WHIRLING DEFENSE should be moving skill and not a "Sitting Duck"

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"OGDeadHead.8326" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > Fine if you want to move if it makes the skill more usable, but that coefficient better come down lol.

> >

> > Backstab coefficient? 2.4

> > Hundred Blades Coefficient? 4.62 + 1.21 (5.83)

> > ...

> > WD Coefficient? 7.92 + vuln + projectile reflect + whirl finisher lol

>

> And how often can you use said skills within, lets say, 1 minute? So yeah, lol to you to.

>

> What a joke...

 

Um... the only environment where using skills over and over again over the course of a minute matters is PvE, to which this change doesn't concern anyone because there's little reason to move. By your logic, utility skills are all underpowered if they have anything above an 8s cooldown because of how often they can be used.

 

Shadowstep on thief on a 20s cooldown seems real balanced then, right? No? Why?

 

7.92 + retal + vuln + projectile reflect + whirl on a 360 degree AoE at 180 radius that's mobile is massively overloaded on a single skill for an offhand weapon and you're delusional if you think it isn't.

 

Hell, the skill is called whirling DEFENSE. It's supposed to function as a zoning tool for area denial, not some kind of mega-nuke ability that kills everything nearby.

 

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Fine if you want to move if it makes the skill more usable, but that coefficient better come down.

>

> Backstab coefficient? 2.4

> Hundred Blades Coefficient? 4.62 + 1.21 (5.83)

> ...

> WD Coefficient? 7.92 + vuln + projectile reflect + retal + whirl finisher with a wider attack range lol

> The cooldown may be long, but that much damage with all those bonuses is just excessive while being able to move.

 

First ... please go to another forum class, because your main is not ranger.

Second .... I just said that with warrior on the same pvp dummy I did 23k damage with Whirling Axe and only 20k with Whirling Defense. Whiriling Axe CD = 12 sec with Axe Mastery , Whirling Defense CD = 20 sec with Honed Axes ... so basically you could use 2 times in a row Whirling Axe and only once Whirling Defense ... this means 23kx2 = 46k vs 20k ... can you follow me ?

And don't say that WD gives vulnerability, because that 20k was because of vulnerability too ... so in pure damage (without any debuff on enemy) Whirling Axe is more powerful than Whirling Defense ... ofc we can't split that vulnerability ... but don't put on paper only numbers ... go and do some tests, and you will see the difference, because every class has different internal/hidden multiplier.

And for the 3rd time ... in melee combat Ranger is weaker than a Warrior, this means WD should be powerful than WA if you want to be a balance ... but is not.

 

Please don't say kitten things if you don't know who to make a proper comparison.

 

PS: With Hundred Blades I did 20k damage ... but CD is 6sec ... so you can use it 3 times in a row = 60k damage instead of 20k from Whirling Defense.

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"OGDeadHead.8326" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > Fine if you want to move if it makes the skill more usable, but that coefficient better come down lol.

> > >

> > > Backstab coefficient? 2.4

> > > Hundred Blades Coefficient? 4.62 + 1.21 (5.83)

> > > ...

> > > WD Coefficient? 7.92 + vuln + projectile reflect + whirl finisher lol

> >

> > And how often can you use said skills within, lets say, 1 minute? So yeah, lol to you to.

> >

> > What a joke...

>

> Um... the only environment where using skills over and over again over the course of a minute matters is PvE, to which this change doesn't concern anyone because there's little reason to move. By your logic, utility skills are all underpowered if they have anything above an 8s cooldown because of how often they can be used.

>

> Shadowstep on thief on a 20s cooldown seems real balanced then, right? No? Why?

>

> 7.92 + retal + vuln + projectile reflect + whirl on a 360 degree AoE at 180 radius that's mobile is massively overloaded on a single skill for an offhand weapon and you're delusional if you think it isn't.

>

> Hell, the skill is called whirling DEFENSE. It's supposed to function as a zoning tool for area denial, not some kind of mega-nuke ability that kills everything nearby.

>

 

The movement matters not only in PvP (which is in itself a rather ignorant statement mind you). Its also a huge QoL in PvE. You most often just have to cancel it because the champ/legend jumps arround or spams AoE fields. Additionally it would bring more mobility to clear trash mobs.

I agree that the skill is kinda overloaded but it isnt really OP even if you could move.

