Allarius.5670 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > 1 condi cleansed on dodge, while certainly not the strongest GM there is, is still a very solid choice for a GM trait. It could allow a mirage to forego taking a condi clear entirely , allowing a more offensive oriented skill bar. If they were to remove the stunbreak, and cleansing two conditions on dodge deemed too strong, then another option is to allow cleansing one condition on Mirage Cloak. It would sort of split the difference and improve the functionality of mirrors by extension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor.6392 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > Lol at this mesmer main trying to seem like a hero for getting them to "remove the stunbreak". > > > > **As long as you can dodge while stunned and knocked down, mirage will remain broken**. Maybe people don't know that you can still use mirage cloak while cc'd (even if not running EM), but you can, and it's just as bad as having EM because the mesmer is _not_ taking damage, nor is it getting punished. > > I have been outspokenly against EM since it was first leaked. I'm not "acting like a hero", I'm trying to get this kitten trait balanced. Kindly kitten off with this attitude, as its not conducive to balancing anything. Not to mention, in case you can't see it, I'm literally asking Anet to implement a significantly harsher nerf than what they are considering implementing. In no way am I trying to let mirage off the hook here, I'm actively trying to bring it in line, and then there are comments like yours that achieve nothing. But EM is not the issue. It's part of it - sure, but even without EM, Mirage remains overpowered for a lot of reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Firstly, agreed with most people here, Elusive Mind is a broken trait by design and definitely needs a change, and exhaustion probably isn't the way to do it. A 10-second internal cooldown is also a terrible suggestion. First of all it would be very annoying, unfun, and inconsistent to keep track of as a Mesmer. The last thing you want is to not get a stunbreak because you misscounted as 9,7 seconds instead of 10. ICD should mostly be kept to things that don't change your playstyle, such as on-hit condition applications. It'd be better to remove the Stunbreak altogether. Secondly, I suppose many will be surprised when they realize that Mirage is still broken with Infinite Horizon over Elusive Mind. The concept of never having to think about your dodge, being able to use it at any time you wish even when CCd or immobilized, is broken by design and limits counter-play massively. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that just the effect of not doing a physical "roll" animation when you dodge is huge because you don't get the visual feedback which means you have to either watch the UI or try to quickly spot the inconspicuous animation around the Mesmer. But this is fixable. The change that probably **does** needs to happen to Mirage sooner or later is to disable Dodge in CC and while immobilized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > Wait who said to to remove condi clear? Noone ? All I said 1 condi cleanse is weak and quotted your/my messages ... > @"Allarius.5670" said: > > If they were to remove the stunbreak, and cleansing two conditions on dodge deemed too strong, then another option is to allow cleansing one condition on Mirage Cloak. It would sort of split the difference and improve the functionality of mirrors by extension. Arent seeing mirage produce many of them... which is 1 from heal ... Utilities that spawn them arent good enough to ever consider taking them. Why 2 too strong ? We have 2 dodges , said DrD more than 2,ways to refill endurance, evades from weapon skills (spammable) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick.2987 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 The exhaustion on stunbreak only affects the bad mesmers anyway that dodge after the cc aready landed. Every decent mes will dodge before that happens. Exhaustion punishes the bad players which is why i like it still as many pointed out, it will not fix mirage entirely as sword 2, normal dodge + vigor, mirage cloak from mirrors, protection and distortion together offer way too much defense while having stealth, more than average mobility, portal (broken since existed in pvp) and decent damage output. An icd of 10s is a joke since people need to facetank 2 stuns in 10 seconds to be punished and still can dodge. So there will remain two problems after EM nerf: 1.) Still too much defense and mobility for what damage they can bring in and utility; 2.) bad players can still dodge when facetanking a stun with no need to waste a stunbreak. No offense to the mesmer players but as you can see other specs get nerfed quite hard too and not only one trait. On top of that s/d thief was the only real offender to be efficient against mirages. I think the changes will reward mesmers more than it nerfes them increasing the gap between mirage and other specs even more to some extend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Razor.6392" said: > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > Lol at this mesmer main trying to seem like a hero for getting them to "remove the stunbreak". > > > > > > **As long as you can dodge while stunned and knocked down, mirage will remain broken**. Maybe people don't know that you can still use mirage cloak while cc'd (even if not running EM), but you can, and it's just as bad as having EM because the mesmer is _not_ taking damage, nor is it getting punished. > > > > I have been outspokenly against EM since it was first leaked. I'm not "acting like a hero", I'm trying to get this kitten trait balanced. Kindly kitten off with this attitude, as its not conducive to balancing anything. Not to mention, in case you can't see it, I'm literally asking Anet to implement a significantly harsher nerf than what they are considering implementing. In no way am I trying to let mirage off the hook here, I'm actively trying to bring it in line, and then there are comments like yours that achieve nothing. > > But EM is not the issue. > > It's part of it - sure, but even without EM, Mirage remains overpowered for a lot of reasons. Care to elaborate on those reasons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > 1. It's 15% damage, not 50% > > 2. Sure, take away all the evadespam and teleports from