PvP makes no sense in this game.

[ButterPeanut.9746]

> @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

> > It's currently a condi meta, as long as you are more aware of it and bring cleanses/resistance it becomes less problematic.

> I don't know which game you are playing but since the last update you can barely see any condi builds except a few scourges here and there.

>

 

Agreed. Maybe at lower tiers. At high level there is really only 1 viable condi class right now, and that is scourge.

[Saikonaut.2831]

> @"Malafaia.8903" said:

> This topic makes no sense.

>

> 1 - Condition damage is again a secondary source of damage, except for Scourge (since the playerbase cried like there's no tomorrow for this)

 

I disagree, condition damage is the primary source of damage I take in a given sPvP match, typically from AoE attacks (not just aimed; many attacks hit 3-5 people within a certain range, for example).

 

> 2 - AoEs are MUCH more present in PvE than PvP.

 

More present, but not more damage, so you missed the point. AoE isn't a problem as a mechanic, it's how much of the total damage _in PvP_ these abilities account for, and how easy it is to do without having to even decide on a target. Like I mentioned above, many abilities just attack everyone around you even without having to aim an AoE circle. I don't notice AoE in PvE doing absurd damage like it is in PvP, probably because NPCs don't hit as hard, and aren't as exploitative as real players. If PvE was as clunky as PvP in this game, this post would probably be about the combat in general, not just about PvP.

 

> 3 - Lowering (more) condition damage won't bring skill level up. In fact it will just simplify the combat system and make people worry only about power damage.

 

I disagree, it'll make more keypresses required to win, and winning will take more time/effort, thus making it more complex not simplified.

 

> 4 - You're looking for "rotations" in PvP?

 

Yes. Although I understand why you might prefer mindless button-mashing instead – it's way easier.

 

> 5 - Another topic from someone who are being beaten hard in PvP, don't want to learn and are bashing the combat mechanics/ power creep/ conditions.

 

At least you admit I'm not the only one. If everybody is saying the same thing, bashing the mechanics, then is it possible the mechanics are flawed?

 

> 6 - Point me an MMO nowadays that are more technical/ reactive than GW2 with all the conditions/ cleanses, stuns/ stunbreakers, power/ blocks.

 

This question is totally irrelevant, but, WoW, Blade & Soul, Tera, and ESO would be a few. The latter three require aiming for everything like an FPS. Of course all of these MMOs have stuns, dots, etc. as well, most MMOs do now. WoW is more complicated too because CC rotations are more important where they are non-existent in GW2, and because holy trinity gameplay (aka "separation of concerns") requires more orchestration than not separating combat roles. I consider GW2 PvP better than FF14 though – FF14's PvP is pretty unplayable. The reason I'm not playing WoW or other MMOs is because their PvP mechanics are at or near their ceilings of potential – I can't see these other MMOs getting that much better. GW2 has a much higher potential than WoW, the game seems like it's more willing to be PvP-oriented than the others, and with more tuning GW2 could be the best PvP MMO.

[Malafaia.8903]

> @"Saikonaut.2831" said:

> > @"Malafaia.8903" said:

> > This topic makes no sense.

> >

> > 1 - Condition damage is again a secondary source of damage, except for Scourge (since the playerbase cried like there's no tomorrow for this)

>

> I disagree, condition damage is the primary source of damage I take in a given sPvP match, typically from AoE attacks (not just aimed; many attacks hit 3-5 people within a certain range, for example).

>

> > 2 - AoEs are MUCH more present in PvE than PvP.

>

> More present, but not more damage, so you missed the point. AoE isn't a problem as a mechanic, it's how much of the total damage _in PvP_ these abilities account for, and how easy it is to do without having to even decide on a target. Like I mentioned above, many abilities just attack everyone around you even without having to aim an AoE circle. I don't notice AoE in PvE doing absurd damage like it is in PvP, probably because NPCs don't hit as hard, and aren't as exploitative as real players. If PvE was as clunky as PvP in this game, this post would probably be about the combat in general, not just about PvP.

>

> > 3 - Lowering (more) condition damage won't bring skill level up. In fact it will just simplify the combat system and make people worry only about power damage.