We dont want a teleport on whirling defense, just possible movement with 50% movement speed, dont know why ppl cant get over that.

They could remove the retal IMO (dont know how others see this) because if you pop the skill no one wants to stay near you or shoot at you so why bother with retal.

The movement itself would give it atleast some better usage in higher ranks and it would be a huge QoL for PvE.

If you look at Axe OH of warrior you see that such skills are not OP besides the dmg they do they have not much to offer, i havent seen a power warrior/spellbreaker with axe OH the last half year when i spectated in pvp and axe got buffed trice since prePoF.

Its a huge dmg skill where you left yourself open or vulnerable. The only difference from WA to WD is that instead of shooting at the player use AoE, CC or just wait.

It has easy counter play and everybody could ran away from you when you have 50% movement speed, even a guard that is crippled.

Overall no one would bat an eye when WD would be a movement skill. I have never seen someone complaining that WA can move and tgis skill does more dmg with a shorter CD.

As i said above lets assume bith skills equal.

The utility would make up for the longer CD and the lower dmg but thats it. The rooting effect is not tolerable if we consider both skills equal in value.

 

Btw: Your comparison with shadowstep does not make sense at a single point in time. Shadowstep is a utility-mobility skill and has nithing to do with straight out dmg.

If you compare dmg skills and their CD you will see that dmg coefficients are pretty balanced in the entire game. Do you know why Axe got buffed 3 times since the prepof patch? Because no one usedit because you are highly susceptible to dmg ao they made it up with dmg it deals. And why are you susceptible to dmg? Because you are a slow whirling target. And mind you that you can move while using whirling axes it is still not near meta.

 

So please give me a stable argument point why you should not be able to move while using WD when WA is not near meta and it deals more dmg, has a lower CD and has available movement atm. The utility of WD does not really come into play here because you can just easily stop attacking and you automatically outplayed the skill.

[DeceiverX.8361]

I want to make it clear now that I didn't see the notion of "at 50% mobility" - I was addressing the OP.

I don't know what a 50% movespeed penalty would look like in terms of skill balance. My point was addressing full movement with the skill like the OP and immediate discussion suggested. Even still, there are concerns addressed below. Unfortunately, a lot of what you've just stated is factually incorrect and is referencing non-split values/capabilities or neglecting PvP effects.

 

- WA has a substantially lower attack radius (130 vs 180), does not reflect projectiles, does not apply retal, and does not apply vuln in the midst of its cast unlike WD which affects WD's damage as well making it hit harder in the end.

- In PvP and WvW, WA also deals less damage than WD. I'm assuming you forgot the split for your post.

- WA has a longer channel time and given the above lack of projectile deflection also makes it easier to interrupt.

- OH Axe on warrior does not have hard CC to combo into unlike OH Axe on ranger which has a pull into the madness of WD if it desires via Path of Scars.

- QZ, one of the most commonly-run utilities on ranger in the PvP environments, provides superspeed which would make this combo inescapable in most cases.

 

The complaint was about "long" cooldowns justifying an absurdly strong skill based on recasts per minute. Shadowstep is an extremely strong skill on a very high cooldown relative to a lot of dominant utilities. There's really nothing to compare WD to because of how strong it is on its own. So if the only factor defining that "It's okay because of its uses per minute," is its cooldown being too long because it only gets to be used once or twice a fight in the PvP environments, any necessary skills as such should be considered weak despite what they provide. If casts per minute mattered, Shadowstep would be considered weak, which we know, it isn't.

 

When factoring in everything that WD gives, its cooldown and lack of mobility absolutely justified. If you want mobility, it needs to make some substantial tradeoffs just like how WA can be interrupted by any ranged weapon/take damage and is completely negated without any mobility on its kit, unlike WD given comboing PoS and QZ as mentioned above.

 

Unless you want to split the balance to make this skill a copycast version of WA or make some substantial tradeoffs, the skill currently is justified as it is and shouldn't be afforded the luxury of movement without efficacy setbacks in sPvP and WvW.

 

 

 

[Wondrouswall.7169]

I fear the devs would read this thread and update WD to be like Phantasmal Warden where we are still rooted, lose cleave, and chunk axes from range - leaving no one happy.

[OGDeadHead.8326]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> The complaint was about "long" cooldowns justifying an absurdly strong skill based on recasts per minute.

