Odik.4587 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > Typical complaint about superman mesmer that hack the game and use all trait lines possible and 2 elite specs... > > Look at you! Take your first course in trolling now? > > Seriously though, I have fought shatter mirages, shatter chronos, phantasm spam chronos, and every other build of mesmer out there. Their damage is at my level as a holosmith, and typically their disengage and/or tankiness is flabbergasting. Is there anything this class can't do? Druid still wins that ,condis still burns them alive ...blablabla ... So what that you have fough them and found every build excel in everything and took exaggeration to new levels ,which have been done before you ,at least they stopped and you continue :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > @"Faux Play.6104" said: > > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far. > > > > > > > > > > > > just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time. > > > > > > > > > > That would work too. It would add a little counterplay to the game > > > > > > > > That would butcher the mechanics though.... How does 1 daze, distort or mindwrack for some extra AoE dps on rezzers mid stomp? > > > > If you were rezzing in a bit of AoE or cleave, how would you distort yourself from that damage? > > > > > > > > (at this point the OP should just rename this thread to "Mesmer balance discussions", I know this thread was meant to be about clone spam but at this stage it seems more of a healthy mesmer discussion than the typical whinge threads) > > > > > > It adds counterplay though. It would be a really good change. 1s cast on all F abilities for mesmer. It still leaves them strong but just means a mesmer had to invest a little more time using them. And people can avoid them easier adding to counter play > > > > How is that counter play? That's butchering the mechanics to a point where it's worthless, you/we need that instacast effect on the Daze/Distortions for purposes like stomping/rezzing. > > > > Mind wrack and cry of frustration could be another story, but the amount of times I personally rely on daze/distortions instacast feature to either save someone else or stomp someone is more than I could ever count.. Like stomping a Thief for instance, they seem to port at the last second so you can't blink mid stomp to where they did so casting Daze on them near the end of the channel with 2+ illusions spread out will disrupt them from going anywhere. (good thieves don't waste time and don't usually make the stomp difficult, but majority seem to port, then stealth and put themselves out of play for another 15-20s, so this is just a generalization) > > > > There's also the defense side of things too, when a Thief hits you with bas venom ready to burst you, how would you counter play that without distortion? > > > > (I'm aware of Em/Mirage but I'm generalizing for all 3 specs.) > > It is counter play because insta-cast skills that have massive impact on the game are terrible from a balance and gameplay perspective. No point arguing about it, it is a fact. You can't state your opinion as fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > @"Faux Play.6104" said: > > > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time. > > > > > > > > > > > > That would work too. It would add a little counterplay to the game > > > > > > > > > > That would butcher the mechanics though.... How does 1 daze, distort or mindwrack for some extra AoE dps on rezzers mid stomp? > > > > > If you were rezzing in a bit of AoE or cleave, how would you distort yourself from that damage? > > > > > > > > > > (at this point the OP should just rename this thread to "Mesmer balance discussions", I know this thread was meant to be about clone spam but at this stage it seems more of a healthy mesmer discussion than the typical whinge threads) > > > > > > > > It adds counterplay though. It would be a really good change. 1s cast on all F abilities for mesmer. It still leaves them strong but just means a mesmer had to invest a little more time using them. And people can avoid them easier adding to counter play > > > > > > How is that counter play? That's butchering the mechanics to a point where it's worthless, you/we need that instacast effect on the Daze/Distortions for purposes like stomping/rezzing. > > > > > > Mind wrack and cry of frustration could be another story, but the amount of times I personally rely on daze/distortions instacast feature to either save someone else or stomp someone is more than I could ever count.. Like stomping a Thief for instance, they seem to port at the last second so you can't blink mid stomp to where they did so casting Daze on them near the end of the channel with 2+ illusions spread out will disrupt them from going anywhere. (good thieves don't waste time and don't usually make the stomp difficult, but majority seem to port, then stealth and put themselves out of play for another 15-20s, so this is just a generalization) > > > > > > There's also the defense side of things too, when a Thief hits you with bas venom ready to burst you, how would you counter play that without distortion? > > > > > > (I'm aware of Em/Mirage but I'm generalizing for all 3 specs.) > > > > It is counter play because insta-cast skills that have massive impact on the game are terrible from a balance and gameplay perspective. No point arguing about it, it is a fact. > > You can't state your opinion as fact. Instant cast skills aren't good gameplay, particularly if they're offensive instant casts that do a lot of damage. I don't think most people would argue that instant casts are good gameplay. > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > > > Typical complaint about superman mesmer that hack the game and use all trait lines possible and 2 elite specs... > > > > Look at you! Take your first course in trolling now? > > > > Seriously though, I have fought shatter mirages, shatter chronos, phantasm spam chronos, and every other build of mesmer out there. Their damage is at my level as a holosmith, and typically their disengage and/or tankiness is flabbergasting. Is there anything this class can't do? > > Druid still wins that ,condis still burns them alive ...blablabla ... > So what that you have fough them and found every build excel in everything and took exaggeration to new levels ,which have been done before you ,at least they stopped and you continue :) Are you going to actually address any of my points, or just scream "L2P" more? I speak from experience when I say that mesmers are dang overpowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > > @"Faux Play.6104" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would work too. It would add a little counterplay to the game > > > > > > > > > > > > That would butcher the mechanics though.... How does 1 daze, distort or mindwrack for some extra AoE dps on rezzers mid stomp? > > > > > > If you were rezzing in a bit of AoE or cleave, how would you distort yourself from that damage? > > > > > > > > > > > > (at this point the OP should just rename this thread to "Mesmer balance discussions", I know this thread was meant to be about clone spam but at this stage it seems more of a healthy mesmer discussion than the typical whinge threads) > > > > > > > > > > It adds counterplay though. It would be a really good change. 