The Future of Scourge

[Flubbernaut.9584]

So I've been taking a break off of gw2 for a little bit, life gets in the way, Fornite is quite lit, etc. Etc.

 

When I got back, I realized that Scourge got a little nerf. Nefarious favor getting a longer cd and less cleanse stood out to me the most, but that wasn't the only thing. However, I also noticed a more visible shade ring in pvp, which was really cool.

 

I figured the nerf would hurt a lot and was concerned. I thought scourge would not stand a chance in pvp or at least be brought down massively. I was wrong. Im having a f***ing blast honestly. I still think scourge is op and I'm loving every second of it. Or maybe I'm just used to getting thrown around as a reaper back in 2016 so balance is a foreign concept. Who knows

 

But im beginning to notice a bit of a problematic trend. Scourge is op in pvp yes (at least imo), but only alright in pve. The latest damage benchmarks don't bode well for the scourge on the raiding front if a highly skilled weaver is available.

 

And this is where the problem lies. Anet made sure that scourge had massive damage pre-POF nerf hammer because us necros kept making a fuss about reaper being in such a bad position for all gamemodes (except wvw, we were pretty decent there i guess). The result was a fire-torment unstoppable juggernaut in pvp that mopped the floor. A nerf was inevitable, obviously, and nobody argued against them. Even a lot of us necros wanted a nerf with the mindset that if we didn't get nerfed soon, a bigger nerf would smash us back to the good old days when nobody wanted us in raids. Or pvp. Or really anything other than a condi corrupt in wvw.

 

But Anet found themself in a strange position. The very things that made Scourge so powerful in pvp were what put them at a good position at most in pve. Dhuumfire pulsing for a couple seconds when shades get dropped translated to massive damage, stacking shades on one spot to maximize the damage from shade skills even more so (despite the latter being a glitch). These made us extremely powerful in pvp, but only great at raids. A good analogy would be that we were getting let into raids with about the same enthusiasm as a tempest was back in 2016. We weren't broken in raids like bleed-stacking jagged horror era reapers. Thus, when the nerf to scourge pvp eventually came, Anet was extremely light on us. If they hurt scourge a lot in pvp to properly balance the game, it would translate to an even more massive strike down in pve, possibly destroying any gains the necros got from POF. If they allowed that to happen, the whole necro community would burn flags and riot in the streets. Mike O'brien would get tarred and feathered and fed to the wolves. There would be f***ing outrage.

 

But Anet couldn't let this be the only nerf. Trying to keep scourges good in raids kept them op in pvp, as we have seen from the anticipated POF nerf hammer that didn't nerf us as hard as we all expected. So they had to nerf us again sooner or later.

 

Which brings us to now. That "sooner or later" balance patch came, and yet I am still doing unusually well at pvp (i mean come on, I suck, I shouldn't be able to win 1v3's). Scourge, just my opinion remember, is still at the op tier. However, they are really mediocre at raiding. But Anet has to do something about scourges in pvp or else risk more player dissent coming from other professions (ie pvp soulbeasts bless their hearts). But anything that they can do to balance us in pvp will destroy the possibility for scourges finding a home in raids, which is probably just as horrible as outrage from other professions. Theres a reason why the necro thread has had the most posts from the beginning.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is the future seems not too good. Scourges are going to get nerfed again, no doubt about that. Maybe instead of nerfing both pvp and pve simultaneously, Anet should just split the skills like they've done in the past. Maybe Anet should do massive reworks to the class, such as to staff. Maybe what I'm saying is just a bunch of baseless predictions and scourges are gonna be fine.

 

What do yall think?

[Dadnir.5038]

First of all, some PvP/WvW were just announced, and yes more scourge nerfs.

 

Otherwise, there is 2 reasons why scourge will still feel op in PvP/WvW, as long as anet continue to bandaid fix it's mechanisms instead of reworking them.

- Scourge skills pack to many overlapping traits effects.

- Scourge destroy boons which is something that other professions rely heavily on.

 

As long as even one of these 2 things stand Scourge will still keep it's ower powered feel in PvP/WvW. Anet's staff not being known for it's ability to put their ego aside and aknowledge that they F**k up, scourge will, like you think, continue to sink into trash tier, nerf bat after nerf bat, while still feeling op to anyone that face it in PvP/WvW.

[Anchoku.8142]

Arenanet does not feel like controlling boon spam so they introduced Scourge as a direct counter.

[JustDemons.4358]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> First of all, some PvP/WvW were just announced, and yes more scourge nerfs.

>

> Otherwise, there is 2 reasons why scourge will still feel op in PvP/WvW, as long as anet continue to bandaid fix it's mechanisms instead of reworking them.

> - Scourge skills pack to many overlapping traits effects.

> - Scourge destroy boons which is something that other professions rely heavily on.

