.3092" said: > > > > Everyone, EVERYONE has the same access to the game areas they purchased. The limiting factor is the player (be it effort, skill, commitment etc.). > > > > > > I wish everyone understood that simple fact. > > > > Well, there are other factors too. Time/timing and luck for example. If you can only play in the 2 hours before server reset, you'll have a hard time finding a group to raid or do fractals. That certainly is a limiting factor. If you have only 20 minute blocks to play the game without disruption, that's another factor. If you got lucky and found a good guild, you suddenly have access to high level fractals and raids. If you had less luck, or maybe your English isn't that good, you'll have less access to this content. > > This all originates from the player and is not a limitation inherently imposed by the game. And luck... luck is irrelevant in the long run. Law of large numbers. In this case, the luck or lack of it when you join the game has lasting effects. If you joined the game when PoF was launched, you had a much better chance to get into decent groups and meet experienced players. If you join now, there's a good chance you'll be on your own. The first impression of a game and the first group you join matter in the long run. The law of large numbers is irrelevant here. Just like it cannot be applied to the luck and different chances people have to be born nowadays compared to the 15th century, or to be born in Europe and not in Congo. Maybe it's more clear when it comes to WvW. You joined a server when you started the game. If you are interested in this game mode and you were lucky, you got into a healthy WvW population. If you had bad luck, only few people play WvW on your server. It has a lasting effect on what kind of content you will play. I'm a bit stunned at your application of the "law of large numbers" to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Blockhead Magee.3092" said: > > > > > Everyone, EVERYONE has the same access to the game areas they purchased. The limiting factor is the player (be it effort, skill, commitment etc.). > > > > > > > > I wish everyone understood that simple fact. > > > > > > Well, there are other factors too. Time/timing and luck for example. If you can only play in the 2 hours before server reset, you'll have a hard time finding a group to raid or do fractals. That certainly is a limiting factor. If you have only 20 minute blocks to play the game without disruption, that's another factor. If you got lucky and found a good guild, you suddenly have access to high level fractals and raids. If you had less luck, or maybe your English isn't that good, you'll have less access to this content. > > > > This all originates from the player and is not a limitation inherently imposed by the game. And luck... luck is irrelevant in the long run. Law of large numbers. > > In this case, the luck or lack of it when you join the game has lasting effects. If you joined the game when PoF was launched, you had a much better chance to get into decent groups and meet experienced players. If you join now, there's a good chance you'll be on your own. The first impression of a game and the first group you join matter in the long run. The law of large numbers is irrelevant here. Just like it cannot be applied to the luck and different chances people have to be born nowadays compared to the 15th century, or to be born in Europe and not in Congo. Maybe it's more clear when it comes to WvW. You joined a server when you started the game. If you are interested in this game mode and you were lucky, you got into a healthy WvW population. If you had bad luck, only few people play WvW on your server. It has a lasting effect on what kind of content you will play. > > I'm a bit stunned at your application of the "law of large numbers" to be honest. Except these all are examples of how things matter in the short run. Doesn't matter when you join - if you keep playing and are willing to put the effort, you'll eventually make it into the groups you want. Doesn't matter which server you join - you can always transfer. Yes, there are some closed servers with high population, but you can move to a server with a healthy population. Not to mention the upcoming WvW restructuring, which will render all this obsolete. Your point is valid when you talk about tens of hours of play. I'm talking about hundreds or thousands. Which is what this game is designed for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > This all originates from the player and is not a limitation inherently imposed by the game. And luck... luck is irrelevant in the long run. Law of large numbers. On the contrary. That those situations end up being limiting is completely caused by the content design. And in this case luck is very relevant. The fact that other people are lucky and it evens out when you look at the community at large is completely irrelevant to that one unlucky person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > This all originates from the player and is not a limitation inherently imposed by the game. And luck... luck is irrelevant in the long run. Law of large numbers. > On the contrary. That those situations end up being limiting is completely caused by the content design. > > And in this case luck is very relevant. The fact that other people are lucky and it evens out when you look at the community at large is completely irrelevant to that one unlucky person. Completely not the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > Thousands of man-hours gone into creating new balance levels, which achieves nothing. That's pretty much my definition of "wasting development time". And no, it won't affect the accessibility a tiny bit. **You already have the lower tiers of instanced content which you can use to get yourself ready for raiding.