WHIRLING DEFENSE should be moving skill and not a "Sitting Duck"

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Kain Francois.4328" said:

> > @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said:

> > > Whirling Defense's entire purpose is to contest a single area with a bubble that does massive damage, and reflects projectiles. This is also why it has Retaliation, because an enemy shouldn't attack you while using it.

> > >

> > > If you allow movement, it defeats the point, and really ruins the skill. Instead, they should improve what it is actually intended to do. Something you use when you reeeally want a foe to kitten off a capture point.

> > >

> > I don't think so ... why do you think a skill only from sPVP perspective ?

> >

> > > Firstly, it needs a radius increase to better cover a conquest capture point.

> > Again you talk only from sPVP perspective.

>

> I'm actually hardcore PvE. However, in my years with this game, I've understood that balance of PvP takes priority over PvE because that is where balance is most sensitive. I'm not saying that to hate on PvE or anything, just that the PvE environment tends to be less reactionary. A simple change for PvE can be explosive in PvP.

>

> Also, coming from PvE, I wouldn't mind a radius increase for Whirling Defense, since we can't move anyway. It'd help us tag things easier, and expand our reach for projectile blocking.

>

>

 

Thank you for a rational understanding of the core problem here. The skill isn't achieving its intended purpose, and as such, should be modified to fulfill that purpose better, rather than buffing it to do something completely different. Area denial skills are weak right now only due to relative powercreep. Hundred Blades was one of the best skills in the game a few years ago and the self-immob meant next to nothing. Everything these days seems to nuke in one strike as an AoE with low cast times, and it's driven people away from the PvP formats bigtime. The population dropped by over half with HoT and got even worse with PoF. Allowing this skill to do the same thing is only contributing to the same problem, rather than targeting the real issues at hand.

 

If it's weak in PvE, buff it in PvE, which can be done through numbers like Blurred Frenzy getting its coefficient literally doubled. If you need to interrupt the cast to dodge, a bumped coefficient would make it deal better DPS across the board, and wouldn't change functionality in the PvP formats. Split functionality - when the behavior of a skill is way different between modes - really messes with people, and should be avoided at all costs.

 

Radius buffs, stability, DR, whatever, I really don't care what they do. They could honestly even buff the damage in general. Just from the PvP/WvW perspective, this skill can pretty easily deal over 40-50k damage per cast if people stand in it. The counterplay is to play smart and back away and admit the zone is denied. The purpose of the skill is to bide time while holding an area for things to come off cooldown or have allies come to support a retaliation effort. Allowing movement would allow what would simply be a projectile-immune increased-range AoE triple (and more)-backstab which is just silly, especially if combined with QZ for a reduced channel time and increased movement speed. It could be set to a fixed value, but there still remain concerns of viability at that point since if set too low, it's garbage, but if set too high, it's completely busted.

 

It's not that I don't want the ranger to succeed or anything. It's just there's been a trend across a ton of professions to have all the skills do way too many things at once and always be super strong. I disagree with this philosophy for every profession because thus far it's completely ruined this game's PvP experience for myself and a large portion of the community's.

[Lazze.9870]

> @"Eleazar.9478" said:

> @"panekomo.7146" no I agree with dragon hunterz. Whirling being a long casting root is so supceptable to getting counterplayed. It worked fine in the pre hot era. But as a root it sets you up for easy counterplay. (Don't get me wrong I like skills that have counter plays to em, but when everyone has a million escapes and aoe it's not good)

>

>

> Making it a moving skill even with a hefty dps Nerf in wvw/PvP would one make it fantastic for cleaves (witch ranger doesn't really have much of thus one of the many reasons that it falls out over other classes in comps)

 

Haha, a hefty dps nerf wouldn't make it a fantastic cleave, it would be counterintiative. A hefty nerf to the damge means you might aswell sword auto unless you need the reflect.

 

It already is a hefty cleave. The rooting is just an inconvenience. And like I said before, they don't need to remove it make the skill work, the skill just needs a bit of stability and a tad larger radius to work as the area denial skill it's clearly meant to be.

[anduriell.6280]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Kain Francois.4328" said:

 

Here buddies we have two accouts from the same dude or a friend of...

 

Whirling deffense should not root. Not from like ever. Why? All the points maid above plus **ranger is supposed to use mobility and positioning to get the most of the class**

 

Examples? All the straight line skills.

 

What’s wrong there? Rooting skills.

 

Is like core thief to have rooting daggerstorm.

 

Not only should be able to move but also to move at normal combat speed so we can reposition ourselves to the best point while having some sort of cover.

 

there is no point to have no ranged AoEs at all or repositioning skills (shadow step/ stealth / teleport) if aren’t provided with the tools to move to the correct place.

 

 

Why anet won’t do it/ haven’t done it yet?

Because they have to change the animation. And that doesn’t bring cash meanwhile a new black lion mount skin may.

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"anduriell.6280" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said:

>

> Here buddies we have two accouts from the same dude or a friend of...

>

> Whirling deffense should not root. Not from like ever. Why? All the points maid above plus **ranger is supposed to use mobility and positioning to get the most of the class**

>

> Examples? All the straight line skills.

>

> What’s wrong there? Rooting skills.

>

> Is like core thief to have rooting daggerstorm.

>

> Not only should be able to move but also to move at normal combat speed so we can reposition ourselves to the best point while having some sort of cover.