1s cast on all F abilities for mesmer. It still leaves them strong but just means a mesmer had to invest a little more time using them. And people can avoid them easier adding to counter play > > > > > > > > How is that counter play? That's butchering the mechanics to a point where it's worthless, you/we need that instacast effect on the Daze/Distortions for purposes like stomping/rezzing. > > > > > > > > Mind wrack and cry of frustration could be another story, but the amount of times I personally rely on daze/distortions instacast feature to either save someone else or stomp someone is more than I could ever count.. Like stomping a Thief for instance, they seem to port at the last second so you can't blink mid stomp to where they did so casting Daze on them near the end of the channel with 2+ illusions spread out will disrupt them from going anywhere. (good thieves don't waste time and don't usually make the stomp difficult, but majority seem to port, then stealth and put themselves out of play for another 15-20s, so this is just a generalization) > > > > > > > > There's also the defense side of things too, when a Thief hits you with bas venom ready to burst you, how would you counter play that without distortion? > > > > > > > > (I'm aware of Em/Mirage but I'm generalizing for all 3 specs.) > > > > > > It is counter play because insta-cast skills that have massive impact on the game are terrible from a balance and gameplay perspective. No point arguing about it, it is a fact. > > > > You can't state your opinion as fact. > > Instant cast skills aren't good gameplay, particularly if they're offensive instant casts that do a lot of damage. I don't think most people would argue that instant casts are good gameplay. > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > > > > > Typical complaint about superman mesmer that hack the game and use all trait lines possible and 2 elite specs... > > > > > > Look at you! Take your first course in trolling now? > > > > > > Seriously though, I have fought shatter mirages, shatter chronos, phantasm spam chronos, and every other build of mesmer out there. Their damage is at my level as a holosmith, and typically their disengage and/or tankiness is flabbergasting. Is there anything this class can't do? > > > > Druid still wins that ,condis still burns them alive ...blablabla ... > > So what that you have fough them and found every build excel in everything and took exaggeration to new levels ,which have been done before you ,at least they stopped and you continue :) > > Are you going to actually address any of my points, or just scream "L2P" more? I speak from experience when I say that mesmers are dang overpowered. Well my view isn't limited to Mesmer, I also think of Scepter Elementalist and things like every Cantrip and Arcane skill + attunement swapping + Magnetic Barriers and some shouts, Virtues on Core Guard along with meditation skills, Steal on Thief and also Blinding Powder + Shadow step and some others like Signets and Venoms, Elixir S on Engie and so on.... **Your solution to fix Mesmer is to break most other classes** and you're right, I would never have even thought people would argue this since these are mechanics that have been in the game since I don't know, game release? That's like going to Pizza Hut and complaining to the manager that the staff won't make you a Big Mac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > > @"Faux Play.6104" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would work too. It would add a little counterplay to the game > > > > > > > > > > > > That would butcher the mechanics though.... How does 1 daze, distort or mindwrack for some extra AoE dps on rezzers mid stomp? > > > > > > If you were rezzing in a bit of AoE or cleave, how would you distort yourself from that damage? > > > > > > > > > > > > (at this point the OP should just rename this thread to "Mesmer balance discussions", I know this thread was meant to be about clone spam but at this stage it seems more of a healthy mesmer discussion than the typical whinge threads) > > > > > > > > > > It adds counterplay though. It would be a really good change. 1s cast on all F abilities for mesmer. It still leaves them strong but just means a mesmer had to invest a little more time using them. And people can avoid them easier adding to counter play > > > > > > > > How is that counter play? That's butchering the mechanics to a point where it's worthless, you/we need that instacast effect on the Daze/Distortions for purposes like stomping/rezzing. > > > > > > > > Mind wrack and cry of frustration could be another story, but the amount of times I personally rely on daze/distortions instacast feature to either save someone else or stomp someone is more than I could ever count.. Like stomping a Thief for instance, they seem to port at the last second so you can't blink mid stomp to where they did so casting Daze on them near the end of the channel with 2+ illusions spread out will disrupt them from going anywhere. (good thieves don't waste time and don't usually make the stomp difficult, but majority seem to port, then stealth and put themselves out of play for another 15-20s, so this is just a generalization) > > > > > > > > There's also the defense side of things too, when a Thief hits you with bas venom ready to burst you, how would you counter play that without distortion? > > > > > > > > (I'm aware of Em/Mirage but I'm generalizing for all 3 specs.) > > > > > > It is counter play because insta-cast skills that have massive impact on the game are terrible from a balance and gameplay perspective. No point arguing about it, it is a fact. > > > > You can't state your opinion as fact. > > Instant cast skills aren't good gameplay, particularly if they're offensive instant casts that do a lot of damage. I don't think most people would argue that instant casts are good gameplay. > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > > > > > Typical complaint about superman mesmer that hack the game and use all trait lines possible and 2 elite specs... > > > > > > Look at you! Take your first course in trolling now? > > > > > > Seriously though, I have fought shatter mirages, shatter chronos, phantasm spam chronos, and every other build of mesmer out there. Their damage is at my level as a holosmith, and typically their disengage and/or tankiness is flabbergasting. Is there anything this class can't do? > > > > Druid still wins that ,condis still burns them alive ...blablabla ... > > So what that you have fough them and found every build excel in everything and took exaggeration to new levels ,which have been done before you ,at least they stopped and you continue :) > > Are you going to actually address any of my points, or just scream "L2P" more? I speak from experience when I say that mesmers are dang overpowered. In mesmers case shatters are instant cast, but not instant effect, as they have to run towards the target. Even in melee range you still see the animation. The only exceptions are f4-5. Mantra of Distraction is instant cast because it has to be due to the fact not all skills have long, obvious animations to interupt unlike in GW1. And those aren’t going to change because the entire skill system would have to be overhauled and that’s not going to happen. I can’t remember over classes instant skills but it doesn’t matter. No one is denying that Mesmer is strong. It is, however, the issue is that everyone seems to want the class as a whole to receive the Smiters Boon treatment because they don’t like the class. That’s wrong and completely uncalled for. I’ve listed numerous changes that would benefit everyone and still have the class competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Faux Play.6104" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would work too. It would add a little counterplay to the game > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would butcher the mechanics though.... How does 1 daze, distort or mindwrack for some extra AoE dps on rezzers mid stomp? > > > > > > > If you were rezzing in a bit of AoE or cleave, how would you distort yourself from that damage? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (at this point the OP should just rename this thread to "Mesmer balance discussions", I know this thread was meant to be about clone spam but at this stage it seems more of a healthy mesmer discussion than the typical whinge threads) > > > > > > > > > > > > It adds counterplay though. It would be a really good change. 1s cast on all F abilities for mesmer. It still leaves them strong but just means a mesmer had to invest a little more time using them. And people can avoid them easier adding to counter play > > > > > > > > > > How is that counter play? That's butchering the mechanics to a point where it's worthless, you/we need that instacast effect on the Daze/Distortions for purposes like stomping/rezzing. > > > > > > > > > > Mind wrack and cry of frustration could be another story, but the amount of times I personally rely on daze/distortions instacast feature to either save someone else or stomp someone is more than I could ever count.. Like stomping a Thief for instance, they seem to port at the last second so you can't blink mid stomp to where they did so casting Daze on them near the end of the channel with 2+ illusions spread out will disrupt them from going anywhere. (good thieves don't waste time and don't usually make the stomp difficult, but majority seem to port, then stealth and put themselves out of play for another 15-20s, so this is just a generalization) > > > > > > > > > > There's also the defense side of things too, when a Thief hits you with bas venom ready to burst you, how would you counter play that without distortion? > > > > > > > > > > (I'm aware of Em/Mirage but I'm generalizing for all 3 specs.) > > > > > > > > It is counter play because insta-cast skills that have massive impact on the game are terrible from a balance and gameplay perspective. No point arguing about it, it is a fact. > > > > > > You can't state your opinion as fact. > > > > Instant cast skills aren't good gameplay, particularly if they're offensive instant casts that do a lot of damage. I don't think most people would argue that instant casts are good gameplay. > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > > > > > > > Typical complaint about superman mesmer that hack the game and use all trait lines possible and 2 elite specs... > > > > > > > > Look at you! Take your first course in trolling now? > > > > > > > > Seriously though, I have fought shatter mirages, shatter chronos, phantasm spam chronos, and every other build of mesmer out there. Their damage is at my level as a holosmith, and typically their disengage and/or tankiness is flabbergasting. Is there anything this class can't do? > > > > > > Druid still wins that ,condis still burns them alive ...blablabla ... > > > So what that you have fough them and found every build excel in everything and took exaggeration to new levels ,which have been done before you ,at least they stopped and you continue :) > > > > Are you going to actually address any of my points, or just scream "L2P" more? I speak from experience when I say that mesmers are dang overpowered. > > Well my view isn't limited to Mesmer, I also think of Scepter Elementalist and things like every Cantrip and Arcane skill + attunement swapping + Magnetic Barriers and some shouts, Virtues on Core Guard along with meditation skills, Steal on Thief and also Blinding Powder + Shadow step and some others like Signets and Venoms, Elixir S on Engie and so on.... > > **Your solution to fix Mesmer is to break most other classes** and you're right, I would never have even thought people would argue this since these are mechanics that have been in the game since I don't know, game release? That's like going to Pizza Hut and complaining to the manager that the staff won't make you a Big Mac. You seem to have misread what I was saying. I was saying that **major damage** from instant casts is not good gameplay -- defensive instant casts are a different beast entirely. Skills like arcane blast definitely deserve to be nerfed as well, it's not just mesmers. I am not a fan of the instant casts spewing from the weaver meta atm. Note: I said **major** damage. It's ok for something like [surprise shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Surprise_Shot_(engineer_skill) "surprise shot") or [mug](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mug "mug") to exist, because in and of itself, it's not a large threat without the right traits (I don't like static shot, but that's an engineer-specific issue), and it only has one use with a fair cooldown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinoris.2178 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 I know what we really need. Let's make scourge be able to stack 25 Confusion and give them 3k armor base stat. I think that fixes the problems ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Faux Play.6104" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would work too. It would add a little counterplay to the game > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would butcher the mechanics though.... How does 1 daze, distort or mindwrack for some extra AoE dps on rezzers mid stomp? > > > > > > > > If you were rezzing in a bit of AoE or cleave, how would you distort yourself from that damage? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (at this point the OP should just rename this thread to "Mesmer balance discussions", I know this thread was meant to be about clone spam but at this stage it seems more of a healthy mesmer discussion than the typical whinge threads) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It adds counterplay though. It would be a really good change. 1s cast on all F abilities for mesmer. It still leaves them strong but just means a mesmer had to invest a little more time using them. And people can avoid them easier adding to counter play > > > > > > > > > > > > How is that counter play? That's butchering the mechanics to a point where it's worthless, you/we need that instacast effect on the Daze/Distortions for purposes like stomping/rezzing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mind wrack and cry of frustration could be another story, but the amount of times I personally rely on daze/distortions instacast feature to either save someone else or stomp someone is more than I could ever count.. Like stomping a Thief for instance, they seem to port at the last second so you can't blink mid stomp to where they did so casting Daze on them near the end of the channel with 2+ illusions spread out will disrupt them from going anywhere. (good thieves don't waste time and don't usually make the stomp difficult, but majority seem to port, then stealth and put themselves out of play for another 15-20s, so this is just a generalization) > > > > > > > > > > > > There's also the defense side of things too, when a Thief hits you with bas venom ready to burst you, how would you counter play that without distortion? > > > > > > > > > > > > (I'm aware of Em/Mirage but I'm generalizing for all 3 specs.) > > > > > > > > > > It is counter play because insta-cast skills that have massive impact on the game are terrible from a balance and gameplay perspective. No point arguing about it, it is a fact. > > > > > > > > You can't state your opinion as fact. > > > > > > Instant cast skills aren't good gameplay, particularly if they're offensive instant casts that do a lot of damage. I don't think most people would argue that instant casts are good gameplay. > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > > > > > > > > > Typical complaint about superman mesmer that hack the game and use all trait lines possible and 2 elite specs... > > > > > > > > > > Look at you! Take your first course in trolling now? > > > > > > > > > > Seriously though, I have fought shatter mirages, shatter