** The reason why fewer people play raids? Same as why fewer people play fractal CMs - because the content is challenging and no number of lower tiers can prepare you for it. Only by playing, failing and playing again can you master it. This is what *the players it is meant for* find interesting and fun. And this is the barrier of entry the rest of the players don't want to cross. > > > > > > > > I've never seen an LFG in the raid section that asks for a Fractal Savant title, a 99cm/100cm kill proof or Ad Infinitum to join the group. So while I agree that fractals prepare you skill-wise for raids, they are not an entry-requirement for raids at all, nor do they make it easier to actually get into raid groups. The fractal tiers work great...for fractals. They are not in place for raids. Raid tiers would make raids more accessible, because "instanced content" is not all the same. A group that wants to do 99cm/100cm doesn't care if you have 100LI or some raid title, and a raid group doesn't care if you are a Fractal Savant. > > > > > > > > You say no lower tier raids can prepare you for raids, but on the other hand, you agree that it works well for fractals. Why do you make that distinction? > > > > > > You won't see any. The explanation is a bit further in the text you quoted, but for your convenience I'll write it again: > > > > > > "Only by playing, failing and playing again can you master it." > > > > > > Of course raid LFGs will look for raid-specific experience. You won't see fractal CM party asking for Demon's Demise either, for the same reason - the experience doesn't translate directly. That's the point. Experience not translating directly is what makes new challenging content fun. Because it means you get to figure it out on your own, make the transition from "omg, what just happened" through "ah, I get it", further down the "oh not this again" and finally to "yay for us, team". And that same feature means you **can't** get ready for that content on lower levels. A lower level can teach you some basics, that's true. But these basics you can already learn in fractals. Apologies if I didn't make it clear enough. > > > > > > TL;DR: > > > Lower tiers don't make you ready, it only teaches basics. > > > > You write as if I was the one incapable of reading. But you first wrote "You already have the lower tiers of instanced content which you can use to get yourself ready for raiding." and now you are saying "Lower tiers don't make you ready, it only teaches basics." > > > > Sorry, it's not me who is unclear here. If you changed your mind, that's fine, but please don't act like this is what you said all the time and that I didn't pay attention. > > Apologies, it seems like I didn't make my point clear enough. > > Here's the deal: lower difficulty tiers only get you so far. Being good at T4 fractals doesn't make you automatically good in fractal CMs, that why CM groups ask for CM killproof. The way to become good in CMs is to play them, fail, and play them more. The same holds true for raiding. You can't be prepared for raiding without having raided. > > Now, obviously having experience in the lower tier translates into something. Like, you know your role in the group and how to perform it under pressure. **However, a lower tier raid won't teach you anything more than the already existing fractals in this respect.** It won't teach you the mechanics either, as they will need to be relaxed out of necessity. See for instance normal mode vs CM Arkk. In normal mode, failing the pillars mechanic isn't a big deal - you take some damage, shrug it off and continue. In CM it simply wipes you and that makes a BIG difference. Relaxed mechanics teach bad habits, which translate directly into poor performance on the higher tier. Any potential advantage from knowing the mechanics is completely lost because you will first need to unlearn all the bad habits picked up. > > Hope I made that clear. > > > @"Adenin.5973" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > Thousands of man-hours gone into creating new balance levels, which achieves nothing. That's pretty much my definition of "wasting development time". And no, it won't affect the accessibility a tiny bit. **You already have the lower tiers of instanced content which you can use to get yourself ready for raiding.** The reason why fewer people play raids? Same as why fewer people play fractal CMs - because the content is challenging and no number of lower tiers can prepare you for it. Only by playing, failing and playing again can you master it. This is what *the players it is meant for* find interesting and fun. And this is the barrier of entry the rest of the players don't want to cross. > > > > > > - "Thousands of man-hours gone into creating new balance levels, which achieves nothing." - You don't know that it would take that long > > - And no, it won't affect the accessibility a tiny bit. **You already have the lower tiers of instanced content which you can use to get yourself ready for raiding.