So, do you like the phantasm rework?

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > I dig it for the most part. There are some oddities though. I still find the fact that we can't shatter phantasms really awkward. It makes setting up combos kind of a pain. I find myself wishing it could just shatter the phantasm immediately a lot of times. Specifically the Focus and Staff phantasms. I don't like the Focus phantasm. It ruins everything that was good about it's previous incarnation. It destroyed projectiles, could be traited to reflect them, and would spawn get in the opponent's face to do it's attack which made it excellent for cleaving enemies.

> > >

> > > Now it's ranged which makes it's ability to destroy and reflect projectiles much less useful since chances are it'll be positioned in a completely useless spot for defensive purposes. Not because it's ranged you can't just spawn it in a pack of enemies. Now you absolutely need to pull enemies into it. Before you could just spawn it into a group of enemies, allowing you to save temporal curtain for enemies moving out of position or chaining more projectile reflection. The sword is better cleaving weapon at this point and it's better single target. Overall I don't like anything they did to the focus phantasm.

> > >

> > > I also find the staff one just odd. Not bad, in fact it's quite good. Odd. It's so powerful as a power phantasm when the staff has always been more condition orientated. I just in general miss condition damage's ability to succeed in pvp. I never agreed with how many players just kitten endlessly about condition damage in PvP. It should be a valid part of PvP just like power. Condition mesmers would be more prevalent if the most useful if the best weapon in PvP for a condition damage build had a phantasm that was great for condition damage builds.

> >

> > I learned long ago staff isn’t a condi weapon. It’s more a support/defensive weapon because it tries to do everything at once. But let me tell you, I don’t go into WvW without it. **Phase retreat plus jaunt its life now.**

>

> QFT.

>

> In any case Staff is awesome in hybrid, and the phantasms synergise with this nicely.

 

My only complaint with jaunt is I’d love it to have just a smidge more range. I firmly believe 600 range would be the sweet spot but probably wouldn’t go over well as we could out distance everyone.

 

I like that we get two phantasms but, and could just be me, I feel like they’re doing less damage now than before. Granted my playstyle in WvW is drastically different than most. I would love to see staff and scepter to some love though. Staff needs a small power damage increase and projectile speed increase for the AA, revert chaos storm and armor to the original design or decrease the cd’s. As it is chaos storm is... weak imo and no one wants chaos armor. I use it to maintain protection but loved when it did blind too.

We could do an entire thread, and have about scepter changes.

[Amethyst Lure.5624]

Infinitely more fun, reminds me of why I fell in love with this class in the first place and I moved back to main it. It's not that I enjoy swapping mains or so, that made me alt it, but rather I absolutely abhor passive gameplay. I don't mean to say that playing Chrono in HoT and such was passive (it required and still does require a lot of interaction), but the DPS side - such as it was - was just really poorly designed. In general, gameplay that was not producing quickness and alacrity was stale to me and there were very limited choice with builds.

 

I want to add also that I do not raid, I used to in other games but I just grew tired of the formula that is raid encounters, raid size impact on encounters, and have a bit less time. For the content I do, this change had absolutely no drawbacks to me, and it's a joy to experiment with the class again. So my Yes vote is with that in mind.

[QueenMab.9267]

See, I have a problem with the fact that I enjoyed a passive and defensive Mesmer build. I ran staff with signets, and was happy. Now half of everything I ran has changed, and to be a "proper Condi build" I have to change Specializations too? I would go from the staff to sword and shield, but now I have to entirely rework my build, just to suit the way everybody else went. I made my build 5 years ago, and this is the first time I've truly had an issue with it. When Alacrity was at 66% I didn't care, because I ran PvE and didn't care about Alacrity then and don't now. I just don't enjoy the way it forced me into a corner. You're right, I don't enjoy change, but that's because I had fun with the way I played, maybe in time I'll be okay with it, but it is literally forcing me to entirely change how I play.

[yiksing.9432]

I love it because now i get a choice of what clones i wanted by doing a weapon swap.