 

Actually, the complaint was about you comparing the coefficient of skills clearly not in the same ballpark to make your point of... yeah what, really? I mean, we could just as well have talked bout skill X with a coefficient of 5000 but that can only be used once every hour. So yeah, I think you get my point. Hopefully.

 

WD has never been considered a game changer, or a strong skill in pvp. The most fun you could get out of it was to reflect the cannons on Raid on the Capricorn or even trebs in wvw. With the current implementation, its' a decent cleave damage on downed players, and it can work to kill/hurt that occasional thief/ranger through reflects (lower tiers), but that's it. OH axe 4 into WD is a pita to land (to say the least).

 

If this skill was seen as such a poweful skill to begin with, I'm sure we would have read tons of tear dripping posts in the pvp sections by now, yet we haven't. Personally, I've never ever seen even one post complaining about this skill being too powerful (tip to the nerf crowd: go ahead and create a few threads about it, I'm sure you'll succeed, you always do).

*

My general pov is that ALL skills that roots you, for ALL classes, needs to be reworked.

[DeceiverX.8361]

It's not "strong" in the context of sPvP because the role of the ranger isn't typically something which sits on a point and because of an overabundance of CC with the limited stab access ranger generally has had over the years. The skill itself is incredibly strong. It's just not conducive to sPvP which requires a lot of rotational play from the ranger and because of the limited success to which it can fully channel the ability. In PvE, it's got a lot more to do with encounter design than anything else causing a phasing out of channeled abilities due to profession powercreep demanding faster/more mobile bosses and more continuous non-projectile ranged threats.

 

If WD didn't provide movement or retal but did provide a stack of stability, the skill would be top-tier in sPvP as a defensive, area-denial skill which is the entire point.

 

I'm of the mindset where these kinds of skills should remain effective with their strengths of high damage and area denial but have plenty of counterplay than just making everything deal asinine amounts of damage all the time while being difficult to really punish or counterplay which aligns with pre-HoT combat which most people well-vested in PvP/WvW all admit was way better and healthier. In my experience, self-roots are a great tool to utilize for this.

 

The problem with self-roots is that most professions today are too safe and immune to punishment in a lot of cases which denies calculated burst, trades, or combo-oriented play. Asking for continued buffs to overcome counters and counterplay only fuels the arms race of overtuned profession capabilities we've been experiencing the past few years.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@"DeceiverX.8361"

If i recall correctly OP meant to give WD the same movement speed WA has which is 50% of normal run speed. This is not affected by superspeed but i have to try it out if this is true.

The point with the CC on the OH isnt really that good for an argument. Warrior can equip OH shield on the ither set. Shield rush weaponswap and cleave with WA, additionally Warrior has a way bigger CC pool than ranger.

I can understand your point that you think the skill would be to strong but it wont be, it would overbloated but not OP. It would still have easy counter play and only would be a noob filter not really something to shine in high ranked stuff.

I bet no one would bat an eye that ranger Axe OH would atleast get some use in competitive mode. A basic DH pull could counter it with no effort at all, or a revenant forced engagement or a good place meteor shower etc.

 

I personally would even trade the vuln and the retal just for movement, because i would get more QoL out of it than out of the other two.

 

And my bad i forgot about that it was a split buff to WA. The argument that nobody uses these skills because you are a fantastic target still stays though.

[DeceiverX.8361]

WA gives additional speed, not a penalty. It still is affected by superspeed while in combat, and the bonus movespeed is only applied in PvE. Warrior just does not have access to superspeed to make it apparent.

 

The PvP/WvW version of WA is literally just WD with less damage on a longer channel that does not provide boons, conditions, or projectile reflection at a shorter radius while being able to move at normal speed.

 

That's my point, though: The skill which is designed on being defensive ends up with tons of counterplay from ranged aggression (which it's supposed to counter) would end up overtuned at dealing damage yet still fail its design intent which puts ranger into either dependent on not having stability for this narrow counterplay which nerfs other builds, or the skill could be fixed to do what it's supposed to do well, which is static area denial.

 

I.E., if ranger suddenly gets a good source of stability in the future, which is something a ton of people want, the skill ends up totally busted OP if mobile while dealing that much damage, because then the counters you listed just simply no longer exist.

 

See the problem? Just asking for that kind of buff isn't a sustainable change and isn't healthy for the kit and will mandate either limitations on the class as a whole (bad) or probably over-zealous nerfs into the future for an unknown amount of time because ANet can never seem to make the right change when it comes to professions.

 

Gameplay for a long time has been updated akin to A counters B -> Make C which counters A -> Make D which counters C -> Make E which counters D and so on.

This creates really unhealthy play long-term and makes B end up being pointless. That's what's happened to self-immob mega-damage area denial skills like HB, and WD.

A few years ago, these were signature moves that when capitalized on and combo'd into, outright killed people.

 

It makes much more sense to attack the sources of the problems of these things and demand change there than to just keep asking for more, no?

 

 

 

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> I want to make it clear now that I didn't see the notion of "at 50% mobility" - I was addressing the OP.

> I don't know what a 50% movespeed penalty would look like in terms of skill balance. My point was addressing full movement with the skill like the OP and immediate discussion suggested. Even still, there are concerns addressed below. Unfortunately, a lot of what you've just stated is factually incorrect and is referencing non-split values/capabilities or neglecting PvP effects.

>

> - WA has a substantially lower attack radius (130 vs 180), does not reflect projectiles, does not apply retal, and does not apply vuln in the midst of its cast unlike WD which affects WD's damage as well making it hit harder in the end.

> - In PvP and WvW, WA also deals less damage than WD. I'm assuming you forgot the split for your post.

> - WA has a longer channel time and given the above lack of projectile deflection also makes it easier to interrupt.

> - OH Axe on warrior does not have hard CC to combo into unlike OH Axe on ranger which has a pull into the madness of WD if it desires via Path of Scars.

> - QZ, one of the most commonly-run utilities on ranger in the PvP environments, provides superspeed which would make this combo inescapable in most cases.

>

> The complaint was about "long" cooldowns justifying an absurdly strong skill based on recasts per minute. Shadowstep is an extremely strong skill on a very high cooldown relative to a lot of dominant utilities. There's really nothing to compare WD to because of how strong it is on its own. So if the only factor defining that "It's okay because of its uses per minute," is its cooldown being too long because it only gets to be used once or twice a fight in the PvP environments, any necessary skills as such should be considered weak despite what they provide. If casts per minute mattered, Shadowstep would be considered weak, which we know, it isn't.

>

> When factoring in everything that WD gives, its cooldown and lack of mobility absolutely justified. If you want mobility, it needs to make some substantial tradeoffs just like how WA can be interrupted by any ranged weapon/take damage and is completely negated without any mobility on its kit, unlike WD given comboing PoS and QZ as mentioned above.

>

> Unless you want to split the balance to make this skill a copycast version of WA or make some substantial tradeoffs, the skill currently is justified as it is and shouldn't be afforded the luxury of movement without efficacy setbacks in sPvP and WvW.

>

>

>

 

Do you want me to explain you again what I already wrote? K if you want this ... because seems you rly don't know about you talking :.

>First ... please go to another forum class, because your main is not ranger.

>Second .... I just said that with warrior on the same pvp dummy I did 23k damage with Whirling Axe and only 20k with Whirling Defense. Whiriling Axe CD = 12 sec with >Axe Mastery , Whirling Defense CD = 20 sec with Honed Axes ... so basically you could use 2 times in a row Whirling Axe and only once Whirling Defense ... this means >23kx2 = 46k vs 20k ... can you follow me ?

>And don't say that WD gives vulnerability, because that 20k was because of vulnerability too ... so in pure damage (without any debuff on enemy) Whirling Axe is more >powerful than Whirling Defense ... ofc we can't split that vulnerability ... but don't put on paper only numbers ... go and do some tests, and you will see the difference, >because every class has different internal/hidden multiplier.

>And for the 3rd time ... in melee combat Ranger is weaker than a Warrior, this means WD should be powerful than WA if you want to be a balance ... but is not.

>With Hundred Blades I did 20k damage ... but CD is 6sec ... so you can use it 3 times in a row = 60k damage instead of 20k from Whirling Defense.

 

Now ... tell me please what didn't you understand from what I wrote ?