>

> I disagree, it'll make more keypresses required to win, and winning will take more time/effort, thus making it more complex not simplified.

>

> > 4 - You're looking for "rotations" in PvP?

>

> Yes. Although I understand why you might prefer mindless button-mashing instead – it's way easier.

>

> > 5 - Another topic from someone who are being beaten hard in PvP, don't want to learn and are bashing the combat mechanics/ power creep/ conditions.

>

> At least you admit I'm not the only one. If everybody is saying the same thing, bashing the mechanics, then is it possible the mechanics are flawed?

>

> > 6 - Point me an MMO nowadays that are more technical/ reactive than GW2 with all the conditions/ cleanses, stuns/ stunbreakers, power/ blocks.

>

> This question is totally irrelevant, but, WoW, Blade & Soul, Tera, and ESO would be a few. The latter three require aiming for everything like an FPS. Of course all of these MMOs have stuns, dots, etc. as well, most MMOs do now. WoW is more complicated too because CC rotations are more important where they are non-existent in GW2, and because holy trinity gameplay (aka "separation of concerns") requires more orchestration than not separating combat roles. I consider GW2 PvP better than FF14 though – FF14's PvP is pretty unplayable. The reason I'm not playing WoW or other MMOs is because their PvP mechanics are at or near their ceilings of potential – I can't see these other MMOs getting that much better. GW2 has a much higher potential than WoW, the game seems like it's more willing to be PvP-oriented than the others, and with more tuning GW2 could be the best PvP MMO.

 

Dude, you are just throwing random arguments that makes no sense at all. Just to point some of them:

 

1 - Only profession with a condition build that are better than power is Scourge. Even mesmers aren't running condi anymore.

2 - More or less damage? What are you talking about? Did you even notice the health pools on mobs X health pools on players?

3 - Tell me how REMOVING one source of damage and counter damage will result in "more keypresses"?

4 - Rotations means you have predefined keys to press in a row. PvP is all about reacting, dodging, stunbreaking, cleansing, bursting. How can this be "button-mashing"? If you're playing on Gold+ (not even talking about Plat yet) you sure know that button-mashing will make you dead in less than 5 seconds.

 

Just stop. You're not making sense at all.

[thatdarnkatz.7168]

If you want to understand people that say that ele isn't useless in the current meta (No it's not optimal) or how people say that knowing classes and builds really make a difference, I'd like to leave this here. Wooden Potatoes got to number 3 on the leaderboards on NA this season on a fresh air ele and EXPLAINS how he plays each game, strats he uses, how classes work, and everything that people complain about here gets answered. Please don't respond to this until you have watched at LEAST 1 of these videos, because they are relevant to literally most comments in this thread and prove that many don't know what they are talking about.

 

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

It's been mentioned before but I'll add to it:

Unlike WoW, GW2's primary intended feature of combat in PvP is that there are no rotations. You see something and you react. You feint and cancel attacks and punish when you see openings; you don't just run a rotation and whoever's class/build is worse into the matchup loses. One of the core pillars of the game is that you do not react to bars and status icons but rather what the enemy character is actually doing.

 

At least, that's how it's supposed to work. Largely since HoT, things have gotten a lot more predictable since as far as rotational play goes. The bigger problem is that the amount of effort required to sustain while being immune to punishment/with low risk and deal huge damage have come at increasingly lower costs over the years. Dominant builds have no windows of weakness because windows of weakness are not optimal for PvE, which is what ANet seems to be focused on balancing as far as numbers go, despite being such a bad idea for so many reasons and only enabling a handful of builds while others have huge disparities between them.

 

There is too much AoE and boon application and condition damage in the game because of ever-increasing demands for more stats/damage by people optimizing PvE or defending broken mechanics in PvP. "For Great Justice" used to be good, and it got buffed into what it is now, which is still trash. Passives were a problem when you could react to things and punish a foe's missteps or thought you were safe to go all-in to finish them off; random immunity with no tell removes all viability from said high-risk styles of play. Unfortunately, the numbers in the game are getting so insane, a lot of professions are downright depending on these mechanics to not just instantly die to others, and basically everyone is running around one-shotting people or being immune to damage as a consequence.