[Arlette.9684]

@"Jace al Thor.6745" @"Curunen.8729" I’m starting testing tonight. Will PM with results and dilemas that are bound to pop with such a drastic trait change. It will be more or less defense vs offense across the board and how much ID plays into the equation.

[Levetty.1279]

> @"QueenMab.9267" said:

> See, I have a problem with the fact that I enjoyed a passive and defensive Mesmer build. I ran staff with signets, and was happy. Now half of everything I ran has changed, and to be a "proper Condi build" I have to change Specializations too? I would go from the staff to sword and shield, but now I have to entirely rework my build, just to suit the way everybody else went. I made my build 5 years ago, and this is the first time I've truly had an issue with it. When Alacrity was at 66% I didn't care, because I ran PvE and didn't care about Alacrity then and don't now. I just don't enjoy the way it forced me into a corner. You're right, I don't enjoy change, but that's because I had fun with the way I played, maybe in time I'll be okay with it, but it is literally forcing me to entirely change how I play.

 

I have no idea what content that build could possibly be fun in, especially if you made it 5 years ago.

[Fay.2735]

I like the overall phantasm rework but there is one thing about it that's driving me crazy at the moment and that is how they seem to have neglected to consider how Chronophantasma would work with a non-clone generating focused build (For example Support Chrono in Raids).

 

Basically, if you want to use CP you have to wait a good ~10 seconds for a clone to spawn after you summon a phantasm. Meaning, it either takes forever to setup to do a full continuum rotation (losing precious DPS time) or things are already dead before you get to do so. Not to mention the varied internal timers you somehow have to keep track off (like Chrono's don't have enough to keep track of in raids). It just feels reallly frustrating to me.

 

Sure you can just turn off CP (not use all wells in your CS rotation, or add more clone generating skills) but I feel that the whole point of CP is to work perfectly with phantasm focused builds but it feels awful right now. I love everything else about the phantasm change, it's nice to get to use my class mechanic using a phantasm build but right now it's just a pain in the backside to use CP, I feel it's a big oversight.

 

My suggestion would be to change it so that the clone spawns after the first phantasm dies so that it reduces the time it takes for a clone to spawn to something more reasonable/workable.

 

So the conclusion for me is that because of the CP oversight, I have to say NO. Until they rework CP I do not enjoy the phantasm changes.

 

(Yes I know I can turn it off etc. but I just want them to see this and change this so CP is fun to use again)

[QueenMab.9267]

> @"Levetty.1279" said:

>

> I have no idea what content that build could possibly be fun in, especially if you made it 5 years ago.

 

You may not have seen it as fun, but I did. It only expanded when the way the skills changed, then with the Chronomancer.

[Refia Montes.3205]

> @"QueenMab.9267" said:

> > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> >

> > I have no idea what content that build could possibly be fun in, especially if you made it 5 years ago.

>

> You may not have seen it as fun, but I did. It only expanded when the way the skills changed, then with the Chronomancer.

 

Lemme guess, your playstyle revolved around making tons of Staff Clones, letting them auto attack to deal conditions to open world mobs. Then shattering them whenever its possible and preferably with 3. That's fine and all but in the end, you're not using Mesmer efficiently that way.

 

PS, you can still play your old build btw, and no ones gonna tell you to change to Sword/Shield condi chronomancer (thats laughably worse than Staff condi).

[Refia Montes.3205]

> @"QueenMab.9267" said:

> > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> >

> > I have no idea what content that build could possibly be fun in, especially if you made it 5 years ago.

>

> You may not have seen it as fun, but I did. It only expanded when the way the skills changed, then with the Chronomancer.

 

Lemme guess, your playstyle revolved around making tons of Staff Clones, letting them auto attack to deal conditions to open world mobs. Then shattering them whenever its possible and preferably with 3. That's fine and all but in the end, you're not using Mesmer efficiently that way.