>

> there is no point to have no ranged AoEs at all or repositioning skills (shadow step/ stealth / teleport) if aren’t provided with the tools to move to the correct place.

>

>

> Why anet won’t do it/ haven’t done it yet?

> Because they have to change the animation. And that doesn’t bring cash meanwhile a new black lion mount skin may.

>

 

Lol?

 

Because two people agree and recognize what the skill is supposed to do they must be friends or the same person...

Are you seriously that desperate for validation?

 

Did you even look at his post history? He thinks the RShroud changes to degen faster were a good thing while I made an entire thread justifying why reaper shroud should have no degen at all because his view comes from PvE and mine comes from PvP/WvW where the degen made reaper objectively have zero purpose anywhere at all and has no strength anywhere. It's pretty obvious we are far from being on the same page in general.

 

And the fact you compare WD to Daggerstorm?

 

WD has literally more than ten times the damage and Dagger Storm has almost 4 times the cooldown and is an elite skill competing against BV.

[Darkened.4076]

> @"Krispera.5087" said:

> You can't really compare Whirling Defense and Hundred Blades. Hundred Blades DO more damage than Whirling Defense, you just did a comparison on damage, when you didn't take in consideration the cooldown in the calculations. You can do 3 Hundred Blades in a whole Whirling Defense cooldown. Actually, it shows even further that Whirling Defense needs something more.

>

> I like the idea of Block in the whole channelling of Whirling Defense. It will give S/A a ''Counterattack''.

>

> OH Axe is barely used in any modes and it can't even give us enough damage to be Power DPS in instances. Any ideas are welcomed at this point.

 

I was going to mention this myself. I'm a huge fan of the block idea.

 

Axes in general need a small buff, ranger 'currently' has no viable power option in DPS PVE right now [not the only game-mode I play, but I fucking hate playing condition on the ranger, shortbow gets on my nerves]. I'm pretty sure that every class has a power and condition option right now - could be wrong about that though.

Axes in general could use a little help in the other game-modes too.

[Substance E.4852]

Rangers: "Whirlling Defense is fine. Learn how to use it properly."

 

Also Rangers: Never actually uses axe offhand in serious pvp play.

 

Something's not adding up here.

[Darkened.4076]

> @"Substance E.4852" said:

> Rangers: "Whirlling Defense is fine. Learn how to use it properly."

>

> Also Rangers: Never actually uses axe offhand in serious pvp play.

>

> Something's not adding up here.

 

I agree that the damage is fine. The cool-down may be a little long though, and it does lack something like a block [if stationary] or half movement speed. As I said previously, Axes in general need a buff.

[Substance E.4852]

They just need to let us move with it.

 

Get rid of the reflect and retal, name it something different, and let us finally have an actually punishing aoe skill.

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"Darkened.4076" said:

> > @"Krispera.5087" said:

> > You can't really compare Whirling Defense and Hundred Blades. Hundred Blades DO more damage than Whirling Defense, you just did a comparison on damage, when you didn't take in consideration the cooldown in the calculations. You can do 3 Hundred Blades in a whole Whirling Defense cooldown. Actually, it shows even further that Whirling Defense needs something more.

> >

> > I like the idea of Block in the whole channelling of Whirling Defense. It will give S/A a ''Counterattack''.

> >

> > OH Axe is barely used in any modes and it can't even give us enough damage to be Power DPS in instances. Any ideas are welcomed at this point.

>

> I was going to mention this myself. I'm a huge fan of the block idea.

>

> Axes in general need a small buff, ranger 'currently' has no viable power option in DPS PVE right now [not the only game-mode I play, but I kitten hate playing condition on the ranger, shortbow gets on my nerves]. I'm pretty sure that every class has a power and condition option right now - could be wrong about that though.

> Axes in general could use a little help in the other game-modes too.

 

Its not that ranger dont have power DPS. Its that they lack one handing weapons to do power dps.

Sword is go to PvP MH because if many evades, sadly it has not much use for PvE because it does not bring much utility on the table and slow skills which reduce DPS.

AxE OH doeant make stuff easier by being either difgicult to aim or an immovable object.

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"Substance E.4852" said:

> They just need to let us move with it.

>

> Get rid of the reflect and retal, name it something different, and let us finally have an actually punishing aoe skill.

 

I would keep the reflect. Its very handy and gives the skill an identity.

They could make it destroy projectiles baseline and put projectile reflection on trait but this would be bad for build diversity.

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Substance E.4852" said:

> Rangers: "Whirlling Defense is fine. Learn how to use it properly."

>

> Also Rangers: Never actually uses axe offhand in serious pvp play.

>

> Something's not adding up here.

 

Because the reasons why Axe isn't used in serious PvP play are entirely different than the reasons it's not used in PvE play.

 

Because people want to make it work with the skills they want to use while forgetting how totally busted it would be in a few different combinations.

 

Because people believe adding a ton of format-specific rules would be a good thing when in this same thread the number of misconceptions or downright falsehoods of claims of other skills is based heavily due to PvP/PvE splits.

 

Because people insist this skill should be a DPS tool when it's not even supposed to be.

 

Because people want their class to be top DPS and always included in every area of the game and thus project some degree of internal bias.

 

I swear it's like I'm the only person on these boards who's okay with not buffing the classes I play into oblivion because I value the integrity of combat and the game overall more than being OP.

