Fractal builds and guides [dT]

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > > > > > > @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > > > > > > While there is alot of truth to this, there is also a reason 4 man necro +1 druid fractal parties were popular. Or why you can tank SH with swapping 1 trait. Being beefy is pretty good and you cannot fully disregard this.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Not having all raid bosses being turned into glorified golems would also help alot. Or weaver being so good in fractals.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > same can be said about 4 hammer guards 1 druid or other nonsense like that. and they apart from braindead build also have blocks, reflects, invulns.

> > > > > > you can make the same case about virtually any class.

> > > > >

> > > > > However, 4 necros is a thing I've seen in the lfg, 4 guards isn't. I wouldn't play either, but the point stands.

> > > >

> > > > Outcasts tend to search for a safehaven, and often only find it amongst each other!

> > > > Hmmm, come to think of it, it's one of the only things that _does_ fit the Necro's design: being the outcasts/pariah of all classes! ....

> > >

> > > Oh, poor outcast necromancers... the kings of wvw.

> >

> > How many times do I have to say that PvE, WvW and PvP are complete different game modes, and ANet has proven before and will again in their next patch that they _can_ balance these game modes separately. So for all I care, you could regard them as different games altogether! So, in that case you're remark is as valuable as saying: **"Oh, poor outcast necromancers... the kings of Diablo 3!"**

> > There are even different forums for it (just like Diablo 3 has, btw :) ).

>

> Kek. But it is still the same game. The professions are the same, and their core designs are the same. Necromancer revolves around conditions and corruption. This makes it inherently stronger in pvp modes, because you primarily find boons on players, and inherently weaker in pve, for the same reason. You can't change that unless you split not just the skills, but the very concepts of the classes across game modes. Which is nether feasible, nor needed.

 

That's somewhat narrow-minded though, there are plenty of ways to fix that, without touching the "very concepts of the classes across game modes".

**1st example**: in fractals there are already quite a few encounters that are quite boon-heavy, intensify that even further! And definitely introduce a **LOT** more boons into raids. Furthermore, HEAVILY buff the boon corruption on Necros _in PvE_, just like they've already proven they can easily do, but then the other way around (instead of heavily nerfing it, which they did and are going to do in WvW and PvP).

**2nd example**: Simply improve pretty much ALL condi skills on the Necro _in PvE_ (application, duration, etc.), So that for once, _they_ are the condi kings in PvE, instead of ... and I can hardly even grasp it at the moment out of all the classes: ... the mesmer (mirage) (because they didn't already have optimal builds, right ... hell, even their [power chrono build](https://discretize.eu/builds/mesmer/power-chronomancer) does insane dps, which a Necro can only awe at).

**3rd example**: complete different take: let the Necro be able to rise the cap on (certain) conditions : i.e.: 25 stacks of vuln. becomes 35 _in PvE_, 30 _in WvW/PvP_. It still fits the Necro theme very well!

**4th example**: Every damaging condition the Necro has on itself does intensify that same condition on foes around him. And the more stacks the Necro has on itself the more it gets intensified on those foes! I'd really like to see such gameplay, because then the extra health is really something you'd really need, and is far more interesting in _PvE environments_ than PvP or WvW

**5th example**: The only reason that Necro's are pretty much _viable_ (and in 1 or 2 occasions even optimal) in raids is because of _one skill_ only: Epidemic. Which is ridiculous on its own, even the Banner Slave evolves around (at least) double that amount (and that particular build is the absolute definition of one-trick pony)! I'd say make the whole corruption or even better Spectral line a more condi intensifying line for foes in the area (bit like Epi, buty less powerful), but very important **also** for the target itself. I.e.: for every different condi on foe, apply a stack of poison to everyone in ... radius, including target itself: HALF the amount!!! And/or: half the amount of torment of targeted foe is added as stacks of bleeding to everyone in ... radius, including target itself: HALF the amount!!! .... Etc. Again, a bit the idea of Epi, but less powerful in actual stacks of condis and most importantly also affecting the target itself (by a lower amount)!!! So it becomes more viable in boss-fights (dominating Fractals and Raids).

 

And these are all examples that would imo improve the condi/corruption nature of the Necro ... which is in your opinion is what the Necro "revolves" around. I'm not even talking about the very much needed improvements on the power (Reaper) side of things, which is imo even in a worse state atm (to put it mildly, because let's be honest, the power necro/reaper is an absolute joke across **all** game modes)!

[Feanor.2358]

The problem is all those examples end up with necros being mandatory. If we learned anything from Druids, it is "don't make any more profession-specific unique damage buffs". Personally, my first thought would be making possible a moderate-damage off-healer working through barrier. It's raid-only, but it's a start. For pure damage spec, especially applicable in fractals, I don't really know. Changing the fractals themselves to fit the necro would simply lead to necros reigning supreme from t1 all the way to cms. Making Reaper a power spec would be a possible solution, but eh... all the efforts at that have failed so far.