 

PS, you can still play your old build btw since even before you didnt really care about build effectiveness, and no ones gonna tell you to change to Sword/Shield condi chronomancer (thats laughably worse than Staff condi).

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"QueenMab.9267" said:

> See, I have a problem with the fact that I enjoyed a passive and defensive Mesmer build. I ran staff with signets, and was happy. Now half of everything I ran has changed, and to be a "proper Condi build" I have to change Specializations too? I would go from the staff to sword and shield, but now I have to entirely rework my build, just to suit the way everybody else went. I made my build 5 years ago, and this is the first time I've truly had an issue with it. When Alacrity was at 66% I didn't care, because I ran PvE and didn't care about Alacrity then and don't now. I just don't enjoy the way it forced me into a corner. You're right, I don't enjoy change, but that's because I had fun with the way I played, maybe in time I'll be okay with it, but it is literally forcing me to entirely change how I play.

 

There's also the possibility that you simply haven't discovered a version that works for you yet.

 

If you liked the passive phantasm build, you might like mirage. It's better for Condi and staff is remarkably powerful for being our best defense weapon.

 

Just keep 3 clones out and spambush. Easy!

 

I use staff as my swap for open world running a build fairly similar to the meta. It works great! Here's a sample:

 

[altermaven.7385]

Former phanta mesmer here. In the general offset, I felt that the change to phantasms was going to tear things apart build-wise. Now that I've built a mesmer back up from scratch (with a name written in German, nonetheless), I find that for mirages (and to a lesser degree, chronos if you shatter often), the phantasm burst-to-clone methodology definitely opens up more avenues than I, personally, previously anticipated. Torch offhand gives a good sudden stunburst if you can pull it off right; the staff phantasms give you two clones after their casting, and with the appropriate trait, GS phantasm does decent burst while giving you two clones after the attack. However, I do feel for some people, especially those who have been 'sold' onto the phantasm-specific builds as a means of continuous burst damage (like I was at one point), that it takes away the 'persistence' of the phantasms and trades them for burst utilities that give you clones.

 

So the only real hit I felt was the unfortunate loss of my former chrono who was phantasm-heavy. But with some moderate alterations, integration into a shatter-based build may be your saving grace, considering there's quite a few shatter-specific traits in the system already (boonstrip, anyone?). **However**, I feel that the changes to phantasms as an entire sweep could be a bit more fleshed out as a whole, so it's more of a slight jab instead of a punch in the face. But that's me. YMMV.

[GWMO.4785]

Yes? No? Maybe? Something.. idk.

 

It's situational. Personally i feel like phantasms has lost their fundamental reason of existence. Illusionary Avenger and Warden where great for the application they brought. Sure we still have them, they still do their thing... but then they are gone... Like.. why even bother? What do they actually differ from clones now-days?

 

Anyone that says "It's more active playstyle" is lying to themselves. I can do the same rotation before and still upkeep alacrity and quickness. Difference being that you just need to throw in a shatter or two in there. I'd actually dare saying that it is more passive right now. Like before we had to keep in mind which phantasms we had up and be careful not to overwrite it. Or if we did. make sure it was the same type of phanstasm. These days that does not even matter cause alacrity comes after shattering. So its basically go w/e, spam clones and phantasm and smash SoI as often as you can. Traits dont matter either anymore. Cause regardless of your setup, you can play boonshare. You just have to equip Chrono and SoI. So much for your "more active playstyle". Sorry spammable and active are two different things in my dictionary.

 

As for the dps builds. Here too where the phantasms already used and shattered after their initial attack. Which by the looks of it, has not changed. You still do the same thing. And looking at some benchmarks.. dps has not increased much either. From where i see it. Playing mesmer profession.. or chrono boonshare build to be more specific. Has become more noob friendly. Which came with the cost of making it more boring and basically killing the fundamental reasoning of the existence of the phantasms. So yeah, GG people. Drinks all around!

