bravan.3876 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > I'm going to post this in here as well because I feel quite strongly that EM has other options right now rather than the knee-jerk "remove stunbreak" that is being pushed as the "only" solution. > > One thing I would like to recap on regarding having stunbreak on dodge, because on this note I do disagree with some fellow mesmers as to it being an issue - in my opinion as a feature this is perfectly fine. Edit - for the record yes I was one of those during pof beta that shared the sentiment that this trait would never make it into live release due to being ridiculously powerful - however over the last 5 months my opinion has changed. As a trait it allows more options for building and choosing other utility skills rather than being forced into the usual Blink/SoM (RIP Decoy), encouraging experimenting with utilities that aren't stunbreaks (in reality we only have Blink, SoM, Decoy, Sand through Glass (which is bad - nobody will waste a slot for that) and Mantra (only useful in wvw group comps)). > > It is an active stunbreak just like any other skill requiring one button press. Just as a thought exercise, what if they had put a stunbreak on heal, on a shatter, on a weapon skill or on jaunt... there would be no issue because all those are seen as "skills/abilities". > > With the nature of Mirage's dodge it is worth viewing it from the perspective of being just another "skill/ability". ie it is worth considering Mirage as having NO dodge, but instead a "skill" with pseudo ammunition mechanic that provides 1s evade frame among other things. And this skill can be traited to to many things. > > The issue is not about having access to stunbreak on the dodge keybind - rather it is about the **frequency** of access to stunbreak due to having it available on **every** dodge, given the fast endurance refill rates. > > If this frequency was reduced such that stunbreak access from the dodge keybind would be limited to at most every "x" number of seconds then I believe this would be balanced. > > But that would require decoupling the stunbreak cooldown from the dodge "cooldown" - so how to show this on the UI? Use the same white line moving around the skill as the ammunition mechanic uses to show the cooldown on a charge. This white line would move around the endurance bar exactly the same as the ammunition mechanic cooldown UI indicator, allowing the cooldown of stunbreak to be set at whatever is suitable, as well as enabling the mesmer player to know when it is available/off cooldown. They could even change the endurance bar colour when it is on cooldown (ie make it darker or something) and make it flash as it comes off cooldown, or some other effect in addition to the moving line. > > Bottom line is I don't mind which route you guys take, whether you remove it, put it on Jaunt or whatever - I just ask that other solutions (and perhaps even more creative solutions that you come up with in house) be considered rather than folding to a seemingly unanimous perspective that in reality isn't. > > -------- > tl;dr: The issue is not about having access to stunbreak on the dodge keybind - rather it is about the **frequency** of access to stunbreak due to having it available on **every** dodge, given the fast endurance refill rates. No it is not only the low cd of the stunbreak on dodge that is a problem. It makes mirage only need one button to stunbreak and dodge in the same time during a chrono or warrior for example needs 2 buttons (what makes it slower in reactiontime and also means that the player use 2 different cooldowns and not only one). When you now additionally count in, that a mirage is able to cast during dodge and has a bit longer dodgeframe than he can dodge while breaking the stun and do a counter burst during still evading the stun-follow up from his opponent. Thats why i see a big problem in a stunbreak on the same button as dodge on a class with mirage mechanics. That mirage is able to dodge during being stunned without that trait is on the contrary not broken in my view. The mirage only can avoid the follow up (mostly dmg) but still can't use any skill, so he is still taken out of the fight for the whole stunduration and don't negate a stun completely. This is not op just a strong feature of the elite spec. Avoiding the stun in the first place is still more valuable for the mirage than eating the stun and being out of the fight for the whole stunduration during a mirage with elusive mind dont need to care for a stun at all and makes stuns completely useless that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Alright, here I go making a detailed list of what the actual problems with Mesmer are currently, or at least a half decent explanation of the legitimate claims I've seen on here so far. * Screen Clutter: An actual legitimate problem here, the prime culprit being Chronophantasma combined with Imagined Burden and the new Illusionary Warlock. Mesmers theme is deception and misdirection, true, but it is a little over the top. Personally I'm not sure how to solve this one and no, illusion cap isn't the answer, it just becomes a worse version of the old illusion system. * Too much evasion: While colloquially this takes the form of, 'Mesmer has perma invuln, blocks, evades, reflects, stealth' there is some merit in the case of Mirage which has a huge amount of hard evasion generation (e.g. skills directly produce evasions rather than generate endurance or something else). Personally the obvious outlier appears to be Desert Distortion. But Mirage is supposed to be hard to pin down and punish burst classes what kind of a realistic mirage is super clear and not foreboding at all. As far as blocks, Mesmer having blocks and evades is nearly mutually exclusive as the far better block skill belongs to Chronomancer. Additionally it's possible some people conflate the blocks and evades seeing as both Illusionary Counter and Illusionary Riposte have 1/2 second evades after triggering their block. * Too much cc/burst/damage: As far as cc goes, I'd say a main offender is Mirage Thrust, which is not only a daze and a gap closer, but also generates a clone, there's a lot going on for one attack on a fairly low cooldown tbh. As far as burst goes, I'm gonna say l2p on this one, burst is all about timing, just learn to recognize the actions leading up to the burst and then develop a strategy to nullify/counter it although if I had to pick something about it, I'd say it's got something to do with Shatter Storm and Confounding Suggestions although I'm not sure how popular either of those are. Damage, if phantasms and clones couldn't just be outright destroyed this would be more pertinent, and damage issues if anything necessitate numbers changes, not sweeping mechanical changes (e.g. revert the entire phantasm rework) * The ever-contentious Elusive Mind, something proper (not Exhaustion) needs to be done about it, Mesmers consistently asked for it to be redone even when the Specialization previews were happening and now exactly what they predicted about it has gone and happened. My suggestions: 1. Retool Chronophantasma's interaction with Phantasm skills, clearly how it is working now is oppressive with visual information. Possibly make it so phantasm skills operate on an ammo system with a modest interval between uses, 6 to 8 seconds perhaps. Purely reducing visual clutter seems like it's moderately complicated so it'll take a bit of thought 2. Evasion, remove or reduce hard dodge generation in Mirage (skills/traits the generate Mirage Mirrors, which are really unpopular anyway) and perhaps add in endurance generation, just as an example let's look at Desert Distortion and a couple of the Deception skills; * Desert Distortion -> Instead of generating Mirrors for each illusion shattered with Distortion, now restores some endurance per illusion shattered with Distortion * Sand Through Glass -> Instead of generating a Mirage Mirror by default, now restores endurance when used to break a stun. * Crystal Sands -> Gain a minimum amount of endurance (ideally little to prevent abuse) increasing a small amount or restoring more endurance when an enemy is hit by the projectiles 3. I wouldn't know how to tell you how to fix the cc problem other than maybe give Mirage Thrust something other than daze, cripple perhaps or a really really small immobilize. Or keep the Daze and make it so the clone version does not have daze on it (it's doable I assume since the clone and player versions of Imaginary Axes have differing effects) 4. As far as damage, number changes should do the trick, pllleasssee split them though. 