mesmer, give them to engi, and we'll call it fair. :) > > 3. The problem with Elusive Mind is that it rewards mesmers for failing to do something they should've done earlier (like turning off Photon Forge). It's a "get-out-jail-free" card, but it lacks any punishment for using that card. With PBM, you can't avoid having to overheat (heat doesn't dissipate) -- you get punished, just not as severely as you would without it. I don't think exhaustion is the solution, because there's so much evadespam and other kitten built into the mesmer, but there's absolutely no downside to the trait other than opportunity cost. Nothing is given up for an incredibly powerful ability. Thus the comparison to PBM -- perhaps a little damage is in order to compensate for the get out of jail free card. > > 15% he gets above 50% heat, not overheat. Since you mentioned PBM it has an explosion,damage buff + heat therapy that heal him for 650 hp per second. > What evade spam ? You have problems? Mirage offer vigor on shatters(surprise engi gets vigor on toolbelt use... unique mechanic!) ,unique dodge and 1 teleport as utility (usable withing 1200 range in random place around target). You can have it while i would get that photon forge and wreck 5 people solo :D > Evade spam ? They haveperma vigor(same as vigor on shatters but on belt) AND elixir that refill TWO dodges , mirage doesnt have any kind of endurance regeneration . Alrdy forgotten that 5 dodges in a row? (could take permanent 50% edurance regen but thats another story) > Remove EM , make new USEFUL trait , i dont mind , go ahead. Also dont forget to remove Dune Cloak ,grandmaster trait that useless in all game modes .:) * Evadespam doesn't just mean dodge, wise guy. Engineer/holo has no evade frames or defensive utility built into any of its attacks. Mesmer can nuke really hard and then disappear at the slightest bit of trouble, engineers have to tough it out and pray they might be able to run away or kill the enemy fast enough. * PBM doesn't feature a damage buff. The buff from >50% heat is simply perpetuated during cooldown. * Here's the thing about analogies and metaphors: Any analogy or metaphor eventually breaks down under sufficient scrutiny. I was simply comparing a GM level trait that has significant bonuses built into it, but also a drawback -- with another GM trait that has significant bonuses but no drawback (beyond the obvious opportunity cost). If you're intentionally being obstinate to the idea of analogies/metaphors... well, that's not on me. > @"Quadox.7834" said: > In fact, I'd go so far as to say that just the effect of not doing a physical "roll" animation when you dodge is huge because you don't get the visual feedback which means you have to either watch the UI or try to quickly spot the inconspicuous animation around the Mesmer. But this is fixable. Honestly, that's one of my biggest problems with mirage and mesmer design in general. It has some of the most subtle "tells" of any class in the game, in a game where you're supposed to be able to figure out what your opponent is doing. People may complain about holo's damage all they like, but at least you can see it coming and there's no illusion as to what skill they're using. Mirage? It's really damn hard to tell what they're doing half the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > * Evadespam doesn't just mean dodge, wise guy. I see you are not less wise than me ! 2 dodges ,okay , frezny 2s , okay ... DESERT DISTORTION(doesnt exist in current meta build and need a setup of 3 clones with 50s cd) ? Everyone have access to adventurer runes(which isnt part of meta build for mirage)/ energy sigils. What spam you talking about ? p.s have you ever seen thief trolling zergs on wvw ? (easly done same in pvp) PBM doesn't feature a damage buff. The buff from >50% heat is simply perpetuated during cooldown. ->Gain Heat Therapy and Laser's Edge after overheating.© ? ? ? > Honestly, that's one of my biggest problems with mirage and mesmer design in general. It has some of the most subtle "tells" of any class in the game, in a game where you're supposed to be able to figure out what your opponent is doing. People may complain about holo's damage all they like, but at least you can see it coming and there's no illusion as to what skill they're using. Mirage? It's really kitten hard to tell what they're doing half the time. Make one and you will understand ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperadordf.2687 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > Lol at this mesmer main trying to seem like a hero for getting them to "remove the stunbreak". > > > > > > > > **As long as you can dodge while stunned and knocked down, mirage will remain broken**. Maybe people don't know that you can still use mirage cloak while cc'd (even if not running EM), but you can, and it's just as bad as having EM because the mesmer is _not_ taking damage, nor is it getting punished. > > > > > > I have been outspokenly against EM since it was first leaked. I'm not "acting like a hero", I'm trying to get this kitten trait balanced. Kindly kitten off with this attitude, as its not conducive to balancing anything. Not to mention, in case you can't see it, I'm literally asking Anet to implement a significantly harsher nerf than what they are considering implementing. In no way am I trying to let mirage off the hook here, I'm actively trying to bring it in line, and then there are comments like yours that achieve nothing. > > > > But EM is not the issue. > > > > It's part of it - sure, but even without EM, Mirage remains overpowered for a lot of reasons. > > Care to elaborate on those reasons? The Chaos/Illu/Mirage Boonspam build is OP. For sure. I’ve tried it a few times and I could easily maintain; Perma: 25 Might Vigor Regen Fury And %70-80ish uptime on Protection, Stability and Aegis in an ongoing fight. It is ridiculously OP. Especially when you are running some kind of Concentration, it becomes god-mode. With or without EM, this build is just.. annoying to play against. #Topic: EM is OP. Who thought giving Mesmers constant stunbreak on dodge with enchanced vigor application would be a good idea¿ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > > Lol at this mesmer main trying to seem like a hero for getting them to "remove the stunbreak". > > > > > > > > > > **As long as you can dodge while stunned and knocked down, mirage will remain broken**. Maybe people don't know that you can still use mirage cloak while cc'd (even if not running EM), but you can, and it's just as bad as having EM because the mesmer is _not_ taking damage, nor is it getting punished. > > > > > > > > I have been outspokenly against EM since it was first leaked. I'm not "acting like a hero", I'm trying to get this kitten trait balanced. Kindly kitten off with this attitude, as its not conducive to balancing anything. Not to mention, in case you can't see it, I'm literally asking Anet to implement a significantly harsher nerf than what they are considering implementing. In no way am I trying to let mirage off the hook here, I'm actively trying to bring it in line, and then there are comments like yours that achieve nothing. > > > > > > But EM is not the issue. > > > > > > It's part of it - sure, but even without EM, Mirage remains overpowered for a lot of reasons. > > > > Care to elaborate on those reasons? > > The Chaos/Illu/Mirage Boonspam build is OP. For sure. I’ve tried it a few times and I could easily maintain; > Perma: > 25 Might > Vigor > Regen > Fury > And %70-80ish uptime on Protection, Stability and Aegis in an ongoing fight. It is ridiculously OP. Especially when you are running some kind of Concentration, it becomes god-mode. > > With or without EM, this build is just.. annoying to play against. > > #Topic: EM is OP. Who thought giving Mesmers constant stunbreak on dodge with enchanced vigor application would be a good idea¿ Aegis ? 80% ? You are on drugs, return later when the effect wears off. OK, from entire list i see only 2 valid things : EM (we agree its need nerf),vigor. Nothing else related to mirage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperadordf.2687 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > > > Lol at this mesmer main trying to seem like a hero for getting them to "remove the stunbreak". > > > > > > > > > > > > **As long as you can dodge while stunned and knocked down, mirage will remain broken**. Maybe people don't know that you can still use mirage cloak while cc'd (even if not running EM), but you can, and it's just as bad as having EM because the mesmer is _not_ taking damage, nor is it getting punished. > > > > > > > > > > I have been outspokenly against EM since it was first leaked. I'm not "acting like a hero", I'm trying to get this kitten trait balanced. Kindly kitten off with this attitude, as its not conducive to balancing anything. Not to mention, in case you can't see it, I'm literally asking Anet to implement a significantly harsher nerf than what they are considering implementing. In no way am I trying to let mirage off the hook here, I'm actively trying to bring it in line, and then there are comments like yours that achieve nothing. > > > > > > > > But EM is not the issue. > > > > > > > > It's part of it - sure, but even without EM, Mirage remains overpowered for a lot of reasons. > > > > > > Care to elaborate on those reasons? > > > > The Chaos/Illu/Mirage Boonspam build is OP. For sure. I’ve tried it a few times and I could easily maintain; > > Perma: > > 25 Might > > Vigor > > Regen > > Fury > > And %70-80ish uptime on Protection, Stability and Aegis in an ongoing fight. It is ridiculously OP. Especially when you are running some kind of Concentration, it becomes god-mode. > > > > With or without EM, this build is just.. annoying to play against. > > > > #Topic: EM is OP. Who thought giving Mesmers constant stunbreak on dodge with enchanced vigor application would be a good idea¿ > > Aegis ? 80% ? You are on drugs, return later when the effect wears off. > OK, from entire list i see only 2 valid things : EM (we agree its need nerf),vigor. Nothing else related to mirage The build includes Descent into Madness, Persistence of Memory and uses Staff. So yes if you cast a Phantasm when you have Aegis on you (which you mostly do because of double Chaos Storm), you can easily have high uptime on Aegis. The ones which are related to Mirage are Vigor, Regen and Protection (though even if the metabattle build uses Prot-on-Cloak trait, I use Desert Distortion still so no %100 uptime). Perma 25 Might, Vigor and Fury are easily cappable now with Bountiful Disillusionment and Persistence of Memory. Though it’s kinda off-topic at the moment. Mirage makes this build much more powerful than both the Core and Chrono variant of it due to it’s nature. Anyway, this was the last off-topic post I am going to post in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > > > > Lol at this mesmer main trying to seem like a hero for getting them to "remove the stunbreak". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **As long as you can dodge while stunned and knocked down, mirage will remain broken**. Maybe people don't know that you can still use mirage cloak while cc'd (even if not running EM), but you can, and it's just as bad as having EM because the mesmer is _not_ taking damage, nor is it getting punished. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been outspokenly against EM since it was first leaked. I'm not "acting like a hero", I'm trying to get this kitten trait balanced. Kindly kitten off with this attitude, as its not conducive to balancing anything. Not to mention, in case you can't see it, I'm literally asking Anet to implement a significantly harsher nerf than what they are considering implementing. In no way am I trying to let mirage off the hook here, I'm actively trying to bring it in line, and then there are comments like yours that achieve nothing. > > > > > > > > > > But EM is not the issue. > > > > > > > > > > It's part of it - sure, but even without EM, Mirage remains overpowered for a lot of reasons. > > > > > > > > Care to elaborate on those reasons? > > > > > > The Chaos/Illu/Mirage Boonspam build is OP. For sure. I’ve tried it a few times and I could easily maintain; > > > Perma: > > > 25 Might > > > Vigor > > > Regen > > > Fury > > > And %70-80ish uptime on Protection, Stability and Aegis in an ongoing fight. It is ridiculously OP. Especially when you are running some kind of Concentration, it becomes god-mode. > > > > > > With or without EM, this build is just.. annoying to play against. > > > > > > #Topic: EM is OP. Who thought giving Mesmers constant stunbreak on dodge with enchanced vigor application would be a good idea¿ > > > > Aegis ? 