shadowpass.4236 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > **>You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range. ** > > > >Because i can SAY* something stupid like thief can spam sword2 and travel 1 million range! > > > ^Thats related to your 9 mirage thrurst in a row . **After seeing i have doubts that you ever had said brain cells...If you can confirm your lie ,go ahead.** > > > You say BS, i did the same. Something you never had, cant die ;) > > > in fact, its combat mobility which is comes to absurd level compared to mesmer. > > > What you struggle to understand ? Im not using google translate or anything but when put it there, its translated exactly how i wanted it to be . Keep pretending . > > > > > > > 1. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > 2. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > False Oasis + Vigor + Adventure Runes > > > > 3. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > 4. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > 5. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > Desert Distortion + 3 Illusions = 3 Mirage Mirrors > > > > 6. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > 7. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > 8. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > 9. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > 10. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > 10 Mirage Thrusts. > > > > I play mesmer too, and I obviously know more about it than you do. I haven't lied about anything lol > > You can’t cover 5400 range with that though as the mirage mirrors from desert distortion appear where the clones died, you would also have to be in combat with something to have 3 clones out to begin with. Additionally you’d have to go back and forth for the mirrors, it’s far more useful just for the prolonged evasion in combat or triggering IH. > > Mirage mirror after false oasis appears after 4s so you’d have to go back to grab it if you’re running or thrusting away or wait 4s to use it which would give vigor enough time to refill half an endurance bar not a full endurance bar. This isn’t doing multiple mirage thrusts in a row, this is doing some, waiting, doing some more, waiting. You also seem to have a very warped idea of how vigor works, it is 50% endurance regen as it was nerfed a long time ago, that’s 2.5 endurance/s extra so it takes 7.5s to get a full dodge back. > > I can see getting maybe 4-5 off in a row, that is chained btw but 9 is stretching it a lot, remember this isn’t WvW where the food gives a 5s dodge regeneration rate. Don’t get me wrong it’s still a decent distance all by itself, 2400-3000 is plenty far enough just there’s at least a little disception afoot in your claim of covering 5400 via 9 mirage thrusts in a row. It depends. You're assuming the Mirage is running away. You could potentially Mirage Thrust 9 times in a row if you were chasing someone because your illusions would shatter ahead of you. However, yes, 5-6 Mirage Thrusts is more common and easier to pull off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > **>You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range. ** > > > > >Because i can SAY* something stupid like thief can spam sword2 and travel 1 million range! > > > > ^Thats related to your 9 mirage thrurst in a row . **After seeing i have doubts that you ever had said brain cells...If you can confirm your lie ,go ahead.** > > > > You say BS, i did the same. Something you never had, cant die ;) > > > > in fact, its combat mobility which is comes to absurd level compared to mesmer. > > > > What you struggle to understand ? Im not using google translate or anything but when put it there, its translated exactly how i wanted it to be . Keep pretending . > > > > > > > > > > 1. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > 2. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > False Oasis + Vigor + Adventure Runes > > > > > > 3. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > 4. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > 5. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > Desert Distortion + 3 Illusions = 3 Mirage Mirrors > > > > > > 6. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > 7. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > 8. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > 9. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > 10. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > 10 Mirage Thrusts. > > > > > > I play mesmer too, and I obviously know more about it than you do. I haven't lied about anything lol > > > > You can’t cover 5400 range with that though as the mirage mirrors from desert distortion appear where the clones died, you would also have to be in combat with something to have 3 clones out to begin with. Additionally you’d have to go back and forth for the mirrors, it’s far more useful just for the prolonged evasion in combat or triggering IH. > > > > Mirage mirror after false oasis appears after 4s so you’d have to go back to grab it if you’re running or thrusting away or wait 4s to use it which would give vigor enough time to refill half an endurance bar not a full endurance bar. This isn’t doing multiple mirage thrusts in a row, this is doing some, waiting, doing some more, waiting. You also seem to have a very warped idea of how vigor works, it is 50% endurance regen as it was nerfed a long time ago, that’s 2.5 endurance/s extra so it takes 7.5s to get a full dodge back. > > > > I can see getting maybe 4-5 off in a row, that is chained btw but 9 is stretching it a lot, remember this isn’t WvW where the food gives a 5s dodge regeneration rate. Don’t get me wrong it’s still a decent distance all by itself, 2400-3000 is plenty far enough just there’s at least a little disception afoot in your claim of covering 5400 via 9 mirage thrusts in a row. > > It depends. You're assuming the Mirage is running away. You could potentially Mirage Thrust 9 times in a row if you were chasing someone because your illusions would shatter ahead of you. However, yes, 5-6 Mirage Thrusts is more common and easier to pull off. That’s not what you said in your original statement thought, see below. > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > > > > > lol，maybe only you can do this .Other one can only choose 3 talents and 4 weapons to get one of the abilities，but u can choose 7 talent and 8 weapons at same time.Please don't speak with your feelings and list all the skills in detail to explain that mesmer doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. > > > > > > Greater than holosmith-level damage: Most phantasms > > > Thief engage/disengage/ganking: Blink, Jaunts, Mirage Thrusts > > > Warrior tankiness: Permanent protection + paladins amulet, very good condi clear, etc. etc. etc. etc. > > > > what phantasms could make damage like holo 123545 ,please concrete explanation > > [11k Disenchanter](https://imgur.com/a/8PhBv) > [11k Defender](https://imgur.com/a/7zCSp) > > > > > mes :Blink have 30s cd，Jaunts only 450 rang ,Mirage Thrusts 600 rang ,Compare with thieves，'Infiltrator's Strike' 0cd 900 rang ('Infiltrator's Return' 1200rang) 'Shadow Shot' 0cd 900rang ' Infiltrator's Arrow' 0cd 900rang ,Steal 1200 rang（The maximum use of two times），limitless acceleration......(more is not to say) > > The above description mes engage/disengage/ganking than Thief? > > lol? > > Meta Mesmer: > - Blink is on a shorter cooldown than Shadowstep and travels 1200 range. > - You can Jaunt 3 times in a row and travel 1350 range. > - **You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range.** > - Portal has a range of 5000. > > Total = 7550 range > > Meta Thief: > - Shadowstep 1200 range. > - Infiltrator's Arrow 3 times in a row to travel 2700 range. > > Total without target = 3900 range > - Steal 1200 range. > - Infiltrator's Strike 900 range. > > Total = 6000 range > > > > > everyone can equipment paladins amulet so everyone have warrior tankiness（mes unable to provide permanent protection）？no choice of inspiration is only a little clear, warrior has a lot of resistance even not SB > > > > > > Yes, mesmer can get permanent protection lol... > > Both dodges and jaunts clear condis btw. You don't even need inspiration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > **>You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range. ** > > > > > >Because i can SAY* something stupid like thief can spam sword2 and travel 1 million range! > > > > > ^Thats related to your 9 mirage thrurst in a row . **After seeing i have doubts that you ever had said brain cells...If you can confirm your lie ,go ahead.** > > > > > You say BS, i did the same. Something you never had, cant die ;) > > > > > in fact, its combat mobility which is comes to absurd level compared to mesmer. > > > > > What you struggle to understand ? Im not using google translate or anything but when put it there, its translated exactly how i wanted it to be . Keep pretending . > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > 2. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > False Oasis + Vigor + Adventure Runes > > > > > > > > 3. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > 4. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > 5. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > Desert Distortion + 3 Illusions = 3 Mirage Mirrors > > > > > > > > 6. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > 7. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > 8. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > 9. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > 10. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > 10 Mirage Thrusts. > > > > > > > > I play mesmer too, and I obviously know more about it than you do. I haven't lied about anything lol > > > > > > You can’t cover 5400 range with that though as the mirage mirrors from desert distortion appear where the clones died, you would also have to be in combat with something to have 3 clones out to begin with. Additionally you’d have to go back and forth for the mirrors, it’s far more useful just for the prolonged evasion in combat or triggering IH. > > > > > > Mirage mirror after false oasis appears after 4s so you’d have to go back to grab it if you’re running or thrusting away or wait 4s to use it which would give vigor enough time to refill half an endurance bar not a full endurance bar. This isn’t doing multiple mirage thrusts in a row, this is doing some, waiting, doing some more, waiting. You also seem to have a very warped idea of how vigor works, it is 50% endurance regen as it was nerfed a long time ago, that’s 2.5 endurance/s extra so it takes 7.5s to get a full dodge back. > > > > > > I can see getting maybe 4-5 off in a row, that is chained btw but 9 is stretching it a lot, remember this isn’t WvW where the food gives a 5s dodge regeneration rate. Don’t get me wrong it’s still a decent distance all by itself, 2400-3000 is plenty far enough just there’s at least a little disception afoot in your claim of covering 5400 via 9 mirage thrusts in a row. > > > > It depends. You're assuming the Mirage is running away. You could potentially Mirage Thrust 9 times in a row if you were chasing someone because your illusions would shatter ahead of you. However, yes, 5-6 Mirage Thrusts is more common and easier to pull off. > > That’s not what you said in your original statement thought, see below. > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > > > > > > > lol，maybe only you can do this .Other one can only choose 3 talents and 4 weapons to get one of the abilities，but u can choose 7 talent and 8 weapons at same time.Please don't speak with your feelings and list all the skills in detail to explain that mesmer doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. > > > > > > > > Greater than holosmith-level damage: Most phantasms > > > > Thief engage/disengage/ganking: Blink, Jaunts, Mirage Thrusts > > > > Warrior tankiness: Permanent protection + paladins amulet, very good condi clear, etc. etc. etc. etc. > > > > > > what phantasms could make damage like holo 123545 ,please concrete explanation > > > > [11k Disenchanter](https://imgur.com/a/8PhBv) > > [11k Defender](https://imgur.com/a/7zCSp) > > > > > > > > mes :Blink have 30s cd，Jaunts only 450 rang ,Mirage Thrusts 600 rang ,Compare with thieves，'Infiltrator's Strike' 0cd 900 rang ('Infiltrator's Return' 1200rang) 'Shadow Shot' 0cd 900rang ' Infiltrator's Arrow' 0cd 900rang ,Steal 1200 rang（The maximum use of two times），limitless acceleration......(more is not to say) > > > The above description mes engage/disengage/ganking than Thief? > > > > lol? > > > > Meta Mesmer: > > - Blink is on a shorter cooldown than Shadowstep and travels 1200 range. > > - You can Jaunt 3 times in a row and travel 1350 range. > > - **You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range.** > > - Portal has a range of 5000. > > > > Total = 7550 range > > > > Meta Thief: > > - Shadowstep 1200 range. > > - Infiltrator's Arrow 3 times in a row to travel 2700 range. > > > > Total without target = 3900 range > > - Steal 1200 range. > > - Infiltrator's Strike 900 range. > > > > Total = 6000 range > > > > > > > > everyone can equipment paladins amulet so everyone have warrior tankiness（mes unable to provide permanent protection）？no choice of inspiration is only a little clear, warrior has a lot of resistance even not SB > > > > > > > > > > Yes, mesmer can get permanent protection lol... > > > > Both dodges and jaunts clear condis btw. You don't even need inspiration. > > "You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range." That is **exactly** what I said and you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FtoPScrub.5476 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 You guys are trying to quantify performance by comparing pointless numbers on paper as if they actually mean anything lol. In practice Mesmer is S tier and will remain so unless Anet makes drastic changes. The class is broken and most top tier streamers/players agree. You can defend your class all you want but most of the pvp community is calling for Mesmer nerfs and **when** they happen it'll be justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said: > You guys are trying to quantify performance by comparing pointless numbers on paper as if they actually mean anything lol. In practice Mesmer is S tier and will remain so unless Anet makes drastic changes. The class is broken and most top tier streamers/players agree. You can defend your class all you want but most of the pvp community is calling for Mesmer nerfs and **when** they happen it'll be justified. Then you haven’t been keeping up with the post have you? We are saying it needs them. Only Ithliwen is saying it’s fine but by now everyone should know to take her with a grain of salt. What we ARE saying is that what people want to nerf are either the wrong things or are too much. You can’t call for nerfs for one class you wouldn’t want on yours and that’s exactly what’s happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > **>You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range. ** > > > > > > >Because i can SAY* something stupid like thief can spam sword2 and travel 1 million range! > > > > > > ^Thats related to your 9 mirage thrurst in a row . **After seeing i have doubts that you ever had said brain cells...If you can confirm your lie ,go ahead.** > > > > > > You say BS, i did the same. Something you never had, cant die ;) > > > > > > in fact, its combat mobility which is comes to absurd level compared to mesmer. > > > > > > What you struggle to understand ? Im not using google translate or anything but when put it there, its translated exactly how i wanted it to be . Keep pretending . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > 2. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > False Oasis + Vigor + Adventure Runes > > > > > > > > > > 3. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > 4. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > 5. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > Desert Distortion + 3 Illusions = 3 Mirage Mirrors > > > > > > > > > > 6. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > 7. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > 8. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > 9. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > 10. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > 10 Mirage Thrusts. > > > > > > > > > > I play mesmer too, and I obviously know more about it than you do. I haven't lied about anything lol > > > > > > > > You can’t cover 5400 range with that though as the mirage mirrors from desert distortion appear where the clones died, you would also have to be in combat with something to have 3 clones out to begin with. Additionally you’d have to go back and forth for the mirrors, it’s far more useful just for the prolonged evasion in combat or triggering IH. > > > > > > > > Mirage mirror after false oasis appears after 4s so you’d have to go back to grab it if you’re running or thrusting away or wait 4s to use it which would give vigor enough time to refill half an endurance bar not a full endurance bar. This isn’t doing multiple mirage thrusts in a row, this is doing some, waiting, doing some more, waiting. You also seem to have a very warped idea of how vigor works, it is 50% endurance regen as it was nerfed a long time ago, that’s 2.5 endurance/s extra so it takes 7.5s to get a full dodge back. > > > > > > > > I can see getting maybe 4-5 off in a row, that is chained btw but 9 is stretching it a lot, remember this isn’t WvW where the food gives a 5s dodge regeneration rate. Don’t get me wrong it’s still a decent distance all by itself, 2400-3000 is plenty far enough just there’s at least a little disception afoot in your claim of covering 5400 via 9 mirage thrusts in a row. > > > > > > It depends. You're assuming the Mirage is running away. You could potentially Mirage Thrust 9 times in a row if you were chasing someone because your illusions would shatter ahead of you. However, yes, 5-6 Mirage Thrusts is more common and easier to pull off. > > > > That’s not what you said in your original statement thought, see below. > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > > > > > > > > > lol，maybe only you can do this .Other one can only choose 3 talents and 4 weapons to get one of the abilities，but u can choose 7 talent and 8 weapons at same time.Please don't speak with your feelings and list all the skills in detail to explain that mesmer doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. > > > > > > > > > > Greater than holosmith-level damage: Most phantasms > > > > > Thief engage/disengage/ganking: Blink, Jaunts, Mirage Thrusts > > > > > Warrior tankiness: Permanent protection + paladins amulet, very good condi clear, etc. etc. etc. etc. > > > > > > > > what phantasms could make damage like holo 123545 ,please concrete explanation > > > > > > [11k Disenchanter](https://imgur.com/a/8PhBv) > > > [11k Defender](https://imgur.com/a/7zCSp) > > > > > > > > > > > mes :Blink have 30s cd，Jaunts only 450 rang ,Mirage Thrusts 600 rang ,Compare with thieves，'Infiltrator's Strike' 0cd 900 rang ('Infiltrator's Return' 1200rang) 'Shadow Shot' 0cd 900rang ' Infiltrator's Arrow' 0cd 900rang ,Steal 1200 rang（The maximum use of two times），limitless acceleration......(more is not to say) > > > > The above description mes engage/disengage/ganking than Thief? > > > > > > lol? > > > > > > Meta Mesmer: > > > - Blink is on a shorter cooldown than Shadowstep and travels 1200 range. > > > - You can Jaunt 3 times in a row and travel 1350 range. > > > - **You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range.** > > > - Portal has a range of 5000. > > > > > > Total = 7550 range > > > > > > Meta Thief: > > > - Shadowstep 1200 range. > > > - Infiltrator's Arrow 3 times in a row to travel 2700 range. > > > > > > Total without target = 3900 range > > > - Steal 1200 range. > > > - Infiltrator's Strike 900 range. > > > > > > Total = 6000 range > > > > > > > > > > > everyone can equipment paladins amulet so everyone have warrior tankiness（mes unable to provide permanent protection）？no choice of inspiration is only a little clear, warrior has a lot of resistance even not SB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, mesmer can get permanent protection lol... > > > > > > Both dodges and jaunts clear condis btw. You don't even need inspiration. > > > > > > "You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range." > > That is **exactly** what I said and you can. When people say range in that context you usually mean travel a distance in a line, you still have too many mirage thrusts attributed to vigor though as it would take 7.5s to get a dodge back. Edit: looking at original context they were discussing disengage so yes counting desert distortion mirrors and the oasis is not something you would do for disengage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"Odik.4587" said: > So why i used that argument and caused you lose something you never had. Remember right ? Get your own treatment ;) > > u move a grand total of ZERO distance. You're completely wrong and I think I lost a few brain cells reading that. > Unless you can put all mirros on your path, which is impossible .Clearly a liar . It's not impossible. > Or i should explain that because you obviously ended up in the corner. 5400 range ,not returning back and forth to take mirage mirrors. What is this even 2 last leaps came from ? kitten? It's called endurance regeneration. :] > You talk about META builds you said? Meta build using surge runes , no desert distortion. Even if they would thats still impossible ;) Surging Runes are getting removed in **today's** patch. Most mesmers swapped over to Adventure Runes on NA for the extra dodge. Again, not impossible. > >I play mesmer too, and I obviously know more about it than you do. > Another lie... how cute . Saying mirage has more condi clears than chrono , mirage thrusts 9 times for 5400 range ... No idea why you think that you know more :D The meta Chrono build runs exactly the same traitlines as Mirage does. Mirage has access to more condition clears that Chrono regardless if both of them take Inspiration or not. So, no. What I said was completely correct. Why don't you share a screenshot of your ranking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > You can’t call for nerfs for one class you wouldn’t want on yours and that’s exactly what’s happening. Don't be mean and suggest one class gets nerfed more than another? In 2018, feelings are more important than game balance Some classes are better than others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > **>You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range. ** > > > > > > > >Because i can SAY* something stupid like thief can spam sword2 and travel 1 million range! > > > > > > > ^Thats related to your 9 mirage thrurst in a row . **After seeing i have doubts that you ever had said brain cells...If you can confirm your lie ,go ahead.** > > > > > > > You say BS, i did the same. Something you never had, cant die ;) > > > > > > > in fact, its combat mobility which is comes to absurd level compared to mesmer. > > > > > > > What you struggle to understand ? Im not using google translate or anything but when put it there, its translated exactly how i wanted it to be . Keep pretending . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > 2. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > > > False Oasis + Vigor + Adventure Runes > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > 4. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > 5. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > > > Desert Distortion + 3 Illusions = 3 Mirage Mirrors > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > 7. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > 8. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > 9. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > 10. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > > > 10 Mirage Thrusts. > > > > > > > > > > > > I play mesmer too, and I obviously know more about it than you do. I haven't lied about anything lol > > > > > > > > > > You can’t cover 5400 range with that though as the mirage mirrors from desert distortion appear where the clones died, you would also have to be in combat with something to have 3 clones out to begin with. Additionally you’d have to go back and forth for the mirrors, it’s far more useful just for the prolonged evasion in combat or triggering IH. > > > > > > > > > > Mirage mirror after false oasis appears after 4s so you’d have to go back to grab it if you’re running or thrusting away or wait 4s to use it which would give vigor enough time to refill half an endurance bar not a full endurance bar. This isn’t doing multiple mirage thrusts in a row, this is doing some, waiting, doing some more, waiting. You also seem to have a very warped idea of how vigor works, it is 50% endurance regen as it was nerfed a long time ago, that’s 2.5 endurance/s extra so it takes 7.5s to get a full dodge back. > > > > > > > > > > I can see getting maybe 4-5 off in a row, that is chained btw but 9 is stretching it a lot, remember this isn’t WvW where the food gives a 5s dodge regeneration rate. Don’t get me wrong it’s still a decent distance all by itself, 2400-3000 is plenty far enough just there’s at least a little disception afoot in your claim of covering 5400 via 9 mirage thrusts in a row. > > > > > > > > It depends. You're assuming the Mirage is running away. You could potentially Mirage Thrust 9 times in a row if you were chasing someone because your illusions would shatter ahead of you. However, yes, 5-6 Mirage Thrusts is more common and easier to pull off. > > > > > > That’s not what you said in your original statement thought, see below. > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > > > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol，maybe only you can do this .Other one can only choose 3 talents and 4 weapons to get one of the abilities，but u can choose 7 talent and 8 weapons at same time.Please don't speak with your feelings and list all the skills in detail to explain that mesmer doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. > > > > > > > > > > > > Greater than holosmith-level damage: Most phantasms > > > > > > Thief engage/disengage/ganking: Blink, Jaunts, Mirage Thrusts > > > > > > Warrior tankiness: Permanent protection + paladins amulet, very good condi clear, etc. etc. etc. etc. > > > > > > > > > > what phantasms could make damage like holo 123545 ,please concrete explanation > > > > > > > > [11k Disenchanter](https://imgur.com/a/8PhBv) > > > > [11k Defender](https://imgur.com/a/7zCSp) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mes :Blink have 30s cd，Jaunts only 450 rang ,Mirage Thrusts 600 rang ,Compare with thieves，'Infiltrator's Strike' 0cd 900 rang ('Infiltrator's Return' 1200rang) 'Shadow Shot' 0cd 900rang ' Infiltrator's Arrow' 0cd 900rang ,Steal 1200 rang（The maximum use of two times），limitless acceleration......(more is not to say) > > > > > The above description mes engage/disengage/ganking than Thief? > > > > > > > > lol? > > > > > > > > Meta Mesmer: > > > > - Blink is on a shorter cooldown than Shadowstep and travels 1200 range. > > > > - You can Jaunt 3 times in a row and travel 1350 range. > > > > - **You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range.** > > > > - Portal has a range of 5000. > > > > > > > > Total = 7550 range > > > > > > > > Meta Thief: > > > > - Shadowstep 1200 range. > > > > - Infiltrator's Arrow 3 times in a row to travel 2700 range. > > > > > > > > Total without target = 3900 range > > > > - Steal 1200 range. > > > > - Infiltrator's Strike 900 range. > > > > > > > > Total = 6000 range > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everyone can equipment paladins amulet so everyone have warrior tankiness（mes unable to provide permanent protection）？no choice of inspiration is only a little clear, warrior has a lot of resistance even not SB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, mesmer can get permanent protection lol... > > > > > > > > Both dodges and jaunts clear condis btw. You don't even need inspiration. > > > > > > > > > > "You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range." > > > > That is **exactly** what I said and you can. > > When people say range in that context you usually mean travel a distance in a line, you still have too many mirage thrusts attributed to vigor though as it would take 7.5s to get a dodge back. > > Edit: looking at original context they were discussing disengage so yes counting desert distortion mirrors and the oasis is not something you would do for disengage. 5-6 Mirage Thrusts is perfectly reasonable. Oasis can be used for disengage, it's not that hard. Even then, with 5-6 Mirage Thrusts instead of 9, Mirage still has the "equivalent to thief engage/disengage." This was the original point to begin with. > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > list all the skills in detail to explain that mesmer doing the equivalent thief engage/disengage. 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apharma.3741 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > **>You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range. ** > > > > > > > > >Because i can SAY* something stupid like thief can spam sword2 and travel 1 million range! > > > > > > > > ^Thats related to your 9 mirage thrurst in a row . **After seeing i have doubts that you ever had said brain cells...If you can confirm your lie ,go ahead.** > > > > > > > > You say BS, i did the same. Something you never had, cant die ;) > > > > > > > > in fact, its combat mobility which is comes to absurd level compared to mesmer. > > > > > > > > What you struggle to understand ? Im not using google translate or anything but when put it there, its translated exactly how i wanted it to be . Keep pretending . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > 2. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > False Oasis + Vigor + Adventure Runes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > 4. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > 5. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Desert Distortion + 3 Illusions = 3 Mirage Mirrors > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > 7. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > 8. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > 9. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > 10. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10 Mirage Thrusts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I play mesmer too, and I obviously know more about it than you do. I haven't lied about anything lol > > > > > > > > > > > > You can’t cover 5400 range with that though as the mirage mirrors from desert distortion appear where the clones died, you would also have to be in combat with something to have 3 clones out to begin with. Additionally you’d have to go back and forth for the mirrors, it’s far more useful just for the prolonged evasion in combat or triggering IH. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage mirror after false oasis appears after 4s so you’d have to go back to grab it if you’re running or thrusting away or wait 4s to use it which would give vigor enough time to refill half an endurance bar not a full endurance bar. This isn’t doing multiple mirage thrusts in a row, this is doing some, waiting, doing some more, waiting. You also seem to have a very warped idea of how vigor works, it is 50% endurance regen as it was nerfed a long time ago, that’s 2.5 endurance/s extra so it takes 7.5s to get a full dodge back. > > > > > > > > > > > > I can see getting maybe 4-5 off in a row, that is chained btw but 9 is stretching it a lot, remember this isn’t WvW where the food gives a 5s dodge regeneration rate. Don’t get me wrong it’s still a decent distance all by itself, 2400-3000 is plenty far enough just there’s at least a little disception afoot in your claim of covering 5400 via 9 mirage thrusts in a row. > > > > > > > > > > It depends. You're assuming the Mirage is running away. You could potentially Mirage Thrust 9 times in a row if you were chasing someone because your illusions would shatter ahead of you. However, yes, 5-6 Mirage Thrusts is more common and easier to pull off. > > > > > > > > That’s not what you said in your original statement thought, see below. > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > > > > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol，maybe only you can do this .Other one can only choose 3 talents and 4 weapons to get one of the abilities，but u can choose 7 talent and 8 weapons at same time.Please don't speak with your feelings and list all the skills in detail to explain that mesmer doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greater than holosmith-level damage: Most phantasms > > > > > > > Thief engage/disengage/ganking: Blink, Jaunts, Mirage Thrusts > > > > > > > Warrior tankiness: Permanent protection + paladins amulet, very good condi clear, etc. etc. etc. etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > what phantasms could make damage like holo 123545 ,please concrete explanation > > > > > > > > > > [11k Disenchanter](https://imgur.com/a/8PhBv) > > > > > [11k Defender](https://imgur.com/a/7zCSp) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mes :Blink have 30s cd，Jaunts only 450 rang ,Mirage Thrusts 600 rang ,Compare with thieves，'Infiltrator's Strike' 0cd 900 rang ('Infiltrator's Return' 1200rang) 'Shadow Shot' 0cd 900rang ' Infiltrator's Arrow' 0cd 900rang ,Steal 1200 rang（The maximum use of two times），limitless acceleration......(more is not to say) > > > > > > The above description mes engage/disengage/ganking than Thief? > > > > > > > > > > lol? > > > > > > > > > > Meta Mesmer: > > > > > - Blink is on a shorter cooldown than Shadowstep and travels 1200 range. > > > > > - You can Jaunt 3 times in a row and travel 1350 range. > > > > > - **You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range.** > > > > > - Portal has a range of 5000. > > > > > > > > > > Total = 7550 range > > > > > > > > > > Meta Thief: > > > > > - Shadowstep 1200 range. > > > > > - Infiltrator's Arrow 3 times in a row to travel 2700 range. > > > > > > > > > > Total without target = 3900 range > > > > > - Steal 1200 range. > > > > > - Infiltrator's Strike 900 range. > > > > > > > > > > Total = 6000 range > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everyone can equipment paladins amulet so everyone have warrior tankiness（mes unable to provide permanent protection）？no choice of inspiration is only a little clear, warrior has a lot of resistance even not SB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, mesmer can get permanent protection lol... > > > > > > > > > > Both dodges and jaunts clear condis btw. You don't even need inspiration. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range." > > > > > > That is **exactly** what I said and you can. > > > > When people say range in that context you usually mean travel a distance in a line, you still have too many mirage thrusts attributed to vigor though as it would take 7.5s to get a dodge back. > > > > Edit: looking at original context they were discussing disengage so yes counting desert distortion mirrors and the oasis is not something you would do for disengage. > > 5-6 Mirage Thrusts is perfectly reasonable. Oasis can be used for disengage, it's not that hard. > > Even then, with 5-6 Mirage Thrusts instead of 9, Mirage still has the "equivalent to thief engage/disengage." This was the original point to begin with. Oh I don’t deny 5 (2 dodges, adventure runes, desert distortion and a mirror) for disengage just saying you’re really stretching meanings and context with 9 or 10 and you’re attributing too much endurance regen to vigor for a in a row claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will de grijze jager.6594 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > The Mesmer redesign was expressly to force shattering. That requires that we have clones. So, ANET cannot reduce clones without either completely reverting the most recent redesign or utterly crippling Mesmer. > > It's about time that other players actually had to think to play against a Mesmer and target the real Mesmer instead of simply cleaving the clones with auto attack, ( or any type of aoe, ) and ignoring them. > > This is a learn to play issue. It's funny how this guy is saying that memser is not broken and need a buff, but the top players in the game are saying it is broken. Even the mesmer top player say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FtoPScrub.5476 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said: > > You guys are trying to quantify performance by comparing pointless numbers on paper as if they actually mean anything lol. In practice Mesmer is S tier and will remain so unless Anet makes drastic changes. The class is broken and most top tier streamers/players agree. You can defend your class all you want but most of the pvp community is calling for Mesmer nerfs and **when** they happen it'll be justified. > > Then you haven’t been keeping up with the post have you? We are saying it needs them. Only Ithliwen is saying it’s fine but by now everyone should know to take her with a grain of salt. > > What we ARE saying is that what people want to nerf are either the wrong things or are too much. You can’t call for nerfs for one class you wouldn’t want on yours and that’s exactly what’s happening. More like some Mesmers in this thread are suggesting nerfs that in no way are going to remove it from the S tier bracket and are hoping Anet is dumb enough to take the bait so they can enjoy their broken class for longer. Spoiler: A 15% nerf to phantasms is nothing and does nothing to remove Mesmer from S tier because Mirage/Chrono needs nerfs that affect functionality. Dodging while CC'd needs to go. Instant stun through mantras need to go. Adventures runes need to go. Chaos traitline needs to have significant nerfs to boon application. Sword ambush shouldnt be a leap ffs. Elusive mind needs to be deleted. Then and only then will minor percentage nerfs mean anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > **>You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range. ** > > > > > > > > > >Because i can SAY* something stupid like thief can spam sword2 and travel 1 million range! > > > > > > > > > ^Thats related to your 9 mirage thrurst in a row . **After seeing i have doubts that you ever had said brain cells...If you can confirm your lie ,go ahead.** > > > > > > > > > You say BS, i did the same. Something you never had, cant die ;) > > > > > > > > > in fact, its combat mobility which is comes to absurd level compared to mesmer. > > > > > > > > > What you struggle to understand ? Im not using google translate or anything but when put it there, its translated exactly how i wanted it to be . Keep pretending . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > 2. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > False Oasis + Vigor + Adventure Runes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > 4. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > 5. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Desert Distortion + 3 Illusions = 3 Mirage Mirrors > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > 7. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > 8. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > 9. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > 10. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10 Mirage Thrusts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I play mesmer too, and I obviously know more about it than you do. I haven't lied about anything lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can’t cover 5400 range with that though as the mirage mirrors from desert distortion appear where the clones died, you would also have to be in combat with something to have 3 clones out to begin with. Additionally you’d have to go back and forth for the mirrors, it’s far more useful just for the prolonged evasion in combat or triggering IH. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage mirror after false oasis appears after 4s so you’d have to go back to grab it if you’re running or thrusting away or wait 4s to use it which would give vigor enough time to refill half an endurance bar not a full endurance bar. This isn’t doing multiple mirage thrusts in a row, this is doing some, waiting, doing some more, waiting. You also seem to have a very warped idea of how vigor works, it is 50% endurance regen as it was nerfed a long time ago, that’s 2.5 endurance/s extra so it takes 7.5s to get a full dodge back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can see getting maybe 4-5 off in a row, that is chained btw but 9 is stretching it a lot, remember this isn’t WvW where the food gives a 5s dodge regeneration rate. Don’t get me wrong it’s still a decent distance all by itself, 2400-3000 is plenty far enough just there’s at least a little disception afoot in your claim of covering 5400 via 9 mirage thrusts in a row. > > > > > > > > > > > > It depends. You're assuming the Mirage is running away. You could potentially Mirage Thrust 9 times in a row if you were chasing someone because your illusions would shatter ahead of you. However, yes, 5-6 Mirage Thrusts is more common and easier to pull off. > > > > > > > > > > That’s not what you said in your original statement thought, see below. > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > > > > > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol，maybe only you can do this .Other one can only choose 3 talents and 4 weapons to get one of the abilities，but u can choose 7 talent and 8 weapons at same time.Please don't speak with your feelings and list all the skills in detail to explain that mesmer doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greater than holosmith-level damage: Most phantasms > > > > > > > > Thief engage/disengage/ganking: Blink, Jaunts, Mirage Thrusts > > > > > > > > Warrior tankiness: Permanent protection + paladins amulet, very good condi clear, etc. etc. etc. etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what phantasms could make damage like holo 123545 ,please concrete explanation > > > > > > > > > > > > [11k Disenchanter](https://imgur.com/a/8PhBv) > > > > > > [11k Defender](https://imgur.com/a/7zCSp) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mes :Blink have 30s cd，Jaunts only 450 rang ,Mirage Thrusts 600 rang ,Compare with thieves，'Infiltrator's Strike' 0cd 900 rang ('Infiltrator's Return' 1200rang) 'Shadow Shot' 0cd 900rang ' Infiltrator's Arrow' 0cd 900rang ,Steal 1200 rang（The maximum use of two times），limitless acceleration......(more is not to say) > > > > > > > The above description mes engage/disengage/ganking than Thief? > > > > > > > > > > > > lol? > > > > > > > > > > > > Meta Mesmer: > > > > > > - Blink is on a shorter cooldown than Shadowstep and travels 1200 range. > > > > > > - You can Jaunt 3 times in a row and travel 1350 range. > > > > > > - **You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range.** > > > > > > - Portal has a range of 5000. > > > > > > > > > > > > Total = 7550 range > > > > > > > > > > > > Meta Thief: > > > > > > - Shadowstep 1200 range. > > > > > > - Infiltrator's Arrow 3 times in a row to travel 2700 range. > > > > > > > > > > > > Total without target = 3900 range > > > > > > - Steal 1200 range. > > > > > > - Infiltrator's Strike 900 range. > > > > > > > > > > > > Total = 6000 range > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everyone can equipment paladins amulet so everyone have warrior tankiness（mes unable to provide permanent protection）？no choice of inspiration is only a little clear, warrior has a lot of resistance even not SB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, mesmer can get permanent protection lol... > > > > > > > > > > > > Both dodges and jaunts clear condis btw. You don't even need inspiration. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range." > > > > > > > > That is **exactly** what I said and you can. > > > > > > When people say range in that context you usually mean travel a distance in a line, you still have too many mirage thrusts attributed to vigor though as it would take 7.5s to get a dodge back. > > > > > > Edit: looking at original context they were discussing disengage so yes counting desert distortion mirrors and the oasis is not something you would do for disengage. > > > > 5-6 Mirage Thrusts is perfectly reasonable. Oasis can be used for disengage, it's not that hard. > > > > Even then, with 5-6 Mirage Thrusts instead of 9, Mirage still has the "equivalent to thief engage/disengage." This was the original point to begin with. > > Oh I don’t deny 5 (2 dodges, adventure runes, desert distortion and a mirror) for disengage just saying you’re really stretching meanings and context with 9 or 10 and you’re attributing too much endurance regen to vigor for a in a row claim. I agree with you. 5-6 is much more reasonable. Even a 7th if you were chasing after someone and you shattered a single illusion ahead of you and didn't go back to pick up the others. 9-10 is still possible, though hard to pull off. However, Mirages have many sources of vigor (heal + shatters) so I don't believe it's unreasonable to take into account the increased endurance regen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > You can’t call for nerfs for one class you wouldn’t want on yours and that’s exactly what’s happening. > > > > Don't be mean and suggest one class gets nerfed more than another? In 2018, feelings are more important than game balance > > > > Some classes are better than others > > > > > > > > > > Oh yes i forgot. That’s the reason we let ithliwen run around saying she beat you in a 1v1 which turned out to be a 2v1, etc. because feelings are much more important than balance. He was being sarcastic lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > **>You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range. ** > > > > > > > > > > >Because i can SAY* something stupid like thief can spam sword2 and travel 1 million range! > > > > > > > > > > ^Thats related to your 9 mirage thrurst in a row . **After seeing i have doubts that you ever had said brain cells...If you can confirm your lie ,go ahead.** > > > > > > > > > > You say BS, i did the same. Something you never had, cant die ;) > > > > > > > > > > in fact, its combat mobility which is comes to absurd level compared to mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > What you struggle to understand ? Im not using google translate or anything but when put it there, its translated exactly how i wanted it to be . Keep pretending . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > 2. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > False Oasis + Vigor + Adventure Runes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > 4. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > 5. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Desert Distortion + 3 Illusions = 3 Mirage Mirrors > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > 7. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > 8. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > 9. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > 10. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10 Mirage Thrusts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I play mesmer too, and I obviously know more about it than you do. I haven't lied about anything lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can’t cover 5400 range with that though as the mirage mirrors from desert distortion appear where the clones died, you would also have to be in combat with something to have 3 clones out to begin with. Additionally you’d have to go back and forth for the mirrors, it’s far more useful just for the prolonged evasion in combat or triggering IH. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage mirror after false oasis appears after 4s so you’d have to go back to grab it if you’re running or thrusting away or wait 4s to use it which would give vigor enough time to refill half an endurance bar not a full endurance bar. This isn’t doing multiple mirage thrusts in a row, this is doing some, waiting, doing some more, waiting. You also seem to have a very warped idea of how vigor works, it is 50% endurance regen as it was nerfed a long time ago, that’s 2.5 endurance/s extra so it takes 7.5s to get a full dodge back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can see getting maybe 4-5 off in a row, that is chained btw but 9 is stretching it a lot, remember this isn’t WvW where the food gives a 5s dodge regeneration rate. Don’t get me wrong it’s still a decent distance all by itself, 2400-3000 is plenty far enough just there’s at least a little disception afoot in your claim of covering 5400 via 9 mirage thrusts in a row. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It depends. You're assuming the Mirage is running away. You could potentially Mirage Thrust 9 times in a row if you were chasing someone because your illusions would shatter ahead of you. However, yes, 5-6 Mirage Thrusts is more common and easier to pull off. > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s not what you said in your original statement thought, see below. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > > > > > > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol，maybe only you can do this .Other one can only choose 3 talents and 4 weapons to get one of the abilities，but u can choose 7 talent and 8 weapons at same time.Please don't speak with your feelings and list all the skills in detail to explain that mesmer doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greater than holosmith-level damage: Most phantasms > > > > > > > > > Thief engage/disengage/ganking: Blink, Jaunts, Mirage Thrusts > > > > > > > > > Warrior tankiness: Permanent protection + paladins amulet, very good condi clear, etc. etc. etc. etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what phantasms could make damage like holo 123545 ,please concrete explanation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [11k Disenchanter](https://imgur.com/a/8PhBv) > > > > > > > [11k Defender](https://imgur.com/a/7zCSp) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mes :Blink have 30s cd，Jaunts only 450 rang ,Mirage Thrusts 600 rang ,Compare with thieves，'Infiltrator's Strike' 0cd 900 rang ('Infiltrator's Return' 1200rang) 'Shadow Shot' 0cd 900rang ' Infiltrator's Arrow' 0cd 900rang ,Steal 1200 rang（The maximum use of two times），limitless acceleration......(more is not to say) > > > > > > > > The above description mes engage/disengage/ganking than Thief? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Meta Mesmer: > > > > > > > - Blink is on a shorter cooldown than Shadowstep and travels 1200 range. > > > > > > > - You can Jaunt 3 times in a row and travel 1350 range. > > > > > > > - **You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range.** > > > > > > > - Portal has a range of 5000. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Total = 7550 range > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Meta Thief: > > > > > > > - Shadowstep 1200 range. > > > > > > > - Infiltrator's Arrow 3 times in a row to travel 2700 range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Total without target = 3900 range > > > > > > > - Steal 1200 range. > > > > > > > - Infiltrator's Strike 900 range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Total = 6000 range > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everyone can equipment paladins amulet so everyone have warrior tankiness（mes unable to provide permanent protection）？no choice of inspiration is only a little clear, warrior has a lot of resistance even not SB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, mesmer can get permanent protection lol... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both dodges and jaunts clear condis btw. You don't even need inspiration. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range." > > > > > > > > > > That is **exactly** what I said and you can. > > > > > > > > When people say range in that context you usually mean travel a distance in a line, you still have too many mirage thrusts attributed to vigor though as it would take 7.5s to get a dodge back. > > > > > > > > Edit: looking at original context they were discussing disengage so yes counting desert distortion mirrors and the oasis is not something you would do for disengage. > > > > > > 5-6 Mirage Thrusts is perfectly reasonable. Oasis can be used for disengage, it's not that hard. > > > > > > Even then, with 5-6 Mirage Thrusts instead of 9, Mirage still has the "equivalent to thief engage/disengage." This was the original point to begin with. > > > > Oh I don’t deny 5 (2 dodges, adventure runes, desert distortion and a mirror) for disengage just saying you’re really stretching meanings and context with 9 or 10 and you’re attributing too much endurance regen to vigor for a in a row claim. > > I agree with you. > > 5-6 is much more reasonable. Even a 7th if you were chasing after someone and you shattered a single illusion ahead of you and didn't go back to pick up the others. 9-10 is still possible, though hard to pull off. However, Mirages have many sources of vigor (heal + shatters) so I don't believe it's unreasonable to take into account the increased endurance regen. In terms of total evades allowed you do have to take vigor into account over the duration of a fight however many classes are capable of at least 50% vigor uptime (obviously we assume no strips or corrupts) and quite a few can get 100% without specifically traiting to do so which certainly makes it almost not worth talking about. However it will still take 7.5s to get one dodge back so at most you’d be getting back 2 dodges through vigor and natural regen through an in combat chaining of dodges/thrusts. To be honest other posters complaining at the vigor uptime seems a little silly when you realise a lot of people already have very high uptime, I don’t think vigor is that big of an issue and certainly not a mirage only problem if it is. Adventure runes though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > **>You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range. ** > > > > > > > > > > > >Because i can SAY* something stupid like thief can spam sword2 and travel 1 million range! > > > > > > > > > > > ^Thats related to your 9 mirage thrurst in a row . **After seeing i have doubts that you ever had said brain cells...If you can confirm your lie ,go ahead.** > > > > > > > > > > > You say BS, i did the same. Something you never had, cant die ;) > > > > > > > > > > > in fact, its combat mobility which is comes to absurd level compared to mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > What you struggle to understand ? Im not using google translate or anything but when put it there, its translated exactly how i wanted it to be . Keep pretending . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > 2. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > False Oasis + Vigor + Adventure Runes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > 4. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > 5. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Desert Distortion + 3 Illusions = 3 Mirage Mirrors > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > 7. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > 8. Mirage Mirror = Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > 9. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > 10. Mirage Cloak -> Mirage Thrust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10 Mirage Thrusts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I play mesmer too, and I obviously know more about it than you do. I haven't lied about anything lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can’t cover 5400 range with that though as the mirage mirrors from desert distortion appear where the clones died, you would also have to be in combat with something to have 3 clones out to begin with. Additionally you’d have to go back and forth for the mirrors, it’s far more useful just for the prolonged evasion in combat or triggering IH. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage mirror after false oasis appears after 4s so you’d have to go back to grab it if you’re running or thrusting away or wait 4s to use it which would give vigor enough time to refill half an endurance bar not a full endurance bar. This isn’t doing multiple mirage thrusts in a row, this is doing some, waiting, doing some more, waiting. You also seem to have a very warped idea of how vigor works, it is 50% endurance regen as it was nerfed a long time ago, that’s 2.5 endurance/s extra so it takes 7.5s to get a full dodge back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can see getting maybe 4-5 off in a row, that is chained btw but 9 is stretching it a lot, remember this isn’t WvW where the food gives a 5s dodge regeneration rate. Don’t get me wrong it’s still a decent distance all by itself, 2400-3000 is plenty far enough just there’s at least a little disception afoot in your claim of covering 5400 via 9 mirage thrusts in a row. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It depends. You're assuming the Mirage is running away. You could potentially Mirage Thrust 9 times in a row if you were chasing someone because your illusions would shatter ahead of you. However, yes, 5-6 Mirage Thrusts is more common and easier to pull off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s not what you said in your original statement thought, see below. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol，maybe only you can do this .Other one can only choose 3 talents and 4 weapons to get one of the abilities，but u can choose 7 talent and 8 weapons at same time.Please don't speak with your feelings and list all the skills in detail to explain that mesmer doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greater than holosmith-level damage: Most phantasms > > > > > > > > > > Thief engage/disengage/ganking: Blink, Jaunts, Mirage Thrusts > > > > > > > > > > Warrior tankiness: Permanent protection + paladins amulet, very good condi clear, etc. etc. etc. etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what phantasms could make damage like holo 123545 ,please concrete explanation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [11k Disenchanter](https://imgur.com/a/8PhBv) > > > > > > > > [11k Defender](https://imgur.com/a/7zCSp) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mes :Blink have 30s cd，Jaunts only 450 rang ,Mirage Thrusts 600 rang ,Compare with thieves，'Infiltrator's Strike' 0cd 900 rang ('Infiltrator's Return' 1200rang) 'Shadow Shot' 0cd 900rang ' Infiltrator's Arrow' 0cd 900rang ,Steal 1200 rang（The maximum use of two times），limitless acceleration......(more is not to say) > > > > > > > > > The above description mes engage/disengage/ganking than Thief? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Meta Mesmer: > > > > > > > > - Blink is on a shorter cooldown than Shadowstep and travels 1200 range. > > > > > > > > - You can Jaunt 3 times in a row and travel 1350 range. > > > > > > > > - **You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range.** > > > > > > > > - Portal has a range of 5000. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Total = 7550 range > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Meta Thief: > > > > > > > > - Shadowstep 1200 range. > > > > > > > > - Infiltrator's Arrow 3 times in a row to travel 2700 range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Total without target = 3900 range > > > > > > > > - Steal 1200 range. > > > > > > > > - Infiltrator's Strike 900 range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Total = 6000 range > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everyone can equipment paladins amulet so everyone have warrior tankiness（mes unable to provide permanent protection）？no choice of inspiration is only a little clear, warrior has a lot of resistance even not SB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, mesmer can get permanent protection lol... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both dodges and jaunts clear condis btw. You don't even need inspiration. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range." > > > > > > > > > > > > That is **exactly** what I said and you can. > > > > > > > > > > When people say range in that context you usually mean travel a distance in a line, you still have too many mirage thrusts attributed to vigor though as it would take 7.5s to get a dodge back. > > > > > > > > > > Edit: looking at original context they were discussing disengage so yes counting desert distortion mirrors and the oasis is not something you would do for disengage. > > > > > > > > 5-6 Mirage Thrusts is perfectly reasonable. Oasis can be used for disengage, it's not that hard. > > > > > > > > Even then, with 5-6 Mirage Thrusts instead of 9, Mirage still has the "equivalent to thief engage/disengage." This was the original point to begin with. > > > > > > Oh I don’t deny 5 (2 dodges, adventure runes, desert distortion and a mirror) for disengage just saying you’re really stretching meanings and context with 9 or 10 and you’re attributing too much endurance regen to vigor for a in a row claim. > > > > I agree with you. > > > > 5-6 is much more reasonable. Even a 7th if you were chasing after someone and you shattered a single illusion ahead of you and didn't go back to pick up the others. 9-10 is still possible, though hard to pull off. However, Mirages have many sources of vigor (heal + shatters) so I don't believe it's unreasonable to take into account the increased endurance regen. > > In terms of total evades allowed you do have to take vigor into account over the duration of a fight however many classes are capable of at least 50% vigor uptime (obviously we assume no strips or corrupts) and quite a few can get 100% without specifically traiting to do so which certainly makes it almost not worth talking about. However it will still take 7.5s to get one dodge back so at most you’d be getting back 2 dodges through vigor and natural regen through an in combat chaining of dodges/thrusts. > > To be honest other posters complaining at the vigor uptime seems a little silly when you realise a lot of people already have very high uptime, I don’t think vigor is that big of an issue and certainly not a mirage only problem if it is. Adventure runes though.... Any shatter + False Oasis with Adventure Runes is more than enough vigor to fuel 5-6 Mirage Thrusts. Yeah, you're correct. 2 initial dodges, heal, 3-4 more dodges depending on vigor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > > > > > lol，maybe only you can do this .Other one can only choose 3 talents and 4 weapons to get one of the abilities，but u can choose 7 talent and 8 weapons at same time.Please don't speak with your feelings and list all the skills in detail to explain that mesmer doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. > > > > > > Greater than holosmith-level damage: Most phantasms > > > Thief engage/disengage/ganking: Blink, Jaunts, Mirage Thrusts > > > Warrior tankiness: Permanent protection + paladins amulet, very good condi clear, etc. etc. etc. etc. > > > > what phantasms could make damage like holo 123545 ,please concrete explanation > > [11k Disenchanter](https://imgur.com/a/8PhBv) > [11k Defender](https://imgur.com/a/7zCSp) > > > > > mes :Blink have 30s cd，Jaunts only 450 rang ,Mirage Thrusts 600 rang ,Compare with thieves，'Infiltrator's Strike' 0cd 900 rang ('Infiltrator's Return' 1200rang) 'Shadow Shot' 0cd 900rang ' Infiltrator's Arrow' 0cd 900rang ,Steal 1200 rang（The maximum use of two times），limitless acceleration......(more is not to say) > > The above description mes engage/disengage/ganking than Thief? > > lol? > > Meta Mesmer: > - Blink is on a shorter cooldown than Shadowstep and travels 1200 range. > - You can Jaunt 3 times in a row and travel 1350 range. > - You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range. > - Portal has a range of 5000. > > Total = 7550 range > > Meta Thief: > - Shadowstep 1200 range. > - Infiltrator's Arrow 3 times in a row to travel 2700 range. > > Total without target = 3900 range > - Steal 1200 range. > - Infiltrator's Strike 900 range. > > Total = 6000 range > > > > > everyone can equipment paladins amulet so everyone have warrior tankiness（mes unable to provide permanent protection）？no choice of inspiration is only a little clear, warrior has a lot of resistance even not SB > > > > > > Yes, mesmer can get permanent protection lol... > > Both dodges and jaunts clear condis btw. You don't even need inspiration. No one is stoping you from play D/P inf arrow inf arrow dash dash dash inf arrow chann vigor dash signet dash inf arrow tons of swiftness Range - 7050 mirage thrust x 4 (2 + adv rune + vigor) (you actually walk farther way than waiting for the false oasis to spawn a mirror and use mirage thrust) blink x1 staff x1 (just a little extra 1200 for you here) jaunt x 3 no swiftness at all Range - 6150 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said: > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said: > > > You guys are trying to quantify performance by comparing pointless numbers on paper as if they actually mean anything lol. In practice Mesmer is S tier and will remain so unless Anet makes drastic changes. The class is broken and most top tier streamers/players agree. You can defend your class all you want but most of the pvp community is calling for Mesmer nerfs and **when** they happen it'll be justified. > > > > Then you haven’t been keeping up with the post have you? We are saying it needs them. Only Ithliwen is saying it’s fine but by now everyone should know to take her with a grain of salt. > > > > What we ARE saying is that what people want to nerf are either the wrong things or are too much. You can’t call for nerfs for one class you wouldn’t want on yours and that’s exactly what’s happening. > > More like some Mesmers in this thread are suggesting nerfs that in no way are going to remove it from the S tier bracket and are hoping Anet is dumb enough to take the bait so they can enjoy their broken class for longer. Spoiler: A 15% nerf to phantasms is nothing and does nothing to remove Mesmer from S tier because Mirage/Chrono needs nerfs that affect functionality. Reducing damage on phantasms WILL help. And as I have said that’s a starting point, it’s easier to take away a little then a lot and have to go back and add. Dodging while CC'd needs to go. That’s the mechanic introduced with Mirage(agaisnt Mesmer Main wishes mind) so undoubtably here to stay. Instant stun through mantras need to go. No shit? That’s why Confounding Suggestions needs to be reworked, you’ve read a piece of my suggestions maybe read the rest? Reworking CS eliminates the stun, MoD is only a daze that CS turns into a stun. Adventures runes need to go. I see no reason why. Chaos traitline needs to have significant nerfs to boon application. It’s Stab is being nerfed, but more nerfs makes it useless and the trait line as a whole really has to have staff which means you don’t have GS for burst. Sword ambush shouldnt be a leap kitten. Sword ambush is fine. Once CS is removed it’s only a 1/4s daze with low base damage. Interupts are thing and always have been. Elusive mind needs to be deleted. Agreed, once again a trait no one wanted yet was introduced anyway. Remove the stun break and add a second condi clear, etc and the trait is fine. Then and only then will minor percentage nerfs mean anything. No, because we should have multiple minor nerfs and buffs through the year. And if you actually read anything I posted they aren’t all minor. Removing CS is major, limiting phantasms is major and actually fixes a lot of current problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > > > > > > > lol，maybe only you can do this .Other one can only choose 3 talents and 4 weapons to get one of the abilities，but u can choose 7 talent and 8 weapons at same time.Please don't speak with your feelings and list all the skills in detail to explain that mesmer doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. > > > > > > > > Greater than holosmith-level damage: Most phantasms > > > > Thief engage/disengage/ganking: Blink, Jaunts, Mirage Thrusts > > > > Warrior tankiness: Permanent protection + paladins amulet, very good condi clear, etc. etc. etc. etc. > > > > > > what phantasms could make damage like holo 123545 ,please concrete explanation > > > > [11k Disenchanter](https://imgur.com/a/8PhBv) > > [11k Defender](https://imgur.com/a/7zCSp) > > > > > > > > mes :Blink have 30s cd，Jaunts only 450 rang ,Mirage Thrusts 600 rang ,Compare with thieves，'Infiltrator's Strike' 0cd 900 rang ('Infiltrator's Return' 1200rang) 'Shadow Shot' 0cd 900rang ' Infiltrator's Arrow' 0cd 900rang ,Steal 1200 rang（The maximum use of two times），limitless acceleration......(more is not to say) > > > The above description mes engage/disengage/ganking than Thief? > > > > lol? > > > > Meta Mesmer: > > - Blink is on a shorter cooldown than Shadowstep and travels 1200 range. > > - You can Jaunt 3 times in a row and travel 1350 range. > > - You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range. > > - Portal has a range of 5000. > > > > Total = 7550 range > > > > Meta Thief: > > - Shadowstep 1200 range. > > - Infiltrator's Arrow 3 times in a row to travel 2700 range. > > > > Total without target = 3900 range > > - Steal 1200 range. > > - Infiltrator's Strike 900 range. > > > > Total = 6000 range > > > > > > > > everyone can equipment paladins amulet so everyone have warrior tankiness（mes unable to provide permanent protection）？no choice of inspiration is only a little clear, warrior has a lot of resistance even not SB > > > > > > > > > > Yes, mesmer can get permanent protection lol... > > > > Both dodges and jaunts clear condis btw. You don't even need inspiration. > > No one is stoping you from play D/P > > inf arrow > inf arrow > dash > dash > dash > inf arrow > chann vigor > dash > signet > dash > inf arrow > tons of swiftness > > Range - 7050 > > mirage x 4 (2 + adv rune + vigor) (you actually walk farther way than waiting for the false oasis to spawn and use mirage thrust) > blink x1 > staff x1 (just a little extra 1200 for you here) > jaunt x 3 > no swiftness at all > > Range - 6150 You forgot Portal. Add 5000 range to the Mirage one and you get 11150. Also, Mirages gain Super Speed when they enter Mirage Cloak, so their movement speed is actually faster than a daredevil's in combat, and equivalent to one out of combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team. > > > > > > > > (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three. > > > > > > > > > > > > lol，maybe only you can do this .Other one can only choose 3 talents and 4 weapons to get one of the abilities，but u can choose 7 talent and 8 weapons at same time.Please don't speak with your feelings and list all the skills in detail to explain that mesmer doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. > > > > > > > > > > Greater than holosmith-level damage: Most phantasms > > > > > Thief engage/disengage/ganking: Blink, Jaunts, Mirage Thrusts > > > > > Warrior tankiness: Permanent protection + paladins amulet, very good condi clear, etc. etc. etc. etc. > > > > > > > > what phantasms could make damage like holo 123545 ,please concrete explanation > > > > > > [11k Disenchanter](https://imgur.com/a/8PhBv) > > > [11k Defender](https://imgur.com/a/7zCSp) > > > > > > > > > > > mes :Blink have 30s cd，Jaunts only 450 rang ,Mirage Thrusts 600 rang ,Compare with thieves，'Infiltrator's Strike' 0cd 900 rang ('Infiltrator's Return' 1200rang) 'Shadow Shot' 0cd 900rang ' Infiltrator's Arrow' 0cd 900rang ,Steal 1200 rang（The maximum use of two times），limitless acceleration......(more is not to say) > > > > The above description mes engage/disengage/ganking than Thief? > > > > > > lol? > > > > > > Meta Mesmer: > > > - Blink is on a shorter cooldown than Shadowstep and travels 1200 range. > > > - You can Jaunt 3 times in a row and travel 1350 range. > > > - You can Mirage Thrust like 9x in a row if you really wanted to and travel 5400 range. > > > - Portal has a range of 5000. > > > > > > Total = 7550 range > > > > > > Meta Thief: > > > - Shadowstep 1200 range. > > > - Infiltrator's Arrow 3 times in a row to travel 2700 range. > > > > > > Total without target = 3900 range > > > - Steal 1200 range. > > > - Infiltrator's Strike 900 range. > > > > > > Total = 6000 range > > > > > > > > > > > everyone can equipment paladins amulet so everyone have warrior tankiness（mes unable to provide permanent protection）？no choice of inspiration is only a little clear, warrior has a lot of resistance even not SB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, mesmer can get permanent protection lol... > > > > > > Both dodges and jaunts clear condis btw. You don't even need inspiration. > > > > No one is stoping you from play D/P > > > > inf arrow > > inf arrow > > dash > > dash > > dash > > inf arrow > > chann vigor > > dash > > signet > > dash > > inf arrow > > tons of swiftness > > > > Range - 7050 > > > > mirage x 4 (2 + adv rune + vigor) (you actually walk farther way than waiting for the false oasis to spawn and use mirage thrust) > > blink x1 > > staff x1 (just a little extra 1200 for you here) > > jaunt x 3 > > no swiftness at all > > > > Range - 6150 > > You forgot Portal. Add 5000 range to the Mirage one and you get 11150. > > Also, Mirages gain Super Speed when they enter Mirage Cloak, so their movement speed is actually faster than a daredevil's in combat, and equivalent to one out of combat. Yes, with portal mirage wins. In combat dd doesn't give any chance to escape, tons of swiftness vs 4sec of superspeed, and boot in more 1200 from steal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"Daishi.6027" said: > A good smart Thief is just as unkillable True but its impact is much lower. Disenchanter Mirage is favored in 90% of possible matchups. That's too much. Thief (at least the power based builds) can't kill 50% of its opponents as it is much more vulnerable while attacking. Thief is +1. Disenchanter is a 100% duellist. > Roll some condi bomb. To be fair even as a Power Reaper (against which a Disenchanter Mirage is heavily favored) player I can confirm that. A Spite/Curses/Reaper Signet based condi overload build works surprisingly well. But it's a one trick pony as Signet of Spite has a huge telegraph and won't hit a second time. Against other classes it is possible to set up Signet of Spite with a stun... against a Mirage... well... Elusive Mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Meh ,playing is much better than sitting entire day on forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoopop.5630 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"Odik.4587" said: > You proven absolutely nothing, while i proven you are LIAR and clueless about my class. I asked exact to do 5400 9 times in a row and you cant keep up with your superior mesmer understanding ? > you try sooooooooooooooo hard to justify the amount of reason why mesmer aren't really OP other then agreeing that they need a few tweak on certain things when it's clear as DAY they are OVERALL out performing A lot of the other class in a lot of aspects. Shadow has straight up explained everything and has shown why it's OP. When you have a bunch of top tier players around the same level agreeing the class is BROKEN then it's for good reasons it's because it is. IN no game during PVP should a class be able to do almost everything /be on par with other class in terms of bunkering, DPS, Mobility, or even stealthing.... the class in general needs to be tone down it's the same shit we had with scourges last season and WHY it needed to be tone down. When meta becomes 2 or 3 possibly of the same class as a team comp IT's because it's Broken beyond believes....If you don't play this game in a competitive level or SEEN it at it's competitive moments you won't really know why it needs the tone down. Try playing Holo against 2 mesmer and scourge at middle it becomes a completely toxic match due to having to be in range to actually land some actual dps to then be melt quickly due to the amount of CC breaking/burst it can offer with low to no real skills needed. I mean.... If you play AT's daily you'll see MOST semi finals teams run double mesmer + 1thief for the instant death burst. It's just impossible to stop it from happening things could be completely different if it was JUST 1 mesmer in a team comp however thats not happening at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"zoopop.5630" said: > Shadow has straight up explained everything and has shown why it's OP. > Except he didn't. Already proved that excepting portal, dd has more 900range (and that's counting mes has a staff too, otherwise dd has more 2100 range, without staff and on combat dd has more 3200 range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > @"zoopop.5630" said: > > > Shadow has straight up explained everything and has shown why it's OP. > > > > Except he didn't. > Already proved that excepting portal, dd has more 900range (and that's counting mes has a staff too, otherwise dd has more 2100 range, without staff and on combat dd has more 3200 range. > All this back and forth about who's faster is pointless and just one dimension of conquest which isn't a footrace. Mesmer's combat effectiveness, utility, matchups, overall pick rate in casual and competitive, build diversity, these are more relevant topics. Good players look at these when judging the state of a profession.. Think about the categories I brought up .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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