>

> As long as even one of these 2 things stand Scourge will still keep it's ower powered feel in PvP/WvW. Anet's staff not being known for it's ability to put their ego aside and aknowledge that they F**k up, scourge will, like you think, continue to sink into trash tier, nerf bat after nerf bat, while still feeling op to anyone that face it in PvP/WvW.

 

But mainly they stay overpowered cuz ppl dont fight agiansst it correctly... use range and cc to constantly pressure and interrupt them without taking any dmg from them... i have enough pvp games where 3 melees rush into mid in the opening fight and then die because they want to facetank the scourge.... it really comes down to team coordination and letting ur stronger range dealing with them.

 

the only thing that is really OP is when the enemy has 2 scourges while u have one or even worse your necro is a power reaper or smth. then things get tricky. but thats a match making issue.... i dont think its a good idea to allow one team 2 necros and the other team only 1

 

[Dadnir.5038]

You didn't understood me, the scourge "feel" op to the one who is in front of him and will always feel op due to the 2 things I listed. It doesn't mean that it really is but this "feeling" that the scourge give is what will lead to more nerf until the next e-spec.

 

For the necromancer barely anything changed in it's playstyle since HoT. Even before HoT, the necromancer mainly exist for the same purpose that he exist now as a scourge: corrupt players boons. The real difference lie in the fact that the scourge is a lot more oppressive due to it's instant shroud skills that give him a lot more quality of life than the shroud in their use.

 

Still in the eyes of it's foes, the scourge appear as an extremly toxic sitting duck that plague everything around him without playing "skillfully". The whole mentality of the necromancer/scourge which is to controle the area and bring down it's foes without giving the feel that he put up a fight is the opposite of what players tend to see as "skillfull" gameplay where one have to either outbrain it's foe or heavily rely on movement and positioning.

 

The necromancer have a design that make other feel like he is overpowered due to it's gameplay being overly passive yet effective against player in a game where mobility have been king since launch. It's a deadlock. Either the necromancer is a freekill with no impact or it will feel op, that's how he is designed and scourge is the pinacle of this.

[JustDemons.4358]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> You didn't understood me, the scourge "feel" op to the one who is in front of him and will always feel op due to the 2 things I listed. It doesn't mean that it really is but this "feeling" that the scourge give is what will lead to more nerf until the next e-spec.

>

> For the necromancer barely anything changed in it's playstyle since HoT. Even before HoT, the necromancer mainly exist for the same purpose that he exist now as a scourge: corrupt players boons. The real difference lie in the fact that the scourge is a lot more oppressive due to it's instant shroud skills that give him a lot more quality of life than the shroud in their use.

>

> Still in the eyes of it's foes, the scourge appear as an extremly toxic sitting duck that plague everything around him without playing "skillfully". The whole mentality of the necromancer/scourge which is to controle the area and bring down it's foes without giving the feel that he put up a fight is the opposite of what players tend to see as "skillfull" gameplay where one have to either outbrain it's foe or heavily rely on movement and positioning.

>

> The necromancer have a design that make other feel like he is overpowered due to it's gameplay being overly passive yet effective against player in a game where mobility have been king since launch. It's a deadlock. Either the necromancer is a freekill with no impact or it will feel op, that's how he is designed and scourge is the pinacle of this.

 

got you :) "Either the necromancer is a freekill with no impact or it will feel op" yea agree.

[Dadnir.5038]

Well, that's the main issue of the necromancer's design, to other it feel like he do a lot without breaking a sweat. It's wrong and for each thing the necromancer do he have to heavily trait, but for other, it will always feel like they have a no-skill player in front of them that smash it's keyboard without even trying to play. The necromancer just don't have the mobility tools to feel like he is a skilled player and that why he will always leave that feeling to others.

 

All in all, it's bad design.

[Jinn Galen.2468]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Well, that's the main issue of the necromancer's design, to other it feel like he do a lot without breaking a sweat. It's wrong and for each thing the necromancer do he have to heavily trait, but for other, it will always feel like they have a no-skill player in front of them that smash it's keyboard without even trying to play. The necromancer just don't have the mobility tools to feel like he is a skilled player and that why he will always leave that feeling to others.

>

> All in all, it's bad design.

 

 

I don't think the boon corruption of necro is bad design. It's just people don't like to be hard countered. I honestly despise those people. How should a pvp game with unique classes be like? Balance everything such that any class can beat any class as long as you outskill the enemy? That's boring and to do that is very difficult. You will eventually have to sacrifice the uniqueness of classes just so everything could be balanced.

[Adenin.5973]

> @"JustDemons.4358" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > First of all, some PvP/WvW were just announced, and yes more scourge nerfs.

> >

> > Otherwise, there is 2 reasons why scourge will still feel op in PvP/WvW, as long as anet continue to bandaid fix it's mechanisms instead of reworking them.

> > - Scourge skills pack to many overlapping traits effects.

> > - Scourge destroy boons which is something that other professions rely heavily on.