80% ? You are on drugs, return later when the effect wears off. > > OK, from entire list i see only 2 valid things : EM (we agree its need nerf),vigor. Nothing else related to mirage > > The build includes Descent into Madness, Persistence of Memory and uses Staff. So yes if you cast a Phantasm when you have Aegis on you (which you mostly do because of double Chaos Storm), you can easily have high uptime on Aegis. > > The ones which are related to Mirage are Vigor, Regen and Protection (though even if the metabattle build uses Prot-on-Cloak trait, I use Desert Distortion still so no %100 uptime). > > Perma 25 Might, Vigor and Fury are easily cappable now with Bountiful Disillusionment and Persistence of Memory. Though it’s kinda off-topic at the moment. > > Mirage makes this build much more powerful than both the Core and Chrono variant of it due to it’s nature. > > Anyway, this was the last off-topic post I am going to post in this thread. You get random procs ineed ,not even close to be 80% otherwise forum would melt with complaints to nerf it. Perma 25 might belong to new illusion traitline and phantasms that summoned in pairs + persistance of memory which been literally dead trait before rework. I'm not playing that trait even...So my might is around 15 sometimes 20. Remove double phantasms from existance ,less boons mesmer would get, reduce amount of might which he get after that. You would be happier. Nerfs some phantasms damage. Fury... mmmmm ,from where ? just f3 ? Its not enough to have it permanently tbh. And you are wrong ,Chrono takes everything to a new level (boons boons boons and super alacrity) with abit of desire but i believe losing to a mirage in 1x1 i think. But only real thing about 'Mirage' is that you can dodge any time ,without it Mirage would be many times worse than any other mesmer trait line which everyone here demand with a passion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > * Evadespam doesn't just mean dodge, wise guy. > > I see you are not less wise than me ! 2 dodges ,okay , frezny 2s , okay ... DESERT DISTORTION(doesnt exist in current meta build and need a setup of 3 clones with 50s cd) ? > Everyone have access to adventurer runes(which isnt part of meta build for mirage)/ energy sigils. > What spam you talking about ? * Blurred Frenzy * Distortion * Illusionary Riposte * Phase Retreat * Blink * Jaunt All defensive skills that are a normal part of most mirage's bars. Some mesmers also use portal as well for defensive purposes, but I'm excluding that one because the setup is obvious. > @"Odik.4587" said: > p.s have you ever seen thief trolling zergs on wvw ? (easly done same in pvp) > PBM doesn't feature a damage buff. The buff from >50% heat is simply perpetuated during cooldown. ->Gain Heat Therapy and Laser's Edge after overheating.© ? ? ? Your confusion means you haven't actually used holo, I see. Laser's Edge is a buff from >50% heat, and PBM simply carries it over into the cooldown, rather than letting it disappear right when you exit PF. The 15% damage buff carried over onto a rifle isn't all that significant in PvP (no, really, rifle isn't that good), but in PvE that damage buff is useful for bomb kit. That's why you never see PBM getting used in PvP, because it's unreliable and the risks outweigh the rewards. > @"Odik.4587" said: > > Honestly, that's one of my biggest problems with mirage and mesmer design in general. It has some of the most subtle "tells" of any class in the game, in a game where you're supposed to be able to figure out what your opponent is doing. People may complain about holo's damage all they like, but at least you can see it coming and there's no illusion as to what skill they're using. Mirage? It's really kitten hard to tell what they're doing half the time. > Make one and you will understand ? You don't seem to understand. Mesmer is the only class that has this weird impossible-to-read subtlety. I can reasonably tell what other classes are doing without having to play them. They all have very showy tells or big exaggerated movements. Elementalist, warrior, guardian, other engineer's, necros (for the most part), even ranger and thief. Revenant is a little wonky, hard to tell sometimes depending on the weapon set. But mesmer? It's the only class I legitimately cannot read what they're doing the majority of the time, and very few of their skill animations correlate in a logical way to their actions. It's extremely hard to tell when they're winding up for a big hit or they're just spamming you with autoattacks (sometimes one and the same). I absolutely loathe playing mesmer personally (I find it very hard to enjoy), but even classes I haven't played competitively (like elementalist), I can still figure out what they're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > > Lol at this mesmer main trying to seem like a hero for getting them to "remove the stunbreak". > > > > > > > > > > **As long as you can dodge while stunned and knocked down, mirage will remain broken**. Maybe people don't know that you can still use mirage cloak while cc'd (even if not running EM), but you can, and it's just as bad as having EM because the mesmer is _not_ taking damage, nor is it getting punished. > > > > > > > > I have been outspokenly against EM since it was first leaked. I'm not "acting like a hero", I'm trying to get this kitten trait balanced. Kindly kitten off with this attitude, as its not conducive to balancing anything. Not to mention, in case you can't see it, I'm literally asking Anet to implement a significantly harsher nerf than what they are considering implementing. In no way am I trying to let mirage off the hook here, I'm actively trying to bring it in line, and then there are comments like yours that achieve nothing. > > > > > > But EM is not the issue. > > > > > > It's part of it - sure, but even without EM, Mirage remains overpowered for a lot of reasons. > > > > Care to elaborate on those reasons? > > The Chaos/Illu/Mirage Boonspam build is OP. For sure. I’ve tried it a few times and I could easily maintain; > Perma: > 25 Might > Vigor > Regen > Fury > And %70-80ish uptime on Protection, Stability and Aegis in an ongoing fight. It is ridiculously OP. Especially when you are running some kind of Concentration, it becomes god-mode. > > With or without EM, this build is just.. annoying to play against. > > #Topic: EM is OP. Who thought giving Mesmers constant stunbreak on dodge with enchanced vigor application would be a good idea¿ Well you’re not the person I asked but care to elaborate what aspect makes this too strong? You say mirage makes this build stronger than core and chrono versions but