** - Wow that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Fractals do not get you ready for raiding, they don't explain you the mechanics, they don't require a meta composition (yes, you can do it with 4 MM necros and a longbow ranger), they don't give you killproof so ppl take you with them in raids. What do they prepare you for? Maybe you learn your class a bit better, maybe you learn to evade better. These things could be learned elsewhere. It's like saying high rank PvP prepares you for raiding. > > - The reason why fewer people play raids? Same as why fewer people play fractal CMs - because the content is challenging and no number of lower tiers can prepare you for it. - So you just said literally that the "lower tiers of content can you get ready for raiding" and now you say the complete opposite of it in the next sentence. Also this is again completely baseless speculation from you that has no example in the game. If you would ask right now any person that plays 99/100cm, if the 99/100cm mode was the only and very first fractal they've played, what would be the answer? Exactly, everyone started at the bottom and climbed their ladder, failing already at t1 fractrals and t2 and 3 and t4. And now that they're doing 99/100cms the lower tiers are super easy for them but they were a challenge when they went in the low tiers for the first time. Ask them if a complete newb that never played the fractal should immediately start at 99/100cm or if it would be a good idea to start with t1. We all know the answer. > > And yes, of course super challenging content will always be a bit of a niche content, but this is not about making the current raid difficulty level the most played content in the game, it's about making raids in general as content be played by far more people, this includes ppl playing raids at t1-t4. It's about how much hours of content per player gets anet from developing a raid. Currently that number must be unbelievably small, therefore it's a waste of their time but by making raids as a whole be played by more players, this number will drastically increase to a point where new raids are worth their effort and then they might even get more raids out than before, with more lore and rewards tied to them > > - Only by playing, failing and playing again can you master it. - Exactly, achieved by raid tiers, where the lowest tier doesnt search for any killproof, where newbs can just join and try the raid, without getting together with the uber elitists that kick them instantly or where the entire group wipes immediately because someone made a mistake. > > - And this is the barrier of entry the rest of the players don't want to cross. - Again not true, there are tons of players that failed at fractals but they find either a tier that suits them or they can go down a tier train a bit and eventually they get to the next tier. Fractals are still popular, they wouldn't if the only tier would be t4 or only the cms. > > > > You don't have to and you shouldn't lower the ceiling but you should, as already explained, lower the entry barrier. There's nothing that changes for the people that like the challenge but a massive part of the playerbase get's a massive amount of content that suddenly is within they reach and ability to play, with long term goals in improving their gameplay, their equipment and even those that want to do only raids for the story have now a low tier entry raid where they can experience that. > > > > That's the exact opposite of wasting development time. > > I have a pretty good idea how long would it take. I've been a game developer for the last 14 years and I've developed a feel how long it takes to get various things done. Obviously, since I don't work for ANet my estimate can be way off. But not orders of magnitude off. And it would take that much for the changes you think to be actually considered fast and easy. > > For the rest, see my explanation in reply to Faaris above. In short, you won't get any more prepared by playing a hypothetical "easy mode raid" than you would from playing T4 FotM. Both won't make you ready. Only playing actual raids will. This is true... I too learned to play golf by competing in the PGA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilyanna.9361 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > For the rest, see my explanation in reply to Faaris above. In short, you won't get any more prepared by playing a hypothetical "easy mode raid" than you would from playing T4 FotM. Both won't make you ready. Only playing actual raids will. > > And that is where our observations differ. In my book, the tiered system in fractals works great. Many more people play fractals than do raids. I myself went through the tiers and learned a lot on the way up. And when you've done 100 in normal mode a lot of times, you are much better prepared for 100cm than if you hadn't done any fractals before. If fractals worked like raids, you would have to dive into the content with 100cm. Instead of half of GW2's population playing fractals regularly (estimate according to gw2efficiency numbers), you would have mayb 2% playing them. There is no "bad habits" taught by tuned down mechanics that cannot be changed quickly. We see this happen when players leave T3 and join T4. They got bad habits like ranging and using defensive gear and strategies. But They adapt quickly and you rarely see that happening in T4s. > > If you start playing basketball when you are young, and you use a normal weighted and sized ball for years, you might learn bad posture when throwing it. Your brain is in development and your muscle memory is forming in a very specific period of your life. When you are 20, it might even be too late to get rid of the bad posture/habit and you will have a very hard time getting better. But we are talking about simple mouse and key movements here done for a short period of time by people with mostly fully developed brains. You can adapt very quickly to changed environments. If your "bad habits" theory was reflecting reality, how could players even play different classes in this game? How could they change their rotation after a patch? I have several setups for my mouse keys, depending on the class I play. It just takes a few days for muscle memory to adapt. We are extremely adaptable beings, when you get a new mobile phone with a different operating system tomorrow, you'll handle it without looking within a week. I recently learned how to cut onions in a better way. All my life I was cutting onions in a specific way, a "bad habit" you might say. Guess what, I'm not a lost case, because I simply started cutting them in the way I was shown. And you really think if a player can survive an AoE in T3, he'll not learn to dodge after the first 3 attempts in T4? Man of the people are horrible at fractals. I've been through T1-T3 already, and even NOW people still don't seem to get the mechanics of a boss after going through TWO tiers. This is not even talking about meta class, this is about the fact people that SHOULD know this mechanics by now don't. No the lower tier fractals does nothing for them and just requires people who were actually taught mechanics before, to carry them. Me and my bf had to leave THREE groups in T3 because no one wanted to listen or wait for him to explain, they just zoomed off and died. So tell me again how do lower tier fractals help anyone? And I have seen this more times this week alone. These people are severely handicapped. If this was someone with a disability I'd gladly slow down for them, if these are people who are just LAZY are not wanting to pay attention to boss mechanics, then they need to get knocked back down so they won't drag other groups in higher tiers. TDLR; Just because there are lower tiers, doesn't mean it will teach anything. Be it for fractals or raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fremtid.3528 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"Danikat.8537" said: > > But legendary armour was always going to be a niche thing. Raids themselves only appeal to a small part of the playerbase, which Anet knew when they started - that's why they're developed by a small team and we've continued to get other kinds of PvE content alongside it. They set out to make a game for casual players so they knew not everyone would want to raid, but if they can have it there as an option for the people who do without having to stop development in other area why shouldn't they? Same with legendary armour - they said when it was released they'd only be doing 1 set of skins because it wasn't worth the time and effort it took to make lots of them, but they wanted one for the people who did want it. > > Raid-content shouldn't be niche; raids are basically just typical dungeons on a larger scale and should be THE PvE-main-content beside OW and fractals. We currently have 5 raid-wings, that's a kitten-ton of content which people shouldn't be locked out off. They however are because of lackluster game-design and a kittened-up community. What Anet should focus on is improving the accessibility of their content rather then pushing out more raid-content. > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > ...That being said, you're vastly overestimating the commitment of players to FotM. Judging by the WvW legendary armor, a FotM one would require effort and dedication on par with the raid one. And it would end up being crafted by pretty much the same players who now own one or more Envoy skins. > > > > > > I really don't think so. Fractals are much more approachable for players. Unfortunately, I have no numbers that would tell us how many people play fractals and raids and how many do both. gw2efficiency shows the percentage of all registered players who got the legendary backpack for example, but it doesn't allow multiple selections for achievements or skins unlocked and shows a Venn diagram. > > > > > > 9.4% of registered players have Ad Infinitum unlocked. I cannot tell how many players unlocked legendary armor because there is no unique identifier associated with it, like a title (you only get one when you made all armor weights). There are more indicators, like how many players got Legendary Insights? Looks like 50% of players have zero LIs. How many players got the Professor title for completing the fractals junk item collection (which takes a few weeks of playing fractals)? It's almost 55%. > > > > > > A lot of players play fractals and never set foot into raids. Of course there is an overlap, but it is not the same subset of players. I rarely join raids, I have only 13 LIs, but I play fractals every day, and as far as I know, I'm not unique. You can easily and quickly do a fractal run, but not a raid