[Geisterlicht.6083]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > > > > > > > @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > > > > > > > While there is alot of truth to this, there is also a reason 4 man necro +1 druid fractal parties were popular. Or why you can tank SH with swapping 1 trait. Being beefy is pretty good and you cannot fully disregard this.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Not having all raid bosses being turned into glorified golems would also help alot. Or weaver being so good in fractals.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > same can be said about 4 hammer guards 1 druid or other nonsense like that. and they apart from braindead build also have blocks, reflects, invulns.

> > > > > > > you can make the same case about virtually any class.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > However, 4 necros is a thing I've seen in the lfg, 4 guards isn't. I wouldn't play either, but the point stands.

> > > > >

> > > > > Outcasts tend to search for a safehaven, and often only find it amongst each other!

> > > > > Hmmm, come to think of it, it's one of the only things that _does_ fit the Necro's design: being the outcasts/pariah of all classes! ....

> > > >

> > > > Oh, poor outcast necromancers... the kings of wvw.

> > >

> > > How many times do I have to say that PvE, WvW and PvP are complete different game modes, and ANet has proven before and will again in their next patch that they _can_ balance these game modes separately. So for all I care, you could regard them as different games altogether! So, in that case you're remark is as valuable as saying: **"Oh, poor outcast necromancers... the kings of Diablo 3!"**

> > > There are even different forums for it (just like Diablo 3 has, btw :) ).

> >

> > Kek. But it is still the same game. The professions are the same, and their core designs are the same. Necromancer revolves around conditions and corruption. This makes it inherently stronger in pvp modes, because you primarily find boons on players, and inherently weaker in pve, for the same reason. You can't change that unless you split not just the skills, but the very concepts of the classes across game modes. Which is nether feasible, nor needed.

>

> That's somewhat narrow-minded though, there are plenty of ways to fix that, without touching the "very concepts of the classes across game modes".

> **1st example**: in fractals there are already quite a few encounters that are quite boon-heavy, intensify that even further! And definitely introduce a **LOT** more boons into raids. Furthermore, HEAVILY buff the boon corruption on Necros _in PvE_, just like they've already proven they can easily do, but then the other way around (instead of heavily nerfing it, which they did and are going to do in WvW and PvP).

> **2nd example**: Simply improve pretty much ALL condi skills on the Necro _in PvE_ (application, duration, etc.), So that for once, _they_ are the condi kings in PvE, instead of ... and I can hardly even grasp it at the moment out of all the classes: ... the mesmer (mirage) (because they didn't already have optimal builds, right ... hell, even their [power chrono build](https://discretize.eu/builds/mesmer/power-chronomancer) does insane dps, which a Necro can only awe at).

> **3rd example**: complete different take: let the Necro be able to rise the cap on (certain) conditions : i.e.: 25 stacks of vuln. becomes 35 _in PvE_, 30 _in WvW/PvP_. It still fits the Necro theme very well!

> **4th example**: Every damaging condition the Necro has on itself does intensify that same condition on foes around him. And the more stacks the Necro has on itself the more it gets intensified on those foes! I'd really like to see such gameplay, because then the extra health is really something you'd really need, and is far more interesting in _PvE environments_ than PvP or WvW

> **5th example**: The only reason that Necro's are pretty much _viable_ (and in 1 or 2 occasions even optimal) in raids is because of _one skill_ only: Epidemic. Which is ridiculous on its own, even the Banner Slave evolves around (at least) double that amount (and that particular build is the absolute definition of one-trick pony)! I'd say make the whole corruption or even better Spectral line a more condi intensifying line for foes in the area (bit like Epi, buty less powerful), but very important **also** for the target itself. I.e.: for every different condi on foe, apply a stack of poison to everyone in ... radius, including target itself: HALF the amount!!! And/or: half the amount of torment of targeted foe is added as stacks of bleeding to everyone in ... radius, including target itself: HALF the amount!!! .... Etc. Again, a bit the idea of Epi, but less powerful in actual stacks of condis and most importantly also affecting the target itself (by a lower amount)!!! So it becomes more viable in boss-fights (dominating Fractals and Raids).

>

> And these are all examples that would imo improve the condi/corruption nature of the Necro ... which is in your opinion is what the Necro "revolves" around. I'm not even talking about the very much needed improvements on the power (Reaper) side of things, which is imo even in a worse state atm (to put it mildly, because let's be honest, the power necro/reaper is an absolute joke across **all** game modes)!

 

In experienced fractal groups, power burst is king and any condi buffs wont help you with those players.

 

For fractals the first 5-15s burst window is the most important, as bosses usually phase after that.