[Levetty.1279]

> @"GWMO.4785" said:

> As for the dps builds. Here too where the phantasms already used and shattered after their initial attack.

Unless you wanted your dps to be sub 10k you did not do that.

 

> And looking at some benchmarks.. dps has not increased much either. From where i see it.

Not only has the DPS increased a lot but it is now actually usable outside of testing Golems.

 

 

[GWMO.4785]

> @"Levetty.1279" said:

> Unless you wanted your dps to be sub 10k you did not do that.

> Not only has the DPS increased a lot but it is now actually usable outside of testing Golems.

Unless you tunnel vision yourself to "Guild X scored the highest this way" and thus mindlessly copy/paste what they have chewed it up for you. You would adopt corresponding to your group composition. I personally like to be a bit more usefull and thus i do use my Diversion (F3) for the daze. As for outside the golem. That is/was already the case given mesmer is/was dishing out alot of torment and confusion. Which makes that point kinda invalid.

[Levetty.1279]

> @"GWMO.4785" said:

> > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > Unless you wanted your dps to be sub 10k you did not do that.

> > Not only has the DPS increased a lot but it is now actually usable outside of testing Golems.

> Unless you tunnel vision yourself to "Guild X scored the highest this way" and thus mindlessly copy/paste what they have chewed it up for you. You would adopt corresponding to your group composition. I personally like to be a bit more usefull and thus i do use my Diversion (F3) for the daze. As for outside the golem. That is/was already the case given mesmer is/was dishing out alot of torment and confusion. Which makes that point kinda invalid.

 

I'm all for off meta builds but it sounds like you were using an absolute terrible build just so you can say you were unique. I'm sorry but your small amounts of daze isn't making up for the build being terrible at everything else.

 

If we are talking about Mirage, which you seem to be now to save face, I'm not sure why you are bringing it up in a conversation about the Phantasm changes. Except that the phantasm changes now gave it extra skills to use.

[Refia Montes.3205]

> @"GWMO.4785" said:

> As for the dps builds. Here too where the phantasms already used and shattered after their initial attack. Which by the looks of it, has not changed. You still do the same thing. And looking at some benchmarks.. dps has not increased much either. From where i see it. Playing mesmer profession.. or chrono boonshare build to be more specific. Has become more noob friendly. Which came with the cost of making it more boring and basically killing the fundamental reasoning of the existence of the phantasms. So yeah, GG people. Drinks all around!

 

Tell me the difference between this: [new Power Chrono DPS](

) vs [old 3 button rotation base mesmer](

). No I'm not talking about the numbers (which increased by the way by a significant amount)but purely how the rotation just worked.

 

As for support builds, it really doesn't matter since it is the same rotation with Shatters included.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"GWMO.4785" said:

> > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > Unless you wanted your dps to be sub 10k you did not do that.

> > Not only has the DPS increased a lot but it is now actually usable outside of testing Golems.

> Unless you tunnel vision yourself to "Guild X scored the highest this way" and thus mindlessly copy/paste what they have chewed it up for you. You would adopt corresponding to your group composition. I personally like to be a bit more usefull and thus i do use my Diversion (F3) for the daze. As for outside the golem. That is/was already the case given mesmer is/was dishing out alot of torment and confusion. Which makes that point kinda invalid.

 

Maybe. But you have to be careful when sacrificing damage for other considerations. This is a non-trinity game, which unfortunately means that the vast majority of builds are DPS builds. In trinity games it's generally the tanks and healers that have the highest impact, but aside from a handful of support builds that are particularly high-impact, it's DPS that carries the group in GW2.

 

I'm mostly a solo player. I have barely done any raiding and I'm not even to personal fractal level 100 after more than 2 years playing the game. So I know all about non-meta builds, thinking outside the box and all that. But if you want to deal damage (and if you want to help your group, you should!), the meta is likely to be pretty close to optimized for that purpose. Of course you want to tweak it a bit to adapt the build to open world play, but sacrificing too much damage is likely to marginalize your role in a group for most builds.