> >

> > As long as even one of these 2 things stand Scourge will still keep it's ower powered feel in PvP/WvW. Anet's staff not being known for it's ability to put their ego aside and aknowledge that they F**k up, scourge will, like you think, continue to sink into trash tier, nerf bat after nerf bat, while still feeling op to anyone that face it in PvP/WvW.

>

> But mainly they stay overpowered cuz ppl dont fight agiansst it correctly... use range and cc to constantly pressure and interrupt them without taking any dmg from them... i have enough pvp games where 3 melees rush into mid in the opening fight and then die because they want to facetank the scourge.... it really comes down to team coordination and letting ur stronger range dealing with them.

>

> the only thing that is really OP is when the enemy has 2 scourges while u have one or even worse your necro is a power reaper or smth. then things get tricky. but thats a match making issue.... i dont think its a good idea to allow one team 2 necros and the other team only 1

>

 

Yes, people pop stability and run into the shade crying about getting constantly feared. Problem is that ppl press every skill that grants any sort of boon and then get completely shredded by boon corruption. But can we really blame them? Do they even have a real choice?

 

In other games you don't have these short buffs, you have long lasting 30min+ buffs you can apply for your team. Anet didn't want that because they hated the "buffing phases", where you had to stop to buff your team. They wanted buffs implemented in a way that it would happen naturally during the fight.

 

What we have right now is just chaos. Everyone spams boons to everyone else, without really thinking. This is especially the case in WvW zergs. And the scourge profits from that very simple fact in a brutal way.

 

It's probably far too late in the games lifecycle to address the boon spamming issue or get a complete rework how boons work and how conditions work. So we're stuck with the "rng" behavior of what boons you've on you, what gets corrupted, what condis get cleansed etc. Whatever we have right now it is far more rng than skill- based gameplay

[Axl.8924]

> @"Jinn Galen.2468" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > Well, that's the main issue of the necromancer's design, to other it feel like he do a lot without breaking a sweat. It's wrong and for each thing the necromancer do he have to heavily trait, but for other, it will always feel like they have a no-skill player in front of them that smash it's keyboard without even trying to play. The necromancer just don't have the mobility tools to feel like he is a skilled player and that why he will always leave that feeling to others.

> >

> > All in all, it's bad design.

>

>

> I don't think the boon corruption of necro is bad design. It's just people don't like to be hard countered. I honestly despise those people. How should a pvp game with unique classes be like? Balance everything such that any class can beat any class as long as you outskill the enemy? That's boring and to do that is very difficult. You will eventually have to sacrifice the uniqueness of classes just so everything could be balanced.

 

Personally, i'd love if instead:With the right build and skill you can overcome, instead of any build can just mow down everything, like the way we have hard counters, but there is ways around with other classes.I mean i've heard thieves have trouble with some classes like druids and mesmers, but there is ways around it.Why can't that be the case with necro too?

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Jinn Galen.2468" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > Well, that's the main issue of the necromancer's design, to other it feel like he do a lot without breaking a sweat. It's wrong and for each thing the necromancer do he have to heavily trait, but for other, it will always feel like they have a no-skill player in front of them that smash it's keyboard without even trying to play. The necromancer just don't have the mobility tools to feel like he is a skilled player and that why he will always leave that feeling to others.

> >

> > All in all, it's bad design.

>

>

> I don't think the boon corruption of necro is bad design. It's just people don't like to be hard countered. I honestly despise those people. How should a pvp game with unique classes be like? Balance everything such that any class can beat any class as long as you outskill the enemy? That's boring and to do that is very difficult. You will eventually have to sacrifice the uniqueness of classes just so everything could be balanced.

 

I think you didn't understood me, I didn't meant boon corruption is bad design. Well I do think that the necromancer should mainly have boon ripping and a few boon corruptions to use strategically, but my main point is that the design of the necromancer make the profession somewhat immobile with a "huge reach". In PvP, players like to think that "skill" meant to be able to outdo your ennemy thank to better positionning, mobility and skills use. The necromancer whose mobility is "lacking" just indiscriminately affect it's surrounding, he doesn't appear as a "skilled" one because he doesn't give the feeling of someone that work to obtain it's results.

 

This lead players to despise it. If you had to that the fact that the necromancer have tools that exist to destroy what thoses player thinks as their "due" strength, the necromancer will always feel like an OP lazy bum that other profession will want to see nerfed. That's why I say it's bad design, because the necromancer is bound to always draw the enmity of other onto him, other will always feel that the necromancer's result are to good for what they seem to do.

 

As for scourge's shroud skills, even the shade, it's bad design for the whole game. Having overlapping effects on instant skills with short cool down was probably the worst thing that could happen to the necromancer which was already seen as a character for non skilled players.

 

I'm not saying that they are right to think that way, it's just that it's an unavoidable outcome and the fact that scourge with all it's boon corruption make him almost a "must" have in PvP/WvW will just make things even more sour for other professions as time pass. The complains will never end.