HazyDaisy.4107 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Last time I checked (about 4 hours before reset) SBI was losing fair and square, so why is SBI blue and both SBI and YB are still in T2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 SBI and YB tied in the last skirmish. Winner of T3 does not move up then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliburn.1845 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 A tie happened, which according to wiki results in the following... "This means a single, third-placing world will move down one tier and a single, first-placing world will move up one tier. If there is a tie for last, no world moves down, which also means no world in the tier below can move up (as there’s no room). Similarly, if there is a tie for first, no world moves up, which prevents the next tier up’s last-place world from moving down." https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2017-06-20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 > @"Caliburn.1845" said: > A tie happened, which according to wiki results in the following... > > "This means a single, third-placing world will move down one tier and a single, first-placing world will move up one tier. If there is a tie for last, no world moves down, which also means no world in the tier below can move up (as there’s no room). Similarly, if there is a tie for first, no world moves up, which prevents the next tier up’s last-place world from moving down." > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2017-06-20 I'd prefer it if Anet broke the tie in some manner (flip a coin, etc) instead of T3 becoming stagnant (two servers in the match are the same as last week) because of a tie in T2 last week. T3 being affected to this extent by the results of last week's T2 matchup makes the opposite of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazyDaisy.4107 Posted March 10, 2018 Author Share Posted March 10, 2018 Well in that case, quite the miraculous comeback :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kovu.7560 Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > instead of T3 becoming stagnant **(two servers in the match are the same as last week)** because of a tie in T2 last week. T3 being affected to this extent by the results of last week's T2 matchup makes the opposite of sense. You know, like T1 and T4 _every_ week. Its just one week. Not the end of the world. ~ Kovu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlySynz.3471 Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Hmmm I can see how this could easily manipulated; i wasn't aware this could even happen, and I'm sure many others didn't realize it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiny Doom.4380 Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 > @"HazyDaisy.4107" said: > Well in that case, quite the miraculous comeback :) Final day of the match was excellent. SBI were well behind on Thursday but Friday they burned hard all day. At one point they took YB's T3 EBG keep with a massive golem rush and later on they ninjaed YB's T3 garri. SBI pulled ahead of YB but YB rallied very late and just managed to come back enough to pull even on the final skirmish. Best end to a T2 match for a few months. It gets very wird sometimes, with two or even three teams trying to win the weekend then tank in the week so as not to go to T1, then having to change course when it looks as though they might go to T3 instead. You basically have three teams all trying to come second some weeks. At least this time JQ seemed happy enough to go to T1 - they'll be back in T2 next week, of course. Apologies for match up thread but it was a really exciting match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > Hmmm I can see how this could easily manipulated; i wasn't aware this could even happen, and I'm sure many others didn't realize it as well. Don't think too much. This is simply population imbalance issue. The difference in coverage and interests of the different coverage somehow balance the ppt up. The issue will resolve itself if the population imbalance is resolved. By now, many should know that the off hours coverage in numerous servers are very unbalanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > Hmmm I can see how this could easily manipulated; i wasn't aware this could even happen, and I'm sure many others didn't realize it as well. > > Don't think too much. This is simply population imbalance issue. The difference in coverage and interests of the different coverage somehow balance the ppt up. The issue will resolve itself if the population imbalance is resolved. By now, many should know that the off hours coverage in numerous servers are very unbalanced. Yea, the population imbalance of T1 matches which causes teams in T2 to tank to avoid T1, but not tank enough to get T3. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 > @"Kovu.7560" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > instead of T3 becoming stagnant **(two servers in the match are the same as last week)** because of a tie in T2 last week. T3 being affected to this extent by the results of last week's T2 matchup makes the opposite of sense. > > You know, like T1 and T4 _every_ week. > Its just one week. Not the end of the world. > > ~ Kovu T1 and T4 being essentially the same matchup every week with just one server different in each has nothing to do with any other tier. Not saying the 1u1d system is great for those tiers either. The last time there was a tie it was in T4, and Anet did make a decision as to who came in third and who came in second. Some consistency would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazyDaisy.4107 Posted March 11, 2018 Author Share Posted March 11, 2018 > @"Tiny Doom.4380" said: > > @"HazyDaisy.4107" said: > > Well in that case, quite the miraculous comeback :) > > Final day of the match was excellent. SBI were well behind on Thursday but Friday they burned hard all day. At one point they took YB's T3 EBG keep with a massive golem rush and later on they ninjaed YB's T3 garri. SBI pulled ahead of YB but YB rallied very late and just managed to come back enough to pull even on the final skirmish. Best end to a T2 match for a few months. It gets very wird sometimes, with two or even three teams trying to win the weekend then tank in the week so as not to go to T1, then having to change course when it looks as though they might go to T3 instead. You basically have three teams all trying to come second some weeks. At least this time JQ seemed happy enough to go to T1 - they'll be back in T2 next week, of course. > > Apologies for match up thread but it was a really exciting match! I've been sick for the last 4 days, so I can't be blamed for the tone of the thread ;) I call foggy head syndrome because it just didn't seem possible. Anyway, thank you for the explaination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kovu.7560 Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"Kovu.7560" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > instead of T3 becoming stagnant **(two servers in the match are the same as last week)** because of a tie in T2 last week. T3 being affected to this extent by the results of last week's T2 matchup makes the opposite of sense. > > > > You know, like T1 and T4 _every_ week. > > Its just one week. Not the end of the world. > > > > ~ Kovu > > T1 and T4 being essentially the same matchup every week with just one server different in each has nothing to do with any other tier. > > Not saying the 1u1d system is great for those tiers either. The last time there was a tie it was in T4, and Anet did make a decision as to who came in third and who came in second. Some consistency would be nice. Nothing to do with? Its _Exactly_ the same thing. The only difference is its only happening once instead of _every week_. I can't speak to T3, but T2 is great fun this week and 2/3rds of it, like the other three tiers, is the same as last week. ~ Kovu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"Kovu.7560" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > @"Kovu.7560" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > instead of T3 becoming stagnant **(two servers in the match are the same as last week)** because of a tie in T2 last week. T3 being affected to this extent by the results of last week's T2 matchup makes the opposite of sense. > > > > > > You know, like T1 and T4 _every_ week. > > > Its just one week. Not the end of the world. > > > > > > ~ Kovu > > > > T1 and T4 being essentially the same matchup every week with just one server different in each has nothing to do with any other tier. > > > > Not saying the 1u1d system is great for those tiers either. The last time there was a tie it was in T4, and Anet did make a decision as to who came in third and who came in second. Some consistency would be nice. > > Nothing to do with? Its _Exactly_ the same thing. The only difference is its only happening once instead of _every week_. > I can't speak to T3, but T2 is great fun this week and 2/3rds of it, like the other three tiers, is the same as last week. > > ~ Kovu It's not remotely the same. T1 and T4 having two of the same servers each matchup is a limitation of there being only four tiers and is not an outcome generated by the results of another tier's matchup. The results of last week's T3 matchup have largely been voided by the tie in T2, and the 1u1d system functioning in this way in the case of a tie is not a logical conclusion to come to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kovu.7560 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 They're the same _in actual effect_, not by nature of the system's rules. The rules for determining matchups haven't changed (as far as I know) since they started the 1 up 1 down. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Its like complaining that a team in a sports league gets a higher seed in the playoffs by virtue of some obscure tiebreaker rule coming into play. (Or that 2011-2012 Florida Panthers NHL team that got into the playoffs by virtue of loser points over teams with more actual wins than them. Lol.) You know the rules. Yeah, it was unexpected. No, its not unfair, and no it doesn't take away from any of the existing matchups. A T4 server swapped with a T3 server, a T1 server swapped with a T2 server -- these matchups are different and aren't nearly as stagnant as the great glicko wall days. This sort of thing is super rare, don't expect it to happen again next week. ~ Kovu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 Yet a T3 server did not swap with a T2 server. It absolutely does not matter who won in T3 last week and who came in second. Efforts to win the match were voided and not by anything that happened in the actual tier. I think just about everyone in T3 was surprised by this result because 1) this rule about servers moving/not moving in the case of a tie was pretty obscure and 2) there was no tie in T3. For anyone in T3 logging into reset, Maguuma was still down in T3 for no apparent reason. Now that this rule is more widely known because of this instance, your