The fact in reality WD and WA do almost the same damage ? ONCE AGAIN ... in test WD did the same damage like WA because of that vulnerability too ... so is not like both skills do 20k damage and WD do another vulnerability ... NO, WD did that damage due to that vulnerability .... yes if we talk in party/team fight that vulnerability will be a bonus for the others .... but you will do the same 20k damage! Do you understand or not?! The only real bonus when you talk de WD vs WA , and if we talk about 1 vs 1 fight, is that retaliation.... BUT! retaliation is only for 150 radius ... less than 180 radius of damage itself ... and this means if a good player know to leave when you start WD, that retaliation of you is ZERO!!!!

In the same time ... the fact 1 skill , the same skill no.5 can be use only once in 20 sec and the other can be use 2 times IS A BIG THING!!! How can you ignore this ?!

I don't care the Warrior didn't use this skill in sPVP , are some of them who are use it, because is not meta and because in sPVP usual you must have some offensive skills too like shield, but in WvW were enough players who use this skills, remember also before the POF were enough good dps players in WvW who used this skill.

And btw ... did you see many Druids or any Druid who use this "powerful" skill WD? NO! ... WHY? because is a sitting duck skill and they need mobility.

So if a such OP skill or almost OP because didn't has mobility atm is not used by the best spec for sPVP atm ... why do you try so hard to say that the skill is ok like it is right now?

Please stop to talk this kind of kitten words.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@"Dragonzhunter.8506"

I can slowly see his point here.

Because of many splits from PvE WD seems much more useful in comparison to WA.

Sad point here is that WD is not overtuned, WA is rather undertuned.

I again overread stuff on the tooltips of the wiki, and i have say that WA does not feel like you move faster.

Simple solution would be to give both skills the same amount of mobility. Bring them on par with the dmg utility balance (WA more dmg, WD more utility). And prevent superspeed or swiftness to affect movement of these skills to prevent any possible abusement (needs to be tested uf this would lead to abusement but thats a dev job).

I personally dont need vuln or retal on WD. Movement and a projectile deflect is fine for me. Better than the status quo IMO.

 

@"DeceiverX.8361"

Stab would prevent being CC but not being damaged from AoEs. And you could still run away from it easily without problems.

That superspeed affects WA should be removed but the speed it currently has in PvE should be unsplitted into PvP. Both skills have more use in PvP with this movement speed without an abusement. As OP somewhere said: All immobile skills should be removed from this game and reworked. An opinion a share with him.

 

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506"

> I can slowly see his point here.

> Because of many splits from PvE WD seems much more useful in comparison to WA.

> Sad point here is that WD is not overtuned, WA is rather undertuned.

> I again overread stuff on the tooltips of the wiki, and i have say that WA does not feel like you move faster.

> Simple solution would be to give both skills the same amount of mobility. Bring them on par with the dmg utility balance (WA more dmg, WD more utility). And prevent superspeed or swiftness to affect movement of these skills to prevent any possible abusement (needs to be tested uf this would lead to abusement but thats a dev job).

> I personally dont need vuln or retal on WD. Movement and a projectile deflect is fine for me. Better than the status quo IMO.

>

 

I don't know @"InsaneQR.7412" , in my opinion WD is not so mandatory for PVE atm, when condi build is much better in Raids/Fractals than power build. Because I am a power build user in sPVP and WvW I can admit that I use WD in PVE for world bosses, quests ... but for true PVE ppl, who play Raids and Fractals I am pretty sure that WD is not an option. That's why atm I talk about WD only regarding sPVP and WvW, where the only rly good build is power build.

But I understand what do you mean.

 

 

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > @"Dragonzhunter.8506"

> > I can slowly see his point here.

> > Because of many splits from PvE WD seems much more useful in comparison to WA.

> > Sad point here is that WD is not overtuned, WA is rather undertuned.

> > I again overread stuff on the tooltips of the wiki, and i have say that WA does not feel like you move faster.

> > Simple solution would be to give both skills the same amount of mobility. Bring them on par with the dmg utility balance (WA more dmg, WD more utility). And prevent superspeed or swiftness to affect movement of these skills to prevent any possible abusement (needs to be tested uf this would lead to abusement but thats a dev job).

> > I personally dont need vuln or retal on WD. Movement and a projectile deflect is fine for me. Better than the status quo IMO.