what specifically is it that’s causing the problem for you because Chrono can get loads of alacrity on top of all this and double down on the phantasms too. Is it the mirage cloak, just elusive mind or is there a skill/trait interaction you specifically feel is too strong. You may think I’m being a kitten asking all these details but this is how devs make good balance patches and positive changes to the game instead of SBooning everything into oblivion. Be specific about what you feel is too strong, is it the might stacking, quickness, decent to madness or something else. Then look at what other classes can do currently and what would be a weakness of this build would be. Btw the boons you listed, ever seen a holo play? Almost all those boons as well, just pointing it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperadordf.2687 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > > > Lol at this mesmer main trying to seem like a hero for getting them to "remove the stunbreak". > > > > > > > > > > > > **As long as you can dodge while stunned and knocked down, mirage will remain broken**. Maybe people don't know that you can still use mirage cloak while cc'd (even if not running EM), but you can, and it's just as bad as having EM because the mesmer is _not_ taking damage, nor is it getting punished. > > > > > > > > > > I have been outspokenly against EM since it was first leaked. I'm not "acting like a hero", I'm trying to get this kitten trait balanced. Kindly kitten off with this attitude, as its not conducive to balancing anything. Not to mention, in case you can't see it, I'm literally asking Anet to implement a significantly harsher nerf than what they are considering implementing. In no way am I trying to let mirage off the hook here, I'm actively trying to bring it in line, and then there are comments like yours that achieve nothing. > > > > > > > > But EM is not the issue. > > > > > > > > It's part of it - sure, but even without EM, Mirage remains overpowered for a lot of reasons. > > > > > > Care to elaborate on those reasons? > > > > The Chaos/Illu/Mirage Boonspam build is OP. For sure. I’ve tried it a few times and I could easily maintain; > > Perma: > > 25 Might > > Vigor > > Regen > > Fury > > And %70-80ish uptime on Protection, Stability and Aegis in an ongoing fight. It is ridiculously OP. Especially when you are running some kind of Concentration, it becomes god-mode. > > > > With or without EM, this build is just.. annoying to play against. > > > > #Topic: EM is OP. Who thought giving Mesmers constant stunbreak on dodge with enchanced vigor application would be a good idea¿ > > Well you’re not the person I asked but care to elaborate what aspect makes this too strong? > > You say mirage makes this build stronger than core and chrono versions but what specifically is it that’s causing the problem for you because Chrono can get loads of alacrity on top of all this and double down on the phantasms too. Is it the mirage cloak, just elusive mind or is there a skill/trait interaction you specifically feel is too strong. > > You may think I’m being a kitten asking all these details but this is how devs make good balance patches and positive changes to the game instead of SBooning everything into oblivion. Be specific about what you feel is too strong, is it the might stacking, quickness, decent to madness or something else. Then look at what other classes can do currently and what would be a weakness of this build would be. > > Btw the boons you listed, ever seen a holo play? Almost all those boons as well, just pointing it out. My fault for not specifying it. Sorry. -The synergy between Bountiful Disillusionment and Persistence of Memory is too strong. -Mirage has Desert Distortion which is like a 6-7 seconds of evasion + invul combined. -Persistence of Memory is really strong considering the Phantasm spam we have. -Renewing Oasis really helps against condition builds - except Scourges. -Phantasmal Haste, you know. Provides a ton of quickness. -Being able to keep up so much boons at the same time and being able to reset them (Persistence of Memory) when we want is a bit, too much. Well it has to be good at something, sure, but having one of the best offensives (Perma 25 Might and a lot of CC + damage) , defensives (evades, Staff and Sword blocks, Frenzy and distortion) and utility (Portal) is over the line. I’d say nerf PoM to transfer 3 boons maximum but the ones with the lowest remaining times. Example; I have 4 boons. Might for 16 seconds - Protection for 8 seconds - Regen for 11 seconds - Resistance for 3 seconds. Protection + Regen + Resistance transfers, Might stays. Note that the numbers can change. It can be 2 boons and 1 condition transferring or something like that. BI is already getting nerfed as far as I know. - The real issue is really PoM and the Phantasm Spam really. The old Burst Mesmer had no means of defense, so we could call it balanced. But with Mirage, it got both defensives with Cloak and easy clone generation (Self - Deception. **In the end, it all comes to how OP Elusive Mind is when used with correct traits.** It’s stunbreak should be removed and replaced with another condi clear or something defensive. Like “Stuns on you last %25 shorter after you dodge. This effect lasts 7 1/2 seconds.” Just no Stunbreak. Edit : Holosmith by no means has access to perma 25 Might. Even with full-elixirs and HGH, there is no way. And there is little uptime on Regen and Fury because they have to stay in the 360 Radius (600 if over 50 Heat) Arena. It’s just the people apply a lot of condis so Holo converts them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor.6392 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > Lol at this mesmer main trying to seem like a hero for getting them to "remove the stunbreak". > > > > > > > > **As long as you can dodge while stunned and knocked down, mirage will remain broken**. Maybe people don't know that you can still use mirage cloak while cc'd (even if not running EM), but you can, and it's just as bad as having EM because the mesmer is _not_ taking damage, nor is it getting punished. > > > > > > I have been outspokenly against EM since it was first leaked. I'm not "acting like a hero", I'm trying to get this kitten trait balanced. Kindly kitten off with this attitude, as its not conducive to balancing anything. Not to mention, in case you can't see it, I'm literally asking Anet to implement a significantly harsher nerf than what they are considering implementing. In no way am I trying to let mirage off the hook here, I'm actively trying to bring it in line, and then there are comments like yours that achieve nothing. > > > > But EM is not the issue. > > > > It's part of it - sure, but even without EM, Mirage remains overpowered for a lot of reasons. > > Care to elaborate on those reasons? Mirage cloak is another way of saying 'no room for counterplay'. Say goodbye to interrupting key casts, to interrupting stomps, to damaging a mesmer that is STUNNED with NO STUN BREAKS. On top of the multitude of ways to generate clones, over the top phantasm damage and cc / mobility, invulns and stealth, you get a package full of unfun and suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted March 21, 2018 Author Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > * Evadespam doesn't just mean dodge, wise guy. > > > > I see you are not less wise than me ! 2 dodges ,okay , frezny 2s , okay ... DESERT DISTORTION(doesnt exist in current meta build and need a setup of 3 clones with 50s cd) ? > > Everyone have access to adventurer runes(which isnt part of meta build for mirage)/ energy sigils. > > What spam you talking about ? > > * Blurred Frenzy > * Distortion > * Illusionary Riposte > * Phase Retreat > * Blink > * Jaunt > > All defensive skills that are a normal part of most mirage's bars. Some mesmers also use portal as well for defensive purposes, but I'm excluding that one because the setup is obvious. > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > p.s have you ever seen thief trolling zergs on wvw ? (easly done same in pvp) > > PBM doesn't feature a damage buff. The buff from >50% heat is simply perpetuated during cooldown. ->Gain Heat Therapy and Laser's Edge after overheating.© ? ? ? > > Your confusion means you haven't actually used holo, I see. Laser's Edge is a buff from >50% heat, and PBM simply carries it over into the cooldown, rather than letting it disappear right when you exit PF. The 15% damage buff carried over onto a rifle isn't all that significant in PvP (no, really, rifle isn't that good), but in PvE that damage buff is useful for bomb kit. That's why you never see PBM getting used in PvP, because it's unreliable and the risks outweigh the rewards. > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > Honestly, that's one of my biggest problems with mirage and mesmer design in general. It has some of the most subtle "tells" of any class in the game, in a game where you're supposed to be able to figure out what your opponent is doing. People may complain about holo's damage all they like, but at least you can see it coming and there's no illusion as to what skill they're using. Mirage? It's really kitten hard to tell what they're doing half the time. > > Make one and you will understand ? > > You don't seem to understand. Mesmer is the only class that has this weird impossible-to-read subtlety. > > I can reasonably tell what other classes are doing without having to play them. They all have very showy tells or big exaggerated movements. Elementalist, warrior, guardian, other engineer's, necros (for the most part), even ranger and thief. Revenant is a little wonky, hard to tell sometimes depending on the weapon set. > > But mesmer? It's the only class I legitimately cannot read what they're doing the majority of the time, and very few of their skill animations correlate in a logical way to their actions. It's extremely hard to tell when they're winding up for a big hit or they're just spamming you with autoattacks (sometimes one and the same). I absolutely loathe playing mesmer personally (I find it very hard to enjoy), but even classes I haven't played competitively (like elementalist), I can still figure out what they're doing. o.0 mesmer auto attacks and big hits are one and the same? We are not playing the same game. Mesmer's do have tells that you can learn to read. Right now its especially hard, for multiple reasons (lots of illusions spam, too much in my opinion, which clutters up the screen, on top of the entire class mechanic being redesigned not too long ago), but that doesn't mean that you cannot do it. Also, tells or not, EM needs to have its stunbreak removed. If needs be, it can be compensated in some way, but the stunbreak must go. Exhaustion does not fix the trait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > * Evadespam doesn't just mean dodge, wise guy. > > > > > > I see you are not less wise than me ! 2 dodges ,okay , frezny 2s , okay ... DESERT DISTORTION(doesnt exist in current meta build and need a setup of 3 clones with 50s cd) ? > > > Everyone have access to adventurer runes(which isnt part of meta build for mirage)/ energy sigils. > > > What spam you talking about ? > > > > * Blurred Frenzy > > * Distortion > > * Illusionary Riposte > > * Phase Retreat > > * Blink > > * Jaunt > > > > All defensive skills that are a normal part of most mirage's bars. Some mesmers also use portal as well for defensive purposes, but I'm excluding that one because the setup is obvious. > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > p.s have you ever seen thief trolling zergs on wvw ? (easly done same in pvp) > > > PBM doesn't feature a damage buff. The buff from >50% heat is simply perpetuated during cooldown. ->Gain Heat Therapy and Laser's Edge after overheating.© ? ? ? > > > > Your confusion means you haven't actually used holo, I see. Laser's Edge is a buff from >50% heat, and PBM simply carries it over into the cooldown, rather than letting it disappear right when you exit PF. The 15% damage buff carried over onto a rifle isn't all that significant in PvP (no, really, rifle isn't that good), but in PvE that damage buff is useful for bomb kit. That's why you never see PBM getting used in PvP, because it's unreliable and the risks outweigh the rewards. > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > Honestly, that's one of my biggest problems with mirage and mesmer design in general. It has some of the most subtle "tells" of any class in the game, in a game where you're supposed to be able to figure out what your opponent is doing. People may complain about holo's damage all they like, but at least you can see it coming and there's no illusion as to what skill they're using. Mirage? It's really kitten hard to tell what they're doing half the time. > > > Make one and you will understand ? > > > > You don't seem to understand. Mesmer is the only class that has this