PvP/WvW Skill Split Release – Part 2

[Carran.9158]

If you encouraging engi to go more mele-mid range with stab changes, could you please look at "Flash Spark" (Spectrum Shield Toolbelt skill), for a ~35 cd skill it gives almost nothing

Didnt Hard Light Arena get a buff on the cd?

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065"

[Ragion.2831]

@"Solori.6025" You keep talking about history and patterns when this is the first time theres been a game wide damage nerf right after power creep.

 

For some reason you want to dismiss the entire point of game balance. The goal of balancing is the same for any studio (Anet included), gameplay variety, Anet themselves have said that is the goal of the damage nerfs. Dunno why you are talking about balance when you dont know that.

 

I did read the post. Player testing is not a solution. The point of PTS is to test solutions. The only logical thing i could gather from the largely deranged rant was that we should be allowed to test changes. Do you have changes to the current problem we should test?

 

PTS is actually unnecessary for most things. Unless you are testing new concepts and skills, PTS is a waste of time. PTS is not something that works well just to test balance for the simple reason that time has a significant effect on balance. Studios generally use the live game because it can be patched whenever they want to fix balance issues.

 

Gw2 is also too complicated to test balance using PTS. Its not like Overwatch. I dont even think you know why classes have been swapping between being over powered and underpowered all these years because if you did you would not be mentioning PTS. Most don't know anyway so its not just you.

 

 

 

[Solori.6025]

> @"Ragion.2831" said:

> @"Solori.6025" You keep talking about history and patterns when this is the first time theres been a game wide damage nerf right after power creep.

>

 

If memory serves me right

This also happend shortly after HoT release

(and before that with the large "kitchen sink" patch during the first or second year of launch)

 

Numerous classes received some sort of a DPS reduction over the course of a month.

Some classes received multiple.

And while DPS game wide is being reduced

We still have the issue of sustain being conveniently left out ( there's that pattern again)

This is not the first time sustain across the board has been largely ignored.

 

This is the point I have been touching on as far as similar patterns has gone,

And you have continued to miss it or completely ignore it.

 

> For some reason you want to dismiss the entire point of game balance.

>

 

No, Actually you seem to dismiss the entire reason for the original post.

We both understand games must go through balance.

What I called for is smarter balance.

One that wont shut out multiple classes from being played or even desired for another 4-6 months.

You then brought up a balancing philosophy that largely doesnt apply to this game because again,

it has the opposite effects

> I did read the post. Player testing is not a solution. The point of PTS is to test solutions.

I disagree.

The PTS servers I have been a part of help with the final iteration of the balance patch that usually goes through.

It is a chance to get feedback on proposed changes and like we have seen with beta weekends, helps the developers some what with the final implementation.

Furthering that idea I think would be beneficial

 

 

>

> I dont even think you know why classes have been swapping between being over powered and underpowered all these years

>

 

True, though I never did claim to know?

And unfortunately I don't think the creators know too much either

Blind leading the blind.

_ If I did though_ I would have posted the coefficients they missed and why they should be changed

[Ziggityzog.7389]

Can you please fix [Vampiric Presence] by reverting it back to the previous version. Having it damage 1 target per .5 seconds is a major nerf to the health you gained previously. Sadly it was ment to be a "buff" but it is now nerfed. If changing it back isn't a option then at least make it 1/4 a second or make it hit 5 targets ever .5 seconds but once per target.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

My 2 cents in addition to previous comment:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/409994#Comment_409994

 

Mesmer will still be SS tier. The new way clones/phantasms work allows setting up shatters far more consistently along with cooldowns that were desinged to work with the old system. Decreasing damage on their best trait helps, but doesn't fix the problem that mesmers can attack and defend at the same time with little to no downtime.

 

Holosmith and Warrior are still getting overnerfed. Not much change here.

 

Thief changes are a lot more fair now. There really was no reason to buff skills that are already part of the meta and it's good to see anet did a second look at that.

 

Revenant and Renegade are still being too ignored. They don't need much, but if we really are going to be still living in this new post PoF condi powercreep where it's possible to lay down 6+ conditions with one skill then at the very least cleansing channel should remove 2 condi instead of 1. Also Renegade traits are still horribly undertuned - buffing spirits will not fix this.