> >

>

> I don't know @"InsaneQR.7412" , in my opinion WD is not so mandatory for PVE atm, when condi build is much better in Raids/Fractals than power build. Because I am a power build user in sPVP and WvW I can admit that I use WD in PVE for world bosses, quests ... but for true PVE ppl, who play Raids and Fractals I am pretty sure that WD is not an option. That's why atm I talk about WD only regarding sPVP and WvW, where the only rly good build is power build.

> But I understand what do you mean.

>

>

 

Still no argument to neglect it in a PvE perspective. Its not mandatory for PvE but its a strong power option and nice combi with dagger MH in hybrid builds. Bumping up the utility/mobility would make it a more attractive option for such builds and it could compeed more with WH which has way more utility with just WH 5 and nice burst dmg with WH 4.

Overall it would make the weapon feeling better.

WD is also not as attractive in PvE because you have to cancel it more than often when you get blastered with AoEs, movement could give some decent QoL in this respect.

 

The PvP pov is offcourse not to be neglected and both gametypes would benefit from movement.

 

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > @"Dragonzhunter.8506"

> > > I can slowly see his point here.

> > > Because of many splits from PvE WD seems much more useful in comparison to WA.

> > > Sad point here is that WD is not overtuned, WA is rather undertuned.

> > > I again overread stuff on the tooltips of the wiki, and i have say that WA does not feel like you move faster.

> > > Simple solution would be to give both skills the same amount of mobility. Bring them on par with the dmg utility balance (WA more dmg, WD more utility). And prevent superspeed or swiftness to affect movement of these skills to prevent any possible abusement (needs to be tested uf this would lead to abusement but thats a dev job).

> > > I personally dont need vuln or retal on WD. Movement and a projectile deflect is fine for me. Better than the status quo IMO.

> > >

> >

> > I don't know @"InsaneQR.7412" , in my opinion WD is not so mandatory for PVE atm, when condi build is much better in Raids/Fractals than power build. Because I am a power build user in sPVP and WvW I can admit that I use WD in PVE for world bosses, quests ... but for true PVE ppl, who play Raids and Fractals I am pretty sure that WD is not an option. That's why atm I talk about WD only regarding sPVP and WvW, where the only rly good build is power build.

> > But I understand what do you mean.

> >

> >

>

> Still no argument to neglect it in a PvE perspective. Its not mandatory for PvE but its a strong power option and nice combi with dagger MH in hybrid builds. Bumping up the utility/mobility would make it a more attractive option for such builds and it could compeed more with WH which has way more utility with just WH 5 and nice burst dmg with WH 4.

> Overall it would make the weapon feeling better.

> WD is also not as attractive in PvE because you have to cancel it more than often when you get blastered with AoEs, movement could give some decent QoL in this respect.

>

> The PvP pov is offcourse not to be neglected and both gametypes would benefit from movement.

>

 

Agree.

[ToPNoP.2493]

yea, invis and move whirling winds, may be time to just kill warrior/thief off for good. make the other easiest class in the game even better than the braindead scourge! That way people don't need to learn a class, they can just either be ranger or die. Great idea!

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"ToPNoP.2493" said:

> yea, invis and move whirling winds, may be time to just kill warrior/thief off for good. make the other easiest class in the game even better than the braindead scourge! That way people don't need to learn a class, they can just either be ranger or die. Great idea!

 

Rly I don't understand your reaction ... is for or is just ironic ... in both situation I think you misunderstand the idea ...

[ToPNoP.2493]

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > @"ToPNoP.2493" said:

> > yea, invis and move whirling winds, may be time to just kill warrior/thief off for good. make the other easiest class in the game even better than the braindead scourge! That way people don't need to learn a class, they can just either be ranger or die. Great idea!

>

> Rly I don't understand your reaction ... is for or is just ironic ... in both situation I think you misunderstand the idea ...

 

I do not misunderstand anything. The mobility, invis, knockback, unblockable, kite mechanics, and now a moving damaging invuln that can be used right after coming out of invis and create a combination that is nothing less than a 1 hit. Esp. for those who watch invuln/stability and/or listen for ques. Give them more time and see what happens. Come on now, sounds like mirage/holo envy. Have you ever met a tap crew that has like 3 rangers, mirage, and engi? Just imagine now, unbeatable ranger specs. They already have tankyness of a guard with half again the damage and 10 times the mobility. Keep that idea for open world only!