chronos, phantasm spam chronos, and every other build of mesmer out there. Their damage is at my level as a holosmith, and typically their disengage and/or tankiness is flabbergasting. Is there anything this class can't do? > > > > > > > > Druid still wins that ,condis still burns them alive ...blablabla ... > > > > So what that you have fough them and found every build excel in everything and took exaggeration to new levels ,which have been done before you ,at least they stopped and you continue :) > > > > > > Are you going to actually address any of my points, or just scream "L2P" more? I speak from experience when I say that mesmers are dang overpowered. > > > > Well my view isn't limited to Mesmer, I also think of Scepter Elementalist and things like every Cantrip and Arcane skill + attunement swapping + Magnetic Barriers and some shouts, Virtues on Core Guard along with meditation skills, Steal on Thief and also Blinding Powder + Shadow step and some others like Signets and Venoms, Elixir S on Engie and so on.... > > > > **Your solution to fix Mesmer is to break most other classes** and you're right, I would never have even thought people would argue this since these are mechanics that have been in the game since I don't know, game release? That's like going to Pizza Hut and complaining to the manager that the staff won't make you a Big Mac. > > You seem to have misread what I was saying. I was saying that **major damage** from instant casts is not good gameplay -- defensive instant casts are a different beast entirely. Skills like arcane blast definitely deserve to be nerfed as well, it's not just mesmers. I am not a fan of the instant casts spewing from the weaver meta atm. > > Note: I said **major** damage. It's ok for something like [surprise shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Surprise_Shot_(engineer_skill) "surprise shot") or [mug](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mug "mug") to exist, because in and of itself, it's not a large threat without the right traits (I don't like static shot, but that's an engineer-specific issue), and it only has one use with a fair cooldown. Why not just tone down damage if damage is the issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Faux Play.6104" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would work too. It would add a little counterplay to the game > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would butcher the mechanics though.... How does 1 daze, distort or mindwrack for some extra AoE dps on rezzers mid stomp? > > > > > > > > > If you were rezzing in a bit of AoE or cleave, how would you distort yourself from that damage? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (at this point the OP should just rename this thread to "Mesmer balance discussions", I know this thread was meant to be about clone spam but at this stage it seems more of a healthy mesmer discussion than the typical whinge threads) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It adds counterplay though. It would be a really good change. 1s cast on all F abilities for mesmer. It still leaves them strong but just means a mesmer had to invest a little more time using them. And people can avoid them easier adding to counter play > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is that counter play? That's butchering the mechanics to a point where it's worthless, you/we need that instacast effect on the Daze/Distortions for purposes like stomping/rezzing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mind wrack and cry of frustration could be another story, but the amount of times I personally rely on daze/distortions instacast feature to either save someone else or stomp someone is more than I could ever count.. Like stomping a Thief for instance, they seem to port at the last second so you can't blink mid stomp to where they did so casting Daze on them near the end of the channel with 2+ illusions spread out will disrupt them from going anywhere. (good thieves don't waste time and don't usually make the stomp difficult, but majority seem to port, then stealth and put themselves out of play for another 15-20s, so this is just a generalization) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's also the defense side of things too, when a Thief hits you with bas venom ready to burst you, how would you counter play that without distortion? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (I'm aware of Em/Mirage but I'm generalizing for all 3 specs.) > > > > > > > > > > > > It is counter play because insta-cast skills that have massive impact on the game are terrible from a balance and gameplay perspective. No point arguing about it, it is a fact. > > > > > > > > > > You can't state your opinion as fact. > > > > > > > > Instant cast skills aren't good gameplay, particularly if they're offensive instant casts that do a lot of damage. I don't think most people would argue that instant casts are good gameplay. > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > > > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typical complaint about superman mesmer that hack the game and use all trait lines possible and 2 elite specs... > > > > > > > > > > > > Look at you! Take your first course in trolling now? > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously though, I have fought shatter mirages, shatter chronos, phantasm spam chronos, and every other build of mesmer out there. Their damage is at my level as a holosmith, and typically their disengage and/or tankiness is flabbergasting. Is there anything this class can't do? > > > > > > > > > > Druid still wins that ,condis still burns them alive ...blablabla ... > > > > > So what that you have fough them and found every build excel in everything and took exaggeration to new levels ,which have been done before you ,at least they stopped and you continue :) > > > > > > > > Are you going to actually address any of my points, or just scream "L2P" more? I speak from experience when I say that mesmers are dang overpowered. > > > > > > Well my view isn't limited to Mesmer, I also think of Scepter Elementalist and things like every Cantrip and Arcane skill + attunement swapping + Magnetic Barriers and some shouts, Virtues on Core Guard along with meditation skills, Steal on Thief and also Blinding Powder + Shadow step and some others like Signets and Venoms, Elixir S on Engie and so on.... > > > > > > **Your solution to fix Mesmer is to break most other classes** and you're right, I would never have even thought people would argue this since these are mechanics that have been in the game since I don't know, game release? That's like going to Pizza Hut and complaining to the manager that the staff won't make you a Big Mac. > > > > You seem to have misread what I was saying. I was saying that **major damage** from instant casts is not good gameplay -- defensive instant casts are a different beast entirely. Skills like arcane blast definitely deserve to be nerfed as well, it's not just mesmers. I am not a fan of the instant casts spewing from the weaver meta atm. > > > > Note: I said **major** damage. It's ok for something like [surprise shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Surprise_Shot_(engineer_skill) "surprise shot") or [mug](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mug "mug") to exist, because in and of itself, it's not a large threat without the right traits (I don't like static shot, but that's an engineer-specific issue), and it only has one use with a fair cooldown. > > Why not just tone down damage if damage is the issue? The reason instant casts in particular are a problem for balance is because there's no real good way to counter them. If we're talking about instant cast damage, sure, by all means tone it down or increase the cooldowns, but other skills with casting times don't necessarily need a blanket nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 Mesmer....play mesmer..it's what the gw universe wants you to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneira.7691 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > In mesmers case shatters are instant cast, but not instant effect, as they have to run towards the target. Even in melee range you still see the animation. The only exceptions are f4-5. > Mantra of Distraction is instant cast because it has to be due to the fact not all skills have long, obvious animations to interupt unlike in GW1. And those aren’t going to change because the entire skill system would have to be overhauled and that’s not going to happen. I can’t remember over classes instant skills but it doesn’t matter. > > No one is denying that Mesmer is strong. It is, however, the issue is that everyone seems to want the class as a whole to receive the Smiters Boon treatment because they don’t like the class. That’s wrong and completely uncalled for. I’ve listed numerous changes that would benefit everyone and still have the class competitive. Yep. Your last remark pretty much sums it up. You can explain things until you're blue in the face and it won't matter to this gang of posters. They don't consider the difference between insta-casting a shatter and the fact that the illusions have to run towards the target, giving time for the target to react. They just want the class gutted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi.6027 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. "Warrior Tankyness" is hyperbole, Mesmer cannot stand in something face and take hits, nor does it have the same recovery and sustain. It does have some aegis procs on top of the normal kit if chaos, but that is fairly simple to play around if you don't just waste your cooldowns. They do not have the same engage/disengage as thief, nor do they have as reliable ganking presuming you mean in stealth approach. Thief can engage through walls with no cast time, thief can disengage back at a drop of a hat multiple times in the same fight. Mesmer just has portal, and maybe some okay use with illusionary leap which is counter by cleave and awkward since it swaps with a clone that is moving towards the target. Maybe a few Mirage skills are neat for target dropping to escape, but virtually none of these are ran since other skills are far more beneficial in conquest. Also in terms of disengage, thief can stealth and remain there. Mes does not have this luxury, if mes is in a bad spot on most of their cooldowns; best they can do is portal out. As for Holo Smith level damage...? Possibly if you mean the one trick pony spec that stuns ports to you and blows you up. Yeah okay, maybe. But that is a single target hit with not much to follow up beyond the normal amount of defensive cooldowns most other classes have. Thief by comparison has much more access to survivability or disengage, especially if the mesmer used blink to land that hit. Does the damage compare to the two other classes? Probably, but Holo and Thief are far safer and not useless after one or two well read doges depending on the build. Even if Mesmer did 5k more damage, if it's going to one shot a squishy anyways, and leave a bruiser asking for more. Keep in mind Mesmer unlike Holo also has fairly limited AoE, it can cleave a little sure, but not true AoE, and it's damage sources on any build that isn't the one hit wonder come from a ramp up of illusions which are killable. Even if it did equal or more damage, that is still more fiddly ramp, for less range output. We are talking about a class that can be bunked and countered 1v1, isn't usually considered optimal to stack on teams, and the historic cries just ring the same as always other than being useful outside of portal and moa. Portal may define conquest and I can get arguments based on portal, but the difficulty of playing around a memser is as on par with thief. You said you've fought them all, but just as equally have there been players coached or learnt what they were fighting and started to come out on top. That suggests a lot more evidence to learning to play around something that has been fairly recently changed and is harder to grasp how to fight. If you are a holomain you really shouldn't complain about mesmers since you have every tool you need to fight it if you stay a little patient and pressure when you need to. Beyond that still have the options that hard counter a few of the current popular mesmer builds, but it's only to mesmer's credit that very few run them. If people actually started running them, mes would be pushed out of meta again and people would probably cry about something else. (But then still also probably cry about mesmer even if irrelevant.) If you want to learn mesmer, roll one and duel plat 3 or higher Warriors, Rangers, and Holos. That will give you the best example of their strengths and weaknesses... Maybe scourge too? Mostly cuz it's fun on both sides. =b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordrosicky.5813 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > @"Faux Play.6104" said: > > > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time. > > > > > > > > > > > > That would work too. It would add a little counterplay to the game > > > > > > > > > > That would butcher the mechanics though.... How does 1 daze, distort or mindwrack for some extra AoE dps on rezzers mid stomp? > > > > > If you were rezzing in a bit of AoE or cleave, how would you distort yourself from that damage? > > > > > > > > > > (at this point the OP should just rename this thread to "Mesmer balance discussions", I know this thread was meant to be about clone spam but at this stage it seems more of a healthy mesmer discussion than the typical whinge threads) > > > > > > > > It adds counterplay though. It would be a really good change. 1s cast on all F abilities for mesmer. It still leaves them strong but just means a mesmer had to invest a little more time using them. And people can avoid them easier adding to counter play > > > > > > How is that counter play? That's butchering the mechanics to a point where it's worthless, you/we need that instacast effect on the Daze/Distortions for purposes like stomping/rezzing. > > > > > > Mind wrack and cry of frustration could be another story, but the amount of times I personally rely on daze/distortions instacast feature to either save someone else or stomp someone is more than I could ever count.. Like stomping a Thief for instance, they seem to port at the last second so you can't blink mid stomp to where they did so casting Daze on them near the end of the channel with 2+ illusions spread out will disrupt them from going anywhere. (good thieves don't waste time and don't usually make the stomp difficult, but majority seem to port, then stealth and put themselves out of play for another 15-20s, so this is just a generalization) > > > > > > There's also the defense side of things too, when a Thief hits you with bas venom ready to burst you, how would you counter play that without distortion? > > > > > > (I'm aware of Em/Mirage but I'm generalizing for all 3 specs.) > > > > It is counter play because insta-cast skills that have massive impact on the game are terrible from a balance and gameplay perspective. No point arguing about it, it is a fact. > > What are you talking about? You say this as if it's some sort of universal truth. What is the point of an interrupt with a cast time? Some abilities are supposed to be instant. Do I really have to point this out? Stun spells/interrupt spells in particular should not be insta-cast. Necro staff mark 5 is balanced because of the large cast time. You have to anticipate what is to come and use it. Mesmer F abilites should have cast times to add counterplay. This is a simple concept. counter-play is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > > @"Faux Play.6104" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would work too. It would add a little counterplay to the game > > > > > > > > > > > > That would butcher the mechanics though.... How does 1 daze, distort or mindwrack for some extra AoE dps on rezzers mid stomp? > > > > > > If you were rezzing in a bit of AoE or cleave, how would you distort yourself from that damage? > > > > > > > > > > > > (at this point the OP should just rename this thread to "Mesmer balance discussions", I know this thread was meant to be about clone spam but at this stage it seems more of a healthy mesmer discussion than the typical whinge threads) > > > > > > > > > > It adds counterplay though. It would be a really good change. 1s cast on all F abilities for mesmer. It still leaves them strong but just means a mesmer had to invest a little more time using them. And people can avoid them easier adding to counter play > > > > > > > > How is that counter play? That's butchering the mechanics to a point where it's worthless, you/we need that instacast effect on the Daze/Distortions for purposes like stomping/rezzing. > > > > > > > > Mind wrack and cry of frustration could be another story, but the amount of times I personally rely on daze/distortions instacast feature to either save someone else or stomp someone is more than I could ever count.. Like stomping a Thief for instance, they seem to port at the last second so you can't blink mid stomp to where they did so casting Daze on them near the end of the channel with 2+ illusions spread out will disrupt them from going anywhere. (good thieves don't waste time and don't usually make the stomp difficult, but majority seem to port, then stealth and put themselves out of play for another 15-20s, so this is just a generalization) > > > > > > > > There's also the defense side of things too, when a Thief hits you with bas venom ready to burst you, how would you counter play that without distortion? > > > > > > > > (I'm aware of Em/Mirage but I'm generalizing for all 3 specs.) > > > > > > It is counter play because insta-cast skills that have massive impact on the game are terrible from a balance and gameplay perspective. No point arguing about it, it is a fact. > > > > What are you talking about? You say this as if it's some sort of universal truth. What is the point of an interrupt with a cast time? Some abilities are supposed to be instant. Do I really have to point this out? > > Stun spells/interrupt spells in particular should not be insta-cast. Necro staff mark 5 is balanced because of the large cast time. You have to anticipate what is to come and use it. Mesmer F abilites should have cast times to add counterplay. This is a simple concept. counter-play is important. They need to be instacast... What's the point of a 1s cast time to disrupt someone using something with a 1s cast time? Only way to successfully disrupt a skill would be to use your disrupt before they use their skills, which means it's useless unless you're psychic. Instacast is the counterplay but apparently we have very different opinions as to what is a "simple concept". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 To the people who are saying that mesmer isn't completely overpowered, I'd like to see how your opinion changes after you 1v1 one of the best Mirages in game. Another way to tell it's broken is the fact that many teams in the monthly ran 2-3 Mirages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > To the people who are saying that mesmer isn't completely overpowered, I'd like to see how your opinion changes after you 1v1 one of the best Mirages in game. > > Another way to tell it's broken is the fact that many teams in the monthly ran 2-3 Mirages. What supposed to change if you would be beaten by clearly a better player ? Seems like its your case >I also play it regulary and as I said 9 out of 10 teams play fb+scourge. in today's mAT-Quarter/Semi/Finals there wasn't a single team playing duable or tripple mesmer. but nearly every team played fb+scourge By Dominik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > To the people who are saying that mesmer isn't completely overpowered, I'd like to see how your opinion changes after you 1v1 one of the best Mirages in game. > > > > Another way to tell it's broken is the fact that many teams in the monthly ran 2-3 Mirages. > > What supposed to change if you would be beaten by clearly a better player ? Seems like its your case To show the people that are saying, "Mesmer _shouldn't_ be nerfed extremely hard" that the skill ceiling for this class is in the stratosphere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoopop.5630 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > In mesmers case shatters are instant cast, but not instant effect, as they have to run towards the target. Even in melee range you still see the animation. The only exceptions are f4-5. > > Mantra of Distraction is instant cast because it has to be due to the fact not all skills have long, obvious animations to interupt unlike in GW1. And those aren’t going to change because the entire skill system would have to be overhauled and that’s not going to happen. I can’t remember over classes instant skills but it doesn’t matter. > > > > No one is denying that Mesmer is strong. It is, however, the issue is that everyone seems to want the class as a whole to receive the Smiters Boon treatment because they don’t like the class. That’s wrong and completely uncalled for. I’ve listed numerous changes that would benefit everyone and still have the class competitive. > > Yep. Your last remark pretty much sums it up. > > You can explain things until you're blue in the face and it won't matter to this gang of posters. They don't consider the difference between insta-casting a shatter and the fact that the illusions have to run towards the target, giving time for the target to react. They just want the class gutted. are we ignoring the fact that they get super speed when shattered? I'm sorry i forgot this traitline wasn't around anymore..... oh wait, it's still around.............thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"zoopop.5630" said: > > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > In mesmers case shatters are instant cast, but not instant effect, as they have to run towards the target. Even in melee range you still see the animation. The only exceptions are f4-5. > > > Mantra of Distraction is instant cast because it has to be due to the fact not all skills have long, obvious animations to interupt unlike in GW1. And those aren’t going to change because the entire skill system would have to be overhauled and that’s not going to happen. I can’t remember over classes instant skills but it doesn’t matter. > > > > > > No one is denying that Mesmer is strong. It is, however, the issue is that everyone seems to want the class as a whole to receive the Smiters Boon treatment because they don’t like the class. That’s wrong and completely uncalled for. I’ve listed numerous changes that would benefit everyone and still have the class competitive. > > > > Yep. Your last remark pretty much sums it up. > > > > You can explain things until you're blue in the face and it won't matter to this gang of posters. They don't consider the difference between insta-casting a shatter and the fact that the illusions have to run towards the target, giving time for the target to react. They just want the class gutted. > > are we ignoring the fact that they get super speed when shattered? I'm sorry i forgot this traitline wasn't around anymore..... oh