Keeping Up with the Clones

[notebene.3190]

Since the big Mesmer update, something happened to me that I was really expecting after reading the changes to Phantasms. I was expecting to 'lose' them more frequently, as they do their attack then turn into Clones. Which was actually fine for me, as the build I selected for my Chrono seems to want to shatter a lot, at least to cycle in Continuum Split, but I probably wasn't doing a good job of keeping up with that, and probably needed to twist in some more shatters when that was on cool down.

 

Before the patch, I had plenty of clones, but really my abilities seemed split between Phantasms and Clones. So they were coming from somewhere? I figured the Phantasms would do their move, and then go away and I'd be constantly peaked at 3 clones and needing to shatter more.

 

What I'm finding is that I'm having a 'really' hard time generating any clones. I usually have only one. Sometimes I can get 2. What I can't seem to do is roll up to 3 quickly. I'm not really sure what I did. The only big change I made in my build is I dropped Dom for Illusions (keeping Inspiration and Chrono). I don't see anything in Dom that says "have lots of clones" or anything to that effect.

 

So any thoughts as to why I'm having a hard time generating clones?

[eldenbri.1059]

It may help if you link your build.

 

Like you, I play chrono. If you used chrono phantasma trait previously, it filled two of your circles on each cast (they weren't clones, but the phantasms counted toward your limit). Now, each phantasm cast results in one clone, so it's half the shatter fodder.

 

And there's two other things I notice. Some phantasms have a long attack cycle. So if you have chrono phantasma, you get the first phantasm attack, a 1.5 second delay, the second attack, and then a clone (assuming that the phantasm didn't get destroyed). So it can be tricky to have that clone appear when you want to get three clones at once. Lastly, if you had the illusionary reversion trait, you were more likely to have extra clones previously. If you started with two phantasms and a clone, you were immediately back to three illusions after the first shatter (the two phantasms re-summoned, and one clone from illusionary reversion). Then if you shattered again immediately, you still had one clone from illusionary reversion.

 

Here are some things you might try:

- Staff creates two phantasms each cast, so you get two clones at the same time

- Traited Greatsword creates two berserkers

- Shield can give you two clones pretty close together if you successfully block with the first use

[Levetty.1279]

Are you using Chronophantasma?

[Jace al Thor.6745]

Eldenbri covers some good points but seeing your build will help us the most

[notebene.3190]

What is the easiest way to post my build? I see it shows my character builds at gw2timer, which must be pulling them from the API, but I don't see a way to link to it, or 'pass' that information to some other builder. Is there a builder where you can put your API code in and pick a character and voila?

 

I'm Sword/Sword and Sword/Board. I got pretty used to that, but sometimes would use a wand if I needed some range. I have a GS and Staff laying around, but haven't used them in a long time. Was hoping not to switch that part up too much, as one of my swords and the board are ascended at this point.

 

> @"Levetty.1279" said:

> Are you using Chronophantasma?

 

Ah! As a matter of fact, I am. Which should I use in place of that?

[Yukio blaster.9082]

link the build

[Levetty.1279]

Chronophantasma is pretty strong but if you want to focus on shatters then the down side of it is you will have to wait a long time between casting a phantasm and getting the clone. Seize the Moment is pretty good if you shatter a lot since you will get a lot of quickness out of it.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"notebene.3190" said:

> What is the easiest way to post my build? I see it shows my character builds at gw2timer, which must be pulling them from the API, but I don't see a way to link to it, or 'pass' that information to some other builder. Is there a builder where you can put your API code in and pick a character and voila?

>

> I'm Sword/Sword and Sword/Board. I got pretty used to that, but sometimes would use a wand if I needed some range. I have a GS and Staff laying around, but haven't used them in a long time. Was hoping not to switch that part up too much, as one of my swords and the board are ascended at this point.

>

> > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > Are you using Chronophantasma?

>

> Ah! As a matter of fact, I am. Which should I use in place of that?

 

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/

 

Use the above link and put in your gear, traits, skills, etc. be sure to select the game mode as well.

 

Nothing is wrong per say with CP, but like Levetty says it does take a few extra seconds for them to become clones.

The other thing is shield, in my opinion, is horrible for clone generation. You’re better off taking Sw/Sh with staff or GS as both of those are better for clone generation. But once you post your build so we can see traits etc it’ll be easier to help.

[notebene.3190]

Ok, [this](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhEQRAsc8encfClfi9fCGoBEgilnjCdx+gG4sACgEr+PT0FF-e "this") is what I look like.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"notebene.3190" said:

> Ok, [this](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhEQRAsc8encfClfi9fCGoBEgilnjCdx+gG4sACgEr+PT0FF-e "this") is what I look like.

 

Ok so for clone production I would drop Inspiration or Inspiration and either pick up Dom for GS trait to get two zerkers(requires a different weapon set than you currently run) or pick up dueling for despectice evasion so you have clone on dodge.

If it’s just open world content you don’t need Inspiration and two zerkers will plow through mobs. If it’s fractals/raids then unless your support you really still don’t need Inspiration so it’s best candidate to drop.

The thing is with traited GS or non traited staff you can output more phantasms than with your current setup. More phantasms means more clones.

[notebene.3190]

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > @"notebene.3190" said:

> > Ok, [this](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhEQRAsc8encfClfi9fCGoBEgilnjCdx+gG4sACgEr+PT0FF-e "this") is what I look like.

>

> Ok so for clone production I would drop Inspiration or Inspiration and either pick up Dom for GS trait to get two zerkers(requires a different weapon set than you currently run) or pick up dueling for despectice evasion so you have clone on dodge.

> If it’s just open world content you don’t need Inspiration and two zerkers will plow through mobs. If it’s fractals/raids then unless your support you really still don’t need Inspiration so it’s best candidate to drop.

> The thing is with traited GS or non traited staff you can output more phantasms than with your current setup. More phantasms means more clones.

 

I actually had Dom pre-patch and swapped it for Illusions. I guess I should keep Dom and Illusions and lose Inspiration? I like my sword, and 'kinda' like the 2 swords (mostly for aesthetic reasons, I suppose). I think before I made the Chrono, I was sword/sword and sword/pistol. Before that I did a 'lot' of GS, as a lot of other people did. I guess I could go back to that. I recall doing a little wand at some point? Not sure how excited I am to do GS again, but I guess that would be fine. Or staff. What would you pair with the GW or Staff then? One of my swords and the shield are ascended, so I suppose based on that alone, it would make the most sense to do sword/shield, but I do really like those 2 swords.

 

Does it make sense for me to be Chrono and not use a shield somewhere? I guess my Weaver uses a staff, doesn't bother with a sword.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"notebene.3190" said:

> > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > > @"notebene.3190" said:

> > > Ok, [this](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhEQRAsc8encfClfi9fCGoBEgilnjCdx+gG4sACgEr+PT0FF-e "this") is what I look like.

> >

> > Ok so for clone production I would drop Inspiration or Inspiration and either pick up Dom for GS trait to get two zerkers(requires a different weapon set than you currently run) or pick up dueling for despectice evasion so you have clone on dodge.

> > If it’s just open world content you don’t need Inspiration and two zerkers will plow through mobs. If it’s fractals/raids then unless your support you really still don’t need Inspiration so it’s best candidate to drop.

> > The thing is with traited GS or non traited staff you can output more phantasms than with your current setup. More phantasms means more clones.

>

> I actually had Dom pre-patch and swapped it for Illusions. I guess I should keep Dom and Illusions and lose Inspiration? I like my sword, and 'kinda' like the 2 swords (mostly for aesthetic reasons, I suppose). I think before I made the Chrono, I was sword/sword and sword/pistol. Before that I did a 'lot' of GS, as a lot of other people did. I guess I could go back to that. I recall doing a little wand at some point? Not sure how excited I am to do GS again, but I guess that would be fine. Or staff. What would you pair with the GW or Staff then? One of my swords and the shield are ascended, so I suppose based on that alone, it would make the most sense to do sword/shield, but I do really like those 2 swords.

>

> Does it make sense for me to be Chrono and not use a shield somewhere? I guess my Weaver uses a staff, doesn't bother with a sword.

 

Mhmm. You should have enough condi clear with the well for PvE so you don’t really need Inspiration.

You can run Sw/Sh if you wanted. From a PvP perspective I see quite a bit of people run Sw/Sh Gs for damage or Staff for a more bunker oriented spec.

You can run the set you have now, you just won’t summon as many clones as I could with a separate weapon set. Levetty can steer you further in the right direction as he’s more knowledgeable than I in PvE. @"Pyroatheist.9031" can as well. I’m pvp WvW oriented myself.

[notebene.3190]

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > @"notebene.3190" said:

> > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > > > @"notebene.3190" said:

> > > > Ok, [this](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhEQRAsc8encfClfi9fCGoBEgilnjCdx+gG4sACgEr+PT0FF-e "this") is what I look like.

> > >

> > > Ok so for clone production I would drop Inspiration or Inspiration and either pick up Dom for GS trait to get two zerkers(requires a different weapon set than you currently run) or pick up dueling for despectice evasion so you have clone on dodge.

> > > If it’s just open world content you don’t need Inspiration and two zerkers will plow through mobs. If it’s fractals/raids then unless your support you really still don’t need Inspiration so it’s best candidate to drop.

> > > The thing is with traited GS or non traited staff you can output more phantasms than with your current setup. More phantasms means more clones.

> >

> > I actually had Dom pre-patch and swapped it for Illusions. I guess I should keep Dom and Illusions and lose Inspiration? I like my sword, and 'kinda' like the 2 swords (mostly for aesthetic reasons, I suppose). I think before I made the Chrono, I was sword/sword and sword/pistol. Before that I did a 'lot' of GS, as a lot of other people did. I guess I could go back to that. I recall doing a little wand at some point? Not sure how excited I am to do GS again, but I guess that would be fine. Or staff. What would you pair with the GW or Staff then? One of my swords and the shield are ascended, so I suppose based on that alone, it would make the most sense to do sword/shield, but I do really like those 2 swords.

> >

> > Does it make sense for me to be Chrono and not use a shield somewhere? I guess my Weaver uses a staff, doesn't bother with a sword.

>

> Mhmm. You should have enough condi clear with the well for PvE so you don’t really need Inspiration.

> You can run Sw/Sh if you wanted. From a PvP perspective I see quite a bit of people run Sw/Sh Gs for damage or Staff for a more bunker oriented spec.

> You can run the set you have now, you just won’t summon as many clones as I could with a separate weapon set. Levetty can steer you further in the right direction as he’s more knowledgeable than I in PvE. @"Pyroatheist.9031" can as well. I’m pvp WvW oriented myself.

 

Thank you. I'm going to try Sw/Sh + GS for awhile with Inspiration swapped for Domination w/ 'Imagined Burden' and see how that works for awhile. I'll have to rummage around and see if I don't have an ascended GS I'm not using on another character, or see about crafting a new one. :)

[Pyroatheist.9031]

So I can recommend various builds to use, but they're unlikely to fix the issue you're experiencing. This is a complaint that you're definitely not alone in making and there really isn't an effective way to avoid it.

 

The issue is this: due to the new mechanics, chronophantasma will cause your clone generation to be put on a delay of anywhere from 5 to 20 seconds.

 

This can be pretty awful. You *do* actually have fairly substantial clone generation, but they only actually get generated an incredibly long time after you use the phantasms. This time is not fixed and will change based on traits, boom duration, positioning, and enemy actions. This makes it extremely hard to actually count on having clones when you want them. I deal with this in one of two ways.

 

1. When playing a raid buffing boon setup, I usually run chaos for BD. This means that I basically ignore how many clones I have and use every shatter off cooldown. In this case I don't really care about the clones because I'm always shattering.

2. Take shatter storm. What this does is allow you to watch your clones and only shatter once you have 2 or more. The ammo mechanic allows you to rapidly shatter twice in a row if a bunch of clones happen to spawn at once from delayed phantasms, that way you won't waste clones.

 

In the open world though, you're often going to kill targets before the phantasms convert to clones. This means you won't shatter as much, but there's no actual problem with that since you're killing things anyway.

[RabbitUp.8294]

In organised pve with perma Improved Alacrity, you will have more clones. This is mainly an issue for open world. Shatters are not amazing damage, though, a full F1 does less damage than a phantasm, but it's another cooldown to use.

 

What I do is use Signet of Illusions in pve. Some might not like it, because there are times that a clone will pop just as you are about to exit combat, which will attack something and put you back into combat, but it's another clone generator. Also, use your weapons' clone skills, instead of waiting for phantasms to die. Sword 3 is easy enough, use sword 4 instead of dodging.

[notebene.3190]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> In the open world though, you're often going to kill targets before the phantasms convert to clones. This means you won't shatter as much, but there's no actual problem with that since you're killing things anyway.

 

I used to be able to spin up 3 clones really quick to get Continuum Split out, drop a bunch of wells, and then the rewind would refresh all my wells. It was a lot of fun. It didn't take a really big monster or group to do that either.

 

> @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> Shatters are not amazing damage, though, a full F1 does less damage than a phantasm, but it's another cooldown to use.

>

> What I do is use Signet of Illusions in pve. Some might not like it, because there are times that a clone will pop just as you are about to exit combat, which will attack something and put you back into combat, but it's another clone generator. Also, use your weapons' clone skills, instead of waiting for phantasms to die. Sword 3 is easy enough, use sword 4 instead of dodging.

 

Yeah, not so much damage, but as a Chrono, being able to do Continuum Split early in a fight at full clones and (if I'm fast) get a full set of wells out, or at least 3 of them, then have them refreshed in a few seconds to be able to use them all again., that was great.

 

 

What's funny is the changes 'seemed' to read like I was going to have a 'lot' more clones, and lose on phantom power, since they wouldn't hang out and fight any more and would convert to clones. I guess what got lost in translation for me was a reduction of clone generation somewhere else maybe?

 

I mean, I was Sw/Sw + Sw/Sh. I could start in Sw/Sw and do a 3 and 5, which was a clone, possibly 2 before. Then flip to Sw/Sh and usually time a block and I was at 3, hit my CS, drop wells, maybe that shield 5 skill in there, I think, and then my wells were refreshed and I was rewound and drop some more wells out. While that all happened, I was back at 3 clones, and could bank them for my next CS or get another shatter in while CS was on cool down.

 

So, I guess it's a little confusing to me why I lost my clone generating ability in that big patch, when it sounded like what was going to happen was I was going to lose my phantasms loitering, and have a 'lot' more clones and I'd be popping shatters and my CS to my hearts content. What actually ended up happening, I haven't gotten my head around.

 

Update: Rereading @Pyroatheist.9031, I guess that really does explain it. Did Chronophantasm not used to do that? Does that explain 'all' the clone loss?

[notebene.3190]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> So I can recommend various builds to use, but they're unlikely to fix the issue you're experiencing. This is a complaint that you're definitely not alone in making and there really isn't an effective way to avoid it.

>

> The issue is this: due to the new mechanics, chronophantasma will cause your clone generation to be put on a delay of anywhere from 5 to 20 seconds.

>

> This can be pretty awful. You *do* actually have fairly substantial clone generation, but they only actually get generated an incredibly long time after you use the phantasms. This time is not fixed and will change based on traits, boom duration, positioning, and enemy actions. This makes it extremely hard to actually count on having clones when you want them. I deal with this in one of two ways.

>

> 1. When playing a raid buffing boon setup, I usually run chaos for BD. This means that I basically ignore how many clones I have and use every shatter off cooldown. In this case I don't really care about the clones because I'm always shattering.

> 2. Take shatter storm. What this does is allow you to watch your clones and only shatter once you have 2 or more. The ammo mechanic allows you to rapidly shatter twice in a row if a bunch of clones happen to spawn at once from delayed phantasms, that way you won't waste clones.

>

> In the open world though, you're often going to kill targets before the phantasms convert to clones. This means you won't shatter as much, but there's no actual problem with that since you're killing things anyway.

 

Okay, I'm [trying this](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhEQRAsc8OW6Nq6RtVnVzA4CyI0bYIiBA-e "trying this") and back on my Sw/Sw and Sw/Sh, and it seems to be going fine. And then if I feel like playing with the GS, I'll swap Chaos for Dom maybe. Thanks for the help in understanding what was happening!

[eldenbri.1059]

Keep experimenting to find what you like

 

I think if you're going to shatter a lot, you may want Master of Fragmentation over Phantasmal Force. Good luck!

[Pyroatheist.9031]

It sounds like you're extremely fuzzy on how the mechanics work at all, so let me explain it for you.

 

Previously, clones and phantasms both counted as illusions. Illusions could be shattered. The effect of chronophantasma was to cause shattered phantasms to respawn once after being shattered.

 

With the rework, phantasms can no longer be shattered. Additionally, phantasms will only perform 1 attack and then turn into a clone. Chronophantasma causes phantasms to perform their attack twice before becoming a clone.

 

The effect of this is that where you could previously put down a phantasm and then rapidly shatter it, now you have to wait for the phantasm to complete its attack and turn into a clone before you can use it in a shatter.

[notebene.3190]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> It sounds like you're extremely fuzzy on how the mechanics work at all, so let me explain it for you.

>

> Previously, clones and phantasms both counted as illusions. Illusions could be shattered. The effect of chronophantasma was to cause shattered phantasms to respawn once after being shattered.

>

> With the rework, phantasms can no longer be shattered. Additionally, phantasms will only perform 1 attack and then turn into a clone. Chronophantasma causes phantasms to perform their attack twice before becoming a clone.

>

> The effect of this is that where you could previously put down a phantasm and then rapidly shatter it, now you have to wait for the phantasm to complete its attack and turn into a clone before you can use it in a shatter.

 

Appreciate that.

 

What was confusing to me is how 'long' it takes to wait for a Phantasm to do their first attack, even without CP. I just assumed the way it worked before, a Phantasm would fight and keep fighting until it was killed or replaced, understanding I could instantly shatter and get one respawn with the old CP. While never really understanding why they didn't want a lot of Phantasms to stay around indefinitely, without shattering them, it never bothered me much, as I was always intending to shatter them, at the very least to do Continuum Split, but I usually shattered once I got 3 and CS was on cool down, or tried to.

 

What I thought would happen with the change was the Phantasm would come out, do it's attack 'immediately, and then die and become a clone. Now, it was true I didn't understand the change to CP, and that was most of my problem for sure. Even with that, I'm surprised at how long the Phantasm stays around before it becomes a clone.

 

But I (finally) learned how to go to the practice place in LA and make a golem that I can beat on and tried out a lot of your suggestions as well as some other suggestions upstream to see how I liked them, and it's making a lot more sense now, I think.