 

I'd really, really like to return to the core game. The gameplay as of now is just too convoluted and has invalidated a lot of variety.

[Kondor.2904]

Why would gw2 pvp slow down its pace if it's the exact thing that differentiates it from the other games ? You can always go back to FF14 or WoW for that slow paced rotational pvp, right ?

[Flauvious.6195]

Imo they should completely remove the "condition damage" stat, remove damage condis from many abilities (especially auto attacks) and make condition damage a supplement to direct damage rather than something to focus on. This way it's useful against high armor targets while not making much of a difference vs low armor targets.

 

Then redo the damage formula to make armor actually make a noticeable reduction in damage taken to reward people sacrificing damage for defense.

 

And then heavily nerf sustain. Currently the live forever builds dont live forever because of their armor, blocks, evades, or even invulns. Bunker firebrand still dies in a couple seconds if he just stands there. Bunker builds live forever because of unlimited self heal. All heal skills across the board get double cd's, and most extra ability heals like druids staff, ca, and firebrand times are changed to only affect allies.

 

Now things live longer, but you can actually have a feel for when they're about to die instead of getting them to 10% hp only for them to heal to full a second later. Now you have to rely on a teammate dedicated to healing if you want to be healed. No more single person sustaining indefinitely alone on a point, doing no damage and prolonging fights until the end of time.

[Saikonaut.2831]

> @"Malafaia.8903" said:

> Dude, you are just throwing random arguments that makes no sense at all.

 

If they make no sense then why are these arguments mirrored in hundreds of posts on various game forums including this one? Google it. You will find endless Reddits, forum posts, etc. where everyone is complaining about the exact same things regarding GW2 PvP. Perhaps you're in denial or don't have any other MMO experience when it comes to competitive PvP.

 

> 2 - More or less damage? What are you talking about? Did you even notice the health pools on mobs X health pools on players?

 

What am I talking about? Go read it. Others understood it, you seem to be the only confused one here. Your refusal to read and understand is not an argument. I dismissed (but still addressed) the comment about AoE occurring more often in PvE than in PvP because AoE doesn't feel like a problem in PvE. You don't typically get burned down in 2 seconds due to stacked AoE by mobs – you often can in sPvP by players which are always going to be more exploitative than an NPC. I'm just repeating myself here because you didn't read above, thanks for that.

 

> 3 - Tell me how REMOVING one source of damage and counter damage will result in "more keypresses"?

 

Well it's super simple, I don't even understand how you don't get it: The argument I was responding to put forth that if more damage came from single-target abilities than condition damage that the game would be "too simple". My counter to that is that it takes less keypresses and decision-making to apply conditions – especially the plethora of those which are automatically applied – than it would be to have to press a key each time you want to cause damage. Does that make sense now for you?

 

> 4 - Rotations means you have predefined keys to press in a row. PvP is all about reacting, dodging, stunbreaking, cleansing, bursting.

 

I don't know if you realize, but you're directly contradicting yourself here. "It's not about rotations! It's about dodging at the right time and then bursting!" That's like saying, "it's not about hamburgers! It's all about buns, lettuce, burger, onions, tomatoes, pickles, and ketchup!" You're just listing out different rotations (e.g. burst rotations, avoidance rotations). Tell me, are you paying attention to the order of those abilities when you're "bursting!"? When you are trying to avoid damage, does it matter what you cast and in what order? I think you'll find the answer is an obvious "yes" unless you are button-mashing. The idea that combat isn't about rotations just isn't true. I agree that combat rotations are _broken_ in PvP (hence this post), if that's what you mean.

 

> Just stop. You're not making sense at all.

 

You might have a learning disability then, because my posts haven't really lacked clarity, and others seem to understand what I'm saying just fine, even if they disagree.

[witcher.3197]

> @"Kondor.2904" said:

> Why would gw2 pvp slow down its pace if it's the exact thing that differentiates it from the other games ? You can always go back to FF14 or WoW for that slow paced rotational pvp, right ?