[Wondrouswall.7169]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> I swear it's like I'm the only person on these boards who's okay with not buffing the classes I play into oblivion because I value the integrity of combat and the game overall more than being OP.

 

Seems like it. No sarcasm either and I commend you for it.

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > Rangers: "Whirlling Defense is fine. Learn how to use it properly."

> >

> > Also Rangers: Never actually uses axe offhand in serious pvp play.

> >

> > Something's not adding up here.

>

> Because the reasons why Axe isn't used in serious PvP play are entirely different than the reasons it's not used in PvE play.

>

> Because people want to make it work with the skills they want to use while forgetting how totally busted it would be in a few different combinations.

>

> Because people believe adding a ton of format-specific rules would be a good thing when in this same thread the number of misconceptions or downright falsehoods of claims of other skills is based heavily due to PvP/PvE splits.

>

> Because people insist this skill should be a DPS tool when it's not even supposed to be.

>

> Because people want their class to be top DPS and always included in every area of the game and thus project some degree of internal bias.

>

> I swear it's like I'm the only person on these boards who's okay with not buffing the classes I play into oblivion because I value the integrity of combat and the game overall more than being OP.

 

I personally also value the integrity of combat and not demanding to be totally OP.

I am also not demanding WD to be a DPS tool. I persoanally suggest a movement because its QoL. 50% movement would be enough just to get out of dmg fields and normal movement speed in PvE to better catch up with mobs.

Of course there could be a tradeoff. As i said above they could remove the retal and vuln if this skill. In PvE it wouldnt effect end game content really and the retal actually is rather a disadvantage in certain encounter which corrupt or rip boons.

Despite the fact that its a defensive skill it makes you vulnerable atm, also a reason why it isnt widely used, even in PvE i sometimes feel to be the only one using it.

Movement would give it more flexibility and better tactic use.

If they keep the dmg on this level. Keep the reflect and replace the other effects with movement i doubt it would be really OP.

I mean daggerstorm reflects projectiles, has movement and throws projectiles that apply damaging condis and i personally havent seen it in WvW except some rare occasions. And in these occassions it didnt really had a big effect in the end except that we had trouble AoEing/range attacking him due to his movement. It can be debated if DS has a way to high CD but that would be misplaced here.

What i want to say is: Projectile deflect with PbAoE dmg and movement is not OP with current dmg (without boons and condis) and you could still counter play it with just waiting or CC because WD has no stab and ranger has not many stab sources.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"Substance E.4852" said:

> Rangers: "Whirlling Defense is fine. Learn how to use it properly."

>

> Also Rangers: Never actually uses axe offhand in serious pvp play.

>

> Something's not adding up here.

 

Hahaha, lol .... good one Substance E ... still are some rangers who use it and I am one of them too ;) .

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > > Rangers: "Whirlling Defense is fine. Learn how to use it properly."

> > >

> > > Also Rangers: Never actually uses axe offhand in serious pvp play.

> > >

> > > Something's not adding up here.

> >

> > Because the reasons why Axe isn't used in serious PvP play are entirely different than the reasons it's not used in PvE play.

> >

> > Because people want to make it work with the skills they want to use while forgetting how totally busted it would be in a few different combinations.

> >

> > Because people believe adding a ton of format-specific rules would be a good thing when in this same thread the number of misconceptions or downright falsehoods of claims of other skills is based heavily due to PvP/PvE splits.

> >

> > Because people insist this skill should be a DPS tool when it's not even supposed to be.

> >

> > Because people want their class to be top DPS and always included in every area of the game and thus project some degree of internal bias.

> >

> > I swear it's like I'm the only person on these boards who's okay with not buffing the classes I play into oblivion because I value the integrity of combat and the game overall more than being OP.

>

> I personally also value the integrity of combat and not demanding to be totally OP.

> I am also not demanding WD to be a DPS tool. I persoanally suggest a movement because its QoL. 50% movement would be enough just to get out of dmg fields and normal movement speed in PvE to better catch up with mobs.

> Of course there could be a tradeoff. As i said above they could remove the retal and vuln if this skill. In PvE it wouldnt effect end game content really and the retal actually is rather a disadvantage in certain encounter which corrupt or rip boons.

> Despite the fact that its a defensive skill it makes you vulnerable atm, also a reason why it isnt widely used, even in PvE i sometimes feel to be the only one using it.

> Movement would give it more flexibility and better tactic use.

> If they keep the dmg on this level. Keep the reflect and replace the other effects with movement i doubt it would be really OP.

> I mean daggerstorm reflects projectiles, has movement and throws projectiles that apply damaging condis and i personally havent seen it in WvW except some rare occasions. And in these occassions it didnt really had a big effect in the end except that we had trouble AoEing/range attacking him due to his movement. It can be debated if DS has a way to high CD but that would be misplaced here.

> What i want to say is: Projectile deflect with PbAoE dmg and movement is not OP with current dmg (without boons and condis) and you could still counter play it with just waiting or CC because WD has no stab and ranger has not many stab sources.

 

People keep bringing up dagger storm and I don't know why.

Dagger storm isn't taken on the thief because for a 90s cooldown the effect is bad. It's basically a non-damaging version of WD with a ranged cripple on it and some stab at three times the cooldown that occupies an elite skill slot contending with Basilisk Venom. It does nothing to deny zoning and the thief has poor synergy with animation locks since it lacks an on-demand invuln like Signet of Stone if it gets rushed into melee.

 

WD literally does more than ten times the damage. It's currently the hardest-hitting skill in the entire game in the PvP formats, only beaten in PvE by WA which has no defensive aspect at all/smaller radius and was nerfed and split in PvP/WvW for being too overpowered. Getting rid of the retal and vuln while allowing movement simply isn't enough on what's already a defensive-natured zoning skill.

 

I'm just thinking of how silly the combos would be. Something like Longbow + A/A Raven SB. PBS/RF standard combo to force stab/proc immunity/stunbreak 1 or they die, follow-up with Raven Swoop into Prelude Lash to force a second stunbreak and cleanse, then time any residual boons with Axe 4 + QZ into WD is a guaranteed follow-through and CC while your opponent burned everything to get past the initial assault and literally cant outrun a super-sped hundred blades with higher range and +50% more damage.

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > > > Rangers: "Whirlling Defense is fine. Learn how to use it properly."

> > > >

> > > > Also Rangers: Never actually uses axe offhand in serious pvp play.

> > > >

> > > > Something's not adding up here.

> > >

> > > Because the reasons why Axe isn't used in serious PvP play are entirely different than the reasons it's not used in PvE play.

> > >

> > > Because people want to make it work with the skills they want to use while forgetting how totally busted it would be in a few different combinations.

> > >

> > > Because people believe adding a ton of format-specific rules would be a good thing when in this same thread the number of misconceptions or downright falsehoods of claims of other skills is based heavily due to PvP/PvE splits.

> > >

> > > Because people insist this skill should be a DPS tool when it's not even supposed to be.

> > >

> > > Because people want their class to be top DPS and always included in every area of the game and thus project some degree of internal bias.

> > >

> > > I swear it's like I'm the only person on these boards who's okay with not buffing the classes I play into oblivion because I value the integrity of combat and the game overall more than being OP.

> >

> > I personally also value the integrity of combat and not demanding to be totally OP.

> > I am also not demanding WD to be a DPS tool. I persoanally suggest a movement because its QoL. 50% movement would be enough just to get out of dmg fields and normal movement speed in PvE to better catch up with mobs.

> > Of course there could be a tradeoff. As i said above they could remove the retal and vuln if this skill. In PvE it wouldnt effect end game content really and the retal actually is rather a disadvantage in certain encounter which corrupt or rip boons.

> > Despite the fact that its a defensive skill it makes you vulnerable atm, also a reason why it isnt widely used, even in PvE i sometimes feel to be the only one using it.

> > Movement would give it more flexibility and better tactic use.

> > If they keep the dmg on this level. Keep the reflect and replace the other effects with movement i doubt it would be really OP.

> > I mean daggerstorm reflects projectiles, has movement and throws projectiles that apply damaging condis and i personally havent seen it in WvW except some rare occasions. And in these occassions it didnt really had a big effect in the end except that we had trouble AoEing/range attacking him due to his movement. It can be debated if DS has a way to high CD but that would be misplaced here.

> > What i want to say is: Projectile deflect with PbAoE dmg and movement is not OP with current dmg (without boons and condis) and you could still counter play it with just waiting or CC because WD has no stab and ranger has not many stab sources.

>

> People keep bringing up dagger storm and I don't know why.

> Dagger storm isn't taken on the thief because for a 90s cooldown the effect is bad. It's basically a non-damaging version of WD with a ranged cripple on it and some stab at three times the cooldown that occupies an elite skill slot contending with Basilisk Venom. It does nothing to deny zoning and the thief has poor synergy with animation locks since it lacks an on-demand invuln like Signet of Stone if it gets rushed into melee.

>

> WD literally does more than ten times the damage. It's currently the hardest-hitting skill in the entire game in the PvP formats, only beaten in PvE by WA which has no defensive aspect at all/smaller radius and was nerfed and split in PvP/WvW for being too overpowered. Getting rid of the retal and vuln while allowing movement simply isn't enough on what's already a defensive-natured zoning skill.

>

> I'm just thinking of how silly the combos would be. Something like Longbow + A/A Raven SB. PBS/RF standard combo to force stab/proc immunity/stunbreak 1 or they die, follow-up with Raven Swoop into Prelude Lash to force a second stunbreak and cleanse, then time any residual boons with Axe 4 + QZ into WD is a guaranteed follow-through and CC while your opponent burned everything to get past the initial assault and literally cant outrun a super-sped hundred blades with higher range and +50% more damage.

 

So make it uneffected by superspeed. Wouldnt be that far of a stretch and would prevent any abuse.

The whole point about the movement is that you could use it better in competitive play but a skill with the counter "walk away" has its issues in such cintents and it does nit need any skill of the opposite site. Thats basically the whole point of the discussion here.

Lets assume they change the dmg so its on par with WA in PvP or they have the same dmg relation like in PvE (relation not numbers, so WA more dmg than WD but nit necessarily more than in PvE). Personally i wouldnt be against it. Its a fair trade off, they need to hit the sweet spot if good but not OP nor UP.

 

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > > > Rangers: "Whirlling Defense is fine. Learn how to use it properly."

> > > >

> > > > Also Rangers: Never actually uses axe offhand in serious pvp play.

> > > >

> > > > Something's not adding up here.

> > >

> > > Because the reasons why Axe isn't used in serious PvP play are entirely different than the reasons it's not used in PvE play.

> > >

> > > Because people want to make it work with the skills they want to use while forgetting how totally busted it would be in a few different combinations.

> > >

> > > Because people believe adding a ton of format-specific rules would be a good thing when in this same thread the number of misconceptions or downright falsehoods of claims of other skills is based heavily due to PvP/PvE splits.

> > >

> > > Because people insist this skill should be a DPS tool when it's not even supposed to be.

> > >

> > > Because people want their class to be top DPS and always included in every area of the game and thus project some degree of internal bias.

> > >

> > > I swear it's like I'm the only person on these boards who's okay with not buffing the classes I play into oblivion because I value the integrity of combat and the game overall more than being OP.

> >

> > I personally also value the integrity of combat and not demanding to be totally OP.

> > I am also not demanding WD to be a DPS tool. I persoanally suggest a movement because its QoL. 50% movement would be enough just to get out of dmg fields and normal movement speed in PvE to better catch up with mobs.

> > Of course there could be a tradeoff. As i said above they could remove the retal and vuln if this skill. In PvE it wouldnt effect end game content really and the retal actually is rather a disadvantage in certain encounter which corrupt or rip boons.

> > Despite the fact that its a defensive skill it makes you vulnerable atm, also a reason why it isnt widely used, even in PvE i sometimes feel to be the only one using it.

> > Movement would give it more flexibility and better tactic use.

> > If they keep the dmg on this level. Keep the reflect and replace the other effects with movement i doubt it would be really OP.

> > I mean daggerstorm reflects projectiles, has movement and throws projectiles that apply damaging condis and i personally havent seen it in WvW except some rare occasions. And in these occassions it didnt really had a big effect in the end except that we had trouble AoEing/range attacking him due to his movement. It can be debated if DS has a way to high CD but that would be misplaced here.

> > What i want to say is: Projectile deflect with PbAoE dmg and movement is not OP with current dmg (without boons and condis) and you could still counter play it with just waiting or CC because WD has no stab and ranger has not many stab sources.

>

> People keep bringing up dagger storm and I don't know why.

> Dagger storm isn't taken on the thief because for a 90s cooldown the effect is bad. It's basically a non-damaging version of WD with a ranged cripple on it and some stab at three times the cooldown that occupies an elite skill slot contending with Basilisk Venom. It does nothing to deny zoning and the thief has poor synergy with animation locks since it lacks an on-demand invuln like Signet of Stone if it gets rushed into melee.

>

> WD literally does more than ten times the damage. It's currently the hardest-hitting skill in the entire game in the PvP formats, only beaten in PvE by WA which has no defensive aspect at all/smaller radius and was nerfed and split in PvP/WvW for being too overpowered. Getting rid of the retal and vuln while allowing movement simply isn't enough on what's already a defensive-natured zoning skill.

>

> I'm just thinking of how silly the combos would be. Something like Longbow + A/A Raven SB. PBS/RF standard combo to force stab/proc immunity/stunbreak 1 or they die, follow-up with Raven Swoop into Prelude Lash to force a second stunbreak and cleanse, then time any residual boons with Axe 4 + QZ into WD is a guaranteed follow-through and CC while your opponent burned everything to get past the initial assault and literally cant outrun a super-sped hundred blades with higher range and +50% more damage.

 

I don't know why every time you say that "It's currently the hardest-hitting skill in the entire game in the PvP formats, only beaten in PvE by WA which has no defensive aspect at all/smaller radius and was nerfed and split in PvP/WvW for being too overpowered."

I did test on dummy with both skills, and the damage was almost the same. Even WD has higher numbers multiplier + vulnerability, still both do almost the same damage.

So WD is not much better than WA. And movement is way better than retaliation.

Please do some tests with your warrior and your ranger in sPVP. Use a glass cannon built for both and do the test ... even in sPVP and WvW ranger with zerk build don't have any chance to survive, instead warrior can fight vs 2 ppl or more. So when you compare something you must have in mind all aspect ... in a real combat can they survive ? or one of them is just a glass cannon who can do 100k damage , but he will not have the chance because he will die in middle of casting ...

Don't talk theory crafting .... pls ... just test it for real.

 

PS: If you want a proper and real test for WvW ... if a ranger would face a warrior and if you want that ranger win, you should chose ranger with Survi/Nature/Soulbeast and Marauder (if not wanderer)+knight accesories (for toughness) and warrior could be full zerk (or Marauder + zerk accesories) ... So glass cannon ranger is not the right build to test WD vs warrior zerk WA.

[Substance E.4852]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> I'm just thinking of how silly the combos would be. Something like Longbow + A/A Raven SB. PBS/RF standard combo to force stab/proc immunity/stunbreak 1 or they die, follow-up with Raven Swoop into Prelude Lash to force a second stunbreak and cleanse, then time any residual boons with Axe 4 + QZ into WD is a guaranteed follow-through and CC while your opponent burned everything to get past the initial assault and literally cant outrun a super-sped hundred blades with higher range and +50% more damage.

 

Implying a mobile version wouldn't see a damage pvp nerf the same that whirling axe did.

[Darkened.4076]

> @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > @"Darkened.4076" said:

> > > @"Krispera.5087" said:

> > > You can't really compare Whirling Defense and Hundred Blades. Hundred Blades DO more damage than Whirling Defense, you just did a comparison on damage, when you didn't take in consideration the cooldown in the calculations. You can do 3 Hundred Blades in a whole Whirling Defense cooldown. Actually, it shows even further that Whirling Defense needs something more.