[Euthymias.7984]

-Remove the Retal and Vulnerability (Keep the latter in PvE)

-Make it only destroy projectiles instead of reflecting

-Make it Mobile

 

There, now Axe is a bursty offhand that doesnt cuck you if something moves around or forces you to move.

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"Euthymias.7984" said:

> -Remove the Retal and Vulnerability (Keep the latter in PvE)

> -Make it only destroy projectiles instead of reflecting

> -Make it Mobile

>

> There, now Axe is a bursty offhand that doesnt kitten you if something moves around or forces you to move.

 

Well id say we could make it this way:

Remove boon and condis in both gamemodes.

Default WD does destroy projectiles.

You can move while using skill.

Movement in PvE is increased like WA.

Axe trait: Gain precision per axe wielded. WD does reflect projectiles.

Wintersbite effect baseline.

So it has a decent effect for PvE and a good trait effect in PvP. Not mandatory for decent dmg with MH but more utility with OH.

 

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > @"Dragonzhunter.8506"

> > I can slowly see his point here.

> > Because of many splits from PvE WD seems much more useful in comparison to WA.

> > Sad point here is that WD is not overtuned, WA is rather undertuned.

> > I again overread stuff on the tooltips of the wiki, and i have say that WA does not feel like you move faster.

> > Simple solution would be to give both skills the same amount of mobility. Bring them on par with the dmg utility balance (WA more dmg, WD more utility). And prevent superspeed or swiftness to affect movement of these skills to prevent any possible abusement (needs to be tested uf this would lead to abusement but thats a dev job).

> > I personally dont need vuln or retal on WD. Movement and a projectile deflect is fine for me. Better than the status quo IMO.

> >

>

> I don't know @"InsaneQR.7412" , in my opinion WD is not so mandatory for PVE atm, when condi build is much better in Raids/Fractals than power build. Because I am a power build user in sPVP and WvW I can admit that I use WD in PVE for world bosses, quests ... but for true PVE ppl, who play Raids and Fractals I am pretty sure that WD is not an option. That's why atm I talk about WD only regarding sPVP and WvW, where the only rly good build is power build.

> But I understand what do you mean.

>

>

 

WA isn't under tuned for PvE! Both base warrior and spellbreaker use it as part of their DPS rotation with GS+A/A or A/A+M/S. For power druid, sword/axe is a meta build and I use it myself in fotm just fine. I also use it at Sloth when healing for extra reflects. PvE power soul beast actually has an amazing opening burst and WD is part of it. It just falls off hard because sword and dagger 1-3 are weak for power builds. So WD is a "non-option" in PvE only in the sense that power MH for ranger are non-options in PvE. Warriors and ele manage to channel 100b and MS just fine with quickness in raids/fotm. WD isn't any different in that you need to time/position correctly like other skills to maximize DPS. The sword/dagger MH needs increased power dmg. **Improving the mobility wouldn't do anything for the PvE DPS power build until the MH weapons are buffed.**

 

For PvP, I'm not saying I don't want a buff to ranger. I do. I want it on the sword or mh dagger where I could sustain decent pressure on people, lock them down with a MH weapon then plant and burst with WD. I like the utility/burst it provides and don't want to lose it over mobility. Well, I don't care too much about the retal but the rest is great. If you are concerned with AoE, lock down your opponent so they can't aoe while you WD. This again leads back to the idea that I would like a buff on MH weapons to lock down my opponent.

 

Plat 2 was necro yes and I probably wouldn't reach plat 2 with a glass SB but I know the skill level of ppl at that rank. The people I fight in unranked aren't always worst in skill and I can tell when I'm fighting decent players. It's a gamble yeah but so is every build that has counters. There are also people out there playing glass builds in ranked and making it work at high rank.

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> **Improving the mobility wouldn't do anything for the PvE DPS power build until the MH weapons are buffed.**

>

 

QoL would be QoL but you are right. The power MH weapons on ranger are lacking.

 

One idea would be that the power coefficient of predators cunning would skyrocket so you can do more power dmg when AA with dagger or sword 3. A CC on the dagger 2 would also be nice for twice as vicious. I would actually replace the bleed with poison and the pet poison with a short daze.

 

For sword its just lacking dps because it has only the AA for constant power dmg. Hornet sting is utility and not a dps skill and serpent strike is a dps loss due to the long animation.