 

Thank you for keeping the scourge shade delay. The 0.5 second delay was a necessary change and anyone who wants it back only wants it to exploit a broken spec.

 

[Arkantos.7460]

changes for Rev are overall a good start but soothing bastion is still lame, it interuppts when casting and block and stun on place... NO THANKS

i think rev is the only class where you cannot play with passivs because they dont work well in pvp

maybe reduce duraction of ALL other passivs or increase cd to 120 sec ... that would solve this abuse of using passiv traits

[Tiale.2430]

This is my feedback on Guardian, if you are shaving the healing power scale add more damage e utilities to other skills.

 

**# Guardian**

**## Skills**

* Tome of Justice – Chapter 3: Heated Rebuke: Increase the base damage by 100% in all modes.

* Tome of Resolve – Epilogue: Eternal Oasis: Reduced the bonus heal effectiveness from 33% to 20% in PvP and WvW

* Tome of Resolve – Chapter 3: Azure Sun: Added a blast finish to this skill.

* Tome of Resolve – Chapter 2: Radiant Recovery: Reduced the healing per condition cleansed by 35% in PvP and WvW

* Tome of Resolve – Chapter 1: Desert Bloom: Reduced healing by 17% in PvP and WvW and added a base damage to this skills. 50 Damage (1.1 Power Scale)

* Tome of Courage – Chapter 1: Unflinching Charge: Added a base damage to this skill. 200 Damage (1.1 Power Scale)

* Blazing Edge: Reduced the casting time by 1/4 in PvP and WvW.

* Faithful Strike: Reduced the casting time by 1/4 in PvP and WvW.

* Zealot's Defense: This skill no longer roots you while casting.

* Zealot's Embrace: Reduced the casting time by 1/4 in PvP and WvW.

* Banish: Reduced the casting time by 1/4 in PvP and WvW.

* Ring of Warding: Reduced the skill cooldown by 5.

* Flame Rush: Increase the base damage by 100% in PvP and WvW

* Flame Surge: Increase the base damage by 100% in Pvp and WvW

* Wave of Wrath: Increased the range by 300 in PvP and WvW.

* Signet of Resolve: Reduced the cooldown from 35 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW

* Leap of Faith: Increased damage by 14% in PvP and WvW

* Signet of Mercy: Reduced the cooldown from 150 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and WvW

* Sword of Justice: Reduced the ammo recharge time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW

* Bow of Truth: Reduced the ammo recharge time from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW

* Hammer of Wisdom: Reduced the ammo recharge time from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW

* Feel my Wrath: Reduced the cooldown from 45 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW

* Hallowed Ground: This skill now is a stunbreaker in PvP and WvW.

* Merciful Intervention: This skill now shadowstep without ally requiriment

* Test of Faith: Added 1/4 daze to this skill.

 

**## Traits**

* Stoic Demeanor: Added Chill to this trait.

* Virtuous Solace: Increased the cooldown from 75 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only

* Hunter's Determination: Increased the cooldown from 75 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only

* Hunter's Fortification: This skill no longer reduce the damage when you have no conditions on you, instead, it will reduce damage when you have conditions.

* Zealous Blade: Increased the bonus damage from 5% to 10% in PvP and WvW

* Eternal Armory: Added Cripple to the effects of this trait.

* Mystic Rebuke: Increase the damage for this skill by 10%.

 

I would like to see this changes to the Guardian gameplay.

[Velran.1052]

What's with the Jaunt nerf? It barely does any power damage as it is. Meanwhile it's incredibly strong for condi. And exhaustion is a terrible mechanic that goes against any skillful combat. Add a internal cooldown for the stun break instead, So there's at least some counterplay. Especially since mesmer has no way to directly gain endurance outside of sigils.

 

Also please address Perma-stealth thieves. I don't mind the damage that much, But having a deadeye follow you in stealth for 5 minutes just waiting for you to attack something so he can gank is not fun. Either reduce the way stealth stacks or add revealed to more skills.

[Shirlias.8104]

Finally ranger nerfed to the ground.

Or to say this better: you will be able to mantain the same damage you have now, but you have to swap from mender to a DPS neck.

