Feedback on the State of the Mesmer [merged]

[Inoki.6048]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> Lest this merging confuse you: There were about 8 threads about the state of the mesmer. We're merged those threads (and may add a few more) because the Devs **want** to read your feedback, but have asked to get it in one place to let them do that efficiently.

 

the one thing I find disappointing is that we have to point out the obvious. Mesmer's state isn't blatantly screaming for balance?

[Toron.4856]

> @"Inoki.6048" said:

> > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > Lest this merging confuse you: There were about 8 threads about the state of the mesmer. We're merged those threads (and may add a few more) because the Devs **want** to read your feedback, but have asked to get it in one place to let them do that efficiently.

>

> the one thing I find disappointing is that we have to point out the obvious. Mesmer's state isn't blatantly screaming for balance?

 

1.2k comments and you expect a serious statement from Anet or even a balance patch to take care of mesmer/the pvp community?

 

Pls this is Anet not Blizzard we are talking about

 

Pvp is irrelevant to Anet. There's one balance patch every 3 or 6 months and if they fail to balance like they did for mesmer we gonna have to deal with it till the next patch or the one after if they fail the balance again

 

Don't get up ur hopes

 

I hope you prove me wrong Anet but let's be real... U won't lol

[Kiritodatrth.1548]

Talking as a company director...

 

Hot fix is not existing in Anet vocabulary... I just wish for more frequent patches and smaller changes... They asked for feedback we gave them... Changed nothing, they did what they wanted and we end up with the problems we anticipated... GJ Anet.

This in any serious company asks for a letter of resignation Xp...

[bravan.3876]

> @"Kiritodatrth.1548" said:

> Talking as a company director...

>

> Hot fix is not existing in Anet vocabulary... I just wish for more frequent patches and smaller changes... They asked for feedback we gave them... Changed nothing, they did what they wanted and we end up with the problems we anticipated... GJ Anet.

> This in any serious company asks for a letter of resignation Xp...

 

95% of the threads are mesmer mains trying to prevent more nerfs than they would like to see or mesmer hater crying even about not viable builds with high skill need. If i were Anet i would not spend a single minute in this forum. Balanceing wrong they also can do by their own pretty well.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > @"Hylo.1968" said:

> > > > what do you think?

> > > > Sword ambush now have a **chance** to daze the enemy (30-40%)

> > > > Cronophantasma now leave your resummoned clones with lower hps and thus have a 50% dmg reduction

> > > > GS ambush might stack reduced from 2 per hit to 1, as well as vulnerability.

> > > > Mirage cloak duration now have a 15% reduced duration (3/4 sec instead of 1whole second)

> > > >

> > > Introducing more rng is bad, the player need fixed cds and sure procs to work with, x% chance to daze is just a bad solution. Better give it a cooldown, but i don't think that is needed. I don't see any problem with sword ambush on a not anyway lame build (means phantasmspam build). They could remove the clone it generates is the only change i would agree to.

> > > Mirage cloak was increased from beta because 3/4 was too bad.

> > > Don't nerf traits/skills which don't cause the problems. The new phantasm mechanic is the problem not chronophantasma trait. Nerfing the trait makes it useless for every build not based on phantasmspam. Chronophantasma was totally fine before this stupid new phantasm rules.

> > >

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > @"Jojo.6590" said:

> > > >

> > >

> > > > Mesmer can initiate burst from stealth.

> > > When not played with Mass Invis the mesmer has 3 seconds stealth, every semi decent player knows when to dodge when a mesmer goes into stealth. This is a very not so good player problem in PvP. Stop complaining about something only very not so good player cry about and that since gamerelease 2012... Pure glass power shatter is still a not viable build, very hard to play vs not very not so good player. It is only a good newbie and baddies-killer. Its ridiculous to cry about such a build.

> >

> > I guarantee you more Mesmers would rather keep the new phantasm mechanics rather than reverting them for the sake of a single trait.

>

> That is why Anet should not ask them, seriously. It is not about revert the new rule for the sake of a trait, it is about revert the phantasm rule because it is broken itself. And trying to make it balanced by nerf traits that don't cause the problem in the first place is just the same bad balance anet is doing so often. Mesmers class mechanic is about shattering, so there is no reason a phantasm spam build should even exist, not by having perma living phantams in the old rule but also not by having 2000 million high dmg phantams with the new rule. The only change was needed to kill the pve build that has 3 phantasms permanently up and only autoattacked to the content was making phantams turn into clones after one attack. Problem solved. If mesmer need to get compentsated in pve for the dmg lose than compensate them in pve only. In PvP the change is a buff to shattermesmer already and don't need more dmg on phantams or more skills/ traits with 2 instead of 1 phantasm spammable.

>

> A phantasm spam mirage is also broken and can't use chronophantasma. Chronophantasma just increase an existing problem not cause it.

> So balance the problem and not traits which not cause the problem and which you make useless for every other build not based on phantasm spam. It's like nerfing core traitlines to balance op elite specs. It is just balance changes at the wrong plances anet is known for and now ppl in forums even ask for bad balance desicions... it is just not logic to not balance the problem itself. cut some leaves instead the roots.

 

Phantasm spam Mirage actually took a really solid hit in the skillsplit now that they can't effortlessly get 25 might. You've seen a huge migration from the Mirage build towards the Chronomancer duelist build as a result.

 

The reworked definitely over tuned a number of phantasms. But any phantasm is going to be overpowered when one trait and one heal skill literally quadruple their damage. Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether can't be allowed to exist in a post phantasm rework work. Anything like Imagined Burden and the Phantasmal Warlocks should be condensed into one phantasm. I think this change alone should do wonders for the game.

[bravan.3876]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > @"Hylo.1968" said:

> > > > > what do you think?

> > > > > Sword ambush now have a **chance** to daze the enemy (30-40%)

> > > > > Cronophantasma now leave your resummoned clones with lower hps and thus have a 50% dmg reduction

> > > > > GS ambush might stack reduced from 2 per hit to 1, as well as vulnerability.

> > > > > Mirage cloak duration now have a 15% reduced duration (3/4 sec instead of 1whole second)

> > > > >

> > > > Introducing more rng is bad, the player need fixed cds and sure procs to work with, x% chance to daze is just a bad solution. Better give it a cooldown, but i don't think that is needed. I don't see any problem with sword ambush on a not anyway lame build (means phantasmspam build). They could remove the clone it generates is the only change i would agree to.

> > > > Mirage cloak was increased from beta because 3/4 was too bad.

> > > > Don't nerf traits/skills which don't cause the problems. The new phantasm mechanic is the problem not chronophantasma trait. Nerfing the trait makes it useless for every build not based on phantasmspam. Chronophantasma was totally fine before this stupid new phantasm rules.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > > @"Jojo.6590" said:

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Mesmer can initiate burst from stealth.

> > > > When not played with Mass Invis the mesmer has 3 seconds stealth, every semi decent player knows when to dodge when a mesmer goes into stealth. This is a very not so good player problem in PvP. Stop complaining about something only very not so good player cry about and that since gamerelease 2012... Pure glass power shatter is still a not viable build, very hard to play vs not very not so good player. It is only a good newbie and baddies-killer. Its ridiculous to cry about such a build.

> > >

> > > I guarantee you more Mesmers would rather keep the new phantasm mechanics rather than reverting them for the sake of a single trait.

> >

> > That is why Anet should not ask them, seriously. It is not about revert the new rule for the sake of a trait, it is about revert the phantasm rule because it is broken itself. And trying to make it balanced by nerf traits that don't cause the problem in the first place is just the same bad balance anet is doing so often. Mesmers class mechanic is about shattering, so there is no reason a phantasm spam build should even exist, not by having perma living phantams in the old rule but also not by having 2000 million high dmg phantams with the new rule. The only change was needed to kill the pve build that has 3 phantasms permanently up and only autoattacked to the content was making phantams turn into clones after one attack. Problem solved. If mesmer need to get compentsated in pve for the dmg lose than compensate them in pve only. In PvP the change is a buff to shattermesmer already and don't need more dmg on phantams or more skills/ traits with 2 instead of 1 phantasm spammable.

> >

> > A phantasm spam mirage is also broken and can't use chronophantasma. Chronophantasma just increase an existing problem not cause it.

> > So balance the problem and not traits which not cause the problem and which you make useless for every other build not based on phantasm spam. It's like nerfing core traitlines to balance op elite specs. It is just balance changes at the wrong plances anet is known for and now ppl in forums even ask for bad balance desicions... it is just not logic to not balance the problem itself. cut some leaves instead the roots.

>

> Phantasm spam Mirage actually took a really solid hit in the skillsplit now that they can't effortlessly get 25 might. You've seen a huge migration from the Mirage build towards the Chronomancer duelist build as a result.

>

> The reworked definitely over tuned a number of phantasms. But any phantasm is going to be overpowered when one trait and one heal skill literally quadruple their damage. Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether can't be allowed to exist in a post phantasm rework work. Anything like Imagined Burden and the Phantasmal Warlocks should be condensed into one phantasm. I think this change alone should do wonders for the game.

 

Neither the trait nor the heal will be a problem when phantasm turn into clones after one attack but every other change of the mechnic get just reverted. Kill the problem itself. The heal and chronophantasm are not broken in any build not based on phantasm spam (the heal will be back into his "never-used"-state then anyway). When phantasm count into the max of 3 illusions again mesmer has to think about when to cast his phantasms, to not have more than 3 up at a time with chronophantasm. Skill balanced again.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > @"Hylo.1968" said:

> > > > > > what do you think?

> > > > > > Sword ambush now have a **chance** to daze the enemy (30-40%)

> > > > > > Cronophantasma now leave your resummoned clones with lower hps and thus have a 50% dmg reduction

> > > > > > GS ambush might stack reduced from 2 per hit to 1, as well as vulnerability.

> > > > > > Mirage cloak duration now have a 15% reduced duration (3/4 sec instead of 1whole second)

> > > > > >

> > > > > Introducing more rng is bad, the player need fixed cds and sure procs to work with, x% chance to daze is just a bad solution. Better give it a cooldown, but i don't think that is needed. I don't see any problem with sword ambush on a not anyway lame build (means phantasmspam build). They could remove the clone it generates is the only change i would agree to.

> > > > > Mirage cloak was increased from beta because 3/4 was too bad.

> > > > > Don't nerf traits/skills which don't cause the problems. The new phantasm mechanic is the problem not chronophantasma trait. Nerfing the trait makes it useless for every build not based on phantasmspam. Chronophantasma was totally fine before this stupid new phantasm rules.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > > > @"Jojo.6590" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > Mesmer can initiate burst from stealth.

> > > > > When not played with Mass Invis the mesmer has 3 seconds stealth, every semi decent player knows when to dodge when a mesmer goes into stealth. This is a very not so good player problem in PvP. Stop complaining about something only very not so good player cry about and that since gamerelease 2012... Pure glass power shatter is still a not viable build, very hard to play vs not very not so good player. It is only a good newbie and baddies-killer. Its ridiculous to cry about such a build.

> > > >

> > > > I guarantee you more Mesmers would rather keep the new phantasm mechanics rather than reverting them for the sake of a single trait.

> > >

> > > That is why Anet should not ask them, seriously. It is not about revert the new rule for the sake of a trait, it is about revert the phantasm rule because it is broken itself. And trying to make it balanced by nerf traits that don't cause the problem in the first place is just the same bad balance anet is doing so often. Mesmers class mechanic is about shattering, so there is no reason a phantasm spam build should even exist, not by having perma living phantams in the old rule but also not by having 2000 million high dmg phantams with the new rule. The only change was needed to kill the pve build that has 3 phantasms permanently up and only autoattacked to the content was making phantams turn into clones after one attack. Problem solved. If mesmer need to get compentsated in pve for the dmg lose than compensate them in pve only. In PvP the change is a buff to shattermesmer already and don't need more dmg on phantams or more skills/ traits with 2 instead of 1 phantasm spammable.

> > >

> > > A phantasm spam mirage is also broken and can't use chronophantasma. Chronophantasma just increase an existing problem not cause it.

> > > So balance the problem and not traits which not cause the problem and which you make useless for every other build not based on phantasm spam. It's like nerfing core traitlines to balance op elite specs. It is just balance changes at the wrong plances anet is known for and now ppl in forums even ask for bad balance desicions... it is just not logic to not balance the problem itself. cut some leaves instead the roots.

> >

> > Phantasm spam Mirage actually took a really solid hit in the skillsplit now that they can't effortlessly get 25 might. You've seen a huge migration from the Mirage build towards the Chronomancer duelist build as a result.

> >

> > The reworked definitely over tuned a number of phantasms. But any phantasm is going to be overpowered when one trait and one heal skill literally quadruple their damage. Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether can't be allowed to exist in a post phantasm rework work. Anything like Imagined Burden and the Phantasmal Warlocks should be condensed into one phantasm. I think this change alone should do wonders for the game.

>

> Neither the trait nor the heal will be a problem when phantasm turn into clones after one attack but every other change of the mechnic get just reverted. Kill the problem itself. The heal and chronophantasm are not broken in any build not based on phantasm spam (the heal will be back into his "never-used"-state then anyway). When phantasm count into the max of 3 illusions again mesmer has to think about when to cast his phantasms, to not have more than 3 up at a time with chronophantasm. Skill balanced again.

 

You're really incoherent sounding and it's hard to parse what you're actually suggesting. Are you arguing for the mesmer rework to be completely reverted except for phantasms turning into clones after a single attack?

 

Also the heal and the trait are literally the source of the phantasm spam. If you eliminated those and removed Imagined Burden and condensed Phantasmal Warlock, you couldn't really spam phantasms because the cooldowns would actually be cooldowns and hard limits on how many phantasms they could summon. Chronomancers being able to potentially summon 8 Avengers, 6 Defenders, and 4 Disenchanters is out of this world.

[bravan.3876]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > > @"Hylo.1968" said:

> > > > > > > what do you think?

> > > > > > > Sword ambush now have a **chance** to daze the enemy (30-40%)

> > > > > > > Cronophantasma now leave your resummoned clones with lower hps and thus have a 50% dmg reduction

> > > > > > > GS ambush might stack reduced from 2 per hit to 1, as well as vulnerability.

> > > > > > > Mirage cloak duration now have a 15% reduced duration (3/4 sec instead of 1whole second)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > Introducing more rng is bad, the player need fixed cds and sure procs to work with, x% chance to daze is just a bad solution. Better give it a cooldown, but i don't think that is needed. I don't see any problem with sword ambush on a not anyway lame build (means phantasmspam build). They could remove the clone it generates is the only change i would agree to.

> > > > > > Mirage cloak was increased from beta because 3/4 was too bad.

> > > > > > Don't nerf traits/skills which don't cause the problems. The new phantasm mechanic is the problem not chronophantasma trait. Nerfing the trait makes it useless for every build not based on phantasmspam. Chronophantasma was totally fine before this stupid new phantasm rules.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Jojo.6590" said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Mesmer can initiate burst from stealth.

> > > > > > When not played with Mass Invis the mesmer has 3 seconds stealth, every semi decent player knows when to dodge when a mesmer goes into stealth. This is a very not so good player problem in PvP. Stop complaining about something only very not so good player cry about and that since gamerelease 2012... Pure glass power shatter is still a not viable build, very hard to play vs not very not so good player. It is only a good newbie and baddies-killer. Its ridiculous to cry about such a build.

> > > > >

> > > > > I guarantee you more Mesmers would rather keep the new phantasm mechanics rather than reverting them for the sake of a single trait.

> > > >

> > > > That is why Anet should not ask them, seriously. It is not about revert the new rule for the sake of a trait, it is about revert the phantasm rule because it is broken itself. And trying to make it balanced by nerf traits that don't cause the problem in the first place is just the same bad balance anet is doing so often. Mesmers class mechanic is about shattering, so there is no reason a phantasm spam build should even exist, not by having perma living phantams in the old rule but also not by having 2000 million high dmg phantams with the new rule. The only change was needed to kill the pve build that has 3 phantasms permanently up and only autoattacked to the content was making phantams turn into clones after one attack. Problem solved. If mesmer need to get compentsated in pve for the dmg lose than compensate them in pve only. In PvP the change is a buff to shattermesmer already and don't need more dmg on phantams or more skills/ traits with 2 instead of 1 phantasm spammable.

> > > >

> > > > A phantasm spam mirage is also broken and can't use chronophantasma. Chronophantasma just increase an existing problem not cause it.

> > > > So balance the problem and not traits which not cause the problem and which you make useless for every other build not based on phantasm spam. It's like nerfing core traitlines to balance op elite specs. It is just balance changes at the wrong plances anet is known for and now ppl in forums even ask for bad balance desicions... it is just not logic to not balance the problem itself. cut some leaves instead the roots.

> > >

> > > Phantasm spam Mirage actually took a really solid hit in the skillsplit now that they can't effortlessly get 25 might. You've seen a huge migration from the Mirage build towards the Chronomancer duelist build as a result.

> > >

> > > The reworked definitely over tuned a number of phantasms. But any phantasm is going to be overpowered when one trait and one heal skill literally quadruple their damage. Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether can't be allowed to exist in a post phantasm rework work. Anything like Imagined Burden and the Phantasmal Warlocks should be condensed into one phantasm. I think this change alone should do wonders for the game.

> >

> > Neither the trait nor the heal will be a problem when phantasm turn into clones after one attack but every other change of the mechnic get just reverted. Kill the problem itself. The heal and chronophantasm are not broken in any build not based on phantasm spam (the heal will be back into his "never-used"-state then anyway). When phantasm count into the max of 3 illusions again mesmer has to think about when to cast his phantasms, to not have more than 3 up at a time with chronophantasm. Skill balanced again.

>

> You're really incoherent sounding and it's hard to parse what you're actually suggesting. Are you arguing for the mesmer rework to be completely reverted except for phantasms turning into clones after a single attack?

>

> Also the heal and the trait are literally the source of the phantasm spam. If you eliminated those and removed Imagined Burden and condensed Phantasmal Warlock, you couldn't really spam phantasms because the cooldowns would actually be cooldowns and hard limits on how many phantasms they could summon. Chronomancers being able to potentially summon 8 Avengers, 6 Defenders, and 4 Disenchanters is out of this world.

 

Yes i ask for revert all the phantasm changes except the one that make phantams turn into clones after one attack. Rework the utility phantasms wich only make sense when permanently up in a way that don't give them 10k hits and then its done. All skills/traits now give 2 phantasms instead one get revert/reworked to only give one phantasm. Phantasms count into the max limit of 3 illusions up (that is rly enough in terms of visual clutter) and make them able to get shattered as phantams if the player want to shatter them before they turn into clones.

 

But ofc you can try it like you say and make these skills useless for every other build not based on phantasm spam. If you think that is the correct way. I just don't see any reason for the new phantasm mechanic to exist in the first place. It was mostly made to prevent player in pve to summon 3 permanent phantasms and go afk until the npc boss is dead. For that it is enough that phantasms turn into clones after one attack. If you just nerf every trait and skill that never was an issue before that rework, so mesmer is limited to only 3 illusions up in this way then ok. The result will be the same, except that you just don't make traits useless for other builds than phantasmbuilds when you just revert the real problem and not traits wich never were an issue before the rework. I rly get tired of arguing, anet will find the worst way of balancing this broken mechanic anyway, so why i even waste my time...

[Kiritodatrth.1548]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Kiritodatrth.1548" said:

> > Talking as a company director...

> >

> > Hot fix is not existing in Anet vocabulary... I just wish for more frequent patches and smaller changes... They asked for feedback we gave them... Changed nothing, they did what they wanted and we end up with the problems we anticipated... GJ Anet.

> > This in any serious company asks for a letter of resignation Xp...

>

> 95% of the threads are mesmer mains trying to prevent more nerfs than they would like to see or mesmer hater crying even about not viable builds with high skill need. If i were Anet i would not spend a single minute in this forum. Balanceing wrong they also can do by their own pretty well.

 

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Kiritodatrth.1548" said:

> > Talking as a company director...

> >

> > Hot fix is not existing in Anet vocabulary... I just wish for more frequent patches and smaller changes... They asked for feedback we gave them... Changed nothing, they did what they wanted and we end up with the problems we anticipated... GJ Anet.

> > This in any serious company asks for a letter of resignation Xp...

>

> 95% of the threads are mesmer mains trying to prevent more nerfs than they would like to see or mesmer hater crying even about not viable builds with high skill need. If i were Anet i would not spend a single minute in this forum. Balanceing wrong they also can do by their own pretty well.

 

Well I agree in parts, Anet has this tendency to overreact... Due to the time between patches, I think...

I agree with mesmer main protecting this from happening with their main (same as Anet did with war last patch)... I will not cry about anything, my point is more in the direction that they don't do it and they don't listen... So prolly doesn't matter how much ppl are saying here they will do as they will and that is sad... Anet needs to select some GMs that keep track of the game as players AND listen to them, not try to please a low skill low rate L2P... Also GMs could be voted by the community representing classes... Keeps the change small an in a pace... But well... Who cares...

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Hylo.1968" said:

> > > > > > > > what do you think?

> > > > > > > > Sword ambush now have a **chance** to daze the enemy (30-40%)

> > > > > > > > Cronophantasma now leave your resummoned clones with lower hps and thus have a 50% dmg reduction

> > > > > > > > GS ambush might stack reduced from 2 per hit to 1, as well as vulnerability.

> > > > > > > > Mirage cloak duration now have a 15% reduced duration (3/4 sec instead of 1whole second)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Introducing more rng is bad, the player need fixed cds and sure procs to work with, x% chance to daze is just a bad solution. Better give it a cooldown, but i don't think that is needed. I don't see any problem with sword ambush on a not anyway lame build (means phantasmspam build). They could remove the clone it generates is the only change i would agree to.

> > > > > > > Mirage cloak was increased from beta because 3/4 was too bad.

> > > > > > > Don't nerf traits/skills which don't cause the problems. The new phantasm mechanic is the problem not chronophantasma trait. Nerfing the trait makes it useless for every build not based on phantasmspam. Chronophantasma was totally fine before this stupid new phantasm rules.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Jojo.6590" said:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Mesmer can initiate burst from stealth.

> > > > > > > When not played with Mass Invis the mesmer has 3 seconds stealth, every semi decent player knows when to dodge when a mesmer goes into stealth. This is a very not so good player problem in PvP. Stop complaining about something only very not so good player cry about and that since gamerelease 2012... Pure glass power shatter is still a not viable build, very hard to play vs not very not so good player. It is only a good newbie and baddies-killer. Its ridiculous to cry about such a build.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I guarantee you more Mesmers would rather keep the new phantasm mechanics rather than reverting them for the sake of a single trait.

> > > > >

> > > > > That is why Anet should not ask them, seriously. It is not about revert the new rule for the sake of a trait, it is about revert the phantasm rule because it is broken itself. And trying to make it balanced by nerf traits that don't cause the problem in the first place is just the same bad balance anet is doing so often. Mesmers class mechanic is about shattering, so there is no reason a phantasm spam build should even exist, not by having perma living phantams in the old rule but also not by having 2000 million high dmg phantams with the new rule. The only change was needed to kill the pve build that has 3 phantasms permanently up and only autoattacked to the content was making phantams turn into clones after one attack. Problem solved. If mesmer need to get compentsated in pve for the dmg lose than compensate them in pve only. In PvP the change is a buff to shattermesmer already and don't need more dmg on phantams or more skills/ traits with 2 instead of 1 phantasm spammable.

> > > > >

> > > > > A phantasm spam mirage is also broken and can't use chronophantasma. Chronophantasma just increase an existing problem not cause it.

> > > > > So balance the problem and not traits which not cause the problem and which you make useless for every other build not based on phantasm spam. It's like nerfing core traitlines to balance op elite specs. It is just balance changes at the wrong plances anet is known for and now ppl in forums even ask for bad balance desicions... it is just not logic to not balance the problem itself. cut some leaves instead the roots.

> > > >

> > > > Phantasm spam Mirage actually took a really solid hit in the skillsplit now that they can't effortlessly get 25 might. You've seen a huge migration from the Mirage build towards the Chronomancer duelist build as a result.

> > > >

> > > > The reworked definitely over tuned a number of phantasms. But any phantasm is going to be overpowered when one trait and one heal skill literally quadruple their damage. Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether can't be allowed to exist in a post phantasm rework work. Anything like Imagined Burden and the Phantasmal Warlocks should be condensed into one phantasm. I think this change alone should do wonders for the game.

> > >

> > > Neither the trait nor the heal will be a problem when phantasm turn into clones after one attack but every other change of the mechnic get just reverted. Kill the problem itself. The heal and chronophantasm are not broken in any build not based on phantasm spam (the heal will be back into his "never-used"-state then anyway). When phantasm count into the max of 3 illusions again mesmer has to think about when to cast his phantasms, to not have more than 3 up at a time with chronophantasm. Skill balanced again.

> >

> > You're really incoherent sounding and it's hard to parse what you're actually suggesting. Are you arguing for the mesmer rework to be completely reverted except for phantasms turning into clones after a single attack?