 

 

Edit: And the 3rd proposal is way over the top, you realize that druid GotL got removed because it provided a 10% dmg boost?

We need less group dmg modifiers, not more.

[Henry.5713]

All they have to do for scourges in raids is to buff their damage by around 10-15%. Giving them numbers of around 33k-34k and thus a respectable spot in your squad with everything else they can do. Don't mind a unique effect like the increased vulnerability either. Though, 10% increased damage taken from your entire squad during the entire fight seems a little too much.

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

 

> You'd have to give up the larger health pool and the shroud for that. They don't matter much at the high skill levels, but they are a huge advantage at the low ones.

 

No. Scourge already doesn't have shroud and warrior has the same health pool, and scourge still doesn't hit even 30k on golem. (and has inferior support). Also light armor has lower defense value than heavy armor. Don't start with epidemic argument because I will start with big hitbox weaver argument.

Back to reaper - shroud is in dps rotation, life force is not used for defense, I could literally play without it and I wouldn't feel the difference.

I feel the difference when I don't have access to blocks/bonus evades on skills. I feel difference when my mobility is non-existant. I feel the difference when I'm giving my best and it's still not enough because of the performance cap of the class being so ridiculously low. I feel difference when I can't provide useful combo fields and blast finishers.

And we already talked about this. This is a case of terrible balance and negligence, not a case of "we can't buff it because it has 2nd hp bar hurr durr"

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> All they have to do for scourges in raids is to buff their damage by around 10-15%. Giving them numbers of around 33k-34k and thus a respectable spot in your squad with everything else they can do.

 

That's what I meant with my 1st, 2nd and 5th example. The outcome should indeed be comparable to numbers that other condi classes put out now, maybe a little bit above that, cause well ... after all this time, the Necro kinda deserves it! The examples itself were just a means to an end.

For the 3rd example it's the key that you mold it in some kind of debuff on foes that is not only unique to the Necro. Maybe give thief and engi the same thing, but for them more difficult to apply and maintain. Now we're getting into details, but imo, none of all these unique party/squad-wide effects should exist on one class only! All of these (from banner to spirit, from empowerment to spotter) should have a(n) (exact) duplicate somewhere else (preferably on 3 or 4 different classes), but more difficult to apply and maintain. kind of a matrix solution.

The 4th example would be really unique to Necro _as a playstyle_ (maybe not even that much, because of Holo, which is more power focused though), but should make him the absolute condi king reflecting a punishing vs. rewarding playstyle.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> The problem is all those examples end up with necros being mandatory.

 

I beg to differ: yes, you can insanely overpower all examples, so they would be (kinda like mesmer, ranger, warrior and ele now). But that's the thing, they all have very good limiting options that allow you to tweak the Necro to just be important, _not_ mandatory.

I.e. example 1: You can still take your Mesmer or Spellbreaker to remove boons, it would just have no extra benefits, compared to the Necro that then would put out major dps because of it! Or in other words, the (very long sitting) current meta can still get the job done and still be very fast at it (don't forget, Chrono is already taking the boon removal job on him, as well as the new and improved BS), _slightly_ slower though, compared to if you would've taken a Necro with you!

2nd example: Purely buffing the condi side of the Necro (Scourge), if you buff them to output the exact same dps as a condi Mirage or Firebrand, it's another viable option to tag along in a raid squad (and to a lesser extend fractal party), just like a condi Mirage and Firebrand is ...

Example 3, see post above... Etc.!

 

And then again, all these examples are ideas with condi improvement in mind. But like you said, ANet might not even want to think about improving the Necro for condis. Wouldnt be surprised there, cause it would only make sense to see the Necro as a condi master, so ANet would then probably think the exact opposite ... Joking aside: I wouldnt be surprised if literally _all_ classes at the very moment has a better condi build available (DPS wise) than the Necro (I know for certain [Mesmer, Revenant, Firebrand, Engi, Thief, Warrior and Ranger](https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/) has) ... Which is just _really_ sad!. But please give the Necro _something_!!! As you already said yourself, maybe Barrier being offensive AND defensive support might be the key, although it would only fix the Scourge! Or maybe the whole blood line should have far better heal coefficient and Vampiric Pressence should be stripped from its ICD. I don't know exactly, but the possibilities are endless!

[Feanor.2358]

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind buffing necros reasonably. Mirage alternative? Completely fine, heck even make them stronger considering how easy to play clone mirage is. **As long as it doesn't make epi bounce completely broken**. Unfortunately the very thing we're using necros for - epidemic - is what is holding them back.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Don't get me wrong, I don't mind buffing necros reasonably. Mirage alternative? Completely fine, heck even make them stronger considering how easy to play clone mirage is. **As long as it doesn't make epi bounce completely broken**. Unfortunately the very thing we're using necros for - epidemic - is what is holding them back.

 

Agree!