5. Elusive Mind, the problem child. As far as retiring/reworking would go, I'm sure most people would be fine with that. If; however, it was absolutely necessary to keep something with the same theme this is what I would do: * Elusive Mind: Mirage Cloak grants Vigor for a short duration (1s) and removes (maybe converts since stun break is gone) a condition, Vigor applied to you is more effective (x% increase, I want to say 33% but I'm not sure how powerful that would be). Swap its position with Desert Distortion. Oh and for people that have an issue with Mirage Cloak being able to be used while CC'ed, just use your skills one second later, the Mirage will have blown a dodge and there's your window to get some hits in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > I'm going to post this in here as well because I feel quite strongly that EM has other options right now rather than the knee-jerk "remove stunbreak" that is being pushed as the "only" solution. > > > > One thing I would like to recap on regarding having stunbreak on dodge, because on this note I do disagree with some fellow mesmers as to it being an issue - in my opinion as a feature this is perfectly fine. Edit - for the record yes I was one of those during pof beta that shared the sentiment that this trait would never make it into live release due to being ridiculously powerful - however over the last 5 months my opinion has changed. As a trait it allows more options for building and choosing other utility skills rather than being forced into the usual Blink/SoM (RIP Decoy), encouraging experimenting with utilities that aren't stunbreaks (in reality we only have Blink, SoM, Decoy, Sand through Glass (which is bad - nobody will waste a slot for that) and Mantra (only useful in wvw group comps)). > > > > It is an active stunbreak just like any other skill requiring one button press. Just as a thought exercise, what if they had put a stunbreak on heal, on a shatter, on a weapon skill or on jaunt... there would be no issue because all those are seen as "skills/abilities". > > > > With the nature of Mirage's dodge it is worth viewing it from the perspective of being just another "skill/ability". ie it is worth considering Mirage as having NO dodge, but instead a "skill" with pseudo ammunition mechanic that provides 1s evade frame among other things. And this skill can be traited to to many things. > > > > The issue is not about having access to stunbreak on the dodge keybind - rather it is about the **frequency** of access to stunbreak due to having it available on **every** dodge, given the fast endurance refill rates. > > > > If this frequency was reduced such that stunbreak access from the dodge keybind would be limited to at most every "x" number of seconds then I believe this would be balanced. > > > > But that would require decoupling the stunbreak cooldown from the dodge "cooldown" - so how to show this on the UI? Use the same white line moving around the skill as the ammunition mechanic uses to show the cooldown on a charge. This white line would move around the endurance bar exactly the same as the ammunition mechanic cooldown UI indicator, allowing the cooldown of stunbreak to be set at whatever is suitable, as well as enabling the mesmer player to know when it is available/off cooldown. They could even change the endurance bar colour when it is on cooldown (ie make it darker or something) and make it flash as it comes off cooldown, or some other effect in addition to the moving line. > > > > Bottom line is I don't mind which route you guys take, whether you remove it, put it on Jaunt or whatever - I just ask that other solutions (and perhaps even more creative solutions that you come up with in house) be considered rather than folding to a seemingly unanimous perspective that in reality isn't. > > > > -------- > > tl;dr: The issue is not about having access to stunbreak on the dodge keybind - rather it is about the **frequency** of access to stunbreak due to having it available on **every** dodge, given the fast endurance refill rates. > > No it is not only the low cd of the stunbreak on dodge that is a problem. It makes mirage only need one button to stunbreak and dodge in the same time during a chrono or warrior for example needs 2 buttons (what makes it slower in reactiontime and also means that the player use 2 different cooldowns and not only one). When you now additionally count in, that a mirage is able to cast during dodge and has a bit longer dodgeframe than he can dodge while breaking the stun and do a counter burst during still evading the stun-follow up from his opponent. Thats why i see a big problem in a stunbreak on the same button as dodge on a class with mirage mechanics. > > That mirage is able to dodge during being stunned without that trait is on the contrary not broken in my view. The mirage only can avoid the follow up (mostly dmg) but still can't use any skill, so he is still taken out of the fight for the whole stunduration and don't negate a stun completely. This is not op just a strong feature of the elite spec. Avoiding the stun in the first place is still more valuable for the mirage than eating the stun and being out of the fight for the whole stunduration during a mirage with elusive mind dont need to care for a stun at all and makes stuns completely useless that way. I disagree with the number of button press or skill cooldown analysis because this isn't really fair to compare across classes. Mirage has no F5 or additional skill mechanic (aside from ambush which is enabled by dodge in the same way that an additional F skill on another class enables new skill usage), and instead it can be considered that dodge has been replaced by an "F5 skill" that happens to be on a short cooldown with built in evade and ammunition recharge (endurance). On that note one could consider stunbreak on celestial avatar/beastmode for example. Yes I can accept and do agree that being able to do anything during the evade frame following breaking a cc effect, allowing uncounterable counter burst isn't ideal because it rewards bad play due to eating the stun in the first place - which is why I also like the idea of converting all hard cc into a self daze with duration identical to the duration of the cc (but daze itself is removed to nothing) - so you break stun and can move but wouldn't be able to use skills to attack until the daze wears off - making EM a purely defensive survival trait that allows the player to move but not attack immediately after breaking stun. However if the decoupled cooldown of the stunbreak was long enough then even with the above I wouldn't consider it to be a big problem given it wouldn't be possible all that frequently. Alternative possibilities could be to inflict self weakness which would limit the ability to counter burst at full value during the evade frame, or use some other means to reduce the ability to output huge damage during that 1 second (ie maybe using a heal could be allowed, but not shatters or weapon skills - not sure how they'd implement this). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Now that ANET nerfed everything but mesmer, the class is even more braindead because of low damage income. That's why patches should be announced first and discussed. Please make that attacking while dodging remove the evade effect ( incrase ofc ambush duration by 1 sec. Give them a choice. ) It's currently the only class which can attack while invul every 5 sec ( permavigor because f1-f4, heal and crit ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > Please make that attacking while dodging remove the evade effect ( incrase ofc ambush duration by 1 sec. Give them a choice. ) > It's currently the only class which can attack while invul every 5 sec ( permavigor because f1-f4, heal and crit ) I like it. Since we're unto it, after you connect lacernous, pistol whip, bound, lotus training, vault you can't evade for 1 sec. Or if you evade an attack while doing any of these, all damage you did is negated, so 0. (Give them a choice). - ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > I'm going to post this in here as well because I feel quite strongly that EM has other options right now rather than the knee-jerk "remove stunbreak" that is being pushed as the "only" solution. > > > > > > One thing I would like to recap on regarding having stunbreak on dodge, because on this note I do disagree with some fellow mesmers as to it being an issue - in my opinion as a feature this is perfectly fine. Edit - for the record yes I was one of those during pof beta that shared the sentiment that this trait would never make it into live release due to being ridiculously powerful - however over the last 5 months my opinion has changed. As a trait it allows more options for building and choosing other utility skills rather than being forced into the usual Blink/SoM (RIP Decoy), encouraging experimenting with utilities that aren't stunbreaks (in reality we only have Blink, SoM, Decoy, Sand through Glass (which is bad - nobody will waste a slot for that) and Mantra (only useful in wvw group comps)). > > > > > > It is an active stunbreak just like any other skill requiring one button press. Just as a thought exercise, what if they had put a stunbreak on heal, on a shatter, on a weapon skill or on jaunt... there would be no issue because all those are seen as "skills/abilities". > > > > > > With the nature of Mirage's dodge it is worth viewing it from the perspective of being just another "skill/ability". ie it is worth considering Mirage as having NO dodge, but instead a "skill" with pseudo ammunition mechanic that provides 1s evade frame among other things. And this skill can be traited to to many things. > > > > > > The issue is not about having access to stunbreak on the dodge keybind - rather it is about the **frequency** of access to stunbreak due to having it available on **every** dodge, given the fast endurance refill rates. > > > > > > If this frequency was reduced such that stunbreak access from the dodge keybind would be limited to at most every "x" number of seconds then I believe this would be balanced. > > > > > > But that would require decoupling the stunbreak cooldown from the dodge "cooldown" - so how to show this on the UI? Use the same white line moving around the skill as the ammunition mechanic uses to show the cooldown on a charge. This white line would move around the endurance bar exactly the same as the ammunition mechanic cooldown UI indicator, allowing the cooldown of stunbreak to be set at whatever is suitable, as well as enabling the mesmer player to know when it is available/off cooldown. They could even change the endurance bar colour when it is on cooldown (ie make it darker or something) and make it flash as it comes off cooldown, or some other effect in addition to the moving line. > > > > > > Bottom line is I don't mind which route you guys take, whether you remove it, put it on Jaunt or whatever - I just ask that other solutions (and perhaps even more creative solutions that you come up with in house) be considered rather than folding to a seemingly unanimous perspective that in reality isn't. > > > > > > -------- > > > tl;dr: The issue is not about having access to stunbreak on the dodge keybind - rather it is about the **frequency** of access to stunbreak due to having it available on **every** dodge, given the fast endurance refill rates. > > > > No it is not only the low cd of the stunbreak on dodge that is a problem. It makes mirage only need one button to stunbreak and dodge in the same time during a chrono or warrior for example needs 2 buttons (what makes it slower in reactiontime and also means that the player use 2 different cooldowns and not only one). When you now additionally count in, that a mirage is able to cast during dodge and has a bit longer dodgeframe than he can dodge while breaking the stun and do a counter burst during still evading the stun-follow up from his opponent. Thats why i see a big problem in a stunbreak on the same button as dodge on a class with mirage mechanics. > > > > That mirage is able to dodge during being stunned without that trait is on the contrary not broken in my view. The mirage only can avoid the follow up (mostly dmg) but still can't use any skill, so he is still taken out of the fight for the whole stunduration and don't negate a stun completely. This is not op just a strong feature of the elite spec. Avoiding the stun in the first place is still more valuable for the mirage than eating the stun and being out of the fight for the whole stunduration during a mirage with elusive mind dont need to care for a stun at all and makes stuns completely useless that way. > > I disagree with the number of button press or skill cooldown analysis because this isn't really fair to compare across classes. Mirage has no F5 or additional skill mechanic (aside from ambush which is enabled by dodge in the same way that an additional F skill on another class enables new skill usage), and instead it can be considered that dodge has been replaced by an "F5 skill" that happens to be on a short cooldown with built in evade and ammunition recharge (endurance). On that note one could consider stunbreak on celestial avatar/beastmode for example. > > Yes I can accept and do agree that being able to do anything during the evade frame following breaking a cc effect, allowing uncounterable counter burst isn't ideal because it rewards bad play due to eating the stun in the first place - which is why I also like the idea of converting all hard cc into a self daze with duration identical to the duration of the cc (but daze itself is removed to nothing) - so you break stun and can move but wouldn't be able to use skills to attack until the daze wears off - making EM a purely defensive survival trait that allows the player to move but not attack immediately after breaking stun. > > However if the decoupled cooldown of the stunbreak was long enough then even with the above I wouldn't consider it to be a big problem given it wouldn't be possible all that frequently. Alternative possibilities could be to inflict self weakness which would limit the ability to counter burst at full value during the evade frame, or use some other means to reduce the ability to output huge damage during that 1 second (ie maybe using a heal could be allowed, but not shatters or weapon skills - not sure how they'd implement this). Tbh i don't understand your arguments in the first paragraph about the cooldowns. Either i'm stupid or you missunderstood me, i feel your writing don't fit to what i said at all. What i mean is, that every other build than mirage have to press 2 buttons, they need to use a stunbreak (one cooldown) and then still need to press dodge to avoid the follow up (second cooldown), these are 2 button activations instead of one and also 2 cooldowns used instead of one. And this is not a needed mirage feature it is broken. Even more a stunbreak on dodge would be less op on a chrono than on mirage, because mirage can cast during dodge and has longer evade frame. Mirage don't separate between a good or a bad player and not vs a player with good or bad keybinds. It doens't matter how slow or fast a player is. With pressing only one button a bad player is as fast as a good player with using stunbreaking and dodge. Elusive mind makes mirage very noobfriedly and rewards slow reactions in the same way than fast reactions and good keybinds. There is not a single good reason i can imagine why having dodge and stunbreak on one button (like a mini macro) is needed for the mirage spec. mirages has a strong mechnic already without that, this just lower the skill which is needed to be a good mirage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > I'm done with people stupidity , you doing something to make trait work -> wow you dont even think/do anything to make it work. Doesnt matter think you about it or not you do your usual business as for example magebane tether , he trying to kill you , hit with bursts not because he exactly want to trigger tether but because you want to land your important skills . > > You whine about inspiration,really (which taken for cleanses that mesmer lack that hard and give up a trait line for it) Why you arent complaining about warrior using defense for AH which allow them absurd amount of facetanking and staying alive? > > Chaos mirage doesnt have that much might as before or insane damage as you say. > > Old system was good ? How come? Regardless of recieved stats players always went for best traits and gave 0 foks if they got bonus stats or not. > > Aids forum and its people ,what else to add > > Is this even english? O_o You always start insulting with pretty meaningless stuff in addition. I am not a mesmer hater nor a mesmer main, i try to be constructive and objective, you just write a lot but saying nothing, except ppl are stupid and its all a l2p issue when they touch the build you play more than you want it. Cringy I should call you genius for saying that you never think about stuff you (aka mindless spamming of shatters and getting boons,cleanses) I should repeat myself 100 times? You crying for nerfs on something never been broken and want to nerf something that need no nerfs. This entire thread became an abomination tailored from other threads. If i spam my vision of perfect changes 1 million times that 'correct' for my taste dont think that would be noted. All i see from you that you are clueless and call chaos/inspi traitline for noobs that need extra carry lmao. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > Please make that attacking while dodging remove the evade effect ( incrase ofc ambush duration by 1 sec. Give them a choice. ) > > It's currently the only class which can attack while invul every 5 sec ( permavigor because f1-f4, heal and crit ) > > I like it. > Since we're unto it, after you connect lacernous, pistol whip, bound, lotus training, vault you can't evade for 1 sec. > - ^ > > What you ask is senseless because different reasons: * Flanking strike is a skill with evade, like warrior's wirlwind. If you connect, the lacerous strike does not have evade on its own. * Pistol whip does not have evade does not follow the target. > The broken one is blurred frenzy, which should be changed too ( same damage, but faster hits in order to lower the evade to 1/2 sec. No more following the target. This will prevent mesmers from using it as a constant spam in order to recover meanwhile endurance, cds and so on. * Vault and lotus training are dodge on are with damage effect, and both are useless in a spvp scenario ( even if you could find some condi thieves at 900-1600 rank ). Classes shouln't be able to perform skills while evading, but a skill with an average cd could have an evade too. Mesmer invulnerability ( as warrior endure pain ) should become a channeling like guardian or warrior ( and so should be the engineer elixir and mist form ). First they should remove those kind of invul, then they can balance the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > I'm done with people stupidity , you doing something to make trait work -> wow you dont even think/do anything to make it work. Doesnt matter think you about it or not you do your usual business as for example magebane tether , he trying to kill you , hit with bursts not because he exactly want to trigger tether but because you want to land your important skills . > > > You whine about inspiration,really (which taken for cleanses that mesmer lack that hard and give up a trait line for it) Why you arent complaining about warrior using defense for AH which allow them absurd amount of facetanking and staying alive? > > > Chaos mirage doesnt have that much might as before or insane damage as you say. > > > Old system was good ? How come? Regardless of recieved stats players always went for best traits and gave 0 foks if they got bonus stats or not. > > > Aids forum and its people ,what else to add > > > > Is this even english? O_o You always start insulting with pretty meaningless stuff in addition. I am not a mesmer hater nor a mesmer main, i try to be constructive and objective, you just write a lot but saying nothing, except ppl are stupid and its all a l2p issue when they touch the build you play more than you want it. Cringy > > I should call you genius for saying that you never think about stuff you (aka mindless spamming of shatters and getting boons,cleanses) > I should repeat myself 100 times? You crying for nerfs on something never been broken and want to nerf something that need no nerfs. This entire thread became an abomination tailored from other threads. If i spam my vision of perfect changes 1 million times that 'correct' for my taste dont think that would be noted. > All i see from you that you are clueless and call chaos/inspi traitline for noobs that need extra carry lmao. We have different opinions it seems just that i don't need to flame you in a stupid way for that. Maybe, just maybe, your PoV is not the one and only right one? How narcissistic are you? To call everyone asking for more or other nerfs than you the "god of mesmer" (irony alert) is stupid or just bad? I'm sure you are one of the mesmer using either chaos or inspiration and that is why you get so butthurt/ triggered when someone wanna nerf it more than you would like to see it. As someone playing mesmer from time to time without being exceptional good on it even i see and feel that i get somehow carried when using one of these traitlines. It is even logic that the very easy applied - easy because just as a sideline of using shatterskills you use anyway and most of the time don't use only or on purpose for the affect from inspi or chaos- sustain from these traitlines (lets call it semi passive traitlines) allows to make more mistakes without dying. If you don't want to call it carry just lets say mesmer gets remarkable easier to play with one of these traitlines. Inspiratoion was nerfed in PvP already for good reasons (sadly not in WvW) and it is still far away from being up after nerfs. Point proven. All Inspiration user before the nerfs said the same thing like you now: the defensive lines of mesmer are not op. And inspiration is only needed for the condiremove even tho it gives way more facetank ability also vs powerbuilds from the heals and the defender proc. So i think they are wrong again. Chaosline got some nerfs recently, i just doubt it was enough. You have a different opinion on that, so let it just be like that. Arguing with you will also be a waste of time and i'm tired of your pugnacity and your flaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > Please make that attacking while dodging remove the evade effect ( incrase ofc ambush duration by 1 sec. Give them a choice. ) > > > It's currently the only class which can attack while invul every 5 sec ( permavigor because f1-f4, heal and crit ) > > > > I like it. > > Since we're unto it, after you connect lacernous, pistol whip, bound, lotus training, vault you can't evade for 1 sec. > > - ^ > > > > > > What you ask is senseless because different reasons: > > * Flanking strike is a skill with evade, like warrior's wirlwind. If you connect, the lacerous strike does not have evade on its own. > * Pistol whip does not have evade does not follow the target. > > > The broken one is blurred frenzy, which should be changed too ( same damage, but faster hits in order to lower the evade to 1/2 sec. No more following the target. This will prevent mesmers from using it as a constant spam in order to recover meanwhile endurance, cds and so on. > > * Vault and lotus training are dodge on are with damage effect, and both are useless in a spvp scenario ( even if you could find some condi thieves at 900-1600 rank ). > > Classes shouln't be able to perform skills while evading, but a skill with an average cd could have an evade too. > > Mesmer invulnerability ( as warrior endure pain ) should become a channeling like guardian or warrior ( and so should be the engineer elixir and mist form ). > > First they should remove those kind of invul, then they can balance the game. I know it's senseless, it was on purpose to show you that your suggestion is bad. Wait, so BF should be a 1/2 evade but PW could remain 1.25sec There's no difference between attack and defense at once and attack and defense at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > Please make that attacking while dodging remove the evade effect ( incrase ofc ambush duration by 1 sec. Give them a choice. ) > > > It's currently the only class which can attack while invul every 5 sec ( permavigor because f1-f4, heal and crit ) > > > > I like it. > > Since we're unto it, after you connect lacernous, pistol whip, bound, lotus training, vault you can't evade for 1 sec. > > - ^ > > > > > > What you ask is senseless because different reasons: > > * Flanking strike is a skill with evade, like warrior's wirlwind. If you connect, the lacerous strike does not have evade on its own. > * Pistol whip does not have evade does not follow the target. > > > The broken one is blurred frenzy, which should be changed too ( same damage, but faster hits in order to lower the evade to 1/2 sec. No more following the target. This will prevent mesmers from using it as a constant spam in order to recover meanwhile endurance, cds and so on. > > * Vault and lotus training are dodge on are with damage effect, and both are useless in a spvp scenario ( even if you could find some condi thieves at 900-1600 rank ). > > Classes shouln't be able to perform skills while evading, but a skill with an average cd could have an evade too. > > Mesmer invulnerability ( as warrior endure pain ) should become a channeling like guardian or warrior ( and so should be the engineer elixir and mist form ). > > First they should remove those kind of invul, then they can balance the game. So your idea to fix Mirage is to delete Mirages main theme. Pistol Whip does have evade bruh. Why shouldn't an interesting mechanic such as making evasion both an offensive and defensive tool exist? I'm legitimately asking because I don't understand that train of thought because it just seems like you don't like to fight it. Mesmer invulnerability can be cut down to 1 second by an aware enemy, whereas Guardian invuln is always 3 seconds, both Ele invulns are 3 seconds as well. And for the record warrior doesn't have a channeled invuln and Engi elixir and Ele Mist form both prevent skill usage but Ele earth focus 5 does not. Invulnerability is not the imbalanced part of the game, it's a stopgap that just prolongs a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > Please make that attacking while dodging remove the evade effect ( incrase ofc ambush duration by 1 sec. Give them a choice. ) > > > > It's currently the only class which can attack while invul every 5 sec ( permavigor because f1-f4, heal and crit ) > > > > > > I like it. > > > Since we're unto it, after you connect lacernous, pistol whip, bound, lotus training, vault you can't evade for 1 sec. > > > - ^ > > > > > > > > > > What you ask is senseless because different reasons: > > > > * Flanking strike is a skill with evade, like warrior's wirlwind. If you connect, the lacerous strike does not have evade on its own. > > * Pistol whip does not have evade does not follow the target. > > > > > The broken one is blurred frenzy, which should be changed too ( same damage, but faster hits in order to lower the evade to 1/2 sec. No more following the target. This will prevent mesmers from using it as a constant spam in order to recover meanwhile endurance, cds and so on. > > > > * Vault and lotus training are dodge on are with damage effect, and both are useless in a spvp scenario ( even if you could find some condi thieves at 900-1600 rank ). > > > > Classes shouln't be able to perform skills while evading, but a skill with an average cd could have an evade too. > > > > Mesmer invulnerability ( as warrior endure pain ) should become a channeling like guardian or warrior ( and so should be the engineer elixir and mist form ). > > > > First they should remove those kind of invul, then they can balance the game. > > I know it's senseless, it was on purpose to show you that your suggestion is bad. > Wait, so BF should be a 1/2 evade but PW could remain 1.25sec > > There's no difference between attack and defense at once and attack and defense at once. > BF should be reworked into a 1/2 duration skill. Probably a flurry attack won't do the deal, but something like a single hit ( good dmg ) 1/2 sec evade on 10/12 sec cd would be fine. Mine suggestions are good, unless you don't know what "trade" means in terms of attack and defense ( but reading that you compare the mirage cloak with vault and lotus which nobody uses says everything )., Invul should prevent ANY action, unless we are talking about single skill with part of the animation which gives evade. @"EpicTurtle.8571" : mesmer will have everything if you read my post. It will be just able to make a choice. To cast interrupting his dodge or to wait the end of the dodge, in order to use his dodge to avoid attacks. It won't change anything, but the mesmer will be able to get hit while using kills. Like any other class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: Except im playing gs, ooooops ... Play inspiration/chaos/mirage and get that top1 kappa You proven point for yourself ? You call for nerfs on 2 trailines that never been considered OP before phantasm rework. (Why you even complaint about inspiration if its not used by any meta build ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????) Wait you tell me now thats inspiration increase facetank ability just becaue shatters heal a bit? For what it heals i wouldnt ever it 'allow facetanking' but probably its just your opinion LOL (and defender became not so defending xD) Only thing in chaos i would nerf its only illusionary defense that work to well with chrono and rest untouched. Mind to tell anet that other 2 grandmaster traits are garbage? I would just quote one guy : > Honestly I'm surprised by the complaints about Chaos - one one hand I have been using it since pof release due to it's synergy with mirage boon access (eg vigour and regen and might combined with fury and vigour from Duelling) - but now it's like suddenly all the "meta" people have focused their attention on Chaos. The grandmasters are mediocre - PU is weak nowadays, CI likewise and BD is just about passable as decent. Without the boon synergy, Chaos is pretty weak so Anet have to be careful with balancing. >Inspiration GM are also meh - nobody uses glamours anymore, Mental Defence is such a long cooldown and bad without Chrono, and Illusionary Inspiration is nothing special. >Yeah there are a lot of useless/meh traits around that are conveniently ignored. (other grandmaster chaos and inspiration traitlines,BUFF PLS) "i dont main mesmer" but i just want nerfs this and that for no real good reason. Btw i hate how warriors being carried by adrenal health (and im myself when im playing it) ,becomes too easy and forgiving ,plox ? To deal with a Mesmer and change traits ,they need to change Chronophantasma and its traits first. But dont mind me , im just mesmer main that playing GS (with inspiration/chaos/ enter elite traitline . I need to be carried ,okay ?) (you may not respond to this message ,idc to read your messages anyway) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > I'm going to post this in here as well because I feel quite strongly that EM has other options right now rather than the knee-jerk "remove stunbreak" that is being pushed as the "only" solution. > > > > > > > > One thing I would like to recap on regarding having stunbreak on dodge, because on this note I do disagree with some fellow mesmers as to it being an issue - in my opinion as a feature this is perfectly fine. Edit - for the record yes I was one of those during pof beta that shared the sentiment that this trait would never make it into live release due to being ridiculously powerful - however over the last 5 months my opinion has changed. As a trait it allows more options for building and choosing other utility skills rather than being forced into the usual Blink/SoM (RIP Decoy), encouraging experimenting with utilities that aren't stunbreaks (in reality we only have Blink, SoM, Decoy, Sand through Glass (which is bad - nobody will waste a slot for that) and Mantra (only useful in wvw group comps)). > > > > > > > > It is an active stunbreak just like any other skill requiring one button press. Just as a thought exercise, what if they had put a stunbreak on heal, on a shatter, on a weapon skill or on jaunt... there would be no issue because all those are seen as "skills/abilities". > > > > > > > > With the nature of Mirage's dodge it is worth viewing it from the perspective of being just another "skill/ability". ie it is worth considering Mirage as having NO dodge, but instead a "skill" with pseudo ammunition mechanic that provides 1s evade frame among other things. And this skill can be traited to to many things. > > > > > > > > The issue is not about having access to stunbreak on the dodge keybind - rather it is about the **frequency** of access to stunbreak due to having it available on **every** dodge, given the fast endurance refill rates. > > > > > > > > If this frequency was reduced such that stunbreak access from the dodge keybind would be limited to at most every "x" number of seconds then I believe this would be balanced. > > > > > > > > But that would require decoupling the stunbreak cooldown from the dodge "cooldown" - so how to show this on the UI? Use the same white line moving around the skill as the ammunition mechanic uses to show the cooldown on a charge. This white line would move around the endurance bar exactly the same as the ammunition mechanic cooldown UI indicator, allowing the cooldown of stunbreak to be set at whatever is suitable, as well as enabling the mesmer player to know when it is available/off cooldown. They could even change the endurance bar colour when it is on cooldown (ie make it darker or something) and make it flash as it comes off cooldown, or some other effect in addition to the moving line. > > > > > > > > Bottom line is I don't mind which route you guys take, whether you remove it, put it on Jaunt or whatever - I just ask that other solutions (and perhaps even more creative solutions that you come up with in house) be considered rather than folding to a seemingly unanimous perspective that in reality isn't. > > > > > > > > -------- > > > > tl;dr: The issue is not about having access to stunbreak on the dodge keybind - rather it is about the **frequency** of access to stunbreak due to having it available on **every** dodge, given the fast endurance refill rates. > > > > > > No it is not only the low cd of the stunbreak on dodge that is a problem. It makes mirage only need one button to stunbreak and dodge in the same time during a chrono or warrior for example needs 2 buttons (what makes it slower in reactiontime and also means that the player use 2 different cooldowns and not only one). When you now additionally count in, that a mirage is able to cast during dodge and has a bit longer dodgeframe than he can dodge while breaking the stun and do a counter burst during still evading the stun-follow up from his opponent. Thats why i see a big problem in a stunbreak on the same button as dodge on a class with mirage mechanics. > > > > > > That mirage is able to dodge during being stunned without that trait is on the contrary not broken in my view. The mirage only can avoid the follow up (mostly dmg) but still can't use any skill, so he is still taken out of the fight for the whole stunduration and don't negate a stun completely. This is not op just a strong feature of the elite spec. Avoiding the stun in the first place is still more valuable for the mirage than eating the stun and being out of the fight for the whole stunduration during a mirage with elusive mind dont need to care for a stun at all and makes stuns completely useless that way. > > > > I disagree with the number of button press or skill cooldown analysis because this isn't really fair to compare across classes. Mirage has no F5 or additional skill mechanic (aside from ambush which is enabled by dodge in the same way that an additional F skill on another class enables new skill usage), and instead it can be considered that dodge has been replaced by an "F5 skill" that happens to be on a short cooldown with built in evade and ammunition recharge (endurance). On that note one could consider stunbreak on celestial avatar/beastmode for example. > > > > Yes I can accept and do agree that being able to do anything during the evade frame following breaking a cc effect, allowing uncounterable counter burst isn't ideal because it rewards bad play due to eating the stun in the first place - which is why I also like the idea of converting all hard cc into a self daze with duration identical to the duration of the cc (but daze itself is removed to nothing) - so you break stun and can move but wouldn't be able to use skills to attack until the daze wears off - making EM a purely defensive survival trait that allows the player to move but not attack immediately after breaking stun. > > > > However if the decoupled cooldown of the stunbreak was long enough then even with the above I wouldn't consider it to be a big problem given it wouldn't be possible all that frequently. Alternative possibilities could be to inflict self weakness which would limit the ability to counter burst at full value during the evade frame, or use some other means to reduce the ability to output huge damage during that 1 second (ie maybe using a heal could be allowed, but not shatters or weapon skills - not sure how they'd implement this). > > Tbh i don't understand your arguments in the first paragraph about the cooldowns. Either i'm stupid or you missunderstood me, i feel your writing don't fit to what i said at all. What i mean is, that every other build than mirage have to press 2 buttons, they need to use a stunbreak (one cooldown) and then still need to press dodge to avoid the follow up (second cooldown), these are 2 button activations instead of one and also 2 cooldowns used instead of one. And this is not a needed mirage feature it is broken. Even more a stunbreak on dodge would be less op on a chrono than on mirage, because mirage can cast during dodge and has longer evade frame. Mirage don't separate between a good or a bad player and not vs a player with good or bad keybinds. It doens't matter how slow or fast a player is. With pressing only one button a bad player is as fast as a good player with using stunbreaking and dodge. Elusive mind makes mirage very noobfriedly and rewards slow reactions in the same way than fast reactions and good keybinds. There is not a single good reason i can imagine why having dodge and stunbreak on one button (like a mini macro) is needed for the mirage spec. mirages has a strong mechnic already without that, this just lower the skill which is needed to be a good mirage. Well from my perspective I don't see the problem with 2 button presses vs a streamlined 1 button press just because it has built in evade - especially considering stunbreak utilities with built in evade, stealth, block or even movement. It's still an active stunbreak on a GM trait - if it had less frequent access then it would be fine. We'll just have to disagree on this point. Hypothetically if they put an F5 skill for mirage that was stunbreak only - giving you 2 button presses/cooldowns when used in addition with dodge, how is this any different to having it streamlined into dodge? That's what I was trying to get at with my previous statement - ie mirage doesn't have additional mechanics because the dodge is the new "skill". As to whether the core function of this new "skill" is balanced for the state of the game (ie being able to put evade frames wherever you want) - that's a different matter. One could also comment regarding movement that mirage requires several actions to move when dodging - press dodge, rotate camera and use forward or strafe direction keys - compared to normal dodge on other classes or core mesmer/chrono which is only one button press with built in movement and evade. The one point I agree with you on is being able to get up and counter burst with evasion as a reward for bad play, after eating a cc - which I have stated some possible solutions to prevent this. I don't believe removing the stunbreak is necessary to remedy this when there are other possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > Please make that attacking while dodging remove the evade effect ( incrase ofc ambush duration by 1 sec. Give them a choice. ) > > > > > It's currently the only class which can attack while invul every 5 sec ( permavigor because f1-f4, heal and crit ) > > > > > > > > I like it. > > > > Since we're unto it, after you connect lacernous, pistol whip, bound, lotus training, vault you can't evade for 1 sec. > > > > - ^ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What you ask is senseless because different reasons: > > > > > > * Flanking strike is a skill with evade, like warrior's wirlwind. If you connect, the lacerous strike does not have evade on its own. > > > * Pistol whip does not have evade does not follow the target. > > > > > > > The broken one is blurred frenzy, which should be changed too ( same damage, but faster hits in order to lower the evade to 1/2 sec. No more following the target. This will prevent mesmers from using it as a constant spam in order to recover meanwhile endurance, cds and so on. > > > > > > * Vault and lotus training are dodge on are with damage effect, and both are useless in a spvp scenario ( even if you could find some condi thieves at 900-1600 rank ). > > > > > > Classes shouln't be able to perform skills while evading, but a skill with an average cd could have an evade too. > > > > > > Mesmer invulnerability ( as warrior endure pain ) should become a channeling like guardian or warrior ( and so should be the engineer elixir and mist form ). > > > > > > First they should remove those kind of invul, then they can balance the game. > > > > I know it's senseless, it was on purpose to show you that your suggestion is bad. > > Wait, so BF should be a 1/2 evade but PW could remain 1.25sec > > > > There's no difference between attack and defense at once and attack and defense at once. > > > > > BF should be reworked into a 1/2 duration skill. > Probably a flurry attack won't do the deal, but something like a single hit ( good dmg ) 1/2 sec evade on 10/12 sec cd would be fine. > > Mine suggestions are good, unless you don't know what "trade" means in terms of attack and defense ( but reading that you compare the mirage cloak with vault and lotus which nobody uses says everything )., > Invul should prevent ANY action, unless we are talking about single skill with part of the animation which gives evade. Meanwhile PW remains a spammable 1.25 evade and Flanking Strike a spammable 3/4 evade. Blurred Frenzy doesn't follow the target either, it's the exact same as PW except the longer evade and no stun. Thief, War, Necro, Ele, Engi on top of my head, all those have options to deal damage on evade. I read that as a invuln should prevent any action as long as it's not my profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > @"CreedOfGod.9764" said: > > > > > > > > Joining the party late, figured this is the best place for an opinion though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm biased because i'm a thief main, but I do not think that there should be another class with *more* mobility AND *more* damage than thief. Thief has been hit several times in the patches, from what im assuming is because of crazy mobility combined with burst, we have been toned down. Mirage has a plethora of evades, invulns/reflects teleports/ leaps/ invisibility/stuns/range/melee everything. Thief does have some of these tools, but no where near the level of mirage, not even daredevil is this efficient. I all for mirage being a master of misdirection, but mirage, for lack of a better statement, is just a straight up better thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to burst is fine. > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to juke and misdirect opponents is fine > > > > > > > > Mirage having more mobility than base mesmer/chrono is fine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to out run a thief that is using every available resource is not fine > > > > > > > > Mirage having more single target teleports, shadowsteps, stealth and more burst than thief, is not fine. > > > > > > > > Mirage being able to out burst a thief in full glass and have access to invuln + constant evade is not fine > > > > > > > > (mind wrack doing as much as a backstab, without any of the required preparation) > > > > > > > > Mirage summoning 60 clones at once is scary and I don't understand it > > > > > > > > Jaunt should have a longer cooldown (3-5 seconds) > > > > > > > > Sword ambush should be a smaller leap > > > > > > > > Illusionary ambush should be 900 range not 1200 > > > > > > > > Mirage gets superspeed on dodge, when thief ("the most mobile class") only has superspeed when stealing from a ranger? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /rant > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief counters power mirage no matter what build the thief is playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > lol wut. I stopped reading at this, because it is no longer October 22nd, 2015. > > > > > > > > > > I'm in 2018 clearly. Maybe you NA? Than we have the problem. There somehow ppl believe thief now is a victim even from power mesmers... > > > > > > > > You are clearly not living in 2018. Thieves have not countered power Mesmers since before HoT was released. Chrono broke that little "scissors-beats-paper." I am not at all implying that power mesmers currently *counter* Thieves, though that seems to be what you are fabricating from my response. > > > > > > sd hardcounters all power mesmer, dp counters power mirage and harcounters power chrono, every other thief build still counter power mesmer (mirage and chrono), gw2 2k18. You didn't answered the question, you from NA? > > > > Again, you seem to be living in the time of October 22nd, 2015 or before that date. Either that or you are just not very good at playing Mesmer if these builds *hard* counter you. > > > > I'm not sure why you seem to think what region I play on has any effect on how wrong you are, but since you seem to be losing sleep over this: I currently play on NA, transferred here from EU some time ago as EU roamers were generally ...not very challenging. > > So it is as i thought you just reply the wrong common sense from NA. It is a fact that sd hardcounter power mesmer lmao. I don't start to repeat what i said to all other thief builds. Can you even explain what changed that mesmer don't get countered by a thief anymore? > > The headshotspam by dp gets weaker vs mirage because they can dodge during cast. This makes a power mirage a harder matchup for a dp than a power chrono but still not a hard matchup. The mirage needs to use dodges to finish casts without being interrupted. The dp has enough dodges to avoid the good telegraphed main dmg sources of a powerr mes (berserker and gs2 shatter combo), after the mirage used dodge to secure casts the thief will evade ez anyway, the mesmer lacks in dodges to avoid the thieves attacks. Not to mention double use of op orb from steal. Without safespots to prevent the thief can port to the mesmer the mesmer has no chance when both player have same skill lvl. > > Even shorter said: every thief with a sb counters mesmer, with the bouncing autoattack and the cluster bombs it's very easy to cleave all illusions and the mesmer itself during you can spam dodges and the evade from sb 3. > > The way you write i more believe you switched to NA because EU roamer were too challenging for you tbh. Not that you can't find a lot of bad player in WvW also in EU... but nvm i get tired of these dispute, you cannot be convinced anyway i think, so just believe what you want. I will ignore you from now on because it's a waste of time to discuss with you. > > Ah, you are EU. It is probable that you are one of the many who were just not challenging enough and forced a migration from a lot of players over to NA for roaming purposes. Especially since you refer to Consume Plasma as OP - this shows your lack of understanding. No wonder you think Mesmers are still hard countered by Thieves. You must not be very good at playing either if that is how you think. Try roaming a few times, as you are clearly inexperienced with small scale. The fights are a lot more intimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > > Please make that attacking while dodging remove the evade effect ( incrase ofc ambush duration by 1 sec. Give them a choice. ) > > > > > > It's currently the only class which can attack while invul every 5 sec ( permavigor because f1-f4, heal and crit ) > > > > > > > > > > I like it. > > > > > Since we're unto it, after you connect lacernous, pistol whip, bound, lotus training, vault you can't evade for 1 sec. > > > > > - ^ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What you ask is senseless because different reasons: > > > > > > > > * Flanking strike is a skill with evade, like warrior's wirlwind. If you connect, the lacerous strike does not have evade on its own. > > > > * Pistol whip does not have evade does not follow the target. > > > > > > > > > The broken one is blurred frenzy, which should be changed too ( same damage, but faster hits in order to lower the evade to 1/2 sec. No more following the target. This will prevent mesmers from using it as a constant spam in order to recover meanwhile endurance, cds and so on. > > > > > > > > * Vault and lotus training are dodge on are with damage effect, and both are useless in a spvp scenario ( even if you could find some condi thieves at 900-1600 rank ). > > > > > > > > Classes shouln't be able to perform skills while evading, but a skill with an average cd could have an evade too. > > > > > > > > Mesmer invulnerability ( as warrior endure pain ) should become a channeling like guardian or warrior ( and so should be the engineer elixir and mist form ). > > > > > > > > First they should remove those kind of invul, then they can balance the game. > > > > > > I know it's senseless, it was on purpose to show you that your suggestion is bad. > > > Wait, so BF should be a 1/2 evade but PW could remain 1.25sec > > > > > > There's no difference between attack and defense at once and attack and defense at once. > > > > > > > > > BF should be reworked into a 1/2 duration skill. > > Probably a flurry attack won't do the deal, but something like a single hit ( good dmg ) 1/2 sec evade on 10/12 sec cd would be fine. > > > > Mine suggestions are good, unless you don't know what "trade" means in terms of attack and defense ( but reading that you compare the mirage cloak with vault and lotus which nobody uses says everything )., > > Invul should prevent ANY action, unless we are talking about single skill with part of the animation which gives evade. > > Meanwhile PW remains a spammable 1.25 evade and Flanking Strike a spammable 3/4 evade. > Blurred Frenzy doesn't follow the target either, it's the exact same as PW except the longer evade and no stun. > Thief, War, Necro, Ele, Engi on top of my head, all those have options to deal damage on evade. > > I read that as a invuln should prevent any action as longer as it's not my profession. > Classes should be allowed to have 1 skill which gives evade on cd. Thief, because it does not have cds on weapons but also due to his low surv which is mostly composed by dodges, stealth and blind, should be managed somehow. My point is that there are 3 kind of skills * **invul skills which prevent nothing but instant skill uses** ( like warrior shield stance or guardian renewed focus ). These are almost fine, because you trade your dmg for invul, and you can't do nothing unless you want to end them earlier ( nothing but instant skills ). * **Invul which allow you to terminate your target** ( mistform and elixir S ). Those should be simply fixed in order to make em like the previous tier. * **On evade skills**. These are fine, but some are too much ( like blurred frenzy, which lasts 2.5 sec, and it's probably the most convenient filler skill ). Also S/D thief has, eventually if needed, a dodge spam because of flanking strike ( when it does not hit ), but mostly is used as a trade, because the dmg from that build comes from lacerous strike. Eventually, however, it could be toned down. * **Skill which allow you to attack while dodging** > Mirage cloak ( which allow you to use ANY skill while dodging ). Ambush should last 2 seconds and mirage cloak should break if the player decides to attack before its expiration ( like any other class ). Ofc there are DMG on dodge, but i prefer to leave the ambush to mesmers instead to make an extra dmg/effect on dodge and preventing ANY skill like other classes. Tier 2 and 4 should be removed from the game, in order to have 3 possibilities: - Trade dmg for invul - A skill which has part of the animation with Evade - Any other skill which deal dmg, but don't allow you to defend while doing dmg. ps: obviously pistol whip would be nerfed too, even if ( except kamikaze thieves ) i don't see S/P played. But ofc it should be toned down because it's different from flanking + lacerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > Please make that attacking while dodging remove the evade effect ( incrase ofc ambush duration by 1 sec. Give them a choice. ) > > > > > It's currently the only class which can attack while invul every 5 sec ( permavigor because f1-f4, heal and crit ) > > > > > > > > I like it. > > > > Since we're unto it, after you connect lacernous, pistol whip, bound, lotus training, vault you can't evade for 1 sec. > > > > - ^ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What you ask is senseless because different reasons: > > > > > > * Flanking strike is a skill with evade, like warrior's wirlwind. If you connect, the lacerous strike does not have evade on its own. > > > * Pistol whip does not have evade does not follow the target. > > > > > > > The broken one is blurred frenzy, which should be changed too ( same damage, but faster hits in order to lower the evade to 1/2 sec. No more following the target. This will prevent mesmers from using it as a constant spam in order to recover meanwhile endurance, cds and so on. > > > > > > * Vault and lotus training are dodge on are with damage effect, and both are useless in a spvp scenario ( even if you could find some condi thieves at 900-1600 rank ). > > > > > > Classes shouln't be able to perform skills while evading, but a skill with an average cd could have an evade too. > > > > > > Mesmer invulnerability ( as warrior endure pain ) should become a channeling like guardian or warrior ( and so should be the engineer elixir and mist form ). > > > > > > First they should remove those kind of invul, then they can balance the game. > > > > I know it's senseless, it was on purpose to show you that your suggestion is bad. > > Wait, so BF should be a 1/2 evade but PW could remain 1.25sec > > > > There's no difference between attack and defense at once and attack and defense at once. > > > > > BF should be reworked into a 1/2 duration skill. > Probably a flurry attack won't do the deal, but something like a single hit ( good dmg ) 1/2 sec evade on 10/12 sec cd would be fine. > > Mine suggestions are good, unless you don't know what "trade" means in terms of attack and defense ( but reading that you compare the mirage cloak with vault and lotus which nobody uses says everything )., > Invul should prevent ANY action, unless we are talking about single skill with part of the animation which gives evade. > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" : mesmer will have everything if you read my post. It will be just able to make a choice. To cast interrupting his dodge or to wait the end of the dodge, in order to use his dodge to avoid attacks. > > It won't change anything, but the mesmer will be able to get hit while using kills. > Like any other class. And you seem to be missing the point of that being Mirage's unique mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > 20 pages later epicturtle is still trying to act like mesmer is ok > > I'm all for a debate but I really feel like we're just being trolled by this guy It's an aggregate of threads not 20 pages later. And if you bothered scrolling up I admit there are a few issues, but it seems pretty clear you didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > And you seem to be missing the point of that being Mirage's unique mechanic. In fact you will be able to chose. You will have * Ambush. * Possibility to end earlier dodge in order to deal dmg. * Possibility to use ambush after your dodge. This is balanced. Because we have a counter. Currently we don't have a counter vs an evading target which blast. And no, sorry, it's not even closer to lacerous strike and to thief difficulty. Currently mesmer is faceroll, and mirage cloak is a big part of the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Turk.5460" said: > Ah, you are EU. It is probable that you are one of the many who were just not challenging enough and forced a migration from a lot of players over to NA for roaming purposes. Especially since you refer to Consume Plasma as OP - this shows your lack of understanding. No wonder you think Mesmers are still hard countered by Thieves. You must not be very good at playing either if that is how you think. Try roaming a few times, as you are clearly inexperienced with small scale. The fights are a lot more intimate. Excuse me ? Mesmer isnt hardcountered by thief ? I have no idea what u have on wvw and which kind of potato players u met there but in pvp im being destroyed by s/d teefs while they inject steroids (4+ ectos, its not OP? All boons in game for 10s is not op? Ehhhhhh?)... Mmmmm something wrong with me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > 20 pages later epicturtle is still trying to act like mesmer is ok > > > > I'm all for a debate but I really feel like we're just being trolled by this guy > > It's an aggregate of threads not 20 pages later. And if you bothered scrolling up I admit there are a few issues, but it seems pretty clear you didn't. Scroll up through 20 pages? No thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > I'm going to post this in here as well because I feel quite strongly that EM has other options right now rather than the knee-jerk "remove stunbreak" that is being pushed as the "only" solution. > > > > > > > > > > One thing I would like to recap on regarding having stunbreak on dodge, because on this note I do disagree with some fellow mesmers as to it being an issue - in my opinion as a feature this is perfectly fine. Edit - for the record yes I was one of those during pof beta that shared the sentiment that this trait would never make it into live release due to being ridiculously powerful - however over the last 5 months my opinion has changed. As a trait it allows more options for building and choosing other utility skills rather than being forced into the usual Blink/SoM (RIP Decoy), encouraging experimenting with utilities that aren't stunbreaks (in reality we only have Blink, SoM, Decoy, Sand through Glass (which is bad - nobody will waste a slot for that) and Mantra (only useful in wvw group comps)). > > > > > > > > > > It is an active stunbreak just like any other skill requiring one button press. Just as a thought exercise, what if they had put a stunbreak on heal, on a shatter, on a weapon skill or on jaunt... there would be no issue because all those are seen as "skills/abilities". > > > > > > > > > > With the nature of Mirage's dodge it is worth viewing it from the perspective of being just another "skill/ability". ie it is worth considering Mirage as having NO dodge, but instead a "skill" with pseudo ammunition mechanic that provides 1s evade frame among other things. And this skill can be traited to to many things. > > > > > > > > > > The issue is not about having access to stunbreak on the dodge keybind - rather it is about the **frequency** of access to stunbreak due to having it available on **every** dodge, given the fast endurance refill rates. > > > > > > > > > > If this frequency was reduced such that stunbreak access from the dodge keybind would be limited to at most every "x" number of seconds then I believe this would be balanced. > > > > > > > > > > But that would require decoupling the stunbreak cooldown from the dodge "cooldown" - so how to show this on the UI? Use the same white line moving around the skill as the ammunition mechanic uses to show the cooldown on a charge. This white line would move around the endurance bar exactly the same as the ammunition mechanic cooldown UI indicator, allowing the cooldown of stunbreak to be set at whatever is suitable, as well as enabling the mesmer player to know when it is available/off cooldown. They could even change the endurance bar colour when it is on cooldown (ie make it darker or something) and make it flash as it comes off cooldown, or some other effect in addition to the moving line. > > > > > > > > > > Bottom line is I don't mind which route you guys take, whether you remove it, put it on Jaunt or whatever - I just ask that other solutions (and perhaps even more creative solutions that you come up with in house) be considered rather than folding to a seemingly unanimous perspective that in reality isn't. > > > > > > > > > > -------- > > > > > tl;dr: The issue is not about having access to stunbreak on the dodge keybind - rather it is about the **frequency** of access to stunbreak due to having it available on **every** dodge, given the fast endurance refill rates. > > > > > > > > No it is not only the low cd of the stunbreak on dodge that is a problem. It makes mirage only need one button to stunbreak and dodge in the same time during a chrono or warrior for example needs 2 buttons (what makes it slower in reactiontime and also means that the player use 2 different cooldowns and not only one). When you now additionally count in, that a mirage is able to cast during dodge and has a bit longer dodgeframe than he can dodge while breaking the stun and do a counter burst during still evading the stun-follow up from his opponent. Thats why i see a big problem in a stunbreak on the same button as dodge on a class with mirage mechanics. > > > > > > > > That mirage is able to dodge during being stunned without that trait is on the contrary not broken in my view. The mirage only can avoid the follow up (mostly dmg) but still can't use any skill, so he is still taken out of the fight for the whole stunduration and don't negate a stun completely. This is not op just a strong feature of the elite spec. Avoiding the stun in the first place is still more valuable for the mirage than eating the stun and being out of the fight for the whole stunduration during a mirage with elusive mind dont need to care for a stun at all and makes stuns completely useless that way. > > > > > > I disagree with the number of button press or skill cooldown analysis because this isn't really fair to compare across classes. Mirage has no F5 or additional skill mechanic (aside from ambush which is enabled by dodge in the same way that an additional F skill on another class enables new skill usage), and instead it can be considered that dodge has been replaced by an "F5 skill" that happens to be on a short cooldown with built in evade and ammunition recharge (endurance). On that note one could consider stunbreak on celestial avatar/beastmode for example. > > > > > > Yes I can accept and do agree that being able to do anything during the evade frame following breaking a cc effect, allowing uncounterable counter burst isn't ideal because it rewards bad play due to eating the stun in the first place - which is why I also like the idea of converting all hard cc into a self daze with duration identical to the duration of the cc (but daze itself is removed to nothing) - so you break stun and can move but wouldn't be able to use skills to attack until the daze wears off - making EM a purely defensive survival trait that allows the player to move but not attack immediately after breaking stun. > > > > > > However if the decoupled cooldown of the stunbreak was long enough then even with the above I wouldn't consider it to be a big problem given it wouldn't be possible all that frequently. Alternative possibilities could be to inflict self weakness which would limit the ability to counter burst at full value during the evade frame, or use some other means to reduce the ability to output huge damage during that 1 second (ie maybe using a heal could be allowed, but not shatters or weapon skills - not sure how they'd implement this). > > > > Tbh i don't understand your arguments in the first paragraph about the cooldowns. Either i'm stupid or you missunderstood me, i feel your writing don't fit to what i said at all. What i mean is, that every other build than mirage have to press 2 buttons, they need to use a stunbreak (one cooldown) and then still need to press dodge to avoid the follow up (second cooldown), these are 2 button activations instead of one and also 2 cooldowns used instead of one. And this is not a needed mirage feature it is broken. Even more a stunbreak on dodge would be less op on a chrono than on mirage, because mirage can cast during dodge and has longer evade frame. Mirage don't separate between a good or a bad player and not vs a player with good or bad keybinds. It doens't matter how slow or fast a player is. With pressing only one button a bad player is as fast as a good player with using stunbreaking and dodge. Elusive mind makes mirage very noobfriedly and rewards slow reactions in the same way than fast reactions and good keybinds. There is not a single good reason i can imagine why having dodge and stunbreak on one button (like a mini macro) is needed for the mirage spec. mirages has a strong mechnic already without that, this just lower the skill which is needed to be a good mirage. > > Well from my perspective I don't see the problem with 2 button presses vs a streamlined 1 button press just because it has built in evade - especially considering stunbreak utilities with built in evade, stealth, block or even movement. It's still an active stunbreak on a GM trait - if it had less frequent access then it would be fine. We'll just have to disagree on this point. > > Hypothetically if they put an F5 skill for mirage that was stunbreak only - giving you 2 button presses/cooldowns when used in addition with dodge, how is this any different to having it streamlined into dodge? That's what I was trying to get at with my previous statement - ie mirage doesn't have additional mechanics because the dodge is the new "skill". As to whether the core function of this new "skill" is balanced for the state of the game (ie being able to put evade frames wherever you want) - that's a different matter. Yes we disagree in this point, i'm fine with that. And yes i think giving Mirage a F5 what is a stunbreak instead have it on the same button like dodge (like a mini macro so even bad and slow player are fast with using both skills, stunbreak and dodge) would ofc make much of a difference for the reasons i mentioned but we don't agree with. Your idea with turning the stun or other cc into a daze to make the mesmer be able to move but not attack is probably not able to implement by anet. It would solve some of the problems but techically impossible i think. I don't answer to @"Turk.5460" and @"Odik.4587" anymore because it makes no sense at all. 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EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > And you seem to be missing the point of that being Mirage's unique mechanic. > > In fact you will be able to chose. > > You will have > > * Ambush. > * Possibility to end earlier dodge in order to deal dmg. > * Possibility to use ambush after your dodge. > > This is balanced. > Because we have a counter. > > Currently we don't have a counter vs an evading target which blast. > > And no, sorry, it's not even closer to lacerous strike and to thief difficulty. > Currently mesmer is faceroll, and mirage cloak is a big part of the problem. Or, now this is just a suggestion, be patient and bait the ambush then attack, y'know use some tactics. Also, warriors shield stance isn't an invuln, it's just a block. And you're neglecting to remember that Mirage Cloak can't just be performed infinitely, Ambushes are essentially ammo skills with a 10 second recharge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > 20 pages later epicturtle is still trying to act like mesmer is ok > > > > > > I'm all for a debate but I really feel like we're just being trolled by this guy > > > > It's an aggregate of threads not 20 pages later. And if you bothered scrolling up I admit there are a few issues, but it seems pretty clear you didn't. > > Scroll up through 20 pages? No thanks It's towards the middle of the last page. But I guess your crusade against me is more important than being reasonable in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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