wait, it's still around.............thanks. On one trait line that happens to be an elite spec AND it’s still easy to dodge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"zoopop.5630" said: > > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > In mesmers case shatters are instant cast, but not instant effect, as they have to run towards the target. Even in melee range you still see the animation. The only exceptions are f4-5. > > > Mantra of Distraction is instant cast because it has to be due to the fact not all skills have long, obvious animations to interupt unlike in GW1. And those aren’t going to change because the entire skill system would have to be overhauled and that’s not going to happen. I can’t remember over classes instant skills but it doesn’t matter. > > > > > > No one is denying that Mesmer is strong. It is, however, the issue is that everyone seems to want the class as a whole to receive the Smiters Boon treatment because they don’t like the class. That’s wrong and completely uncalled for. I’ve listed numerous changes that would benefit everyone and still have the class competitive. > > > > Yep. Your last remark pretty much sums it up. > > > > You can explain things until you're blue in the face and it won't matter to this gang of posters. They don't consider the difference between insta-casting a shatter and the fact that the illusions have to run towards the target, giving time for the target to react. They just want the class gutted. > > are we ignoring the fact that they get super speed when shattered? I'm sorry i forgot this traitline wasn't around anymore..... oh wait, it's still around.............thanks. I forgot they could pick it while having mirage cloak and breaking stuns on dodge....oh wait, it’s a different line.............thanks. Ok that was a cheap shot, sorry. However there’s a lot of other people making posts which seem to complain at high block uptime with shield while complaining about stunbreak on dodge as if you can have both in an almighty quadruple trait line build. Super speed still takes time to get to the enemy, they get there 50% faster but you can still deny shatter fodder all the same. As I keep saying people need to properly and thoughtfully direct their complaints, shatters being instant cast but not instant effect unless you’re in range of them is and always has been fine. If you’re having trouble with mirage shatters try AoE chill/cripple effects so they’re even slower to shatter or just plain cleave/kill the clones, they will die in at most 2 hits to power builds and scourge cleaves them out just as quick on its condi build. Playing any kind of interrupt build without skills that are instant to 1/4s cast is pointless, you’d literally be deleting 5 traits. What you and everyone else should be complaining at is confounding suggestions turning those instant cast dazes into 1s stuns, it’s getting nerfed but frankly in this state of the game it needs redesigning, once again outside the remit of the skill split sadly. If mantra of distraction is still very obnoxious you can reduce the daze duration to 1/2s so it’s more of an interrupt skill than anything else and would require very careful timing to really use it with mental anguish, not that anyone would considering how much mental anguish is being nerfed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 > @"zoopop.5630" said: > > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > In mesmers case shatters are instant cast, but not instant effect, as they have to run towards the target. Even in melee range you still see the animation. The only exceptions are f4-5. > > > Mantra of Distraction is instant cast because it has to be due to the fact not all skills have long, obvious animations to interupt unlike in GW1. And those aren’t going to change because the entire skill system would have to be overhauled and that’s not going to happen. I can’t remember over classes instant skills but it doesn’t matter. > > > > > > No one is denying that Mesmer is strong. It is, however, the issue is that everyone seems to want the class as a whole to receive the Smiters Boon treatment because they don’t like the class. That’s wrong and completely uncalled for. I’ve listed numerous changes that would benefit everyone and still have the class competitive. > > > > Yep. Your last remark pretty much sums it up. > > > > You can explain things until you're blue in the face and it won't matter to this gang of posters. They don't consider the difference between insta-casting a shatter and the fact that the illusions have to run towards the target, giving time for the target to react. They just want the class gutted. > > are we ignoring the fact that they get super speed when shattered? I'm sorry i forgot this traitline wasn't around anymore..... oh wait, it's still around.............thanks. Ahh yes,, Here it is again The ChronoMirageBoonSpamDPS bot. A majestic creature running 6 traitlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"zoopop.5630" said: > > > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > In mesmers case shatters are instant cast, but not instant effect, as they have to run towards the target. Even in melee range you still see the animation. The only exceptions are f4-5. > > > > Mantra of Distraction is instant cast because it has to be due to the fact not all skills have long, obvious animations to interupt unlike in GW1. And those aren’t going to change because the entire skill system would have to be overhauled and that’s not going to happen. I can’t remember over classes instant skills but it doesn’t matter. > > > > > > > > No one is denying that Mesmer is strong. It is, however, the issue is that everyone seems to want the class as a whole to receive the Smiters Boon treatment because they don’t like the class. That’s wrong and completely uncalled for. I’ve listed numerous changes that would benefit everyone and still have the class competitive. > > > > > > Yep. Your last remark pretty much sums it up. > > > > > > You can explain things until you're blue in the face and it won't matter to this gang of posters. They don't consider the difference between insta-casting a shatter and the fact that the illusions have to run towards the target, giving time for the target to react. They just want the class gutted. > > > > are we ignoring the fact that they get super speed when shattered? I'm sorry i forgot this traitline wasn't around anymore..... oh wait, it's still around.............thanks. > > Ahh yes,, > Here it is again > > The ChronoMirageBoonSpamDPS bot. > A majestic creature running 6 traitlines. > > > There is too many of those people who mention that build ...too many :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoopop.5630 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"zoopop.5630" said: > > > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > In mesmers case shatters are instant cast, but not instant effect, as they have to run towards the target. Even in melee range you still see the animation. The only exceptions are f4-5. > > > > Mantra of Distraction is instant cast because it has to be due to the fact not all skills have long, obvious animations to interupt unlike in GW1. And those aren’t going to change because the entire skill system would have to be overhauled and that’s not going to happen. I can’t remember over classes instant skills but it doesn’t matter. > > > > > > > > No one is denying that Mesmer is strong. It is, however, the issue is that everyone seems to want the class as a whole to receive the Smiters Boon treatment because they don’t like the class. That’s wrong and completely uncalled for. I’ve listed numerous changes that would benefit everyone and still have the class competitive. > > > > > > Yep. Your last remark