weird impossible-to-read subtlety. > > > > I can reasonably tell what other classes are doing without having to play them. They all have very showy tells or big exaggerated movements. Elementalist, warrior, guardian, other engineer's, necros (for the most part), even ranger and thief. Revenant is a little wonky, hard to tell sometimes depending on the weapon set. > > > > But mesmer? It's the only class I legitimately cannot read what they're doing the majority of the time, and very few of their skill animations correlate in a logical way to their actions. It's extremely hard to tell when they're winding up for a big hit or they're just spamming you with autoattacks (sometimes one and the same). I absolutely loathe playing mesmer personally (I find it very hard to enjoy), but even classes I haven't played competitively (like elementalist), I can still figure out what they're doing. > > o.0 mesmer auto attacks and big hits are one and the same? Not necessarily big hits, but there was a condi mesmer build using staff and a ton of clones that simply auto-attacked that could end up doing some nasty condi damage. Not sure if it's still viable. I think it was [this one](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Disenchanter_Mirage "this one"). > We are not playing the same game. Mesmer's do have tells that you can learn to read. Right now its especially hard, for multiple reasons (lots of illusions spam, too much in my opinion, which clutters up the screen, on top of the entire class mechanic being redesigned not too long ago), but that doesn't mean that you cannot do it. I know it is possible -- there are certain one's I've picked up on, particularly the greatsword, but other weapons are much harder. > @"OriOri.8724" said: > Also, tells or not, EM needs to have its stunbreak removed. If needs be, it can be compensated in some way, but the stunbreak must go. Exhaustion does not fix the trait Fine by me. The evade provided by mirage cloak is already insanely powerful as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Razor.6392" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > > Lol at this mesmer main trying to seem like a hero for getting them to "remove the stunbreak". > > > > > > > > > > **As long as you can dodge while stunned and knocked down, mirage will remain broken**. Maybe people don't know that you can still use mirage cloak while cc'd (even if not running EM), but you can, and it's just as bad as having EM because the mesmer is _not_ taking damage, nor is it getting punished. > > > > > > > > I have been outspokenly against EM since it was first leaked. I'm not "acting like a hero", I'm trying to get this kitten trait balanced. Kindly kitten off with this attitude, as its not conducive to balancing anything. Not to mention, in case you can't see it, I'm literally asking Anet to implement a significantly harsher nerf than what they are considering implementing. In no way am I trying to let mirage off the hook here, I'm actively trying to bring it in line, and then there are comments like yours that achieve nothing. > > > > > > But EM is not the issue. > > > > > > It's part of it - sure, but even without EM, Mirage remains overpowered for a lot of reasons. > > > > Care to elaborate on those reasons? > > Mirage cloak is another way of saying 'no room for counterplay'. Say goodbye to interrupting key casts, to interrupting stomps, to damaging a mesmer that is STUNNED with NO STUN BREAKS. > > On top of the multitude of ways to generate clones, over the top phantasm damage and cc / mobility, invulns and stealth, you get a package full of unfun and suck. So basically you seem to think that core Mesmer is amazing and mirage cloak took it to the next level of overpowered? I don’t mind if you take away mirage and give it SB, scourge, FB or Holo lines. Or do you want to specifically name skills and traits you think are over the top rather than whittling off the same tired list of things everyone complains about without actually being specific or elaborating on the reasons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velimere.7685 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"Velimere.7685" said: > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > I, and others, want an honest answer on EM Anet. We warned you about how ridiculously broken it was from the minute it was leaked, before the first beta weekend even. Despite months of warnings and discussions about EM, and mirage in general, you have continued to ignore all of these conversations. > > > > > > Now you have finally decided to nerf it, and your solution was exhaustion. Anet, its already been discussed, nearly to death, as to why exhaustion both doesn't fit on mesmer in the first place, but, more importantly, wouldn't actually do anything to stop how ridiculously overpowered EM is, and you know it. In response to all of that, you stayed silent about it and simply lowered the duration of exhaustion applied by EM to 3 seconds instead of 4 when breaking a stun. Despite all of our discussions about how exhaustion doesn't even fix the problem with EM, you doubled down anyway and insisted on adding it to the trait, pretending like that will fix it. > > > > > > Why have you refused to acknowledge any of the discussion about EM? I get that you can't respond to all discussions concerning balance, but EM was one of the most broken things ever introduced to the game. And you ignored the discussion on it. > > > > > > Why do you refuse to fix the actual problem with EM by simply removing the stunbreak from it? Why are you so insistent on tacking on exhaustion instead of simply removing the mechanic that is overperforming? > > > > All they have to do is give it a 10-second recharge so it can only be invoked once every 10 seconds like [Empty Vessel](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empty_Vessel "Empty Vessel"). > > Adding another internal timer isn't fun to play with as a mesmer, but more importantly, mirage as a class already is extremely resistant to stuns, with a variety of stunbreaks, not to mention dodging through stuns even without EM. Even with a 10sec ICD, mirage doesn't need yet another stunbreak, and it would still be too powerful in conjunction with the rest of the line I could be wrong, but I believe that they clarified that they're not looking do a complete trait rework with their skill split; all I did was make a balanced suggestion with a comparative justification within the bounds of