claim of "super rare" is fairly naive. Ties won't be as easy as outright tanking when it comes to match manipulation, but the 3, 4, 5 point system doesn't make the math difficult, particularly the closer it is to the end of a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > Yet a T3 server did not swap with a T2 server. It absolutely does not matter who won in T3 last week and who came in second. Efforts to win the match were voided and not by anything that happened in the actual tier. Look at it this way, SBI and YB tied for second place. It would not have been fair for one of them to move down just because a server won T3 last week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubi.4136 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 I'm on TC, and regularly check the other matchups to see who we will face the following week. I actually called the tie taking place Friday morning based on what I saw. I don't get why people are that worried about it. Mag is T3 cause they avoid all fights that aren't 50-70 vs half that number. Sure, you may see a 10-20 man group running around occasionally, but they are also looking for fights vs roamers or half their number. If you hit them with even numbers and don't die in 1 push, their 50 man blob instantly appears so their kdr doesn't drop or they get out of combat and port. They aren't interested in being in higher tiers because, as has been said before, they are just looking for easy loot. It's the reason that every stacked server that isn't BG doesn't want to be in higher tiers...easy loot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kovu.7560 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > this rule about servers moving/not moving in the case of a tie was pretty obscure > your claim of "super rare" is fairly naive. Wow. Okay. I guess cause and effect isn't thing anymore. I started typing a reply, only to realize I was repeating a lot of what I said in my [previous post](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/432583#Comment_432583 "previous post"). *tags Chaba - Have fun with this, I'm done with discussion before it goes in circles further. > @"Ubi.4136" said: > I'm on TC, and regularly check the other matchups to see who we will face the following week. I actually called the tie taking place Friday morning based on what I saw. I don't get why people are that worried about it. Mag is T3 cause they avoid all fights that aren't 50-70 vs half that number. Sure, you may see a 10-20 man group running around occasionally, but they are also looking for fights vs roamers or half their number. If you hit them with even numbers and don't die in 1 push, their 50 man blob instantly appears so their kdr doesn't drop or they get out of combat and port. They aren't interested in being in higher tiers because, as has been said before, they are just looking for easy loot. It's the reason that every stacked server that isn't BG doesn't want to be in higher tiers...easy loot. Mag is T3 because two servers in T2 tied. That's, like, the one thing Shadowcat stated that I agree with. In that regard they had no control over the fact that they're still in T3. It wasn't because they did poorly in the PPT game. That said, I agree, nobody wants to fight Maguuma for a lot of the reasons you listed. They're simply not fun to fight. You know who else isn't fun to fight? Blackgate, and their 80 man queues. Its certainly true they're not "easy loot", but I'd attribute it to most of the 3rd string servers in that tier simply not being able to match those numbers most of the time. (Especially outside of ebg.) ~ Kovu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euryon.9248 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 I always thought -- and it has always appeared that this is the case -- that if 2 servers finished a match with the same points, whoever finished higher in the last skirmish won the tie (whether for first or second), and that determined who moved up or down. I've seen ties several times in T4, and in every case whichever server won the final skirmish was the one that moved up to T3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > Yet a T3 server did not swap with a T2 server. It absolutely does not matter who won in T3 last week and who came in second. Efforts to win the match were voided and not by anything that happened in the actual tier. > > Look at it this way, SBI and YB tied for second place. It would not have been fair for one of them to move down just because a server won T3 last week. Flipping a coin (or any other tiebreaker) would've been fairer to both tiers. > @"Euryon.9248" said: > I always thought -- and it has always appeared that this is the case -- that if 2 servers finished a match with the same points, whoever finished higher in the last skirmish won the tie (whether for first or second), and that determined who moved up or down. I've seen ties several times in T4, and in every case whichever server won the final skirmish was the one that moved up to T3. The 1u1d system does show a clear 2nd and 3rd place when it comes to map selection in the case of a tie. SBI has the blue map this week and YB the red because SBI won the final skirmish in which they tied with YB overall. Ties should work as you've described overall. > @"Kovu.7560" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > this rule about servers moving/not moving in the case of a tie was pretty obscure > > your claim of "super rare" is fairly naive. > > Wow. Okay. I guess cause and effect isn't thing anymore. > I started typing a reply, only to