pretty much sums it up. > > > > > > You can explain things until you're blue in the face and it won't matter to this gang of posters. They don't consider the difference between insta-casting a shatter and the fact that the illusions have to run towards the target, giving time for the target to react. They just want the class gutted. > > > > are we ignoring the fact that they get super speed when shattered? I'm sorry i forgot this traitline wasn't around anymore..... oh wait, it's still around.............thanks. > > Ahh yes,, > Here it is again > > The ChronoMirageBoonSpamDPS bot. > A majestic creature running 6 traitlines. > > > we call that creature the Mesmer also known as the rare unicorn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoopop.5630 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"zoopop.5630" said: > > > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > In mesmers case shatters are instant cast, but not instant effect, as they have to run towards the target. Even in melee range you still see the animation. The only exceptions are f4-5. > > > > Mantra of Distraction is instant cast because it has to be due to the fact not all skills have long, obvious animations to interupt unlike in GW1. And those aren’t going to change because the entire skill system would have to be overhauled and that’s not going to happen. I can’t remember over classes instant skills but it doesn’t matter. > > > > > > > > No one is denying that Mesmer is strong. It is, however, the issue is that everyone seems to want the class as a whole to receive the Smiters Boon treatment because they don’t like the class. That’s wrong and completely uncalled for. I’ve listed numerous changes that would benefit everyone and still have the class competitive. > > > > > > Yep. Your last remark pretty much sums it up. > > > > > > You can explain things until you're blue in the face and it won't matter to this gang of posters. They don't consider the difference between insta-casting a shatter and the fact that the illusions have to run towards the target, giving time for the target to react. They just want the class gutted. > > > > are we ignoring the fact that they get super speed when shattered? I'm sorry i forgot this traitline wasn't around anymore..... oh wait, it's still around.............thanks. > > I forgot they could pick it while having mirage cloak and breaking stuns on dodge....oh wait, it’s a different line.............thanks. > > Ok that was a cheap shot, sorry. However there’s a lot of other people making posts which seem to complain at high block uptime with shield while complaining about stunbreak on dodge as if you can have both in an almighty quadruple trait line build. Super speed still takes time to get to the enemy, they get there 50% faster but you can still deny shatter fodder all the same. > > As I keep saying people need to properly and thoughtfully direct their complaints, shatters being instant cast but not instant effect unless you’re in range of them is and always has been fine. If you’re having trouble with mirage shatters try AoE chill/cripple effects so they’re even slower to shatter or just plain cleave/kill the clones, they will die in at most 2 hits to power builds and scourge cleaves them out just as quick on its condi build. > > Playing any kind of interrupt build without skills that are instant to 1/4s cast is pointless, you’d literally be deleting 5 traits. What you and everyone else should be complaining at is confounding suggestions turning those instant cast dazes into 1s stuns, it’s getting nerfed but frankly in this state of the game it needs redesigning, once again outside the remit of the skill split sadly. If mantra of distraction is still very obnoxious you can reduce the daze duration to 1/2s so it’s more of an interrupt skill than anything else and would require very careful timing to really use it with mental anguish, not that anyone would considering how much mental anguish is being nerfed. btw OP was talking about clone spam which comes from the chrono traitline which also has the super speed traitline but ah yea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 > @"zoopop.5630" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"zoopop.5630" said: > > > > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > > > In mesmers case shatters are instant cast, but not instant effect, as they have to run towards the target. Even in melee range you still see the animation. The only exceptions are f4-5. > > > > > Mantra of Distraction is instant cast because it has to be due to the fact not all skills have long, obvious animations to interupt unlike in GW1. And those aren’t going to change because the entire skill system would have to be overhauled and that’s not going to happen. I can’t remember over classes instant skills but it doesn’t matter. > > > > > > > > > > No one is denying that Mesmer is strong. It is, however, the issue is that everyone seems to want the class as a whole to receive the Smiters Boon treatment because they don’t like the class. That’s wrong and completely uncalled for. I’ve listed numerous changes that would benefit everyone and still have the class competitive. > > > > > > > > Yep. Your last remark pretty much sums it up. > > > > > > > > You can explain things until you're blue in the face and it won't matter to this gang of posters. They don't consider the difference between insta-casting a shatter and the fact that the illusions have to run towards the target, giving time for the target to react. They just want the class gutted. > > > > > > are we ignoring the fact that they get super speed when shattered? I'm sorry i forgot this traitline wasn't around anymore..... oh wait, it's still around.............thanks. > > > > I forgot they could pick it while having mirage cloak and breaking stuns on dodge....oh wait, it’s a different line.............thanks. > > > > Ok that was a cheap shot, sorry. However there’s a lot of other people making posts which seem to complain at high block uptime with shield while complaining about stunbreak on dodge as if you can have both in an almighty quadruple trait line build. Super speed still takes time to get to the enemy, they get there 50% faster but you can still deny shatter fodder all the same. > > > > As I keep saying people need to properly and thoughtfully direct their complaints, shatters being instant cast but not instant effect unless you’re in range of them is and always has been fine. If you’re having trouble with mirage shatters try AoE chill/cripple effects so they’re even slower to shatter or just plain cleave/kill the clones, they will die in at most 2 hits to power builds and scourge cleaves them out just as quick on its condi build. > > > > Playing any kind of interrupt build without skills that are instant to 1/4s cast is pointless, you’d literally be deleting 5 traits. What you and everyone else should be complaining at is confounding suggestions turning those instant cast dazes into 1s stuns, it’s getting nerfed but frankly in this state of the game it needs redesigning, once again outside the remit of the skill split sadly. If mantra of distraction is still very obnoxious you can reduce the daze duration to 1/2s so it’s more of an interrupt skill than anything else and would require very careful timing to really use it with mental anguish, not that anyone would considering how much mental anguish is being nerfed. > > btw OP was talking about clone spam which comes from the chrono traitline which also has the super speed traitline but ah yea! Clone spam isn’t the problem though. Mesmer can only have 3 clones. Phantasms are unlimited and need to be limited to 3 as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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