 

 

[Kalan.9705]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > > > Is this just a consolidated list of the previous 2 posts within the last one?

> > >

> > > Yeah.

> >

> > Would it be safe to assume that every 2 weeks, we'd receive another revision of the balance changes?

> >

> > When would the final iteration be?

>

> This is, likely, the final iteration for this pass. We had to lock it down or risk missing our planned release. (Not announcing it yet, but it's not too far away assuming something doesn't go awry.)

>

> This doesn't mean we're done with balance or with splits. We know we have more work to do.

 

Hello @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" I would like to point out, that these changes are effecting the exact opposite of the stated aim in Necro. The changes are killing off build diversity and removing multiple lesser used builds from the game, including in wvw for example - power scourge and support scourge, because the changes haven't properly thought through how increasing the cooldown on f2-5 skills affects them and traits they use. This 'balance' does nothing meaningful to bring any core or reaper builds up, and ythe changes are pushing wvw play further into condi-spam scourge - unlike pvp you need gear sets to switch and any switch of class or gear takes time, people are much more 'sticky'. The changes should have instead looked at Dhuumfire for example, and also boon conversion rates, if they wanted to reach the stated objective of more build variety. This pass does the opposite.

 

Also as a side note a lot of wvw-er necro players are sick and tired of needing to make a new set of expensive gear every patch.

[Forsakens.9726]

That soothing bastion nerf tho rip rev 2018

[HeadCrowned.6834]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> > **Necro**

> > - Increasing the heal per pulse of Well of Blood by 75% seems very high.

> > - Im curious about the Signet of Undeath buff. I don't know how this will work out yet, but seems quite (a bit too) powerful.

>

> For Well of Blood, this is actually making up for the overall nerf Well of Blood got when they changed it from 10 seconds to 5 seconds duration. They forgot to improve the pulse values to an amount corresponding to the reduction in number, so the skill currently heals about 60% of what it used to on pulses. This increase is really just restoring the original total.

>

> Signet of Undeath probably still won't see use because of a 3 second cast time on a class with horrid stability access. Even so, here's a case where the reduction doesn't actually mean as much as you would think because when traited, the skill can get reduced down to a cooldown of less than a minute anyway (on live servers, Scourge can drop it down to 42 seconds without alacrity, Core can drop it down to about 30 if not focused).

 

Meh, I don't know. I'm not saying that its gonna be OP all of a sudden, but an AoE rezz on a 90 sec CD is at least interesting. The casting time is a problem, but for example Reaper has quite some stability still. You shouldn't evaluate this from the perspective of the current meta, but from the perspective of a meta that is unknown yet.

[Vagrant.7206]

It feels like nobody on the balance team has actually looked at any suggested changes for engineer. Color me disappointed that this is their attempt to "improve underperformance" because realistically, scrapper is a buggy, buggy mess, core engineer is in an awful state for PvP, and holo is the only thing propping up the class right now.

 

It's unlikely this will do **anything** to change the engineer meta other than just make it significantly weaker.

[Jojo.6590]

I have a few issues with how the balance patch is being "split". You're nerfing classes because in one aspect or another the class is over powered (OP)/ broken. This is fine! What is not fine is that the same classes that are getting nerfs because they're OP are also getting buffs to balance them out, the buffs affect BOTH wvw and Spvp while the nerfs affect just Spvp (mostly). This will hurt WvW as a class that is currently seen as OP will for the most part be unaffected by the incoming nerfs, but will be affected by the buffs. This makes the class even more OP/ broken then what we're currently experiencing! Please don't split balance this, WVW and Spvp are BOTH a PVP platform! All of the buffs AND nerfs should apply to BOTH PVP environments.

 

It feels like I'm preaching on deaf ears, but you-THE DEVS need to stop using the forums (and external forums) as the main source of info for what classes are OP/broken! You need to jump in, take the time to play the accused OP/broken classes and then from your experiences decided for your selves on if the class is truly OP/ broken. Trust us, the players, we DO NOT mind if this ends up taking more time if it means a good or maybe even legendary balance patch is to come from it. If you keep using the forums as your main source as to figure out what to nerf, nothing will change. As its who crys the LOUDEST that will be heard! Most of the times just because someone is louder does not mean they're right (the boy who cried wolf)! I truly hope the DEVs are listening, but I cant help to feel that you're not 3.