realize I was repeating a lot of what I said in my [previous post](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/432583#Comment_432583 "previous post"). > *tags Chaba - Have fun with this, I'm done with discussion before it goes in circles further. > > > @"Ubi.4136" said: > > I'm on TC, and regularly check the other matchups to see who we will face the following week. I actually called the tie taking place Friday morning based on what I saw. I don't get why people are that worried about it. Mag is T3 cause they avoid all fights that aren't 50-70 vs half that number. Sure, you may see a 10-20 man group running around occasionally, but they are also looking for fights vs roamers or half their number. If you hit them with even numbers and don't die in 1 push, their 50 man blob instantly appears so their kdr doesn't drop or they get out of combat and port. They aren't interested in being in higher tiers because, as has been said before, they are just looking for easy loot. It's the reason that every stacked server that isn't BG doesn't want to be in higher tiers...easy loot. > Mag is T3 because two servers in T2 tied. That's, like, the one thing Shadowcat stated that I agree with. In that regard they had no control over the fact that they're still in T3. It wasn't because they did poorly in the PPT game. That said, I agree, nobody wants to fight Maguuma for a lot of the reasons you listed. They're simply not fun to fight. > > You know who else isn't fun to fight? Blackgate, and their 80 man queues. Its certainly true they're not "easy loot", but I'd attribute it to most of the 3rd string servers in that tier simply not being able to match those numbers most of the time. (Especially outside of ebg.) > > ~ Kovu Trust me, I'd already tired of trying to explain to you how ties functioning in this way has nothing to do with two servers being the same each week in T1 and T4. 1u1d breaking in the case of a tie instead of a tiebreaker being used only promotes chaos in a system that's already flawed and on its way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 > @"Ubi.4136" said: > I'm on TC, and regularly check the other matchups to see who we will face the following week. I actually called the tie taking place Friday morning based on what I saw. I don't get why people are that worried about it. Mag is T3 cause they avoid all fights that aren't 50-70 vs half that number. Sure, you may see a 10-20 man group running around occasionally, but they are also looking for fights vs roamers or half their number. If you hit them with even numbers and don't die in 1 push, their 50 man blob instantly appears so their kdr doesn't drop or they get out of combat and port. They aren't interested in being in higher tiers because, as has been said before, they are just looking for easy loot. It's the reason that every stacked server that isn't BG doesn't want to be in higher tiers...easy loot. Don't be easy loot and they might go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliburn.1845 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > SBI has the blue map this week and YB the red because SBI won the final skirmish in which they tied with YB overall. > SBI did not win the last skirmish. YB took the last skirmish by about 300 points above SBI. I know, I was pushing ppt to force the tie for science. As to why SBI is blue and YB is red, it could be many factors. I think possibly because SBI had a higher warscore than YB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 > @"Caliburn.1845" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > SBI has the blue map this week and YB the red because SBI won the final skirmish in which they tied with YB overall. > > > SBI did not win the last skirmish. YB took the last skirmish by about 300 points above SBI. I know, I was pushing ppt to force the tie for science. > > As to why SBI is blue and YB is red, it could be many factors. I think possibly because SBI had a higher warscore than YB. > > > My mistake. I assumed SBI took the last skirmish and got blue map as a result because the last tie was between NSP and TC in T4. In that case, NSP seemed to get blue map because they'd won the final skirmish and tied with TC with that win. Starting to think Anet races small children to decide such things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > Yet a T3 server did not swap with a T2 server. It absolutely does not matter who won in T3 last week and who came in second. Efforts to win the match were voided and not by anything that happened in the actual tier. > > > > Look at it this way, SBI and YB tied for second place. It would not have been fair for one of them to move down just because a server won T3 last week. > > Flipping a coin (or any other tiebreaker) would've been fairer to both tiers. How is randomization supposed to be fair? That would actually make players even more upset than the winner of T3 staying in place because 1u1d is predictable system. YB pushed for a tie to stay in T2. Why even do that if the results would be randomized? Let me repeat: YB pushed to stay in T2. You seem to want to deny them that "win" just because two servers are the same as last match in T3. T3 match isn't stagnant because the winner of T4 last match moved up. Yes, two servers in T3 are the same as last match, just like two servers in T2 are the same as last match. These are not stagnant matches. Stagnant is when all three servers are in the same match for weeks at a time, even whole years at a time back with the old Glicko system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts