Reduce Core/Reaper Shroud cooldowns by 2-3 seconds.

[Zietlogik.6208]

Proposition: Reduce Death Shroud and Reaper shroud to 7-8 seconds -or- provide a 20-30% reduce shroud cooldown to a trait.

 

Reasoning: The previous trait https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Speed_of_Shadows before being reworked on August 08, 2017 provided a 30% reduction to shroud cooldown bringing it from 10 seconds to 7.

 

This made the transition between shroud and weapon skills more fluid and helped give core and reaper specced necromancers more defensive capabilities when playing power variants of the class.

 

Either making Death Shroud and Reaper Shroud 7-8 seconds cooldown baseline, or providing the 30% to a trait once again (which would also bring the Scourge F5 to 21s CD) which would cause Scourge players to rethink which traits to bring (unblockable marks/LF vs reduced F5 CD) if for example it was added to either Unyielding Blast or Speed of Shadows.

 

Currently most builds will use Soul Marks as their 1st trait, so adding it to this line (either reworking unyielding blast..which is kinda crap, or reverting speed of shadows) would provide alternative choices to melee / non-staff builds as well as another choice for staff users possibly.

[aDemoNnDisguisE.8576]

Agree.

This has been the single largest nerf to necro in 4+ years.

All because of that scourge that no one likes and is getting nerfed every balance patch anyway...

 

WTF Anet... wtf.

[Fenrir Bartea.5917]

Agreed, reaper is rough. Feels bad to be a melee class that can't trade hits with any other melee class with a hint of sustain.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

Agreed. This should be made baseline for all game modes.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

don't put it in soul reaping. I hate must have traitlines, kills diversity.

[Jalal.6783]

Agree. It's one of the things i have been missing the most. The meta is so fast paced i feel like a slug. Everyone is running circles around me and when i do manage to reach them expending half my shroud, they are invuln and am forced to leave shroud due to the extremely high drain rate. By the time reaper shroud comes back up, i am almost nearly dead due to my lack of stability and innate slowness of the class and am only prolonging the inevitable. Drain rate needs to be adjusted as well. It's just too fast to meaningfully enjoy going into reaper shroud in the first place

[Yannir.4132]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> don't put it in soul reaping. I hate must have traitlines, kills diversity.

 

Yeah, I'd rather they make it baseline.

[Dreddo.9865]

Maybe also eliminate LF decay when in shroud? Reaper is a no go in PvP atm.

[trixantea.1230]

> @"Dreddo.9865" said:

> Maybe also eliminate LF decay when in shroud? Reaper is a no go in PvP atm.

 

Yeah, I've been thinking about removing the decay and making shroud abilities cost life force on activation.

 

Instead of being forced to smash 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before decay, Reaper will have the choice to use life force either defensively or offensively according to the situation.

 

Also, the shroud CD reduction is most welcome.

[Jinn Galen.2468]

> @"trixantea.1230" said:

> Yeah, I've been thinking about removing the decay and making shroud abilities cost life force on activation.

>

> Instead of being forced to smash 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before decay, Reaper will have the choice to use life force either defensively or offensively according to the situation.

>

> Also, the shroud CD reduction is most welcome.

 

 

That's tricky business mate. Life force in shroud gets eaten fast by damage. If you choose to use it offensively, your opponent might not give you the opportunity since he can easily disrupt it by just destroying your life force which should have gone towards your shroud skills. It works with scourge because scourge uses an independent defense mechanic in barriers.

 

 

It's best to just bring back 3% degen and 7 sec shroud CD for the moment.

[Zietlogik.6208]

> @"Jinn Galen.2468" said:

> It's best to just bring back 3% degen and 7 sec shroud CD for the moment.

 

This would really be all we need, but considering how long Warrior's have been trying to get Fast Hands as baseline, it seems Anet doesn't like changing mechanics in this way, they much prefer to hamfist them into strange places that barely function instead, so the more options we can provide to try and it get it re-implemented the more chance it will be to happen

 

 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Zietlogik.6208" said:

> > @"Jinn Galen.2468" said:

> > It's best to just bring back 3% degen and 7 sec shroud CD for the moment.

>

> This would really be all we need, but considering how long Warrior's have been trying to get Fast Hands as baseline, it seems Anet doesn't like changing mechanics in this way, they much prefer to hamfist them into strange places that barely function instead, so the more options we can provide to try and it get it re-implemented the more chance it will be to happen

>

>

 

I think reducing Shroud cooldown is far more likely than making Fast Hands baseline because Fast Hands modifies a mechanic almost all classes have while reducing Shroud cooldown modifies a mechanic only Necros have.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

I honestly don't mind getting nerf in other areas if Reaper was given 7 seconds shroud as baseline.

This was the one thing that really made Reaper fluid and fun to play.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

I hope they'll consider this change for baseline. I don't think any other classes will object.

[brannigan.9831]

Reaper took a bunch of ridiculous nerfs over time that were totally uncalled for. Really they could roll the entire class back to how it was after they nerfed Deathly Chill the first time and it would be perfectly fine in spvp. The nerfs they did to shroud up time and increasing the shroud cooldown which totally destroyed the flow of the class were a sick joke. I don't even need to go into the numerous little papercut wounds like nerfing RISE into the ground.

[Toll Booth Willie.6723]

I'll chime in to agree that the cooldown nerfs were a bit much along with the degen change. I would like to further add that reverting one if not both those changes would help give reaper at least a bit more of a chance to not get melted out of pocket. I don't see how people camping shroud could have been such a huge issue for the above nerfs to have been implemented.

[pah.4931]

Have a thumbs up for me. Quick "shroud dancing" made the class very fun to play and it never felt THAT OP because you're tied to life force regen anyways... it's not like you can fill your LF bar every seven seconds for near perma-shroud. Plus with the complete lack of stab across the entire class, we are so easily CC'd and locked down, we really need more accessible options. Shorter shroud CD should be baseline for Necro and Reaper.

 

And since they are completely different abilities, and we're just talking CDs, this is something the upcoming "split" balance patch could address (though I'd make the cd reduction for core and reaper across all modes). Pretty please, @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" ????

[Zietlogik.6208]

> @"pah.4931" said:

> Have a thumbs up for me. Quick "shroud dancing" made the class very fun to play and it never felt THAT OP because you're tied to life force regen anyways... it's not like you can fill your LF bar every seven seconds for near perma-shroud. Plus with the complete lack of stab across the entire class, we are so easily CC'd and locked down, we really need more accessible options. Shorter shroud CD should be baseline for Necro and Reaper.

>

> And since they are completely different abilities, and we're just talking CDs, this is something the upcoming "split" balance patch could address (though I'd make the cd reduction for core and reaper across all modes). Pretty please, @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" ????

 

That was, and still is, the best thing about reaper, is the stance dance style in and outs of shroud, offense and defense, kiting and damage to keep yourself in a fight, if you don't do it right, you get CC'd (out of shroud) or leave yourself with not enough defense to escape due to lack of movement abilities Necro has access to.

 

The cooldown change alone would go a long way.

[Toll Booth Willie.6723]

> @"Zietlogik.6208" said:

> > @"pah.4931" said:

> > Have a thumbs up for me. Quick "shroud dancing" made the class very fun to play and it never felt THAT OP because you're tied to life force regen anyways... it's not like you can fill your LF bar every seven seconds for near perma-shroud. Plus with the complete lack of stab across the entire class, we are so easily CC'd and locked down, we really need more accessible options. Shorter shroud CD should be baseline for Necro and Reaper.

> >

> > And since they are completely different abilities, and we're just talking CDs, this is something the upcoming "split" balance patch could address (though I'd make the cd reduction for core and reaper across all modes). Pretty please, @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" ????

>

> That was, and still is, the best thing about reaper, is the stance dance style in and outs of shroud, offense and defense, kiting and damage to keep yourself in a fight, if you don't do it right, you get CC'd (out of shroud) or leave yourself with not enough defense to escape due to lack of movement abilities Necro has access to.

>

> The cooldown change alone would go a long way.

 

Thats just it. I never really liked camping shroud to begin with. Usually because (i couldn't anyway, in pvp) and the fact that once you blow your cooldowns other than maybe trying to get some health back spamming 1 wouldn't do much good anyway.

[brannigan.9831]

You could never camp in shroud that was a myth. And why would you want to anyway there are good abilities you would want to use that you can't in shroud. I mean I would be happy with any fixes and I agree just change the shroud cooldown would be enough to probably make Reaper at least semi viable but you could never camp in shroud and once you are out of shroud you are an easy kill if the other team isn't morons especially in solo q where you cant really coordinate peels. Almost none of the nerfs Reaper has taken were really justified after Deathly Chill was nerfed the first time. That was in fact too much easy damage.

[pah.4931]

Shroud absolutely needs a much quicker cool down. And I think LF generation for core and reaper needs to almost double. The fact is that it's absolutely ABSURD that necro has no access to extra evasion / blocks / teleports. We are sitting ducks for burst and cc.

