Legatus.3608 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > > Basically if you were to compare thief and mesmer, they're very similar classes except for the fact that thief gives up its HP pool for the things it has, and mesmer GAINS clones instead of giving something up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure it has some advantages, but it's hard to argue that it's better than simple direct near instant damage that a thief has. People complain about the mesmer GS shatter burst, but thief on one set, can attempt a similar play more frequently that doesn't rely on an awkward bounce, and can do so without blowing a major tool that is part of your survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem I mostly have is people arguing that the nerfs that came for mes was not enough. Where on top of hard damage number nerfs a significant amount of might stacking was cut off which is more impactful than people realize and brings it in line with the passive sustain and survivability nerfs, and corresponding damage reductions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People will continue to complain about mirage's ability to doge/immune, but it's still the same few cooldowns majoirty of the cast has, and mirage unlike them uses those base doges for offensive purposes, and expends their entire pool of resources to amplify one of the cooldowns doge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vigor supports some of it, but is a grand total of 3 sec per shatter unless dueling line which some of the popular builds didn't even run. > > > > > > > > > This entire thing is a farce, people will learn to counter it with enough time and it wont seem like such a big deal, just like clasic 4/4/6 power shatter from wayyy back when everyone called it OP before learning how to doge it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (1)**Blowing your survivability, well I disagree with that completely. It's true in a direct sense - clones contribute to your survivability because it creates more confusion and more targets to tab through for your opponents.** (3)But it's not true in the grand picture, the clones you lost cost you almost nothing. In the worst case you were relying on the clones to confuse your opponent and they didn't, in the best case the clone wasn't confusing anyone and you shattered it. (2)**The passive damage from it is basically irrelevant - the main purpose of that clone in your build is to be shattered and it does relatively little outside of that role or the role of confusing your opponent.** (3)You will simply spam more clones, and you have enough evasion to not worry about losing those clones to begin with. They are, like I said, merely a free bonus for being a mesmer on top of all those defenses where thief lost a ton of HP and teamfight capability to get those evades. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (1) I was referring more to blink being a meaty cooldown that can be strong defensively as part of the gap closer when at any range 450 for jaunt is awkward, or needing it for key removal depending on the build vs match-up... Which either or is lot of the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (2) I'm well aware of their useless-ness outside a resource, that is what the point I was making, but if you agree then you should understand why it's not really something you should have to give up damage for, which was a significant point with the feb patch. Either way in Conquest, Stronghold, those 2v2 maps (no one plays cuz there is no queue for them), and 1v1 duels (an unsupported format); Only bads lose to visual noise. This is a noob curve EVERYONE eventually goes through, complains about being brokenly OP, then surpasses because the gimmick wears off quick. Maybe it screws with tab targeting a little, at worst. These are absolutely the people we SHOULD NOT balance based on their opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (3) Clones are not super easy to produce, nor are they fun to. > > > > > > > Thief by comparison gets it's resource automatically or has skills and traits that create more. Thief can stay in stealth or get some distance and regain. Attacking when it suits them. > > > > > > > For Mesmers most need a target and line of sight. Along with that they are spawned by weapon skills where majority don't do anything of note, some skills with decent 'react-able to' cast times, and others with lengthy cooldowns. > > > > > > > Mesmers with main hand sword usually get 1 clone on mainhand, that spawns at your target and is easy to cleave, doing so will prevent the mesmer from swaping with. Majority of the offhands get 1 phantasm. > > > > > > > On Staff you get 2 phants and a clone, and 1 clone. > > > > > > > GS is 1 clone 1 phant unless traited. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On average that is a grand total of 2 illusions per weapon set, until traits. > > > > > > > As for traits virtually no one runs deceptive evasion anymore, and Self-deception gives you a clone on only jaunt cuz no one really runs the other deceptions seriously. > > > > > > > Unless chrono where you can do a combo twice and flood a room **you cannot just "spam" clones.** (and this thread is about mirage) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It might be tomato-tomahto and to closely comparing classes but as a resource that is required I think it's very inferior to the ini system, and just a bad version of the adrenaline system. You have to be doing something to someone already to get the resources to actually harm them, as opposed to you know, just harming them. The exception to this, being one fairly avoidable combo, that something like the dual sword/staff builds has 0 access to. > > > > > > > Plus although the damage especially on phants has gone up since the feb patch, outside of well placed shatters, it's damage is still out classed by war and thief. Both btw having access to strong unblockable hits, negating a major defense type. (of invuln/doge/blocks/immunities type things) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you define as spamming but the numbers don't add up to what you suggest. Also if not being kind of inferior, it's at least fiddly, and it's still a kill-able resource. > > > > > > > Ultimately it's not a bonus, it's a burden with a fancy gimmick. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since the feb patch's global buffs and reworking things yes I agree Mesmer doesn't give up anything stat wise to have clones, it used to, not anymore; that is because having clones as a resource has it's own drawbacks that by it's default nature demands something in exchange that would normally not be a problem for the rest of the roster. > > > > > > > > > > > > You need to make your points more concise. I'm not going to spend decades deciphering your paragraphs, and a lot of the further comments you're typing don't match with earlier comments. You need to be consistent as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Your original comment was that thief can mimick mesmer burst but without blowing its defensive cooldowns to do so. I commented that clones aren't much of a defensive cooldown and are more of a constant in any mesmer build. Now you're saying you were talking about blink, which has really nothing to do with any of this. > > > > > > 2. The point isn't that you need to give up damage for clones, the point is that thief gives up HP and teamfighting for mobility/dodging and mesmer gains clones instead of giving anything up for its mobility/dodging. > > > > > > 3. Yes, they are super easy to produce depending on build or timing, and it doesn't matter whether they're fun, they exist regardless. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for clones dying to aoe, well, that means they did their job soaking damage instead of the mesmer, does it not? You traded ̶d̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ shatter potential for your own survival in that instance. A thief would just be on the floor bleeding out because he for some reason happened to be standing in a circle for a second too long. > > > > > > > > > > 1. I said they can mimic the burst more frequently. That means employing back stab combos, pistol whip combos, S/D advances at a reasonable distance with mostly spending initiative, which automatically refills and requires no ramp unless you've burnt it all, and even then it's as simple as just standing there. On top of that, thief has steal. Mesmer by comparison has blink which is safer as a mobility or defensive/re-positioning tool. This is fine, except Mesmer has ramp for damage and more limited options to engage presuming the gs combo is avoided, assuming if GS is even being run. > > > > > > > > > > 2. With the drawbacks of clones, including the ramp required for damage (outside of the one combo); that is enough of a trade off for the mobility. Mesmer doesn't actually doge more than many other classes, and some including thief and ranger still has more. > > > > > If you don't know what I'm talking about I listed those drawbacks prior. > > > > > > > > > > 3. Please list how it is super easy, and then please follow up with in what way after drawing that conclusion that it's not super limited, especially by contrast to thief. > > > > > They are "there" yes, but just saying "it's easy and they are there!" leans towards ignorance of the classes and how it compares to everything else. Which since day 1 has been the leading cause of complains about Mesmer. > > > > > I guess it's "super easy" in that 1 cooldown button push = 1 clone (sometimes 2). But a staple ½ cast time, and 12 sec c/d for 1 clone is far from "spammable" and easy to just replenish. Also compared to many other classes that use resources it's super easy to punish both before and after it's creation. > > > > > > > > > > And no AoEs typically hit the clones AND the Mesmer, and being almost just as squishy depending on the AoE would be equally as dead, or a sliver before at best. > > > > > Real difference is when mes escapes the red circle by any normal means that any class can use, it's resources that they have to take time to create are now gone. > > > > > > > > 1. I think I understand what you were saying now about blink, but the point you made is irrelevant - backstab is both harder to land and does less damage than a mesmer shatter, ISN'T AOE, and the damage from backstab burst chains were ALSO reduced significantly in the latest patch as well as the damage of all thief meta build autos and LS/FS. Mesmer received no such damage nerf that I can find (I saw one trait change from 15 to 10% damage bonus), in fact shatters were not even MENTIONED anywhere in the patch notes except for an update to the tooltip of distortion, and mesmers were already pushing thieves out of their role before this patch. > > > > 2. What drawback of clones? They don't have a kitten drawback, they're providing you offensive and defensive bonuses before they are shattered. Backstab requires you to somehow find your opponent facing away from you while not blocking, dodging, or otherwise using anything defensive in a space of 3 seconds, shatter requires you to have clones, it's not different in level of difficulty. > > > > 3. Mirror blade: 8s cd, Illusory leap 12s cd, phantasmal berserker 15s cd, mirage thrust (essentially 20s cd without vigor on an ammo of 2). jaunt 20s cd up to 3 ammo, phantasmal mage 30s cd. This is assuming you are not running imagined burden and/or mirror images and/or decoy. You're telling me this is not a sufficient number of tools to generate 3 clones every time you want to shatter? If you're telling me this isn't enough tools for you to generate clones then I don't know what to tell you. These skills occupy such a large portion of your skill bar that you'd have to be ACTUALLY AFK in order to not be generating clones, otherwise you'd run out of non-clone-cooldowns to use trying to do things that don't generate clones. That's how difficult it is to NOT generate clones on a mesmer. > > > > > > > > I have a mesmer, I've played it quite extensively and compared to my thief (which is my main) it's basically better at everything you want to do in the game. I'm frankly about to start maining my mesmer just by the virtue of it being absolutely batshit broken for so kitten long. > > > > > > 1. Shatters have one very meticulous engage combo in which it is difficult to dodge them, otherwise the moment you see clones making a beeline towards you, you should be prepared to dodge. Backstab isn't hard to land, you're in stealth, your enemy intrinsically has no idea which direction you will be approaching/striking from other than being able vaguely guess you're going for the backstab. > > > 2. Clones are paper, that's the drawback, they can be killed before they even actually shatter and that doesn't fix the damage coefficient on the rest of the shatters that actually make it. > > > 3. You can only shatter once every 12 seconds, having thousands of clones is useless once your main form of attack nullified. And if you don't interrupt Signet of Illusions you deserve to get hit again. > > > > > > Wow suddenly thief is no longer the curbstomp king. Doesn' t mean mesmer is broken by any measure. > > 1. No, sorry, its harder to land backstab than shatter. I'm not even going to debate this with you because its common sense. > > 2. Yes clones are paper, they're also absorbing damage for you if they die so you don't get to whine about it. It's NOT a drawback. > > 3. Every 12th second is actually more often than thief can backstab+steal > > > > Sure, thieves aren't "curbstomp" kings anymore (i assume that's a metaphor for +1) but since +1 and decap was the only thing thief was good at, you literally pushed thief out of the meta because of how kitten your class is. > > 1. Lol k, waah my one trick pony doesn't work anymore. > 2. They're not 'absorbing' damage unless you specifically are you using single target, single attack skills on them in which case it sounds like you need to look up the definition of cleaving and git gud. > 3. Nah fam we talking about backstab here, Steal is a separate skill. And as numerous people have pointed out Backstab is far less telegraphed. > > I don't think the debate is what was making you stupid. Yeah sure shatter is easier to perform, EASIER TO PERFORM DROP THE MIC (Insert rekt.jpg) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > @"ezd.6359" > > > > The problem with it is Chaos Mesmers are nearly unkillable and do too much damage at the same time. I mean we don’t sacrifice things as much as an Elementalist to do damage + be evasive. > > > > I played the iDisenchanter build on Metabattle with only difference being Desert Distortion. My shatters were doing ~3K damage every hit and I could keep up many boons such as protection, regen, stab, fury etc. For defense I had Distortion, 2 Evades, Frenzy, 2-3 Mirrors from Desert Distortion and permanent vigor so 1 evade per 7,5 seconds. I’ve never had a problem killing any class except Scourge (I played kinda bad that time) and Spellbreaker (that player was godlike, I wish I could duel that person again) in 27-28 matches played. Ah, and an S/D Thief, I got ganked but I used Mirage Thrust over a smoke field an ally left, reset the fight and killed the thief. It was just easy because when they tried to burst me I mostly had some endurance up or I was near a Mirror. > > > > Most reasonable people think that if 2 players with same skill level are fighting, Mesmer player will most likely win. > > > > About the burst-build; in the past, Mesmer had to sacrifice some defense to burst people. Now with Mirage, the evades cover the defense part and burst build became a bit... umm... annoying to deal with. > > tl;dr - i played offseason , it was very productive ! > aside that ,for fun was in group of 4 mesmers on AT ,only this 3 ppl were clueless how to play it... we nearly lost to team with no mesmers : thief fb scourge engi and someone else ,dont remember... thing is ... point is : facerolling over broken class with 0 understanding almost cost game vs bad players XD > I alrdy want mesmer to be nerfed to hell , like seriously , chronophantasma and phantasm spammers are kinda annoying...(cuz my team dying to it 24/7) > Your proposal for mirage nerfs thats most braidnead that i was ever reading ... Those traits are bad and you want to nerf them ? Really ? DE is much better than SUMMON 1 CLONE, USE DECEPTION AND U GET 1 MORE! while you just dodge and get a clone(why the hell u are afraid of a CLONE to add DAZE on it??? what is your problem?you want to make shatter builds worse by adding daze on clone? that would be shattered anyway?:D) ... Soulbeast have 33% condition damage reduction (20% scrapper iirc) which is million times better than -20% condition duration of damaging conditions...? Nomad endurance is not permanent vigor and said FB gets 3 stats 150 each while in pve 250x3. They are not even new traits, they have their counterparts which are better even . > If anet find something OP something and nerf it , thats would be amazing :) How all this people arent bored to death sitting on forum entire day Self Deception is so great with any kind of Mirage shatter build. I would value a single charge of Jaunt just to create a clone as far less valuable than a bar of endurance for Deceptive Evasion. Or even two Jaunts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 > @"Razor.6392" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > What?!?!?! You mean the thing Thief has been able to do since launch?!?!? > > > > > > > > Few tips, Mesmer only has 3 uninterruptable sources of stealth, each one lasts 3 seconds, so you're exaggerating. EM gives exhaustion now so a lot of people are ditching it since it's about as kitten as could be. Reflects are tied to evasions which has an ICD. Daze is only spammable with Mirage sword, stop exaggerating. Invuln happens for about 4 seconds every 50 seconds, stop exaggerating. > > > > > > > > We get it, you don't like the purple butterfly class, stop exaggerating. > > > > > > This is considering thief meta builds that let him fully perform his role: > > > > > > Thief has the lowest health. > > > > > > Thief is more susceptible to cc. > > > > > > Thief, outside a pathetic skill in daredevil, has 0 access to blocks or stability. > > > > > > Thief can't burst for 20k health without compromising the entirety of his build, survivability and role. > > > > > > Thief has negligible ranged damage. > > > > > > Thief has moderate to low access to hard cc. > > > > > > Thief has zero invulnerabilities. > > > > > > Thief doesn't clutter the screen with AI. > > > > > > > > > Should I keep going man? > > > > > > > Thief has the highest access to stealth > > Thief has the best disengage that has ever existed > > Thief has the best in combat mobility of any class > > Thief is immune to chill aside from the movement speed penalty > > Thief doesn't need to clutter the screen with AI if they're consistently not part of the visible spectrum > > Thief has access to the fastest casting and most spammable interrupt in the game that itself cannot be interrupted > > Thief has the most options for endurance regen > > The only reason thief is 'more susceptible to cc' is because comparatively every other class is 'more susceptible to cc' when there's a stun break on dodge trait which Mesmers continually wanted ANet to rework before the exhaustion 'solution'. But I don't see you moaning about stability spam on other classes. > > > > Note, none of my post was about disparaging thief in any way, they have their fair share of issues. My post was about dispelling the perma uptime hysteria that's running rampant on this 'forum'. > > You mention permastealth as if 1. that was viable in pvp and 2. meta thief builds ever relied on it. > I didn't mention permastealth at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Basically if you were to compare thief and mesmer, they're very similar classes except for the fact that thief gives up its HP pool for the things it has, and mesmer GAINS clones instead of giving something up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure it has some advantages, but it's hard to argue that it's better than simple direct near instant damage that a thief has. People complain about the mesmer GS shatter burst, but thief on one set, can attempt a similar play more frequently that doesn't rely on an awkward bounce, and can do so without blowing a major tool that is part of your survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem I mostly have is people arguing that the nerfs that came for mes was not enough. Where on top of hard damage number nerfs a significant amount of might stacking was cut off which is more impactful than people realize and brings it in line with the passive sustain and survivability nerfs, and corresponding damage reductions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People will continue to complain about mirage's ability to doge/immune, but it's still the same few cooldowns majoirty of the cast has, and mirage unlike them uses those base doges for offensive purposes, and expends their entire pool of resources to amplify one of the cooldowns doge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vigor supports some of it, but is a grand total of 3 sec per shatter unless dueling line which some of the popular builds didn't even run. > > > > > > > > > > This entire thing is a farce, people will learn to counter it with enough time and it wont seem like such a big deal, just like clasic 4/4/6 power shatter from wayyy back when everyone called it OP before learning how to doge it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (1)**Blowing your survivability, well I disagree with that completely. It's true in a direct sense - clones contribute to your survivability because it creates more confusion and more targets to tab through for your opponents.** (3)But it's not true in the grand picture, the clones you lost cost you almost nothing. In the worst case you were relying on the clones to confuse your opponent and they didn't, in the best case the clone wasn't confusing anyone and you shattered it. (2)**The passive damage from it is basically irrelevant - the main purpose of that clone in your build is to be shattered and it does relatively little outside of that role or the role of confusing your opponent.** (3)You will simply spam more clones, and you have enough evasion to not worry about losing those clones to begin with. They are, like I said, merely a free bonus for being a mesmer on top of all those defenses where thief lost a ton of HP and teamfight capability to get those evades. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (1) I was referring more to blink being a meaty cooldown that can be strong defensively as part of the gap closer when at any range 450 for jaunt is awkward, or needing it for key removal depending on the build vs match-up... Which either or is lot of the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (2) I'm well aware of their useless-ness outside a resource, that is what the point I was making, but if you agree then you should understand why it's not really something you should have to give up damage for, which was a significant point with the feb patch. Either way in Conquest, Stronghold, those 2v2 maps (no one plays cuz there is no queue for them), and 1v1 duels (an unsupported format); Only bads lose to visual noise. This is a noob curve EVERYONE eventually goes through, complains about being brokenly OP, then surpasses because the gimmick wears off quick. Maybe it screws with tab targeting a little, at worst. These are absolutely the people we SHOULD NOT balance based on their opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (3) Clones are not super easy to produce, nor are they fun to. > > > > > > > > Thief by comparison gets it's resource automatically or has skills and traits that create more. Thief can stay in stealth or get some distance and regain. Attacking when it suits them. > > > > > > > > For Mesmers most need a target and line of sight. Along with that they are spawned by weapon skills where majority don't do anything of note, some skills with decent 'react-able to' cast times, and others with lengthy cooldowns. > > > > > > > > Mesmers with main hand sword usually get 1 clone on mainhand, that spawns at your target and is easy to cleave, doing so will prevent the mesmer from swaping with. Majority of the offhands get 1 phantasm. > > > > > > > > On Staff you get 2 phants and a clone, and 1 clone. > > > > > > > > GS is 1 clone 1 phant unless traited. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On average that is a grand total of 2 illusions per weapon set, until traits. > > > > > > > > As for traits virtually no one runs deceptive evasion anymore, and Self-deception gives you a clone on only jaunt cuz no one really runs the other deceptions seriously. > > > > > > > > Unless chrono where you can do a combo twice and flood a room **you cannot just "spam" clones.** (and this thread is about mirage) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It might be tomato-tomahto and to closely comparing classes but as a resource that is required I think it's very inferior to the ini system, and just a bad version of the adrenaline system. You have to be doing something to someone already to get the resources to actually harm them, as opposed to you know, just harming them. The exception to this, being one fairly avoidable combo, that something like the dual sword/staff builds has 0 access to. > > > > > > > > Plus although the damage especially on phants has gone up since the feb patch, outside of well placed shatters, it's damage is still out classed by war and thief. Both btw having access to strong unblockable hits, negating a major defense type. (of invuln/doge/blocks/immunities type things) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you define as spamming but the numbers don't add up to what you suggest. Also if not being kind of inferior, it's at least fiddly, and it's still a kill-able resource. > > > > > > > > Ultimately it's not a bonus, it's a burden with a fancy gimmick. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since the feb patch's global buffs and reworking things yes I agree Mesmer doesn't give up anything stat wise to have clones, it used to, not anymore; that is because having clones as a resource has it's own drawbacks that by it's default nature demands something in exchange that would normally not be a problem for the rest of the roster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You need to make your points more concise. I'm not going to spend decades deciphering your paragraphs, and a lot of the further comments you're typing don't match with earlier comments. You need to be consistent as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Your original comment was that thief can mimick mesmer burst but without blowing its defensive cooldowns to do so. I commented that clones aren't much of a defensive cooldown and are more of a constant in any mesmer build. Now you're saying you were talking about blink, which has really nothing to do with any of this. > > > > > > > 2. The point isn't that you need to give up damage for clones, the point is that thief gives up HP and teamfighting for mobility/dodging and mesmer gains clones instead of giving anything up for its mobility/dodging. > > > > > > > 3. Yes, they are super easy to produce depending on build or timing, and it doesn't matter whether they're fun, they exist regardless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for clones dying to aoe, well, that means they did their job soaking damage instead of the mesmer, does it not? You traded ̶d̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ shatter potential for your own survival in that instance. A thief would just be on the floor bleeding out because he for some reason happened to be standing in a circle for a second too long. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. I said they can mimic the burst more frequently. That means employing back stab combos, pistol whip combos, S/D advances at a reasonable distance with mostly spending initiative, which automatically refills and requires no ramp unless you've burnt it all, and even then it's as simple as just standing there. On top of that, thief has steal. Mesmer by comparison has blink which is safer as a mobility or defensive/re-positioning tool. This is fine, except Mesmer has ramp for damage and more limited options to engage presuming the gs combo is avoided, assuming if GS is even being run. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. With the drawbacks of clones, including the ramp required for damage (outside of the one combo); that is enough of a trade off for the mobility. Mesmer doesn't actually doge more than many other classes, and some including thief and ranger still has more. > > > > > > If you don't know what I'm talking about I listed those drawbacks prior. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Please list how it is super easy, and then please follow up with in what way after drawing that conclusion that it's not super limited, especially by contrast to thief. > > > > > > They are "there" yes, but just saying "it's easy and they are there!" leans towards ignorance of the classes and how it compares to everything else. Which since day 1 has been the leading cause of complains about Mesmer. > > > > > > I guess it's "super easy" in that 1 cooldown button push = 1 clone (sometimes 2). But a staple ½ cast time, and 12 sec c/d for 1 clone is far from "spammable" and easy to just replenish. Also compared to many other classes that use resources it's super easy to punish both before and after it's creation. > > > > > > > > > > > > And no AoEs typically hit the clones AND the Mesmer, and being almost just as squishy depending on the AoE would be equally as dead, or a sliver before at best. > > > > > > Real difference is when mes escapes the red circle by any normal means that any class can use, it's resources that they have to take time to create are now gone. > > > > > > > > > > 1. I think I understand what you were saying now about blink, but the point you made is irrelevant - backstab is both harder to land and does less damage than a mesmer shatter, ISN'T AOE, and the damage from backstab burst chains were ALSO reduced significantly in the latest patch as well as the damage of all thief meta build autos and LS/FS. Mesmer received no such damage nerf that I can find (I saw one trait change from 15 to 10% damage bonus), in fact shatters were not even MENTIONED anywhere in the patch notes except for an update to the tooltip of distortion, and mesmers were already pushing thieves out of their role before this patch. > > > > > 2. What drawback of clones? They don't have a kitten drawback, they're providing you offensive and defensive bonuses before they are shattered. Backstab requires you to somehow find your opponent facing away from you while not blocking, dodging, or otherwise using anything defensive in a space of 3 seconds, shatter requires you to have clones, it's not different in level of difficulty. > > > > > 3. Mirror blade: 8s cd, Illusory leap 12s cd, phantasmal berserker 15s cd, mirage thrust (essentially 20s cd without vigor on an ammo of 2). jaunt 20s cd up to 3 ammo, phantasmal mage 30s cd. This is assuming you are not running imagined burden and/or mirror images and/or decoy. You're telling me this is not a sufficient number of tools to generate 3 clones every time you want to shatter? If you're telling me this isn't enough tools for you to generate clones then I don't know what to tell you. These skills occupy such a large portion of your skill bar that you'd have to be ACTUALLY AFK in order to not be generating clones, otherwise you'd run out of non-clone-cooldowns to use trying to do things that don't generate clones. That's how difficult it is to NOT generate clones on a mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > I have a mesmer, I've played it quite extensively and compared to my thief (which is my main) it's basically better at everything you want to do in the game. I'm frankly about to start maining my mesmer just by the virtue of it being absolutely batshit broken for so kitten long. > > > > > > > > 1. Shatters have one very meticulous engage combo in which it is difficult to dodge them, otherwise the moment you see clones making a beeline towards you, you should be prepared to dodge. Backstab isn't hard to land, you're in stealth, your enemy intrinsically has no idea which direction you will be approaching/striking from other than being able vaguely guess you're going for the backstab. > > > > 2. Clones are paper, that's the drawback, they can be killed before they even actually shatter and that doesn't fix the damage coefficient on the rest of the shatters that actually make it. > > > > 3. You can only shatter once every 12 seconds, having thousands of clones is useless once your main form of attack nullified. And if you don't interrupt Signet of Illusions you deserve to get hit again. > > > > > > > > Wow suddenly thief is no longer the curbstomp king. Doesn' t mean mesmer is broken by any measure. > > > 1. No, sorry, its harder to land backstab than shatter. I'm not even going to debate this with you because its common sense. > > > 2. Yes clones are paper, they're also absorbing damage for you if they die so you don't get to whine about it. It's NOT a drawback. > > > 3. Every 12th second is actually more often than thief can backstab+steal > > > > > > Sure, thieves aren't "curbstomp" kings anymore (i assume that's a metaphor for +1) but since +1 and decap was the only thing thief was good at, you literally pushed thief out of the meta because of how kitten your class is. > > > > 1. Lol k, waah my one trick pony doesn't work anymore. > > 2. They're not 'absorbing' damage unless you specifically are you using single target, single attack skills on them in which case it sounds like you need to look up the definition of cleaving and git gud. > > 3. Nah fam we talking about backstab here, Steal is a separate skill. And as numerous people have pointed out Backstab is far less telegraphed. > > > > I don't think the debate is what was making you stupid. Yeah sure shatter is easier to perform, > > EASIER TO PERFORM > > DROP THE MIC > > (Insert rekt.jpg) You aren't great at reading are you, you can't stop all of backstabs damage by cleaving. Then again thief isn't a scholar profession, so it's not surprising. And at this point, it's definitely not the debate making you stupid. Literally you can prevent 70% of a Mesmers damage by not being an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hylo.1968 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 Mirage Cloak has 1s dodge window compared to normal is almost 15% more powerful ( 3/4 sec) Just fix this , leaving the mirage mechanic alone. i suggest 1/2 sec due to use skills while evading. This Might fix the issue and, why not, the dodge spam <3<3 Sorry for my bad english Kiwi<3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 > @"Hylo.1968" said: > Mirage Cloak has 1s dodge window compared to normal is almost 15% more powerful ( 3/4 sec) > Just fix this , leaving the mirage mechanic alone. > i suggest 1/2 sec due to use skills while evading. This Might fix the issue and, why not, the dodge spam <3<3 > Sorry for my bad english > Kiwi<3 No, then Mirage Cloak not only gives no movement compared to a regular dodge, but is now even weaker than one. Mirage Cloak is the mirage mechanic, this would gut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hylo.1968 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Hylo.1968" said: > > Mirage Cloak has 1s dodge window compared to normal is almost 15% more powerful ( 3/4 sec) > > Just fix this , leaving the mirage mechanic alone. > > i suggest 1/2 sec due to use skills while evading. This Might fix the issue and, why not, the dodge spam <3<3 > > Sorry for my bad english > > Kiwi<3 > > No, then Mirage Cloak not only gives no movement compared to a regular dodge, but is now even weaker than one. Mirage Cloak is the mirage mechanic, this would gut it. No mentions to Sword ambush? Mirage Needs to be nerfed in some ways, and no this wouldn't gut it due to superspeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 > @"Hylo.1968" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Hylo.1968" said: > > > Mirage Cloak has 1s dodge window compared to normal is almost 15% more powerful ( 3/4 sec) > > > Just fix this , leaving the mirage mechanic alone. > > > i suggest 1/2 sec due to use skills while evading. This Might fix the issue and, why not, the dodge spam <3<3 > > > Sorry for my bad english > > > Kiwi<3 > > > > No, then Mirage Cloak not only gives no movement compared to a regular dodge, but is now even weaker than one. Mirage Cloak is the mirage mechanic, this would gut it. > > No mentions to Sword ambush? > Mirage Needs to be nerfed in some ways, and no this wouldn't gut it due to superspeed. > Yes it would, the superspeed was not enough seeing as it only works when moving forward. Sword Ambush does need looking at but it's a niche case and not a reason to destroy the specialization mechanic. Sword Ambush could use something other than daze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hylo.1968 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Hylo.1968" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"Hylo.1968" said: > > > > Mirage Cloak has 1s dodge window compared to normal is almost 15% more powerful ( 3/4 sec) > > > > Just fix this , leaving the mirage mechanic alone. > > > > i suggest 1/2 sec due to use skills while evading. This Might fix the issue and, why not, the dodge spam <3<3 > > > > Sorry for my bad english > > > > Kiwi<3 > > > > > > No, then Mirage Cloak not only gives no movement compared to a regular dodge, but is now even weaker than one. Mirage Cloak is the mirage mechanic, this would gut it. > > > > No mentions to Sword ambush? > > Mirage Needs to be nerfed in some ways, and no this wouldn't gut it due to superspeed. > > > > Sword Ambush could use something other than daze. Yas agree with this, i'm actually running a non metabuild , http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAR8cnELD1ohFMDWoBMMjlTDjMAkCCK+NwJ4F88JEFyOA-jZxHAB2XGo/9H++BAo8BBAgrAAA pretty OP if well played. The issue still up on the Mirage Cloack duration imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor.6392 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > What?!?!?! You mean the thing Thief has been able to do since launch?!?!? > > > > > > > > > > Few tips, Mesmer only has 3 uninterruptable sources of stealth, each one lasts 3 seconds, so you're exaggerating. EM gives exhaustion now so a lot of people are ditching it since it's about as kitten as could be. Reflects are tied to evasions which has an ICD. Daze is only spammable with Mirage sword, stop exaggerating. Invuln happens for about 4 seconds every 50 seconds, stop exaggerating. > > > > > > > > > > We get it, you don't like the purple butterfly class, stop exaggerating. > > > > > > > > This is considering thief meta builds that let him fully perform his role: > > > > > > > > Thief has the lowest health. > > > > > > > > Thief is more susceptible to cc. > > > > > > > > Thief, outside a pathetic skill in daredevil, has 0 access to blocks or stability. > > > > > > > > Thief can't burst for 20k health without compromising the entirety of his build, survivability and role. > > > > > > > > Thief has negligible ranged damage. > > > > > > > > Thief has moderate to low access to hard cc. > > > > > > > > Thief has zero invulnerabilities. > > > > > > > > Thief doesn't clutter the screen with AI. > > > > > > > > > > > > Should I keep going man? > > > > > > > > > > Thief has the highest access to stealth > > > Thief has the best disengage that has ever existed > > > Thief has the best in combat mobility of any class > > > Thief is immune to chill aside from the movement speed penalty > > > Thief doesn't need to clutter the screen with AI if they're consistently not part of the visible spectrum > > > Thief has access to the fastest casting and most spammable interrupt in the game that itself cannot be interrupted > > > Thief has the most options for endurance regen > > > The only reason thief is 'more susceptible to cc' is because comparatively every other class is 'more susceptible to cc' when there's a stun break on dodge trait which Mesmers continually wanted ANet to rework before the exhaustion 'solution'. But I don't see you moaning about stability spam on other classes. > > > > > > Note, none of my post was about disparaging thief in any way, they have their fair share of issues. My post was about dispelling the perma uptime hysteria that's running rampant on this 'forum'. > > > > You mention permastealth as if 1. that was viable in pvp and 2. meta thief builds ever relied on it. > > > > I didn't mention permastealth at all. You mentioned their stealthing capabilities _twice_ when conquest is anti-stealth and current meta thief barely has access to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor.6392 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > What?!?!?! You mean the thing Thief has been able to do since launch?!?!? > > > > > > > > > > Few tips, Mesmer only has 3 uninterruptable sources of stealth, each one lasts 3 seconds, so you're exaggerating. EM gives exhaustion now so a lot of people are ditching it since it's about as kitten as could be. Reflects are tied to evasions which has an ICD. Daze is only spammable with Mirage sword, stop exaggerating. Invuln happens for about 4 seconds every 50 seconds, stop exaggerating. > > > > > > > > > > We get it, you don't like the purple butterfly class, stop exaggerating. > > > > > > > > This is considering thief meta builds that let him fully perform his role: > > > > > > > > Thief has the lowest health. > > > > > > > > Thief is more susceptible to cc. > > > > > > > > Thief, outside a pathetic skill in daredevil, has 0 access to blocks or stability. > > > > > > > > Thief can't burst for 20k health without compromising the entirety of his build, survivability and role. > > > > > > > > Thief has negligible ranged damage. > > > > > > > > Thief has moderate to low access to hard cc. > > > > > > > > Thief has zero invulnerabilities. > > > > > > > > Thief doesn't clutter the screen with AI. > > > > > > > > > > > > Should I keep going man? > > > > > > > > > > Thief has the highest access to stealth > > > Thief has the best disengage that has ever existed > > > Thief has the best in combat mobility of any class > > > Thief is immune to chill aside from the movement speed penalty > > > Thief doesn't need to clutter the screen with AI if they're consistently not part of the visible spectrum > > > Thief has access to the fastest casting and most spammable interrupt in the game that itself cannot be interrupted > > > Thief has the most options for endurance regen > > > The only reason thief is 'more susceptible to cc' is because comparatively every other class is 'more susceptible to cc' when there's a stun break on dodge trait which Mesmers continually wanted ANet to rework before the exhaustion 'solution'. But I don't see you moaning about stability spam on other classes. > > > > > > Note, none of my post was about disparaging thief in any way, they have their fair share of issues. My post was about dispelling the perma uptime hysteria that's running rampant on this 'forum'. > > > > You mention permastealth as if 1. that was viable in pvp and 2. meta thief builds ever relied on it. > > > > I didn't mention permastealth at all. You mentioned their stealthing capabilities _twice_ when conquest is anti-stealth and current meta thief barely has access to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 > @"Hylo.1968" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Hylo.1968" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"Hylo.1968" said: > > > > > Mirage Cloak has 1s dodge window compared to normal is almost 15% more powerful ( 3/4 sec) > > > > > Just fix this , leaving the mirage mechanic alone. > > > > > i suggest 1/2 sec due to use skills while evading. This Might fix the issue and, why not, the dodge spam <3<3 > > > > > Sorry for my bad english > > > > > Kiwi<3 > > > > > > > > No, then Mirage Cloak not only gives no movement compared to a regular dodge, but is now even weaker than one. Mirage Cloak is the mirage mechanic, this would gut it. > > > > > > No mentions to Sword ambush? > > > Mirage Needs to be nerfed in some ways, and no this wouldn't gut it due to superspeed. > > > > > > > > Sword Ambush could use something other than daze. > > Yas agree with this, i'm actually running a non metabuild , http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAR8cnELD1ohFMDWoBMMjlTDjMAkCCK+NwJ4F88JEFyOA-jZxHAB2XGo/9H++BAo8BBAgrAAA pretty OP if well played. > The issue still up on the Mirage Cloack duration imo. > > Well I'd like it if they replaced some of the hard dodge generation on some of the utilities just to like some endurance generation a little like DD has, like perhaps switch the Mirror generation on Sands through Glass to just hard endurance regen if you break a stun or evade something with it. Maybe just less hard dodge generation and more soft dodge generation. Or maybe rework a couple of the traits to give some endurance regen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Razor.6392" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > What?!?!?! You mean the thing Thief has been able to do since launch?!?!? > > > > > > > > > > > > Few tips, Mesmer only has 3 uninterruptable sources of stealth, each one lasts 3 seconds, so you're exaggerating. EM gives exhaustion now so a lot of people are ditching it since it's about as kitten as could be. Reflects are tied to evasions which has an ICD. Daze is only spammable with Mirage sword, stop exaggerating. Invuln happens for about 4 seconds every 50 seconds, stop exaggerating. > > > > > > > > > > > > We get it, you don't like the purple butterfly class, stop exaggerating. > > > > > > > > > > This is considering thief meta builds that let him fully perform his role: > > > > > > > > > > Thief has the lowest health. > > > > > > > > > > Thief is more susceptible to cc. > > > > > > > > > > Thief, outside a pathetic skill in daredevil, has 0 access to blocks or stability. > > > > > > > > > > Thief can't burst for 20k health without compromising the entirety of his build, survivability and role. > > > > > > > > > > Thief has negligible ranged damage. > > > > > > > > > > Thief has moderate to low access to hard cc. > > > > > > > > > > Thief has zero invulnerabilities. > > > > > > > > > > Thief doesn't clutter the screen with AI. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should I keep going man? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief has the highest access to stealth > > > > Thief has the best disengage that has ever existed > > > > Thief has the best in combat mobility of any class > > > > Thief is immune to chill aside from the movement speed penalty > > > > Thief doesn't need to clutter the screen with AI if they're consistently not part of the visible spectrum > > > > Thief has access to the fastest casting and most spammable interrupt in the game that itself cannot be interrupted > > > > Thief has the most options for endurance regen > > > > The only reason thief is 'more susceptible to cc' is because comparatively every other class is 'more susceptible to cc' when there's a stun break on dodge trait which Mesmers continually wanted ANet to rework before the exhaustion 'solution'. But I don't see you moaning about stability spam on other classes. > > > > > > > > Note, none of my post was about disparaging thief in any way, they have their fair share of issues. My post was about dispelling the perma uptime hysteria that's running rampant on this 'forum'. > > > > > > You mention permastealth as if 1. that was viable in pvp and 2. meta thief builds ever relied on it. > > > > > > > I didn't mention permastealth at all. > > You mentioned their stealthing capabilities _twice_ when conquest is anti-stealth and current meta thief barely has access to it. Is stealth not an important part of Thiefs toolkit? It seems worth mentioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Basically if you were to compare thief and mesmer, they're very similar classes except for the fact that thief gives up its HP pool for the things it has, and mesmer GAINS clones instead of giving something up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure it has some advantages, but it's hard to argue that it's better than simple direct near instant damage that a thief has. People complain about the mesmer GS shatter burst, but thief on one set, can attempt a similar play more frequently that doesn't rely on an awkward bounce, and can do so without blowing a major tool that is part of your survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem I mostly have is people arguing that the nerfs that came for mes was not enough. Where on top of hard damage number nerfs a significant amount of might stacking was cut off which is more impactful than people realize and brings it in line with the passive sustain and survivability nerfs, and corresponding damage reductions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People will continue to complain about mirage's ability to doge/immune, but it's still the same few cooldowns majoirty of the cast has, and mirage unlike them uses those base doges for offensive purposes, and expends their entire pool of resources to amplify one of the cooldowns doge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vigor supports some of it, but is a grand total of 3 sec per shatter unless dueling line which some of the popular builds didn't even run. > > > > > > > > > > > This entire thing is a farce, people will learn to counter it with enough time and it wont seem like such a big deal, just like clasic 4/4/6 power shatter from wayyy back when everyone called it OP before learning how to doge it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (1)**Blowing your survivability, well I disagree with that completely. It's true in a direct sense - clones contribute to your survivability because it creates more confusion and more targets to tab through for your opponents.** (3)But it's not true in the grand picture, the clones you lost cost you almost nothing. In the worst case you were relying on the clones to confuse your opponent and they didn't, in the best case the clone wasn't confusing anyone and you shattered it. (2)**The passive damage from it is basically irrelevant - the main purpose of that clone in your build is to be shattered and it does relatively little outside of that role or the role of confusing your opponent.** (3)You will simply spam more clones, and you have enough evasion to not worry about losing those clones to begin with. They are, like I said, merely a free bonus for being a mesmer on top of all those defenses where thief lost a ton of HP and teamfight capability to get those evades. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (1) I was referring more to blink being a meaty cooldown that can be strong defensively as part of the gap closer when at any range 450 for jaunt is awkward, or needing it for key removal depending on the build vs match-up... Which either or is lot of the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (2) I'm well aware of their useless-ness outside a resource, that is what the point I was making, but if you agree then you should understand why it's not really something you should have to give up damage for, which was a significant point with the feb patch. Either way in Conquest, Stronghold, those 2v2 maps (no one plays cuz there is no queue for them), and 1v1 duels (an unsupported format); Only bads lose to visual noise. This is a noob curve EVERYONE eventually goes through, complains about being brokenly OP, then surpasses because the gimmick wears off quick. Maybe it screws with tab targeting a little, at worst. These are absolutely the people we SHOULD NOT balance based on their opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (3) Clones are not super easy to produce, nor are they fun to. > > > > > > > > > Thief by comparison gets it's resource automatically or has skills and traits that create more. Thief can stay in stealth or get some distance and regain. Attacking when it suits them. > > > > > > > > > For Mesmers most need a target and line of sight. Along with that they are spawned by weapon skills where majority don't do anything of note, some skills with decent 'react-able to' cast times, and others with lengthy cooldowns. > > > > > > > > > Mesmers with main hand sword usually get 1 clone on mainhand, that spawns at your target and is easy to cleave, doing so will prevent the mesmer from swaping with. Majority of the offhands get 1 phantasm. > > > > > > > > > On Staff you get 2 phants and a clone, and 1 clone. > > > > > > > > > GS is 1 clone 1 phant unless traited. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On average that is a grand total of 2 illusions per weapon set, until traits. > > > > > > > > > As for traits virtually no one runs deceptive evasion anymore, and Self-deception gives you a clone on only jaunt cuz no one really runs the other deceptions seriously. > > > > > > > > > Unless chrono where you can do a combo twice and flood a room **you cannot just "spam" clones.** (and this thread is about mirage) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It might be tomato-tomahto and to closely comparing classes but as a resource that is required I think it's very inferior to the ini system, and just a bad version of the adrenaline system. You have to be doing something to someone already to get the resources to actually harm them, as opposed to you know, just harming them. The exception to this, being one fairly avoidable combo, that something like the dual sword/staff builds has 0 access to. > > > > > > > > > Plus although the damage especially on phants has gone up since the feb patch, outside of well placed shatters, it's damage is still out classed by war and thief. Both btw having access to strong unblockable hits, negating a major defense type. (of invuln/doge/blocks/immunities type things) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you define as spamming but the numbers don't add up to what you suggest. Also if not being kind of inferior, it's at least fiddly, and it's still a kill-able resource. > > > > > > > > > Ultimately it's not a bonus, it's a burden with a fancy gimmick. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since the feb patch's global buffs and reworking things yes I agree Mesmer doesn't give up anything stat wise to have clones, it used to, not anymore; that is because having clones as a resource has it's own drawbacks that by it's default nature demands something in exchange that would normally not be a problem for the rest of the roster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You need to make your points more concise. I'm not going to spend decades deciphering your paragraphs, and a lot of the further comments you're typing don't match with earlier comments. You need to be consistent as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Your original comment was that thief can mimick mesmer burst but without blowing its defensive cooldowns to do so. I commented that clones aren't much of a defensive cooldown and are more of a constant in any mesmer build. Now you're saying you were talking about blink, which has really nothing to do with any of this. > > > > > > > > 2. The point isn't that you need to give up damage for clones, the point is that thief gives up HP and teamfighting for mobility/dodging and mesmer gains clones instead of giving anything up for its mobility/dodging. > > > > > > > > 3. Yes, they are super easy to produce depending on build or timing, and it doesn't matter whether they're fun, they exist regardless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for clones dying to aoe, well, that means they did their job soaking damage instead of the mesmer, does it not? You traded ̶d̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ shatter potential for your own survival in that instance. A thief would just be on the floor bleeding out because he for some reason happened to be standing in a circle for a second too long. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. I said they can mimic the burst more frequently. That means employing back stab combos, pistol whip combos, S/D advances at a reasonable distance with mostly spending initiative, which automatically refills and requires no ramp unless you've burnt it all, and even then it's as simple as just standing there. On top of that, thief has steal. Mesmer by comparison has blink which is safer as a mobility or defensive/re-positioning tool. This is fine, except Mesmer has ramp for damage and more limited options to engage presuming the gs combo is avoided, assuming if GS is even being run. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. With the drawbacks of clones, including the ramp required for damage (outside of the one combo); that is enough of a trade off for the mobility. Mesmer doesn't actually doge more than many other classes, and some including thief and ranger still has more. > > > > > > > If you don't know what I'm talking about I listed those drawbacks prior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Please list how it is super easy, and then please follow up with in what way after drawing that conclusion that it's not super limited, especially by contrast to thief. > > > > > > > They are "there" yes, but just saying "it's easy and they are there!" leans towards ignorance of the classes and how it compares to everything else. Which since day 1 has been the leading cause of complains about Mesmer. > > > > > > > I guess it's "super easy" in that 1 cooldown button push = 1 clone (sometimes 2). But a staple ½ cast time, and 12 sec c/d for 1 clone is far from "spammable" and easy to just replenish. Also compared to many other classes that use resources it's super easy to punish both before and after it's creation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And no AoEs typically hit the clones AND the Mesmer, and being almost just as squishy depending on the AoE would be equally as dead, or a sliver before at best. > > > > > > > Real difference is when mes escapes the red circle by any normal means that any class can use, it's resources that they have to take time to create are now gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. I think I understand what you were saying now about blink, but the point you made is irrelevant - backstab is both harder to land and does less damage than a mesmer shatter, ISN'T AOE, and the damage from backstab burst chains were ALSO reduced significantly in the latest patch as well as the damage of all thief meta build autos and LS/FS. Mesmer received no such damage nerf that I can find (I saw one trait change from 15 to 10% damage bonus), in fact shatters were not even MENTIONED anywhere in the patch notes except for an update to the tooltip of distortion, and mesmers were already pushing thieves out of their role before this patch. > > > > > > 2. What drawback of clones? They don't have a kitten drawback, they're providing you offensive and defensive bonuses before they are shattered. Backstab requires you to somehow find your opponent facing away from you while not blocking, dodging, or otherwise using anything defensive in a space of 3 seconds, shatter requires you to have clones, it's not different in level of difficulty. > > > > > > 3. Mirror blade: 8s cd, Illusory leap 12s cd, phantasmal berserker 15s cd, mirage thrust (essentially 20s cd without vigor on an ammo of 2). jaunt 20s cd up to 3 ammo, phantasmal mage 30s cd. This is assuming you are not running imagined burden and/or mirror images and/or decoy. You're telling me this is not a sufficient number of tools to generate 3 clones every time you want to shatter? If you're telling me this isn't enough tools for you to generate clones then I don't know what to tell you. These skills occupy such a large portion of your skill bar that you'd have to be ACTUALLY AFK in order to not be generating clones, otherwise you'd run out of non-clone-cooldowns to use trying to do things that don't generate clones. That's how difficult it is to NOT generate clones on a mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a mesmer, I've played it quite extensively and compared to my thief (which is my main) it's basically better at everything you want to do in the game. I'm frankly about to start maining my mesmer just by the virtue of it being absolutely batshit broken for so kitten long. > > > > > > > > > > 1. Shatters have one very meticulous engage combo in which it is difficult to dodge them, otherwise the moment you see clones making a beeline towards you, you should be prepared to dodge. Backstab isn't hard to land, you're in stealth, your enemy intrinsically has no idea which direction you will be approaching/striking from other than being able vaguely guess you're going for the backstab. > > > > > 2. Clones are paper, that's the drawback, they can be killed before they even actually shatter and that doesn't fix the damage coefficient on the rest of the shatters that actually make it. > > > > > 3. You can only shatter once every 12 seconds, having thousands of clones is useless once your main form of attack nullified. And if you don't interrupt Signet of Illusions you deserve to get hit again. > > > > > > > > > > Wow suddenly thief is no longer the curbstomp king. Doesn' t mean mesmer is broken by any measure. > > > > 1. No, sorry, its harder to land backstab than shatter. I'm not even going to debate this with you because its common sense. > > > > 2. Yes clones are paper, they're also absorbing damage for you if they die so you don't get to whine about it. It's NOT a drawback. > > > > 3. Every 12th second is actually more often than thief can backstab+steal > > > > > > > > Sure, thieves aren't "curbstomp" kings anymore (i assume that's a metaphor for +1) but since +1 and decap was the only thing thief was good at, you literally pushed thief out of the meta because of how kitten your class is. > > > > > > 1. Lol k, waah my one trick pony doesn't work anymore. > > > 2. They're not 'absorbing' damage unless you specifically are you using single target, single attack skills on them in which case it sounds like you need to look up the definition of cleaving and git gud. > > > 3. Nah fam we talking about backstab here, Steal is a separate skill. And as numerous people have pointed out Backstab is far less telegraphed. > > > > > > I don't think the debate is what was making you stupid. Yeah sure shatter is easier to perform, > > > > EASIER TO PERFORM > > > > DROP THE MIC > > > > (Insert rekt.jpg) > > You aren't great at reading are you, you can't stop all of backstabs damage by cleaving. Then again thief isn't a scholar profession, so it's not surprising. And at this point, it's definitely not the debate making you stupid. > > Literally you can prevent 70% of a Mesmers damage by not being an idiot. You can prevent every class' damage by not being an idiot, this is a pointless argument. You can stop a great deal of backstab damage by simply facing the direction of the thief. You don't even need to blow your dodges unless you have some reason to believe the thief will be able to get behind you. As a mesmer, if you see a thief go into stealth and are expecting a backstab, the best counter would probably to wait 1 second and press sword 2 or staff 4 or any of your stealths and just keep facing the thief just in case. Odds are you will break the combo just by doing that alone, which means the thief just wasted a shit ton of initiative going into stealth and missed his steal or wasted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Basically if you were to compare thief and mesmer, they're very similar classes except for the fact that thief gives up its HP pool for the things it has, and mesmer GAINS clones instead of giving something up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure it has some advantages, but it's hard to argue that it's better than simple direct near instant damage that a thief has. People complain about the mesmer GS shatter burst, but thief on one set, can attempt a similar play more frequently that doesn't rely on an awkward bounce, and can do so without blowing a major tool that is part of your survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem I mostly have is people arguing that the nerfs that came for mes was not enough. Where on top of hard damage number nerfs a significant amount of might stacking was cut off which is more impactful than people realize and brings it in line with the passive sustain and survivability nerfs, and corresponding damage reductions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People will continue to complain about mirage's ability to doge/immune, but it's still the same few cooldowns majoirty of the cast has, and mirage unlike them uses those base doges for offensive purposes, and expends their entire pool of resources to amplify one of the cooldowns doge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vigor supports some of it, but is a grand total of 3 sec per shatter unless dueling line which some of the popular builds didn't even run. > > > > > > > > > > > > This entire thing is a farce, people will learn to counter it with enough time and it wont seem like such a big deal, just like clasic 4/4/6 power shatter from wayyy back when everyone called it OP before learning how to doge it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (1)**Blowing your survivability, well I disagree with that completely. It's true in a direct sense - clones contribute to your survivability because it creates more confusion and more targets to tab through for your opponents.** (3)But it's not true in the grand picture, the clones you lost cost you almost nothing. In the worst case you were relying on the clones to confuse your opponent and they didn't, in the best case the clone wasn't confusing anyone and you shattered it. (2)**The passive damage from it is basically irrelevant - the main purpose of that clone in your build is to be shattered and it does relatively little outside of that role or the role of confusing your opponent.** (3)You will simply spam more clones, and you have enough evasion to not worry about losing those clones to begin with. They are, like I said, merely a free bonus for being a mesmer on top of all those defenses where thief lost a ton of HP and teamfight capability to get those evades. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (1) I was referring more to blink being a meaty cooldown that can be strong defensively as part of the gap closer when at any range 450 for jaunt is awkward, or needing it for key removal depending on the build vs match-up... Which either or is lot of the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (2) I'm well aware of their useless-ness outside a resource, that is what the point I was making, but if you agree then you should understand why it's not really something you should have to give up damage for, which was a significant point with the feb patch. Either way in Conquest, Stronghold, those 2v2 maps (no one plays cuz there is no queue for them), and 1v1 duels (an unsupported format); Only bads lose to visual noise. This is a noob curve EVERYONE eventually goes through, complains about being brokenly OP, then surpasses because the gimmick wears off quick. Maybe it screws with tab targeting a little, at worst. These are absolutely the people we SHOULD NOT balance based on their opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (3) Clones are not super easy to produce, nor are they fun to. > > > > > > > > > > Thief by comparison gets it's resource automatically or has skills and traits that create more. Thief can stay in stealth or get some distance and regain. Attacking when it suits them. > > > > > > > > > > For Mesmers most need a target and line of sight. Along with that they are spawned by weapon skills where majority don't do anything of note, some skills with decent 'react-able to' cast times, and others with lengthy cooldowns. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmers with main hand sword usually get 1 clone on mainhand, that spawns at your target and is easy to cleave, doing so will prevent the mesmer from swaping with. Majority of the offhands get 1 phantasm. > > > > > > > > > > On Staff you get 2 phants and a clone, and 1 clone. > > > > > > > > > > GS is 1 clone 1 phant unless traited. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On average that is a grand total of 2 illusions per weapon set, until traits. > > > > > > > > > > As for traits virtually no one runs deceptive evasion anymore, and Self-deception gives you a clone on only jaunt cuz no one really runs the other deceptions seriously. > > > > > > > > > > Unless chrono where you can do a combo twice and flood a room **you cannot just "spam" clones.** (and this thread is about mirage) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It might be tomato-tomahto and to closely comparing classes but as a resource that is required I think it's very inferior to the ini system, and just a bad version of the adrenaline system. You have to be doing something to someone already to get the resources to actually harm them, as opposed to you know, just harming them. The exception to this, being one fairly avoidable combo, that something like the dual sword/staff builds has 0 access to. > > > > > > > > > > Plus although the damage especially on phants has gone up since the feb patch, outside of well placed shatters, it's damage is still out classed by war and thief. Both btw having access to strong unblockable hits, negating a major defense type. (of invuln/doge/blocks/immunities type things) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you define as spamming but the numbers don't add up to what you suggest. Also if not being kind of inferior, it's at least fiddly, and it's still a kill-able resource. > > > > > > > > > > Ultimately it's not a bonus, it's a burden with a fancy gimmick. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since the feb patch's global buffs and reworking things yes I agree Mesmer doesn't give up anything stat wise to have clones, it used to, not anymore; that is because having clones as a resource has it's own drawbacks that by it's default nature demands something in exchange that would normally not be a problem for the rest of the roster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You need to make your points more concise. I'm not going to spend decades deciphering your paragraphs, and a lot of the further comments you're typing don't match with earlier comments. You need to be consistent as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Your original comment was that thief can mimick mesmer burst but without blowing its defensive cooldowns to do so. I commented that clones aren't much of a defensive cooldown and are more of a constant in any mesmer build. Now you're saying you were talking about blink, which has really nothing to do with any of this. > > > > > > > > > 2. The point isn't that you need to give up damage for clones, the point is that thief gives up HP and teamfighting for mobility/dodging and mesmer gains clones instead of giving anything up for its mobility/dodging. > > > > > > > > > 3. Yes, they are super easy to produce depending on build or timing, and it doesn't matter whether they're fun, they exist regardless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for clones dying to aoe, well, that means they did their job soaking damage instead of the mesmer, does it not? You traded ̶d̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ shatter potential for your own survival in that instance. A thief would just be on the floor bleeding out because he for some reason happened to be standing in a circle for a second too long. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. I said they can mimic the burst more frequently. That means employing back stab combos, pistol whip combos, S/D advances at a reasonable distance with mostly spending initiative, which automatically refills and requires no ramp unless you've burnt it all, and even then it's as simple as just standing there. On top of that, thief has steal. Mesmer by comparison has blink which is safer as a mobility or defensive/re-positioning tool. This is fine, except Mesmer has ramp for damage and more limited options to engage presuming the gs combo is avoided, assuming if GS is even being run. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. With the drawbacks of clones, including the ramp required for damage (outside of the one combo); that is enough of a trade off for the mobility. Mesmer doesn't actually doge more than many other classes, and some including thief and ranger still has more. > > > > > > > > If you don't know what I'm talking about I listed those drawbacks prior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Please list how it is super easy, and then please follow up with in what way after drawing that conclusion that it's not super limited, especially by contrast to thief. > > > > > > > > They are "there" yes, but just saying "it's easy and they are there!" leans towards ignorance of the classes and how it compares to everything else. Which since day 1 has been the leading cause of complains about Mesmer. > > > > > > > > I guess it's "super easy" in that 1 cooldown button push = 1 clone (sometimes 2). But a staple ½ cast time, and 12 sec c/d for 1 clone is far from "spammable" and easy to just replenish. Also compared to many other classes that use resources it's super easy to punish both before and after it's creation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And no AoEs typically hit the clones AND the Mesmer, and being almost just as squishy depending on the AoE would be equally as dead, or a sliver before at best. > > > > > > > > Real difference is when mes escapes the red circle by any normal means that any class can use, it's resources that they have to take time to create are now gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. I think I understand what you were saying now about blink, but the point you made is irrelevant - backstab is both harder to land and does less damage than a mesmer shatter, ISN'T AOE, and the damage from backstab burst chains were ALSO reduced significantly in the latest patch as well as the damage of all thief meta build autos and LS/FS. Mesmer received no such damage nerf that I can find (I saw one trait change from 15 to 10% damage bonus), in fact shatters were not even MENTIONED anywhere in the patch notes except for an update to the tooltip of distortion, and mesmers were already pushing thieves out of their role before this patch. > > > > > > > 2. What drawback of clones? They don't have a kitten drawback, they're providing you offensive and defensive bonuses before they are shattered. Backstab requires you to somehow find your opponent facing away from you while not blocking, dodging, or otherwise using anything defensive in a space of 3 seconds, shatter requires you to have clones, it's not different in level of difficulty. > > > > > > > 3. Mirror blade: 8s cd, Illusory leap 12s cd, phantasmal berserker 15s cd, mirage thrust (essentially 20s cd without vigor on an ammo of 2). jaunt 20s cd up to 3 ammo, phantasmal mage 30s cd. This is assuming you are not running imagined burden and/or mirror images and/or decoy. You're telling me this is not a sufficient number of tools to generate 3 clones every time you want to shatter? If you're telling me this isn't enough tools for you to generate clones then I don't know what to tell you. These skills occupy such a large portion of your skill bar that you'd have to be ACTUALLY AFK in order to not be generating clones, otherwise you'd run out of non-clone-cooldowns to use trying to do things that don't generate clones. That's how difficult it is to NOT generate clones on a mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a mesmer, I've played it quite extensively and compared to my thief (which is my main) it's basically better at everything you want to do in the game. I'm frankly about to start maining my mesmer just by the virtue of it being absolutely batshit broken for so kitten long. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Shatters have one very meticulous engage combo in which it is difficult to dodge them, otherwise the moment you see clones making a beeline towards you, you should be prepared to dodge. Backstab isn't hard to land, you're in stealth, your enemy intrinsically has no idea which direction you will be approaching/striking from other than being able vaguely guess you're going for the backstab. > > > > > > 2. Clones are paper, that's the drawback, they can be killed before they even actually shatter and that doesn't fix the damage coefficient on the rest of the shatters that actually make it. > > > > > > 3. You can only shatter once every 12 seconds, having thousands of clones is useless once your main form of attack nullified. And if you don't interrupt Signet of Illusions you deserve to get hit again. > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow suddenly thief is no longer the curbstomp king. Doesn' t mean mesmer is broken by any measure. > > > > > 1. No, sorry, its harder to land backstab than shatter. I'm not even going to debate this with you because its common sense. > > > > > 2. Yes clones are paper, they're also absorbing damage for you if they die so you don't get to whine about it. It's NOT a drawback. > > > > > 3. Every 12th second is actually more often than thief can backstab+steal > > > > > > > > > > Sure, thieves aren't "curbstomp" kings anymore (i assume that's a metaphor for +1) but since +1 and decap was the only thing thief was good at, you literally pushed thief out of the meta because of how kitten your class is. > > > > > > > > 1. Lol k, waah my one trick pony doesn't work anymore. > > > > 2. They're not 'absorbing' damage unless you specifically are you using single target, single attack skills on them in which case it sounds like you need to look up the definition of cleaving and git gud. > > > > 3. Nah fam we talking about backstab here, Steal is a separate skill. And as numerous people have pointed out Backstab is far less telegraphed. > > > > > > > > I don't think the debate is what was making you stupid. Yeah sure shatter is easier to perform, > > > > > > EASIER TO PERFORM > > > > > > DROP THE MIC > > > > > > (Insert rekt.jpg) > > > > You aren't great at reading are you, you can't stop all of backstabs damage by cleaving. Then again thief isn't a scholar profession, so it's not surprising. And at this point, it's definitely not the debate making you stupid. > > > > Literally you can prevent 70% of a Mesmers damage by not being an idiot. > > You can prevent every class' damage by not being an idiot, this is a pointless argument. You can stop a great deal of backstab damage by simply facing the direction of the thief. You don't even need to blow your dodges unless you have some reason to believe the thief will be able to get behind you. As a mesmer, if you see a thief go into stealth and are expecting a backstab, the best counter would probably to wait 1 second and press sword 2 or staff 4 or any of your stealths and just keep facing the thief just in case. Odds are you will break the combo just by doing that alone, which means the thief just wasted a kitten ton of initiative going into stealth and missed his steal or wasted it. You know exactly what I meant, you can easily cleave down all of Mesmers illusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > A Blanket nerf by 60% dmg on Defender / Disenchanter / Avenger. I can see the argument for Disenchanter and Defender? But Avenger? It has an extremely predictable 1.5 second cast time and can be dodged. If you're dodging when the shield 4 summons the phantasm you'll completely prevent the phantasm from spawning. If you get the timing down you can shut down avengers no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > I've never had a problem with it on any class. Still don't when I see it occasionally from mesmers or the rare engy. > > > > > > I wouldn’t argue with them. Their so blinded by their hatred for the class even when the majority of the Mesmer players are offering suggestions for nerfs they still come on here on say every Mesmer main thinks the class is fine. The only person that has said it was fine was ilthiwen. Everyone else has suggested nerfs. And then they over exaggerate, when called out they want to argue semantics, start making accusations, etc. > > > > Every time a mesmer thread comes up, here you are. I get that you like the class, cool. But don't be blinded by your love for it. I don't love any of these classes in game. All I want is a balanced competitive game without all the shenanigans: AI clutter for days, Long lasting pulsing aoe that is larger than a point, near endless resetting of fights, evade on skills, chaining skills that allow you to avoid all incoming damage, high up time of boons, rapid -reapplication of boons etc. > > > > > The rangers have more No they don't. Mesmers are objectively the most overpowered class right now. Everyone knows you're just trying to deflect the attention to rangers when really not many people have a problem with them to begin with. Its funny cause when I asked you what your rating was a few weeks ago you ignored it completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeteCommander.4937 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > I've never had a problem with it on any class. Still don't when I see it occasionally from mesmers or the rare engy. > > > > > > > > I wouldn’t argue with them. Their so blinded by their hatred for the class even when the majority of the Mesmer players are offering suggestions for nerfs they still come on here on say every Mesmer main thinks the class is fine. The only person that has said it was fine was ilthiwen. Everyone else has suggested nerfs. And then they over exaggerate, when called out they want to argue semantics, start making accusations, etc. > > > > > > Every time a mesmer thread comes up, here you are. I get that you like the class, cool. But don't be blinded by your love for it. I don't love any of these classes in game. All I want is a balanced competitive game without all the shenanigans: AI clutter for days, Long lasting pulsing aoe that is larger than a point, near endless resetting of fights, evade on skills, chaining skills that allow you to avoid all incoming damage, high up time of boons, rapid -reapplication of boons etc. > > > > > > > > The rangers have more > > No they don't. Mesmers are objectively the most overpowered class right now. Everyone knows you're just trying to deflect the attention to rangers when really not many people have a problem with them to begin with. > > Its funny cause when I asked you what your rating was a few weeks ago you ignored it completely. I didn't want to share my build before that,I just think it's foolish to complain too much on the forum .So I share a truly powerful build stop the ridiculous complaints Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > I've never had a problem with it on any class. Still don't when I see it occasionally from mesmers or the rare engy. > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn’t argue with them. Their so blinded by their hatred for the class even when the majority of the Mesmer players are offering suggestions for nerfs they still come on here on say every Mesmer main thinks the class is fine. The only person that has said it was fine was ilthiwen. Everyone else has suggested nerfs. And then they over exaggerate, when called out they want to argue semantics, start making accusations, etc. > > > > > > > > Every time a mesmer thread comes up, here you are. I get that you like the class, cool. But don't be blinded by your love for it. I don't love any of these classes in game. All I want is a balanced competitive game without all the shenanigans: AI clutter for days, Long lasting pulsing aoe that is larger than a point, near endless resetting of fights, evade on skills, chaining skills that allow you to avoid all incoming damage, high up time of boons, rapid -reapplication of boons etc. > > > > > > > > > > > The rangers have more > > > > No they don't. Mesmers are objectively the most overpowered class right now. Everyone knows you're just trying to deflect the attention to rangers when really not many people have a problem with them to begin with. > > > > Its funny cause when I asked you what your rating was a few weeks ago you ignored it completely. > > I didn't want to share my build before that,I just think it's foolish to complain too much on the forum .So I share a truly powerful build stop the ridiculous complaints So, basically you just admitted that you tried to deflect the attention from mesmer to ranger by sharing a "truly powerful build." lol... The build you made a thread about is actually extremely trash. The complaints about mesmer aren't ridiculous, they're perfectly reasonable and backed up by screenshots, videos, etc. etc. Which is more than you've ever provided. And again, you still haven't given us a screenshot of your rating. This is the 3rd or 4th time you've ignored the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > I've never had a problem with it on any class. Still don't when I see it occasionally from mesmers or the rare engy. > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn’t argue with them. Their so blinded by their hatred for the class even when the majority of the Mesmer players are offering suggestions for nerfs they still come on here on say every Mesmer main thinks the class is fine. The only person that has said it was fine was ilthiwen. Everyone else has suggested nerfs. And then they over exaggerate, when called out they want to argue semantics, start making accusations, etc. > > > > > > > > > > Every time a mesmer thread comes up, here you are. I get that you like the class, cool. But don't be blinded by your love for it. I don't love any of these classes in game. All I want is a balanced competitive game without all the shenanigans: AI clutter for days, Long lasting pulsing aoe that is larger than a point, near endless resetting of fights, evade on skills, chaining skills that allow you to avoid all incoming damage, high up time of boons, rapid -reapplication of boons etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rangers have more > > > > > > No they don't. Mesmers are objectively the most overpowered class right now. Everyone knows you're just trying to deflect the attention to rangers when really not many people have a problem with them to begin with. > > > > > > Its funny cause when I asked you what your rating was a few weeks ago you ignored it completely. > > > > I didn't want to share my build before that,I just think it's foolish to complain too much on the forum .So I share a truly powerful build stop the ridiculous complaints > > So, basically you just admitted that you tried to deflect the attention from mesmer to ranger by sharing a "truly powerful build." lol... The build you made a thread about is actually extremely trash. > > The complaints about mesmer aren't ridiculous, they're perfectly reasonable and backed up by screenshots, videos, etc. etc. Which is more than you've ever provided. > > And again, you still haven't given us a screenshot of your rating. This is the 3rd or 4th time you've ignored the question. Screenshots, videos, etc. that are horsekitten if you look at them closer. And showing off your epeen isn't going to prove how great your reasoning is. It's called argument from authority and it's a fallacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeteCommander.4937 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > I've never had a problem with it on any class. Still don't when I see it occasionally from mesmers or the rare engy. > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn’t argue with them. Their so blinded by their hatred for the class even when the majority of the Mesmer players are offering suggestions for nerfs they still come on here on say every Mesmer main thinks the class is fine. The only person that has said it was fine was ilthiwen. Everyone else has suggested nerfs. And then they over exaggerate, when called out they want to argue semantics, start making accusations, etc. > > > > > > > > > > Every time a mesmer thread comes up, here you are. I get that you like the class, cool. But don't be blinded by your love for it. I don't love any of these classes in game. All I want is a balanced competitive game without all the shenanigans: AI clutter for days, Long lasting pulsing aoe that is larger than a point, near endless resetting of fights, evade on skills, chaining skills that allow you to avoid all incoming damage, high up time of boons, rapid -reapplication of boons etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rangers have more > > > > > > No they don't. Mesmers are objectively the most overpowered class right now. Everyone knows you're just trying to deflect the attention to rangers when really not many people have a problem with them to begin with. > > > > > > Its funny cause when I asked you what your rating was a few weeks ago you ignored it completely. > > > > I didn't want to share my build before that,I just think it's foolish to complain too much on the forum .So I share a truly powerful build stop the ridiculous complaints > > So, basically you just admitted that you tried to deflect the attention from mesmer to ranger by sharing a "truly powerful build." lol... The build you made a thread about is actually extremely trash. > > The complaints about mesmer aren't ridiculous, they're perfectly reasonable and backed up by screenshots, videos, etc. etc. Which is more than you've ever provided. > > And again, you still haven't given us a screenshot of your rating. This is the 3rd or 4th time you've ignored the question. I've been warned about sharing scores. It's not worth persuading you.So I won't argue with you too much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > I've never had a problem with it on any class. Still don't when I see it occasionally from mesmers or the rare engy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn’t argue with them. Their so blinded by their hatred for the class even when the majority of the Mesmer players are offering suggestions for nerfs they still come on here on say every Mesmer main thinks the class is fine. The only person that has said it was fine was ilthiwen. Everyone else has suggested nerfs. And then they over exaggerate, when called out they want to argue semantics, start making accusations, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Every time a mesmer thread comes up, here you are. I get that you like the class, cool. But don't be blinded by your love for it. I don't love any of these classes in game. All I want is a balanced competitive game without all the shenanigans: AI clutter for days, Long lasting pulsing aoe that is larger than a point, near endless resetting of fights, evade on skills, chaining skills that allow you to avoid all incoming damage, high up time of boons, rapid -reapplication of boons etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rangers have more > > > > > > > > No they don't. Mesmers are objectively the most overpowered class right now. Everyone knows you're just trying to deflect the attention to rangers when really not many people have a problem with them to begin with. > > > > > > > > Its funny cause when I asked you what your rating was a few weeks ago you ignored it completely. > > > > > > I didn't want to share my build before that,I just think it's foolish to complain too much on the forum .So I share a truly powerful build stop the ridiculous complaints > > > > So, basically you just admitted that you tried to deflect the attention from mesmer to ranger by sharing a "truly powerful build." lol... The build you made a thread about is actually extremely trash. > > > > The complaints about mesmer aren't ridiculous, they're perfectly reasonable and backed up by screenshots, videos, etc. etc. Which is more than you've ever provided. > > > > And again, you still haven't given us a screenshot of your rating. This is the 3rd or 4th time you've ignored the question. > > Screenshots, videos, etc. that are horsekitten if you look at them closer. And showing off your kitten isn't going to prove how great your reasoning is. It's called argument from authority and it's a fallacy. No, you're wrong. Screenshots and videos are perfect examples of proof. It's laughable that you'd even say otherwise. Argument from authority? I think you mean "Appeal to Authority." Not to mention you seem to have skipped over the lines: 1. "It's important to note that this fallacy should not be used to dismiss the claims of experts, or scientific consensus." 2. "Appeals to authority are not valid arguments, but nor is it reasonable to disregard the claims of experts who have a demonstrated depth of knowledge unless one has a similar level of understanding and/or access to empirical evidence." Zete has obviously demonstrated that he lacks a similar level of understanding and he does not have access to any empirical evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeteCommander.4937 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > I've never had a problem with it on any class. Still don't when I see it occasionally from mesmers or the rare engy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn’t argue with them. Their so blinded by their hatred for the class even when the majority of the Mesmer players are offering suggestions for nerfs they still come on here on say every Mesmer main thinks the class is fine. The only person that has said it was fine was ilthiwen. Everyone else has suggested nerfs. And then they over exaggerate, when called out they want to argue semantics, start making accusations, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every time a mesmer thread comes up, here you are. I get that you like the class, cool. But don't be blinded by your love for it. I don't love any of these classes in game. All I want is a balanced competitive game without all the shenanigans: AI clutter for days, Long lasting pulsing aoe that is larger than a point, near endless resetting of fights, evade on skills, chaining skills that allow you to avoid all incoming damage, high up time of boons, rapid -reapplication of boons etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rangers have more > > > > > > > > > > No they don't. Mesmers are objectively the most overpowered class right now. Everyone knows you're just trying to deflect the attention to rangers when really not many people have a problem with them to begin with. > > > > > > > > > > Its funny cause when I asked you what your rating was a few weeks ago you ignored it completely. > > > > > > > > I didn't want to share my build before that,I just think it's foolish to complain too much on the forum .So I share a truly powerful build stop the ridiculous complaints > > > > > > So, basically you just admitted that you tried to deflect the attention from mesmer to ranger by sharing a "truly powerful build." lol... The build you made a thread about is actually extremely trash. > > > > > > The complaints about mesmer aren't ridiculous, they're perfectly reasonable and backed up by screenshots, videos, etc. etc. Which is more than you've ever provided. > > > > > > And again, you still haven't given us a screenshot of your rating. This is the 3rd or 4th time you've ignored the question. > > > > Screenshots, videos, etc. that are horsekitten if you look at them closer. And showing off your kitten isn't going to prove how great your reasoning is. It's called argument from authority and it's a fallacy. > > No, you're wrong. Screenshots and videos are perfect examples of proof. It's laughable that you'd even say otherwise. > > Argument from authority? I think you mean "Appeal to Authority." Not to mention you seem to have skipped over the lines: > > 1. "It's important to note that this fallacy should not be used to dismiss the claims of experts, or scientific consensus." > 2. "Appeals to authority are not valid arguments, but nor is it reasonable to disregard the claims of experts who have a demonstrated depth of knowledge unless one has a similar level of understanding and/or access to empirical evidence." > > Zete has obviously demonstrated that he lacks a similar level of understanding and he does not have access to any empirical evidence. You're all right. Can you stop pestering me？ i am sure not everyone will accept so I dare to share this build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > I've never had a problem with it on any class. Still don't when I see it occasionally from mesmers or the rare engy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn’t argue with them. Their so blinded by their hatred for the class even when the majority of the Mesmer players are offering suggestions for nerfs they still come on here on say every Mesmer main thinks the class is fine. The only person that has said it was fine was ilthiwen. Everyone else has suggested nerfs. And then they over exaggerate, when called out they want to argue semantics, start making accusations, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Every time a mesmer thread comes up, here you are. I get that you like the class, cool. But don't be blinded by your love for it. I don't love any of these classes in game. All I want is a balanced competitive game without all the shenanigans: AI clutter for days, Long lasting pulsing aoe that is larger than a point, near endless resetting of fights, evade on skills, chaining skills that allow you to avoid all incoming damage, high up time of boons, rapid -reapplication of boons etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rangers have more > > > > > > > > No they don't. Mesmers are objectively the most overpowered class right now. Everyone knows you're just trying to deflect the attention to rangers when really not many people have a problem with them to begin with. > > > > > > > > Its funny cause when I asked you what your rating was a few weeks ago you ignored it completely. > > > > > > I didn't want to share my build before that,I just think it's foolish to complain too much on the forum .So I share a truly powerful build stop the ridiculous complaints > > > > So, basically you just admitted that you tried to deflect the attention from mesmer to ranger by sharing a "truly powerful build." lol... The build you made a thread about is actually extremely trash. > > > > The complaints about mesmer aren't ridiculous, they're perfectly reasonable and backed up by screenshots, videos, etc. etc. Which is more than you've ever provided. > > > > And again, you still haven't given us a screenshot of your rating. This is the 3rd or 4th time you've ignored the question. > > I've been warned about sharing scores. It's not worth persuading you.So I won't argue with you too much They don't care about sharing scores lol. You literally asked me to share my rating and I linked a screenshot of it. I didn't get any warnings. > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > How many points do you have in rank？ Like I said, you refuse to give us a screenshot of your rating. Just to put it out there, you're the same person who said these things: 1. "Thief meta is s/d daredevil." 2. "A.E.D. Holosmith is meta." 3. "SB/S-D Soulbeast is meta." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > > > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > > I've never had a problem with it on any class. Still don't when I see it occasionally from mesmers or the rare engy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn’t argue with them. Their so blinded by their hatred for the class even when the majority of the Mesmer players are offering suggestions for nerfs they still come on here on say every Mesmer main thinks the class is fine. The only person that has said it was fine was ilthiwen. Everyone else has suggested nerfs. And then they over exaggerate, when called out they want to argue semantics, start making accusations, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every time a mesmer thread comes up, here you are. I get that you like the class, cool. But don't be blinded by your love for it. I don't love any of these classes in game. All I want is a balanced competitive game without all the shenanigans: AI clutter for days, Long lasting pulsing aoe that is larger than a point, near endless resetting of fights, evade on skills, chaining skills that allow you to avoid all incoming damage, high up time of boons, rapid -reapplication of boons etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rangers have more > > > > > > > > > > > > No they don't. Mesmers are objectively the most overpowered class right now. Everyone knows you're just trying to deflect the attention to rangers when really not many people have a problem with them to begin with. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its funny cause when I asked you what your rating was a few weeks ago you ignored it completely. > > > > > > > > > > I didn't want to share my build before that,I just think it's foolish to complain too much on the forum .So I share a truly powerful build stop the ridiculous complaints > > > > > > > > So, basically you just admitted that you tried to deflect the attention from mesmer to ranger by sharing a "truly powerful build." lol... The build you made a thread about is actually extremely trash. > > > > > > > > The complaints about mesmer aren't ridiculous, they're perfectly reasonable and backed up by screenshots, videos, etc. etc. Which is more than you've ever provided. > > > > > > > > And again, you still haven't given us a screenshot of your rating. This is the 3rd or 4th time you've ignored the question. > > > > > > Screenshots, videos, etc. that are horsekitten if you look at them closer. And showing off your kitten isn't going to prove how great your reasoning is. It's called argument from authority and it's a fallacy. > > > > No, you're wrong. Screenshots and videos are perfect examples of proof. It's laughable that you'd even say otherwise. > > > > Argument from authority? I think you mean "Appeal to Authority." Not to mention you seem to have skipped over the lines: > > > > 1. "It's important to note that this fallacy should not be used to dismiss the claims of experts, or scientific consensus." > > 2. "Appeals to authority are not valid arguments, but nor is it reasonable to disregard the claims of experts who have a demonstrated depth of knowledge unless one has a similar level of understanding and/or access to empirical evidence." > > > > Zete has obviously demonstrated that he lacks a similar level of understanding and he does not have access to any empirical evidence. > You're all right. Can you stop pestering me？ i am sure not everyone will accept so I dare to share this build > [This](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQRBMRdG2JBvQLLYDvgHvAXLYBAAyRDeQJSvA) is the Soulbeast build you shared. You said it is a "truly powerful build" and that it has "more" than mesmer. You're wrong and this build is actually some hot garbage lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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