> >

> > Also the heal and the trait are literally the source of the phantasm spam. If you eliminated those and removed Imagined Burden and condensed Phantasmal Warlock, you couldn't really spam phantasms because the cooldowns would actually be cooldowns and hard limits on how many phantasms they could summon. Chronomancers being able to potentially summon 8 Avengers, 6 Defenders, and 4 Disenchanters is out of this world.

>

> Yes i ask for revert all the phantasm changes except the one that make phantams turn into clones after one attack. Rework the utility phantasms wich only make sense when permanently up in a way that don't give them 10k hits and then its done. All skills/traits now give 2 phantasms instead one get revert/reworked to only give one phantasm. Phantasms count into the max limit of 3 illusions up (that is rly enough in terms of visual clutter) and make them able to get shattered as phantams if the player want to shatter them before they turn into clones.

>

> But ofc you can try it like you say and make these skills useless for every other build not based on phantasm spam. If you think that is the correct way. I just don't see any reason for the new phantasm mechanic to exist in the first place. It was mostly made to prevent player in pve to summon 3 permanent phantasms and go afk until the npc boss is dead. For that it is enough that phantasms turn into clones after one attack. If you just nerf every trait and skill that never was an issue before that rework, so mesmer is limited to only 3 illusions up in this way then ok. The result will be the same, except that you just don't make traits useless for other builds than phantasmbuilds when you just revert the real problem and not traits wich never were an issue before the rework. I rly get tired of arguing, anet will find the worst way of balancing this broken mechanic anyway, so why i even waste my time...

 

Before the rework phantasms were all completely useless in PvP but as shatter fodder except the Greatsword Phantasm. Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether weren't a problem in PvP because Phantasms basically didn't do anything. It didn't actually increase Phantasm damage, in increased your ability to shatter. We'd actually reached a point in PvE where phantasms weren't worth using, period with the exception of Boonshare Chronomancer. The rework wasn't just about making shatters useful in long PvE encounters but also making Phantasms more impactful in general and I agree with both general impulses. Back before Path of Fire Arenanet gave all the Mesmer phantasms a unique spell the mesmer themselves would cast for this effect. The problem is that not only are a majority of phantasms extremely overtuned but a single trait and a single heal quadruples their damage. Once we fix Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether we can treat Phantasms like they really are; mesmer skills with unique delivery systems that add ammo for our class mechanic, and balance them accordingly.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Kiritodatrth.1548" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"Kiritodatrth.1548" said:

> > > Talking as a company director...

> > >

> > > Hot fix is not existing in Anet vocabulary... I just wish for more frequent patches and smaller changes... They asked for feedback we gave them... Changed nothing, they did what they wanted and we end up with the problems we anticipated... GJ Anet.

> > > This in any serious company asks for a letter of resignation Xp...

> >

> > 95% of the threads are mesmer mains trying to prevent more nerfs than they would like to see or mesmer hater crying even about not viable builds with high skill need. If i were Anet i would not spend a single minute in this forum. Balanceing wrong they also can do by their own pretty well.

>

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"Kiritodatrth.1548" said:

> > > Talking as a company director...

> > >

> > > Hot fix is not existing in Anet vocabulary... I just wish for more frequent patches and smaller changes... They asked for feedback we gave them... Changed nothing, they did what they wanted and we end up with the problems we anticipated... GJ Anet.

> > > This in any serious company asks for a letter of resignation Xp...

> >

> > 95% of the threads are mesmer mains trying to prevent more nerfs than they would like to see or mesmer hater crying even about not viable builds with high skill need. If i were Anet i would not spend a single minute in this forum. Balanceing wrong they also can do by their own pretty well.

>

> Well I agree in parts, Anet has this tendency to overreact... Due to the time between patches, I think...

> I agree with mesmer main protecting this from happening with their main (same as Anet did with war last patch)... I will not cry about anything, my point is more in the direction that they don't do it and they don't listen... So prolly doesn't matter how much ppl are saying here they will do as they will and that is sad... Anet needs to select some GMs that keep track of the game as players AND listen to them, not try to please a low skill low rate L2P... Also GMs could be voted by the community representing classes... Keeps the change small an in a pace... But well... Who cares...

 

To be honest I’d rather they had at least 1 staff member who literally just works on pushing out a balance patch every month. The 2 most important things for a game is that it be fun and that you have something to do. They fixed the latter by creating quarterly updates with a good zone to run a round in, explore and do metas, they added seasons for PvP to keep people interested or at least going back for rewards.

 

Having said that between Jan 2013 and Dec 2013 there were 9 balance patches, Jan 2014 and Dec 2014 there were only 6 balance patches but a ton of skill fact changes and bug fixes. The same period in 2015 had 7 patches but also included HoT and specialisation updates which are considerably more work. I feel that having 8 or 9 balance changes even if they were just a few skills per class was a good state, it kept the game interesting and while nerfs suck in the long run I’m ok with them even if in the short term I’m dissatisfied, what makes me dissatisfied long term is power creep.

[bravan.3876]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Hylo.1968" said:

> > > > > > > > > what do you think?