 

Damage is SO high right now that shroud is useless (not even considering the lame decay nerf last year). To even THINK shroud is a decent defensive mechanic now is just ridiculous. If damage was halved, then maybe it could work. But if someone is about to global you for XX,000 damage in a couple seconds... what's better? Being able to complete block / evade a 8k crit, or soaking that damage in your super cool "shroud" ... ???

 

Play around on a Guardian for a bit then try necro again. It's gross.

 

The game has moved on from the shroud mechanic, and left core necro and reaper behind (even scourge isn't THAT great, they just excel because the way conquest is set up, not because good class design). Nothing can save it without a class overhaul, I'm afraid.

[Ragion.2831]

@"Zietlogik.6208" , thats a surprise i thought you were a warrior main. I remember a pretty decent asuran warrior with that name.

 

7-8 seconds isnt enough for core and reaper, it really has to be 5 seconds. If this was vanilla i would agree 7 seconds is ok but the game has changed drastically. Shroud degeneration is higher, damage is higher and there are a lot more opportunities to receive high amounts of damage.

 

Necro doesnt have an evasive attack, disengage, block, invuln or stealth. There are classes out here that can go invulnerable half the time and still stealth, nearly every other class can disengage from necro at any time, classes are popping passives like Xanax.

 

I find that people who make necro suggestions dont talk about these problems much (maybe because they all play condi). They mostly focus on improving under performing skills, which is fair in its own right but more than the necro bubble should be considered.

 

There should be a goal for the suggestions to put them in focus. 7-8 seconds on shroud sounds nicer than 10 seconds but exactly what does that change considering the current state of combat and the class. More defensive options relative to what? thief? mesmer burst? warrior CC chain and burst? The only defense shroud provides against these things is tanking hits and stun break with FTG and we all know the amount of hp you have in this game is irrelevant.

 

If this were vanilla when everyone really only had a couple high damage direct skills then yea there would be some argument there. Not now that even getting nicked by a DH trap's activation damage (not the trap effect damage) is noticeable. God forbid you get hit by the trap effect damage.

 

5 seconds on reaper and core shroud baseline is the only way and it really is just a start

 

 

[pah.4931]

> @"Ragion.2831" said:

> @"Zietlogik.6208" , thats a surprise i thought you were a warrior main. I remember a pretty decent asuran warrior with that name.

>

> 7-8 seconds isnt enough for core and reaper, it really has to be 5 seconds. If this was vanilla i would agree 7 seconds is ok but the game has changed drastically. Shroud degeneration is higher, damage is higher and there are a lot more opportunities to receive high amounts of damage.

>

> Necro doesnt have an evasive attack, disengage, block, invuln or stealth. There are classes out here that can go invulnerable half the time and still stealth, nearly every other class can disengage from necro at any time, classes are popping passives like Xanax.

>

> I find that people who make necro suggestions dont talk about these problems much (maybe because they all play condi). They mostly focus on improving under performing skills, which is fair in its own right but more than the necro bubble should be considered.

>

> There should be a goal for the suggestions to put them in focus. 7-8 seconds on shroud sounds nicer than 10 seconds but exactly what does that change considering the current state of combat and the class. More defensive options relative to what? thief? mesmer burst? warrior CC chain and burst? The only defense shroud provides against these things is tanking hits and stun break with FTG and we all know the amount of hp you have in this game is irrelevant.

>

> If this were vanilla when everyone really only had a couple high damage direct skills then yea there would be some argument there. Not now that even getting nicked by a DH trap's activation damage (not the trap effect damage) is noticeable. God forbid you get hit by the trap effect damage.

>

> 5 seconds on reaper and core shroud baseline is the only way and it really is just a start

>

>

 

I agree 100% and would even say LF generation should be increased as well. Give necros the playstyle that they are meant to have: shroud dancing to apply pressure and mitigate damage.

 

I see too many posts about reaper damage and being "raid viable" when the shroud mechanic keeps getting nerfed and nerfed into oblivion without any compensation (like you mention, so many other classes get mobility and evades and invulns, etc etc etc). For years Anet devs have used shroud as an excuse not to give necros REAL defensive or mobility skills... it's time we get one or the other. Damage is WAY too high to consider shroud as a defensive mechanic.

[Zietlogik.6208]

> @"Ragion.2831" said:

> @"Zietlogik.6208" , thats a surprise i thought you were a warrior main. I remember a pretty decent asuran warrior with that name.

>

> 7-8 seconds isnt enough for core and reaper, it really has to be 5 seconds. If this was vanilla i would agree 7 seconds is ok but the game has changed drastically. Shroud degeneration is higher, damage is higher and there are a lot more opportunities to receive high amounts of damage.

>

> Necro doesnt have an evasive attack, disengage, block, invuln or stealth. There are classes out here that can go invulnerable half the time and still stealth, nearly every other class can disengage from necro at any time, classes are popping passives like Xanax.

>

> I find that people who make necro suggestions dont talk about these problems much (maybe because they all play condi). They mostly focus on improving under performing skills, which is fair in its own right but more than the necro bubble should be considered.

>

> There should be a goal for the suggestions to put them in focus. 7-8 seconds on shroud sounds nicer than 10 seconds but exactly what does that change considering the current state of combat and the class. More defensive options relative to what? thief? mesmer burst? warrior CC chain and burst? The only defense shroud provides against these things is tanking hits and stun break with FTG and we all know the amount of hp you have in this game is irrelevant.

>

> If this were vanilla when everyone really only had a couple high damage direct skills then yea there would be some argument there. Not now that even getting nicked by a DH trap's activation damage (not the trap effect damage) is noticeable. God forbid you get hit by the trap effect damage.

>

> 5 seconds on reaper and core shroud baseline is the only way and it really is just a start

>

>

 

My main was warrior before HoT came out yes (and I still love my warrior, and probably still have higher playtime on it), the fluidity of Reaper felt the same as a Str/Def/Disc at that time, but I gravitated towards the Reaper due to the smaller, more numerous hits, which stripped aegis and blinds like nothing, making it feel amazing vs guardians and mesmers, but now with the locked 10 second shroud, that fluidity is gone.

 

This is why I am going for the minimum currently of 7-8 seconds, 5 seconds would be great, but the 7-8 is the bare minimum needed to bring back the fluid playstyle it once had, lower is better yes, but I am sure they will not really go for that type of change before testing the waters first

[Ragion.2831]

> @"Zietlogik.6208" said:

> > @"Ragion.2831" said:

> > @"Zietlogik.6208" , thats a surprise i thought you were a warrior main. I remember a pretty decent asuran warrior with that name.

> >

> > 7-8 seconds isnt enough for core and reaper, it really has to be 5 seconds. If this was vanilla i would agree 7 seconds is ok but the game has changed drastically. Shroud degeneration is higher, damage is higher and there are a lot more opportunities to receive high amounts of damage.

> >

> > Necro doesnt have an evasive attack, disengage, block, invuln or stealth. There are classes out here that can go invulnerable half the time and still stealth, nearly every other class can disengage from necro at any time, classes are popping passives like Xanax.

> >

> > I find that people who make necro suggestions dont talk about these problems much (maybe because they all play condi). They mostly focus on improving under performing skills, which is fair in its own right but more than the necro bubble should be considered.

> >

> > There should be a goal for the suggestions to put them in focus. 7-8 seconds on shroud sounds nicer than 10 seconds but exactly what does that change considering the current state of combat and the class. More defensive options relative to what? thief? mesmer burst? warrior CC chain and burst? The only defense shroud provides against these things is tanking hits and stun break with FTG and we all know the amount of hp you have in this game is irrelevant.

> >

> > If this were vanilla when everyone really only had a couple high damage direct skills then yea there would be some argument there. Not now that even getting nicked by a DH trap's activation damage (not the trap effect damage) is noticeable. God forbid you get hit by the trap effect damage.

> >

> > 5 seconds on reaper and core shroud baseline is the only way and it really is just a start

> >

> >

>

> My main was warrior before HoT came out yes (and I still love my warrior, and probably still have higher playtime on it), the fluidity of Reaper felt the same as a Str/Def/Disc at that time, but I gravitated towards the Reaper due to the smaller, more numerous hits, which stripped aegis and blinds like nothing, making it feel amazing vs guardians and mesmers, but now with the locked 10 second shroud, that fluidity is gone.

>

> This is why I am going for the minimum currently of 7-8 seconds, 5 seconds would be great, but the 7-8 is the bare minimum needed to bring back the fluid playstyle it once had, lower is better yes, but I am sure they will not really go for that type of change before testing the waters first

 

Doesnt really matter anyway. They arent going to do it. They would only make a change like that if people complained for several months but since just about every necro went to scourge its the only thing that has been talked about. Reaper Shroud cd reduction is the most brain dead obvious thing that should happen but its not going to effectively making this thread a waste of time.

 

Its a shame cuz i really would like to go back to necro.

 

Its like how they finally acknowledged the hate for passives and power creep when it was a common complaint since early HoT. Reaper has no chance right now. Maybe by early 2020.