 

GW2 PvP was always fast, but it's nearing unplayable levels. It's just not healthy for the game.

[Saikonaut.2831]

> @"Kondor.2904" said:

> Why would gw2 pvp slow down its pace if it's the exact thing that differentiates it from the other games ? You can always go back to FF14 or WoW for that slow paced rotational pvp, right ?

 

WoW is like surfing a giant wave, epic yet moving at a nice smooth pace. GW2 is like barely hanging onto a jet ski whose throttle is stuck as it speeds across a choppy lake. In both cases you're going 30mph across water but the latter feels out of control and less fun.

 

FF14 is a canoe idling in a peaceful pond.... ooo a turtle!

 

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"thatdarnkatz.7168" said:

> If you want to understand people that say that ele isn't useless in the current meta (No it's not optimal{ or how people say that knowing classes and builds really make a difference, I'd like to leave this here. Wooden Potatoes got to number 3 on the leaderboards on NA this season on a fresh air ele and EXPLAINS how he plays each game, strats he uses, how classes work, and everything that people complain about here gets answered. Please don't respond to this until you have watched at LEAST 1 of these videos, because they are relevant to literally most comments in this thread and prove that many don't know what they are talking about.

>

>

 

Yeah NA.. hehe... If you want to make an argument that his placing means anything, let him do this on EU at least.

 

 

[BABE.6384]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

 

> Yeah NA.. hehe... If you want to make an argument that his placing means anything, let him do this on EU at least.

>

 

NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK NA EU BROKEBACK

[Odik.4587]

I have legit question , why you talk about 'pvp' while entire PVP is all about wintrading that never been punished ? As Metrix said , they are too busy with their gemshop

[Kasdwer.3721]

> @"Saikonaut.2831" said:

> This question is totally irrelevant, but, WoW, Blade & Soul, Tera, and ESO would be a few. The latter three require aiming for everything like an FPS. Of course all of these MMOs have stuns, dots, etc. as well, most MMOs do now. WoW is more complicated too because CC rotations are more important where they are non-existent in GW2, and because holy trinity gameplay (aka "separation of concerns") requires more orchestration than not separating combat roles. I consider GW2 PvP better than FF14 though – FF14's PvP is pretty unplayable. The reason I'm not playing WoW or other MMOs is because their PvP mechanics are at or near their ceilings of potential – I can't see these other MMOs getting that much better. GW2 has a much higher potential than WoW, the game seems like it's more willing to be PvP-oriented than the others, and with more tuning GW2 could be the best PvP MMO.

 

i dont think you played wow pvp much when you say "its near their ceilings of potential", its a butchered abonimation from what once it was, they removed every mechanic and ability that somehow had outplay potential and made it a moba, but without skillshots, map awereness, creeping, map control, or anything that requires skill in a moba

i cant legit see a difference between a new player and someone who is 2k rating, only after 2,6k+ you see them working better together as a team, which means chaining cc and deff cds from one to another, and thats literally the only thing that requires skill now, it has no individual skill anymore, its just who can trust their team better and/or played longer together

i cant really say anything to tera and blade soul because i barely played them, ESO is practically the same as wow but without the cc and an even more clunkier combat which doesnt feel fluid at all

 

 

[Saikonaut.2831]

> @"Kasdwer.3721" said:

> i dont think you played wow pvp much when you say "its near their ceilings of potential", its a butchered abonimation from what once it was, they removed every mechanic and ability that somehow had outplay potential and made it a moba, but without skillshots, map awereness, creeping, map control, or anything that requires skill in a moba

 

Yes I played WoW for years, since it was released in 2004 until around a year ago. I agree with your comment here, and that's precisely what I meant when i said WoW is at its ceiling of potential. I mean – Blizzard bought MLG. They pretty much have to do what they're doing, that's what they decided. GW2/ArenaNet isn't bound by any conflicts like that I'm aware of. I agree too that WoW PvP was better in the past – 2007-2009 (BC-Wrath) esp. Arena S1-3 were most exciting/full of players and strategy, and you did a great job of pointing out what has changed since then.