[Druch.8573]

As I said in the original post, I agree with the cd increase of Desert Shroud. However, I'm very disappointed to learn that in this "PART 2 SKILL SPLIT" you still haven't been able to provide a solution for all those traits that only trigger when entering shroud as scourge.

 

Some of these traits are already useless when playing scourge and with 10s cd increase they will become even worse. The most ridiculous thing is that quiet a few are grandmaster and as scourge I cannot pick them as it doesn't provide me any value, meaning that I'm more limited with the play style I want to choose for my scourge and it gives me fewer options.

 

For example:

 

- Weakening Shroud: I understand that most of the scourges in WvW that goes for curses are mostly mid distance range dps. Therefore I cannot see any utility to this trait since it is pure melee and is already very bad with a 20s cd. Maybe the effect of this trait should also be casted on the shadem, specially taking in cosideration that is going to be a 30s cs or if you prefere it, you could rework it and do something similar like you did with the trait "Path of corruption" and have a different effect when playing scourge.

 

- Spiteful Spirit: As above, I really think that this trait should be casted on the shade and on the character too or rework it, giving it a different effect when playing scourge.

 

- Foot in the Grave: This trait definitely needs some rework or some different effect when playing scourge. Since f5 is going to be 30s cd and this skill is mostly played ofensively, why do we want just one stack of stab or breakstun when pressing f5? This is a Grandmaster trait and it sounds more like a basic master trait. Maybe the scourge should be getting 2,3 stacks of stab every pulse while being in shroud when playign scourge, just saying. Please try to think something for this trait, allowing to have some interesting alternative to trait line.

 

Finally, I really think that all the other traits, whether they are adept or major which also get triggered when entering shroud need a rework or a different effect when playing scourge since the shroud cd is different from core necro and reaper compared to scourge. It's not the same to get an effect every 10s than every 30s. It's the fair thing to do.

 

Thank you.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"Forsakens.9726" said:

> That soothing bastion nerf tho rip rev 2018

 

Soothing bastion is a garbage trait that often kills you due to the condi meta. It's a super situational thing to take and Elders Force is better in most cases.

[Kenshu.3825]

This is a fucking joke to revs... you seriously have to be kidding me to think that the nerf to COR is ok for WvW. What a joke...

[LinhZeri.6412]

Just make Desert Shroud like the other shrouds necromancer has and a lot of the issues with it would be relatively solved by having it limited time use (and remove Sand Savant single large Sand Shade as this just allows people to have easy access to max shades just by clicking once... and with 3 charges on top of that which promotes spamming it). I really don't think it would be an issue to make it possible giving the sand shade skills in the skills bar instead when in Desert Shroud. Why change what isnt broken in the past 5 years this class has existed. Also, this allows you to address the issues with shroud durations ending to fast naturally for the lack of life force generation from weapon skills as well. (which i made a suggestion early to increase them all by double and add life force generation to each weapon skill

While we at it swap Desert Empowerment with Blood is Sand minor grandmaster trait and make Blood as Sand have 3% reduction in dmg per shade instead of 5% for each shade. (again removing the single lard Sand Shade to boot so it takes nearly 3 seconds to get that dmg reduction)

[DeadlySynz.3471]

I think as others have pointed out (at least in relation to Scourge), increasing the cool downs really does nothing for the class other create an annoyance while further reducing actual viable builds. It think the major problem with this is what Jojo pointed out about how you are listening to people screaming the loudest, but these people aren't necessarily right. In fact, they are completely dead wrong in their complaints. I appreciate you create these threads about changes and take feedback (because for years we weren't even getting that), but I think it's clear now it's a **very bad idea** to be taking player/forum feedback in regards to changes. Changes are something the devs need to figure out for themselves by all of them getting on each and every class and either joining PvP or WvW and silently testing it.

 

Case and point, in WvW; 99% of the battles are over in less than 15 seconds. At least at the 15s mark it's clear who has lost and those on the losing end start scattering. This alone makes the increased cool downs on the Scourge's F2-F5 skills a pointless change. Even the half second delay was a pointless change because those who are in the vicinity the shade is dropped on still get bombed, nothing changed. The problem lies when more than 1 Scourge shade bombs a group, this is when players start vaporizing. It happens so quick, you don't even have time to cast epidemic before a player is downed. This is where the complaints are coming from; not 1 Scourge but multiple Scourge.