> > >

> > > I like the idea of Block in the whole channelling of Whirling Defense. It will give S/A a ''Counterattack''.

> > >

> > > OH Axe is barely used in any modes and it can't even give us enough damage to be Power DPS in instances. Any ideas are welcomed at this point.

> >

> > I was going to mention this myself. I'm a huge fan of the block idea.

> >

> > Axes in general need a small buff, ranger 'currently' has no viable power option in DPS PVE right now [not the only game-mode I play, but I kitten hate playing condition on the ranger, shortbow gets on my nerves]. I'm pretty sure that every class has a power and condition option right now - could be wrong about that though.

> > Axes in general could use a little help in the other game-modes too.

>

> Its not that ranger dont have power DPS. Its that they lack one handing weapons to do power dps.

> Sword is go to PvP MH because if many evades, sadly it has not much use for PvE because it does not bring much utility on the table and slow skills which reduce DPS.

> AxE OH doeant make stuff easier by being either difgicult to aim or an immovable object.

 

Thank you for your response, but your making an assumption that I do not seem to understand that a ranger has power options?

- I didn't say that, I said it has 'no viable' power dps option [i.E a competitive power option that wont be laughed out of a group that wants to clear things at certain speed/competitive level and that can pull successful, consistent dps].

- Yea you can play anything you want, but its the first thing to get questioned when you don't start making timers or certain numbers etc. Keep in mind, I actually play power in all game modes [developing a build at least for PVE - will see how it goes], and that's because, as mentioned above, I fucking hate the way condition damage works in this game. Condition builds are just 20 times easier to play and do not feel as rewarding, I don't care who that triggers, it's my opinion having played it.

 

To comment further on your point though:

- The problem actually goes further than what you suggest in my opinion. The issue is that GS and 1HS - BOTH - have survival kits built into their skill sets [and I'm **completely fine** with this - and do **NOT** want this changed] - however, the issue is that there is nothing in the rangers kit filling the second weapon slot void outside of the obvious first weapon axe+axe setup (or WH).

- Longbow is not an option because of the scaling damage further away on AA [good luck getting buffs whilst not in melee]. Second you have the issue of the MUST take marksmanship trait line if taking longbow. Taking longbow and its traitline, completely messes up being able to take BM/Skirmish with an elite option. Skirmish is pretty much a MUST take due to quickdraw/spotter, and if your running Axe [which you will be for power], your stupid not take the BM trait line for the axe specialization - when paired with SB, as it also provides the additional needed stat increases between pet rotations on hard hitting abilities.

- I personally love the BM line, especially with axe+axe and GS. I would be fine with GS in PVE [only] having a little more damage - I don't see why not. But it would be even better if you could legit be able to choose between GS or 1HS+WH/AXE. I don't think its asking a lot, other professions have options.

*Note here, that I am not requesting nor advocating being 'over-powered' as people like to claim as a counter-argument, merely that their be a competitive option(s) [without losing class or skill identity]. There is a skill split for a reason now.

 

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > > > Rangers: "Whirlling Defense is fine. Learn how to use it properly."

> > > Because people insist this skill should be a DPS tool when it's not even supposed to be.

> > >

> > > Because people want their class to be top DPS and always included in every area of the game and thus project some degree of internal bias.

> > >

> > > I swear it's like I'm the only person on these boards who's okay with not buffing the classes I play into oblivion because I value the integrity of combat and the game overall more than being OP.

> > I mean daggerstorm reflects projectiles, has movement and throws projectiles that apply damaging condis and i personally havent seen it in WvW except some rare occasions. And in these occassions it didnt really had a big effect in the end except that we had trouble AoEing/range attacking him due to his movement. It can be debated if DS has a way to high CD but that would be misplaced here.

> > What i want to say is: Projectile deflect with PbAoE dmg and movement is not OP with current dmg (without boons and condis) and you could still counter play it with just waiting or CC because WD has no stab and ranger has not many stab sources.

> WD literally does more than ten times the damage. It's currently the hardest-hitting skill in the entire game in the PvP formats, only beaten in PvE by WA which has no defensive aspect at all/smaller radius and was nerfed and split in PvP/WvW for being too overpowered. Getting rid of the retal and vuln while allowing movement simply isn't enough on what's already a defensive-natured zoning skill.

 

A couple of points here.

- You make the claim that WD isn't a DPS tool, yet than say its one of the hardest hitting skills in the game. So I have an issue with this statement. There is zero reason why skills can't have multiple identities and uses across different game-modes. There is zero reason why WD cannot not be a DPS and Defensive tool, whilst being balanced by its CD and easy as fuck to get away from mechanic [i'm totally fine with it being a 'sitting duck' btw].

- The skill [WD] is missing something for PVP aspects of the game. I think the addition of adding a Block to the skill a fair addition [the fact that blocking can be countered by multiple abilities and professions anyway, would keep this in check and if you continue to cast, you would literally be taking free damage from your opponent, as your not moving]. What the block does add though, is legitimate different options and applications for the skills use. By keeping the skill stationary, there is no need for a damage nerf, nor should there be one. This would also give another viable alternative to running GS as a survival weapon choice for power builds [or, even ditching longbow, and going GS/Axe+Axe or full melee].

- As I said above, I have no want or need for ranger to become the best DPS class in the game, BUT, I would like a power option that sits mid table of the charts. I would also like to see AXE have more use in the competitive pvp modes of the game in general.