their directive. A recharge is better than exhaustion which Mirage can't play around whereas Daredevil can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 > @"Velimere.7685" said: > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > @"Velimere.7685" said: > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > I, and others, want an honest answer on EM Anet. We warned you about how ridiculously broken it was from the minute it was leaked, before the first beta weekend even. Despite months of warnings and discussions about EM, and mirage in general, you have continued to ignore all of these conversations. > > > > > > > > Now you have finally decided to nerf it, and your solution was exhaustion. Anet, its already been discussed, nearly to death, as to why exhaustion both doesn't fit on mesmer in the first place, but, more importantly, wouldn't actually do anything to stop how ridiculously overpowered EM is, and you know it. In response to all of that, you stayed silent about it and simply lowered the duration of exhaustion applied by EM to 3 seconds instead of 4 when breaking a stun. Despite all of our discussions about how exhaustion doesn't even fix the problem with EM, you doubled down anyway and insisted on adding it to the trait, pretending like that will fix it. > > > > > > > > Why have you refused to acknowledge any of the discussion about EM? I get that you can't respond to all discussions concerning balance, but EM was one of the most broken things ever introduced to the game. And you ignored the discussion on it. > > > > > > > > Why do you refuse to fix the actual problem with EM by simply removing the stunbreak from it? Why are you so insistent on tacking on exhaustion instead of simply removing the mechanic that is overperforming? > > > > > > All they have to do is give it a 10-second recharge so it can only be invoked once every 10 seconds like [Empty Vessel](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empty_Vessel "Empty Vessel"). > > > > Adding another internal timer isn't fun to play with as a mesmer, but more importantly, mirage as a class already is extremely resistant to stuns, with a variety of stunbreaks, not to mention dodging through stuns even without EM. Even with a 10sec ICD, mirage doesn't need yet another stunbreak, and it would still be too powerful in conjunction with the rest of the line > I could be wrong, but I believe that they clarified that they're not looking do a complete trait rework with their skill split; all I did was make a balanced suggestion with a comparative justification within the bounds of their directive. A recharge is better than exhaustion which Mirage can't play around whereas Daredevil can. At this point EM should be considered an emergency hotfix, and be included in the first balance patch it can, assuming it were to be fixed correctly. Still I see where you are coming from, but I still disagree with the ICD. I'm afraid that as soon as it is nerfed, ANet will forever more ignore it, and that means ti will never be truly fixed. Even an ICD wouldn't fix the problem, as mirage is still very stun resistant even without running EM, so adding additional stunbreaks on top of that, even gated behind an ICD, is still too good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi.6027 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 I'm a simple man. I'd just like it when slotting into a GM that feels good and is rewarding to use... Ya know, as opposed to something that is a direct hindrance to play. Or at least have the hindrance be proportional to the perk with the rest of the classes kit in mind. "Elusive Mind" Name alone gives a lot to work with while just removing the endurance and adding another effect: -Make Jaunt be the a stun break. Then it's something tied to the elite that kind of manages itself. (and a fair trade off to securing kills) Or any of the polethora of "On Successful doge" effects: -create a mirror nearby. -Reward Endurance. -Restore 1 charge on Jaunt. -Stealth. -Target Drop. -Reduce cooldown on heal. (Elusive in the way you're hard er to kill confirm) Any of these with a internal cooldown if needed. I'm pretty sure more clever people could come with with better options this is just off the top of my head. Btw anyone running chaos is still going to be hard to lock down even after this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 mesmer is fine. revenant, especially renegade needs the nerf hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneira.7691 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > mesmer is fine. revenant, especially renegade needs the nerf hammer. 'Hey Beavis, ya think we been stoopid 'cause we been playin' messymers all this time?' 'Ya, ya! Lets go play revenants right now an' melt faces!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BikeIsGone.8675 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 > @"Daishi.6027" said: > I'm a simple man. I'd just like it when slotting into a GM that feels good and is rewarding to use... > > Ya know, as opposed to something that is a direct hindrance to play. Or at least have the hindrance be proportional to the perk with the rest of the classes kit in mind. > > "Elusive Mind" Name alone gives a lot to work with while just removing the endurance and adding another effect: > -Make Jaunt be the a stun break. Then it's something tied to the elite that kind of manages itself. (and a fair trade off to securing kills) > Or any of the polethora of "On Successful doge" effects: > -create a mirror nearby. > -Reward Endurance. > -Restore 1 charge on Jaunt. > -Stealth. > -Target Drop. > -Reduce cooldown on heal. (Elusive in the way you're hard er to kill confirm) > Any of these with a internal cooldown if needed. > > I'm pretty sure more clever people could come with with better options this is just off the top of my head. > > Btw anyone running chaos is still going to be hard to lock down even after this. Exactly. They could make a bunch of stuff just by removing the the stunbreak component (the condi cleanse is fine). Anet is changing trait names all the time as well, so that's the least of the problems. Something like "every time you remove a condition you heal yourself" or "Using an ambush skill now gives you X". Exhaustion is just conceptually bad, especially considering how mirage cloak is supposed to give you offensive tools as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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