 

Perhaps you're better off fusing the "Shade" and "Ghastly Breach" skill together and make it an elite similar to the warrior bubble, which IMO, makes more sense the effects of the warrior bubble or more suited to Scourge. Remove the warrior bubble all together and give them something else, because the combination of warrior bubble, ghastly breach, and shade bombing is complete overkill, it completely renders boons useless to the point they mine as well be removed from the game. Then make the Scourge's elite a combination of the shade and ghastly breach, have it pulse every half second while having it function similar to ghastly breach as it is now. Then possibly have additional traits elsewhere to add further conditions per pulse.

 

Then finally you will have room to make the Scourge an actual "support" spec. Now make shroud come with a set of skills useful for party support; barrier, healing, reflect, whatever makes sense.

[Ithilwen.1529]

**The Mental Anquish nerf is too harsh to core Mesmer.** We're already at a serious disadvantage. There must be a way to reduce elite damage without killing the core classes. Reduce the damage of ambush perhaps.

 

BTW yes I own both expansions. ( Though I refused to buy PoF on my alt account because of the severe nerfs to Chronomancer and the way they were implemented. ) I just prefer my core Mesmer.

 

**The elites were to be side grades and not superior or pay-to-win.. I hope that is still the policy.**

[SkyFurY.6057]

All the autotrigger traits should also be nerfed in wvw.

[OriOri.8724]

You guys ignored all of the feedback that mesmer players gave you about EM, and have done so since before PoF was released. I think that at this point everyone deserves a straight, honest, answer @"Gaile Gray.6029" as to why Anet refuses to address the actual problem with EM by removing the stunbreak. We already don't hear enough about your rationale behind all of the changes, but concerns over this trait have been ignored and left unanswered by any ANet employee since before PoF was released.

 

We deserve to know why you guys refuse to even acknowledge the feedback we have been giving on this trait for months now.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> **The Mental Anquish nerf is too harsh to core Mesmer.** We're already at a serious disadvantage. There must be a way to reduce elite damage without killing the core classes. Reduce the damage of ambush perhaps.

>

> BTW yes I own both expansions. ( Though I refused to buy PoF on my alt account because of the severe nerfs to Chronomancer and the way they were implemented. ) I just prefer my core Mesmer.

>

> **The elites were to be side grades and not superior or pay-to-win.. I hope that is still the policy.**

 

Core mesmer still has superiority complex and shatter storm. Mental anguish nerf is not going to kill its burst.

[Americium.7182]

Final thoughts from wvw standpoint about changes:

**Warrior** : Overall good changes

**Revenant** : The direction of changes is good but will see if he finds a way into meta without high CoR damage.

**Guardian** : Good changes. Signet of mercy could become meta in GvG and i don't know if it's good.

**Thief**: I don't know much about him but everything looks fair.

**Engi** : Some of the changes would be good for roaming balance without impacting his role in guild squads. (Holo leap dmg, might on Corona Burst). Detection Pulse change is really good.

**Ele** : Nothing reallty impactful for WvW but with Rev dmg nerf Eless might be better for power dps now.

**Mesmer** Illusion of Life will probably be too good for guild fights.

**Ranger**: Roamers will (rightfully) cry but healing nerfs are objectively bad for a gamemode. People who say that support druid will always be useless for large scale fights have no idea what they are talking about. There are dozens of other ways of nerfing roaming druid without touching support.

**Necro**: Nerfs are good but i don't think CD is the right way to do it. Especially not on support skills.

 

For the future: If you want to nerf Roaming/Zerg/GvG build then nerf specific traits/skills that they use and not the specialization overall.

[Bazooka.3590]

Anet, when you are redesigning the game balance please don't forget your original statement about tanks and healers:

[http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/guild-wars-2-has-no-healers-or-tanks](http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/guild-wars-2-has-no-healers-or-tanks "http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/guild-wars-2-has-no-healers-or-tanks")

which you have failed for many years.