 

TLDR: WD is a dps and a defensive ability, and there should be no reason why not. Balanced by CD. Needs a little extra help to actually be used in competitive modes as an additional option, but not OP.

 

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"Darkened.4076" said:

 

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > > @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > > > > Rangers: "Whirlling Defense is fine. Learn how to use it properly."

> > > > Because people insist this skill should be a DPS tool when it's not even supposed to be.

> > > >

> > > > Because people want their class to be top DPS and always included in every area of the game and thus project some degree of internal bias.

> > > >

> > > > I swear it's like I'm the only person on these boards who's okay with not buffing the classes I play into oblivion because I value the integrity of combat and the game overall more than being OP.

> > > I mean daggerstorm reflects projectiles, has movement and throws projectiles that apply damaging condis and i personally havent seen it in WvW except some rare occasions. And in these occassions it didnt really had a big effect in the end except that we had trouble AoEing/range attacking him due to his movement. It can be debated if DS has a way to high CD but that would be misplaced here.

> > > What i want to say is: Projectile deflect with PbAoE dmg and movement is not OP with current dmg (without boons and condis) and you could still counter play it with just waiting or CC because WD has no stab and ranger has not many stab sources.

> > WD literally does more than ten times the damage. It's currently the hardest-hitting skill in the entire game in the PvP formats, only beaten in PvE by WA which has no defensive aspect at all/smaller radius and was nerfed and split in PvP/WvW for being too overpowered. Getting rid of the retal and vuln while allowing movement simply isn't enough on what's already a defensive-natured zoning skill.

>

> A couple of points here.

> - You make the claim that WD isn't a DPS tool, yet than say its one of the hardest hitting skills in the game. So I have an issue with this statement. There is zero reason why skills can't have multiple identities and uses across different game-modes. There is zero reason why WD cannot not be a DPS and Defensive tool, whilst being balanced by its CD and easy as kitten to get away from mechanic [i'm totally fine with it being a 'sitting duck' btw].

> - The skill [WD] is missing something for PVP aspects of the game. I think the addition of adding a Block to the skill a fair addition [the fact that blocking can be countered by multiple abilities and professions anyway, would keep this in check and if you continue to cast, you would literally be taking free damage from your opponent, as your not moving]. What the block does add though, is legitimate different options and applications for the skills use. By keeping the skill stationary, there is no need for a damage nerf, nor should there be one. This would also give another viable alternative to running GS as a survival weapon choice for power builds [or, even ditching longbow, and going GS/Axe+Axe or full melee].

> - As I said above, I have no want or need for ranger to become the best DPS class in the game, BUT, I would like a power option that sits mid table of the charts. I would also like to see AXE have more use in the competitive pvp modes of the game in general.

>

> TLDR: WD is a dps and a defensive ability, and there should be no reason why not. Balanced by CD. Needs a little extra help to actually be used in competitive modes as an additional option, but not OP.

>

 

Just one question ... and please be fair and answer me frankly ... do you use Axe OH in sPVP or WvW? I mean you use it often ?

Thank you!

[Darkened.4076]

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > @"Darkened.4076" said:

>

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > > > @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > > > > > Rangers: "Whirlling Defense is fine. Learn how to use it properly."

> > > > > Because people insist this skill should be a DPS tool when it's not even supposed to be.

> > > > >

> > > > > Because people want their class to be top DPS and always included in every area of the game and thus project some degree of internal bias.

> > > > >

> > > > > I swear it's like I'm the only person on these boards who's okay with not buffing the classes I play into oblivion because I value the integrity of combat and the game overall more than being OP.

> > > > I mean daggerstorm reflects projectiles, has movement and throws projectiles that apply damaging condis and i personally havent seen it in WvW except some rare occasions. And in these occassions it didnt really had a big effect in the end except that we had trouble AoEing/range attacking him due to his movement. It can be debated if DS has a way to high CD but that would be misplaced here.

> > > > What i want to say is: Projectile deflect with PbAoE dmg and movement is not OP with current dmg (without boons and condis) and you could still counter play it with just waiting or CC because WD has no stab and ranger has not many stab sources.

> > > WD literally does more than ten times the damage. It's currently the hardest-hitting skill in the entire game in the PvP formats, only beaten in PvE by WA which has no defensive aspect at all/smaller radius and was nerfed and split in PvP/WvW for being too overpowered. Getting rid of the retal and vuln while allowing movement simply isn't enough on what's already a defensive-natured zoning skill.

> >

> > A couple of points here.

> > - You make the claim that WD isn't a DPS tool, yet than say its one of the hardest hitting skills in the game. So I have an issue with this statement. There is zero reason why skills can't have multiple identities and uses across different game-modes. There is zero reason why WD cannot not be a DPS and Defensive tool, whilst being balanced by its CD and easy as kitten to get away from mechanic [i'm totally fine with it being a 'sitting duck' btw].

> > - The skill [WD] is missing something for PVP aspects of the game. I think the addition of adding a Block to the skill a fair addition [the fact that blocking can be countered by multiple abilities and professions anyway, would keep this in check and if you continue to cast, you would literally be taking free damage from your opponent, as your not moving]. What the block does add though, is legitimate different options and applications for the skills use. By keeping the skill stationary, there is no need for a damage nerf, nor should there be one. This would also give another viable alternative to running GS as a survival weapon choice for power builds [or, even ditching longbow, and going GS/Axe+Axe or full melee].

> > - As I said above, I have no want or need for ranger to become the best DPS class in the game, BUT, I would like a power option that sits mid table of the charts. I would also like to see AXE have more use in the competitive pvp modes of the game in general.

> >

> > TLDR: WD is a dps and a defensive ability, and there should be no reason why not. Balanced by CD. Needs a little extra help to actually be used in competitive modes as an additional option, but not OP.

> >

>

> Just one question ... and please be fair and answer me frankly ... do you use Axe OH in sPVP or WvW? I mean you use it often ?

> Thank you!

 

Without a block on WD, there is no way in hell I would use it in either game-mode [as is implied]. The reason is, without a block, you will get blown up straight away by any half decent player or area+ground based denial/aoe skills. Secondly, if you are in a position to even use this skill, good luck hitting tanks/train [whilst they hit you] and also taking a stupid amount of retal damage in return. You can deal with retal return on the LB because your at range, and have sustain options in between the damage CD's on that weapon. This is why I believe block to be a sensible and reasonable addition to WD, without it becoming OP. Staying still for the amount of damage you get in return [if you can pull it off] is fine, because it will take timing, and skill to use.

 

I do however, use Axe offhand in my power PVE build as mentioned above, as a dps tool and additional break bar tool.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"Darkened.4076" said:

> > @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > Just one question ... and please be fair and answer me frankly ... do you use Axe OH in sPVP or WvW? I mean you use it often ?

> > Thank you!

>

> Without a block on WD, there is no way in hell I would use it in either game-mode [as is implied]. The reason is, without a block, you will get blown up straight away by any half decent player or area+ground based denial/aoe skills. Secondly, if you are in a position to even use this skill, good luck hitting tanks/train [whilst they hit you] and also taking a stupid amount of retal damage in return. You can deal with retal return on the LB because your at range, and have sustain options in between the damage CD's on that weapon. This is why I believe block to be a sensible and reasonable addition to WD, without it becoming OP. Staying still for the amount of damage you get in return [if you can pull it off] is fine, because it will take timing, and skill to use.

>

> I do however, use Axe offhand in my power PVE build as mentioned above, as a dps tool and additional break bar tool.

 

Thank you for you honest answer. My point was to see why you are ok with "sitting duck" status atm of WD . Even WD didn't offer a block (I would like this too) we are few ppl who use it often, not for defense (because retaliation is not a defense thing) but for main damage beside rapid fire of LB. Still because of "sitting duck" many time we fail to do more than 200-1k maximum damage and in the same time we get a lot of damage. This is the reason I asked that this skill shouldn't be "sitting duck". I am agree that they could chose between block and movement skill.

[Darkened.4076]

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > @"Darkened.4076" said:

> > > @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > > Just one question ... and please be fair and answer me frankly ... do you use Axe OH in sPVP or WvW? I mean you use it often ?

> > > Thank you!

> >

> > Without a block on WD, there is no way in hell I would use it in either game-mode [as is implied]. The reason is, without a block, you will get blown up straight away by any half decent player or area+ground based denial/aoe skills. Secondly, if you are in a position to even use this skill, good luck hitting tanks/train [whilst they hit you] and also taking a stupid amount of retal damage in return. You can deal with retal return on the LB because your at range, and have sustain options in between the damage CD's on that weapon. This is why I believe block to be a sensible and reasonable addition to WD, without it becoming OP. Staying still for the amount of damage you get in return [if you can pull it off] is fine, because it will take timing, and skill to use.

> >

> > I do however, use Axe offhand in my power PVE build as mentioned above, as a dps tool and additional break bar tool.

>

> Thank you for you honest answer. My point was to see why you are ok with "sitting duck" status atm of WD . Even WD didn't offer a block (I would like this too) we are few ppl who use it often, not for defense (because retaliation is not a defense thing) but for main damage beside rapid fire of LB. Still because of "sitting duck" many time we fail to do more than 200-1k maximum damage and in the same time we get a lot of damage. This is the reason I asked that this skill shouldn't be "sitting duck". I am agree that they could chose between block and movement skill.

 

To keep skill identity the skill would have to remain stationary [otherwise it would become just like the warrior/thief versions].

All it needs is the block, to make the skill actually usable in these game modes. It would still be well balanced.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"Darkened.4076" said:

> To keep skill identity the skill would have to remain stationary [otherwise it would become just like the warrior/thief versions].

> All it needs is the block, to make the skill actually usable in these game modes. It would still be well balanced.

 

I am sorry :) , but I don't want this kind of identity ... I want to be mobile, because our class supposed to be like ... Remember that many skills were changed ... so identity doesn't have nothing here ... it's all about to be or not to be effective .

[Darkened.4076]

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > @"Darkened.4076" said:

> > To keep skill identity the skill would have to remain stationary [otherwise it would become just like the warrior/thief versions].

> > All it needs is the block, to make the skill actually usable in these game modes. It would still be well balanced.

>

> I am sorry :) , but I don't want this kind of identity ... I want to be mobile, because our class supposed to be like ... Remember that many skills were changed ... so identity doesn't have nothing here ... it's all about to be or not to be effective .

 

You might want the skill to be mobile, but that doesn't change the fact that the skill would then become subject to homogenization, and thus damage it's identity and the game as a whole.

I agree it needs something additional, and I have stated what that is. It should not be movement. If you want movement in with an axe skill, you can play warrior :)