run, and many people simply have limited time for playing. The tiered system in fractals allows newbies to just go ahead and play. There is a high entry barrier for raids, you cannot simply walz in and play them whenever you have time. > > > > > > I'm pretty sure that a lot of people who never bother to raid for legendary armor would do it in fractals. > > > > It's not about the numbers, it's about persistence. Have you seen how much time does it take to make a WvW legendary set? I have. It's a LOT. Yes, many players play fractals. But very few play them so much. We're not talking about few weeks. We're talking about months of **active **play. WvW set takes that much, raid set takes that much, a hypothetical FotM set would take that much as well. > > Hypothetically speaking, the raid-set is the fastest to get hypothetically taking 9/18 weeks for one set. WvW and PvP take a multiple of what would be needed to get an armor-set. You need multiple seasons for PvP; WvW also takes a kitten-load of time. The disparity in effort needed is incomprehensible. It's not really about persistence, but to artificially lock legendary armor behind raids. > > > @"Fallesafe.5932" said: > > > @"Game of Bones.8975" said: > > > I've been looking for someone, anyone to have Legendary armor to see if it's worth the time. > > > > > > I think this is an example of being so restrictive that people don't care to try. With that in mind, it's a waste of ANET developers time and money to roll-out something that is of so little use to the masses. > > > > > > Or maybe it's that I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time and that there are hundreds of suits out there but I keep looking the wrong way. > > > > The legendary armor looks TERRIBLE. I wouldn't mind getting it for the convenience of stat-swapping. But I'd immediately skin it over with the gemstore "exemplar's attire" (i.e. best outfit in the game). > > > > More to your point, OP... I disagree. There NEEDS to be some reward to incentivize raids. And legendary armor just barely (sort of) fills that role. It's in no way a "waste of ANET developers time and money" to invest resources in some of their most dedicated and profitable players. > > Raids are already incentivized enough. You get raid-currency, finished ascended crafting-components like leather squares and the like, the chance to get unique ascended weapons, infusions, and unique miniatures. You get a kitten-load of gold if you have somewhat decent people to do raids with. In fact, for being that absurdly inaccessible, I actually think raids are far too rewarding, especially for those people who sell raids. This week someone sold my friend and two of his friends three Oblivion's for 2k mystic coins. But no the dude's right theres no incentive for raiding at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > No the lower tier fractals does nothing for them and just requires people who were actually taught mechanics before, to carry them. Me and my bf had to leave THREE groups in T3 because no one wanted to listen or wait for him to explain, they just zoomed off and died. So tell me again how do lower tier fractals help anyone? And I have seen this more times this week alone. Of course a tiered system doesn't guarantee that people learn ths stuff. But if you want to compare tiered fractals with non-tiered raids, I ask you to join LFGs that don't ask for any requirement to do a raid. Just create an LFG like the ones you join in T4s and see how it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > No the lower tier fractals does nothing for them and just requires people who were actually taught mechanics before, to carry them. Me and my bf had to leave THREE groups in T3 because no one wanted to listen or wait for him to explain, they just zoomed off and died. So tell me again how do lower tier fractals help anyone? And I have seen this more times this week alone. > > Of course a tiered system doesn't guarantee that people learn ths stuff. But if you want to compare tiered fractals with non-tiered raids, I ask you to join LFGs that don't ask for any requirement to do a raid. Just create an LFG like the ones you join in T4s and see how it goes. > > You people need to stop making an artificial distinction between fractals and raids. It's all instances PvE content. Party size doesn't change much. And you won't learn actual mechanics anyway on a lower tier. Just like you don't learn them in fractals, especially visible when you go to 99/100 CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > TDLR; Just because there are lower tiers, doesn't mean it will teach anything. Be it for fractals or raids. At the same time, the fact that the existence of the lower tiers doesn't help some people, it doesn't mean it will help noone. You're right, the existence of the lower tiers is not a guarantee that everyone will learn something - but it will definitely help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunateric.3708 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > You're right, the existence of the lower tiers is not a guarantee that everyone will learn something - but it will definitely help. > [citation neeed] **Legendary** gear should require effort, wanting an easy way into it has been a goal for many players before because truth is most people are suckers for instant gratification. I am glad the devs haven't paid attention to this particular "necessity" for easier content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > You're right, the existence of the lower tiers is not a guarantee that everyone will learn something - but it will definitely help. > > > [citation neeed] > > **Legendary** gear should require effort, wanting an easy way into it has been a goal for many players before because truth is most people are suckers for instant gratification. > > I am glad the devs haven't paid attention to this particular "necessity" for easier content. Nice of you to consider only the content you like to require effort and think that any effort put in any other content is "instant gratification". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > You're right, the existence of the lower tiers is not a guarantee that everyone will learn something - but it will definitely help. > > > > > [citation neeed] > > > > **Legendary** gear should require effort, wanting an easy way into it has been a goal for many players before because truth is most people are suckers for instant gratification. > > > > I am glad the devs haven't paid attention to this particular "necessity" for easier content. > Nice of you to consider only the content you like to require effort and think that any effort put in any other content is "instant gratification". > Like it or not, the ask for **easy** mode *challenging* content is nothing but desire for instant gratification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > You're right, the existence of the lower tiers is not a guarantee that everyone will learn something - but it will definitely help. > > > > > > > [citation neeed] > > > > > > **Legendary** gear should require effort, wanting an easy way into it has been a goal for many players before because truth is most people are suckers for instant gratification. > > > > > > I am glad the devs haven't paid attention to this particular "necessity" for easier content. > > Nice of you to consider only the content you like to require effort and think that any effort put in any other content is "instant gratification". > > > > Like it or not, the ask for **easy** mode *challenging* content is nothing but desire for instant gratification. Except raid implementation in this game is far from challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > > You're right, the existence of the lower tiers is not a guarantee that everyone will learn something - but it will definitely help. > > > > > > > > > [citation neeed] > > > > > > > > **Legendary** gear should require effort, wanting an easy way into it has been a goal for many players before because truth is most people are suckers for instant gratification. > > > > > > > > I am glad the devs haven't paid attention to this particular "necessity" for easier content. > > > Nice of you to consider only the content you like to require effort and think that any effort put in any other content is "instant gratification". > > > > > > > Like it or not, the ask for **easy** mode *challenging* content is nothing but desire for instant gratification. > > Except raid implementation in this game is far from challenging. Doesn't change anything, only makes people wanting easy mode seem even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > > > You're right, the existence of the lower tiers is not a guarantee that everyone will learn something - but it will definitely help. > > > > > > > > > > > [citation neeed] > > > > > > > > > > **Legendary** gear should require effort, wanting an easy way into it has been a goal for many players before because truth is most people are suckers for instant gratification. > > > > > > > > > > I am glad the devs haven't paid attention to this particular "necessity" for easier content. > > > > Nice of you to consider only the content you like to require effort and think that any effort put in any other content is "instant gratification". > > > > > > > > > > Like it or not, the ask for **easy** mode *challenging* content is nothing but desire for instant gratification. > > > > Except raid implementation in this game is far from challenging. > > Doesn't change anything, only makes people wanting easy mode seem even worse. It actually does. All your argumentation is based on prestigue aspect of your rewards. GW2 content doesn't make anyone famous. There is no prestigue in any aspect of the game. Competitive or cooperative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > You're right, the existence of the lower tiers is not a guarantee that everyone will learn something - but it will definitely help. > > > > > > > [citation neeed] > > > > > > **Legendary** gear should require effort, wanting an easy way into it has been a goal for many players before because truth is most people are suckers for instant gratification. > > > > > > I am glad the devs haven't paid attention to this particular "necessity" for easier content. > > Nice of you to consider only the content you like to require effort and think that any effort put in any other content is "instant gratification". > > > > Like it or not, the ask for **easy** mode *challenging* content is nothing but desire for instant gratification. It could easily take longer and thus require more effort than the current raid path. Lower difficulty does not necessarily equal less effort. More difficulty does not necessarily mean a lot of effort either - there are already people saying that raids are so easy they require no effort whatsoever (because, you know, difficulty is a subjective thing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > > > > You're right, the existence of the lower tiers is not a guarantee that everyone will learn something - but it will definitely help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > [citation neeed] > > > > > > > > > > > > **Legendary** gear should require effort, wanting an easy way into it has been a goal for many players before because truth is most people are suckers for instant gratification. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am glad the devs haven't paid attention to this particular "necessity" for easier content. > > > > > Nice of you to consider only the content you like to require effort and think that any effort put in any other content is "instant gratification". > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like it or not, the ask for **easy** mode *challenging* content is nothing but desire for instant gratification. > > > > > > Except raid implementation in this game is far from challenging. > > > > Doesn't change anything, only makes people wanting easy mode seem even worse. > > It actually does. All your argumentation is based on prestigue aspect of your rewards. GW2 content doesn't make anyone famous. There is no prestigue in any aspect of the game. Competitive or cooperative. It's not necessarily about prestige, it's about fair reward. But even if it was about prestige, it's a subjective perception. It doesn't matter how challenging in "absolute scale" are the raids (even the notion of that is kind of silly, since there's no absolute scale here either, challenge is also subjective). They're the most challenging content of the game, meaning they are prestigious in the context of this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > > You're right, the existence of the lower tiers is not a guarantee that everyone will learn something - but it will definitely help. > > > > > > > > > [citation neeed] > > > > > > > > **Legendary** gear should require effort, wanting an easy way into it has been a goal for many players before because truth is most people are suckers for instant gratification. > > > > > > > > I am glad the devs haven't paid attention to this particular "necessity" for easier content. > > > Nice of you to consider only the content you like to require effort and think that any effort put in any other content is "instant gratification". > > > > > > > Like it or not, the ask for **easy** mode *challenging* content is nothing but desire for instant gratification. > It could easily take longer and thus require more effort than the current raid path. Lower difficulty does not necessarily equal less effort. More difficulty does not necessarily mean a lot of effort either - there are already people saying that raids are so easy they require no effort whatsoever (because, you know, difficulty is a subjective thing). > > In the context of challenging content, yes, easy mode does necessarily equal less effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > > > > > You're right, the existence of the lower tiers is not a guarantee that everyone will learn something - but it will definitely help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [citation neeed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Legendary** gear should require effort, wanting an easy way into it has been a goal for many players before because truth is most people are suckers for instant gratification. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am glad the devs haven't paid attention to this particular "necessity" for easier content. > > > > > > Nice of you to consider only the content you like to require effort and think that any effort put in any other content is "instant gratification". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like it or not, the ask for **easy** mode *challenging* content is nothing but desire for instant gratification. > > > > > > > > Except raid implementation in this game is far from challenging. > > > > > > Doesn't change anything, only makes people wanting easy mode seem even worse. > > > > It actually does. All your argumentation is based on prestigue aspect of your rewards. GW2 content doesn't make anyone famous. There is no prestigue in any aspect of the game. Competitive or cooperative. > > It's not necessarily about prestige, it's about fair reward. But even if it was about prestige, it's a subjective perception. It doesn't matter how challenging in "absolute scale" are the raids (even the notion of that is kind of silly, since there's no absolute scale here either, challenge is also subjective). They're the most challenging content of the game, meaning they are prestigious in the context of this game. There is no fairness in reward system. You get better g/h ratio in open world zerg spam than in any instanced or competitive mode. Rewards are not related to difficulty in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > > > > > > You're right, the existence of the lower tiers is not a guarantee that everyone will learn something - but it will definitely help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [citation neeed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Legendary** gear should require effort, wanting an easy way into it has been a goal for many players before because truth is most people are suckers for instant gratification. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am glad the devs haven't paid attention to this particular "necessity" for easier content. > > > > > > > Nice of you to consider only the content you like to require effort and think that any effort put in any other content is "instant gratification". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like it or not, the ask for **easy** mode *challenging* content is nothing but desire for instant gratification. > > > > > > > > > > Except raid implementation in this game is far from challenging. > > > > > > > > Doesn't change anything, only makes people wanting easy mode seem even worse. > > > > > > It actually does. All your argumentation is based on prestigue aspect of your rewards. GW2 content doesn't make anyone famous. There is no prestigue in any aspect of the game. Competitive or cooperative. > > > > It's not necessarily about prestige, it's about fair reward. But even if it was about prestige, it's a subjective perception. It doesn't matter how challenging in "absolute scale" are the raids (even the notion of that is kind of silly, since there's no absolute scale here either, challenge is also subjective). They're the most challenging content of the game, meaning they are prestigious in the context of this game. > > There is no fairness in reward system. You get better g/h ratio in open world zerg spam than in any instanced or competitive mode. Rewards are not related to difficulty in this game. There's more to rewards than just g/h. Exclusive rewards work just as well. That's why dungeons had unique armors, that's why the legendary backpacks are tied to particular content in the game and so forth. An exclusive reward gives you a goal, an additional incentive to return to this content and a sense of satisfaction when you get it. It's totally a fair reward. Doesn't matter if it has any monetary value (or, as in the case of Envoy armor, is a huge gold sink). But it only remains fair as long as it stays exclusive. Otherwise it becomes just another farm and it loses all the properties mentioned above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > > > > > > > You're right, the existence of the lower tiers is not a guarantee that everyone will learn something - but it will definitely help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [citation neeed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Legendary** gear should require effort, wanting an easy way into it has been a goal for many players before because truth is most people are suckers for instant gratification. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am glad the devs haven't paid attention to this particular "necessity" for easier content. > > > > > > > > Nice of you to consider only the content you like to require effort and think that any effort put in any other content is "instant gratification". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like it or not, the ask for **easy** mode *challenging* content is nothing but desire for instant gratification. > > > > > > > > > > > > Except raid implementation in this game is far from challenging. > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't change anything, only makes people wanting easy mode seem even worse. > > > > > > > > It actually does. All your argumentation is based on prestigue aspect of your rewards. GW2 content doesn't make anyone famous. There is no prestigue in any aspect of the game. Competitive or cooperative. > > > > > > It's not necessarily about prestige, it's about fair reward. But even if it was about prestige, it's a subjective perception. It doesn't matter how challenging in "absolute scale" are the raids (even the notion of that is kind of silly, since there's no absolute scale here either, challenge is also subjective). They're the most challenging content of the game, meaning they are prestigious in the context of this game. > > > > There is no fairness in reward system. You get better g/h ratio in open world zerg spam than in any instanced or competitive mode. Rewards are not related to difficulty in this game. > > There's more to rewards than just g/h. Exclusive rewards work just as well. That's why dungeons had unique armors, that's why the legendary backpacks are tied to particular content in the game and so forth. An exclusive reward gives you a goal, an additional incentive to return to this content and a sense of satisfaction when you get it. It's totally a fair reward. Doesn't matter if it has any monetary value (or, as in the case of Envoy armor, is a huge gold sink). But it only remains fair as long as it stays exclusive. Otherwise it becomes just another farm and it loses all the properties mentioned above. Dungeons for few years already don't have unique rewards. Legendary backpacks are just skins as functionality is shared between modes. You just said this is not about prestigue. This means there's no reason to artificially gate rewards behind content. And raids are already a farm. People farm shards to buy skins just like they farm dungeons or fractals or pvp reward tracks. There's no prestigue in your raid skins just like there's no prestigue in pvp skins or god forbid dungeon armors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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