Hornet sting being a movement directed skill would maybe improve sword handling (so you roll into the direction you are walking and not just backwards) which would atleast give it a better place in open PvE or WvW, but without totally overhauling the 2 and the 3, sword will always be an AA power weapon with evade utility.

Dagger could be improved via before mentioned traits and scaling, so i bet my money on that.

 

 

 

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

I will not repeat myself over and over.

On this post we don't talk about wishes regarding main hand weapon, dagger etc ... I am pretty sure that are many posts about these.

Also we don't talk about giving other weapon pressure/CC etc so the WD could stay like it is now. Ofc if you give me another 2 CC more so the enemy can't use his at least 2 CC cleanse, would be ok with the actual stance of WD, but we talk here about our current skills/builds and possibility to make WD movable like other related class skills.

Also my pov is mainly for sPVP and WvW. If you want I can change the title and I'll put "ONLY for sPVP and WvW".

I don't know ppl playing in high rank with glass cannon builds ... please let me now who are those ...

 

 

[Kain Francois.4328]

Whirling Defense's entire purpose is to contest a single area with a bubble that does massive damage, and reflects projectiles. This is also why it has Retaliation, because an enemy shouldn't attack you while using it.

 

If you allow movement, it defeats the point, and really ruins the skill. Instead, they should improve what it is actually intended to do. Something you use when you reeeally want a foe to bugger off a capture point.

 

Firstly, it needs a radius increase to better cover a conquest capture point. Secondly, it needs some sort of defensive buff. Perhaps a fat percentile damage reduction while using the skill (it IS called Whirling *Defense*), and maybe it should apply weakness and daze to foes too. Third, the retaliation needs to be stronger.

 

Whirling Defense, since its inception in GW1, has always been a defensive skill you use to block attacks, and deflect projectiles back to enemies. I want to see that spirit preserved. Wait a minute... block.... block.....*block*.... Hmmmm.... Maybe the skill should block attacks for its duration?

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"Kain Francois.4328" said:

> Whirling Defense's entire purpose is to contest a single area with a bubble that does massive damage, and reflects projectiles. This is also why it has Retaliation, because an enemy shouldn't attack you while using it.

>

> If you allow movement, it defeats the point, and really ruins the skill. Instead, they should improve what it is actually intended to do. Something you use when you reeeally want a foe to kitten off a capture point.

>

I don't think so ... why do you think a skill only from sPVP perspective ?

 

> Firstly, it needs a radius increase to better cover a conquest capture point.

Again you talk only from sPVP perspective.

 

>Secondly, it needs some sort of defensive buff. Perhaps a fat percentile damage reduction while using the skill (it IS called Whirling *Defense*), and maybe it should apply weakness and daze to foes too. Third, the retaliation needs to be stronger.

>

 

This could be something ... I trade moving for all these changes you say about

 

> Whirling Defense, since its inception in GW1, has always been a defensive skill you use to block attacks, and deflect projectiles back to enemies. I want to see that spirit preserved. Wait a minute... block.... block.....*block*.... Hmmmm.... Maybe the skill should block attacks for its duration?

>

If WD would block attacks will be something ...

[Kain Francois.4328]

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > @"Kain Francois.4328" said:

> > Whirling Defense's entire purpose is to contest a single area with a bubble that does massive damage, and reflects projectiles. This is also why it has Retaliation, because an enemy shouldn't attack you while using it.

> >

> > If you allow movement, it defeats the point, and really ruins the skill. Instead, they should improve what it is actually intended to do. Something you use when you reeeally want a foe to kitten off a capture point.

> >

> I don't think so ... why do you think a skill only from sPVP perspective ?

>

> > Firstly, it needs a radius increase to better cover a conquest capture point.

> Again you talk only from sPVP perspective.

 

I'm actually hardcore PvE. However, in my years with this game, I've understood that balance of PvP takes priority over PvE because that is where balance is most sensitive. I'm not saying that to hate on PvE or anything, just that the PvE environment tends to be less reactionary. A simple change for PvE can be explosive in PvP.

 

Also, coming from PvE, I wouldn't mind a radius increase for Whirling Defense, since we can't move anyway. It'd help us tag things easier, and expand our reach for projectile blocking.