> > > > > > > > > Sword ambush now have a **chance** to daze the enemy (30-40%)

> > > > > > > > > Cronophantasma now leave your resummoned clones with lower hps and thus have a 50% dmg reduction

> > > > > > > > > GS ambush might stack reduced from 2 per hit to 1, as well as vulnerability.

> > > > > > > > > Mirage cloak duration now have a 15% reduced duration (3/4 sec instead of 1whole second)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Introducing more rng is bad, the player need fixed cds and sure procs to work with, x% chance to daze is just a bad solution. Better give it a cooldown, but i don't think that is needed. I don't see any problem with sword ambush on a not anyway lame build (means phantasmspam build). They could remove the clone it generates is the only change i would agree to.

> > > > > > > > Mirage cloak was increased from beta because 3/4 was too bad.

> > > > > > > > Don't nerf traits/skills which don't cause the problems. The new phantasm mechanic is the problem not chronophantasma trait. Nerfing the trait makes it useless for every build not based on phantasmspam. Chronophantasma was totally fine before this stupid new phantasm rules.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Jojo.6590" said:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Mesmer can initiate burst from stealth.

> > > > > > > > When not played with Mass Invis the mesmer has 3 seconds stealth, every semi decent player knows when to dodge when a mesmer goes into stealth. This is a very not so good player problem in PvP. Stop complaining about something only very not so good player cry about and that since gamerelease 2012... Pure glass power shatter is still a not viable build, very hard to play vs not very not so good player. It is only a good newbie and baddies-killer. Its ridiculous to cry about such a build.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I guarantee you more Mesmers would rather keep the new phantasm mechanics rather than reverting them for the sake of a single trait.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That is why Anet should not ask them, seriously. It is not about revert the new rule for the sake of a trait, it is about revert the phantasm rule because it is broken itself. And trying to make it balanced by nerf traits that don't cause the problem in the first place is just the same bad balance anet is doing so often. Mesmers class mechanic is about shattering, so there is no reason a phantasm spam build should even exist, not by having perma living phantams in the old rule but also not by having 2000 million high dmg phantams with the new rule. The only change was needed to kill the pve build that has 3 phantasms permanently up and only autoattacked to the content was making phantams turn into clones after one attack. Problem solved. If mesmer need to get compentsated in pve for the dmg lose than compensate them in pve only. In PvP the change is a buff to shattermesmer already and don't need more dmg on phantams or more skills/ traits with 2 instead of 1 phantasm spammable.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A phantasm spam mirage is also broken and can't use chronophantasma. Chronophantasma just increase an existing problem not cause it.

> > > > > > So balance the problem and not traits which not cause the problem and which you make useless for every other build not based on phantasm spam. It's like nerfing core traitlines to balance op elite specs. It is just balance changes at the wrong plances anet is known for and now ppl in forums even ask for bad balance desicions... it is just not logic to not balance the problem itself. cut some leaves instead the roots.

> > > > >

> > > > > Phantasm spam Mirage actually took a really solid hit in the skillsplit now that they can't effortlessly get 25 might. You've seen a huge migration from the Mirage build towards the Chronomancer duelist build as a result.

> > > > >

> > > > > The reworked definitely over tuned a number of phantasms. But any phantasm is going to be overpowered when one trait and one heal skill literally quadruple their damage. Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether can't be allowed to exist in a post phantasm rework work. Anything like Imagined Burden and the Phantasmal Warlocks should be condensed into one phantasm. I think this change alone should do wonders for the game.

> > > >

> > > > Neither the trait nor the heal will be a problem when phantasm turn into clones after one attack but every other change of the mechnic get just reverted. Kill the problem itself. The heal and chronophantasm are not broken in any build not based on phantasm spam (the heal will be back into his "never-used"-state then anyway). When phantasm count into the max of 3 illusions again mesmer has to think about when to cast his phantasms, to not have more than 3 up at a time with chronophantasm. Skill balanced again.

> > >

> > > You're really incoherent sounding and it's hard to parse what you're actually suggesting. Are you arguing for the mesmer rework to be completely reverted except for phantasms turning into clones after a single attack?

> > >

> > > Also the heal and the trait are literally the source of the phantasm spam. If you eliminated those and removed Imagined Burden and condensed Phantasmal Warlock, you couldn't really spam phantasms because the cooldowns would actually be cooldowns and hard limits on how many phantasms they could summon. Chronomancers being able to potentially summon 8 Avengers, 6 Defenders, and 4 Disenchanters is out of this world.

> >

> > Yes i ask for revert all the phantasm changes except the one that make phantams turn into clones after one attack. Rework the utility phantasms wich only make sense when permanently up in a way that don't give them 10k hits and then its done. All skills/traits now give 2 phantasms instead one get revert/reworked to only give one phantasm. Phantasms count into the max limit of 3 illusions up (that is rly enough in terms of visual clutter) and make them able to get shattered as phantams if the player want to shatter them before they turn into clones.

> >

> > But ofc you can try it like you say and make these skills useless for every other build not based on phantasm spam. If you think that is the correct way. I just don't see any reason for the new phantasm mechanic to exist in the first place. It was mostly made to prevent player in pve to summon 3 permanent phantasms and go afk until the npc boss is dead. For that it is enough that phantasms turn into clones after one attack. If you just nerf every trait and skill that never was an issue before that rework, so mesmer is limited to only 3 illusions up in this way then ok. The result will be the same, except that you just don't make traits useless for other builds than phantasmbuilds when you just revert the real problem and not traits wich never were an issue before the rework. I rly get tired of arguing, anet will find the worst way of balancing this broken mechanic anyway, so why i even waste my time...

>

> Before the rework phantasms were all completely useless in PvP but as shatter fodder except the Greatsword Phantasm. Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether weren't a problem in PvP because Phantasms basically didn't do anything. It didn't actually increase Phantasm damage, in increased your ability to shatter. We'd actually reached a point in PvE where phantasms weren't worth using, period with the exception of Boonshare Chronomancer. The rework wasn't just about making shatters useful in long PvE encounters but also making Phantasms more impactful in general and I agree with both general impulses. Back before Path of Fire Arenanet gave all the Mesmer phantasms a unique spell the mesmer themselves would cast for this effect. The problem is that not only are a majority of phantasms extremely overtuned but a single trait and a single heal quadruples their damage. Once we fix Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether we can treat Phantasms like they really are; mesmer skills with unique delivery systems that add ammo for our class mechanic, and balance them accordingly.

 

They were not completely useless, they just did their one attack what was good dmg already (pistol did good dmg, the weapon only not get used because not enough defensive and disengage potential when getting focused, zerker did good dmg, torch didn't do too much dmg because it is more a defensive weapon and somehow also condiweapon, focus made insane dmg when hit, sword offhand phantasm already hit like a truck, staff phantasm hit like a truck when it hit but the projectil was a bit slow etc). Mesmer class mechanic is shatters, a phantasm shouldnt do anything more than make one attack and then disappear. That is exactly what the new rule stands for. Phantasm turn into clones after one attack. No other changes were needed for pvp/wvw (except reword some utility phantasms which only make sense when permanent up). Phantasm spam builds shouldnt exist. Phantasm were a good ADDITIONAL dmg source already before patch. Nothing more they should be in a shatterbased build.

 

But as said balance stuff like you say, balance around the problem and make traits not causing the base-problem useless in any other build not based on phantasm spam but don't start crying about less build-diversity for mesmers after pls.

[Odik.4587]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

>

> Phantasm spam Mirage actually took a really solid hit in the skillsplit now that they can't effortlessly get 25 might. You've seen a huge migration from the Mirage build towards the Chronomancer duelist build as a result.

>

> The reworked definitely over tuned a number of phantasms. But any phantasm is going to be overpowered when one trait and one heal skill literally quadruple their damage. Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether can't be allowed to exist in a post phantasm rework work. Anything like Imagined Burden and the Phantasmal Warlocks should be condensed into one phantasm. I think this change alone should do wonders for the game.

 

At least one person understand this , i thought thats impossible ...

You came up to this on your own or seen my post ? :)

(you know, by removing double phantasms ,thats mean less clones and less quickness/might from illusions traitline)

[FyzE.3472]

ScourgeWars 2.0

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046" said:

> > When combat log tells you to just stand and take it "It will be over soon my child" :'(

>

> Why don't you make like a Mesmer and evade away.

 

XD because i dont find the profession interesting enough to play for more than a hour at a time. It fails at doing what it was designed to do. Nothing about the way you play it is tricky. Thief can be far more tricky than a mesmer can.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Hylo.1968" said:

> > > > > > > > > > what do you think?

> > > > > > > > > > Sword ambush now have a **chance** to daze the enemy (30-40%)

> > > > > > > > > > Cronophantasma now leave your resummoned clones with lower hps and thus have a 50% dmg reduction

> > > > > > > > > > GS ambush might stack reduced from 2 per hit to 1, as well as vulnerability.

> > > > > > > > > > Mirage cloak duration now have a 15% reduced duration (3/4 sec instead of 1whole second)

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Introducing more rng is bad, the player need fixed cds and sure procs to work with, x% chance to daze is just a bad solution. Better give it a cooldown, but i don't think that is needed. I don't see any problem with sword ambush on a not anyway lame build (means phantasmspam build). They could remove the clone it generates is the only change i would agree to.

> > > > > > > > > Mirage cloak was increased from beta because 3/4 was too bad.

> > > > > > > > > Don't nerf traits/skills which don't cause the problems. The new phantasm mechanic is the problem not chronophantasma trait. Nerfing the trait makes it useless for every build not based on phantasmspam. Chronophantasma was totally fine before this stupid new phantasm rules.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Jojo.6590" said:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Mesmer can initiate burst from stealth.

> > > > > > > > > When not played with Mass Invis the mesmer has 3 seconds stealth, every semi decent player knows when to dodge when a mesmer goes into stealth. This is a very not so good player problem in PvP. Stop complaining about something only very not so good player cry about and that since gamerelease 2012... Pure glass power shatter is still a not viable build, very hard to play vs not very not so good player. It is only a good newbie and baddies-killer. Its ridiculous to cry about such a build.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I guarantee you more Mesmers would rather keep the new phantasm mechanics rather than reverting them for the sake of a single trait.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That is why Anet should not ask them, seriously. It is not about revert the new rule for the sake of a trait, it is about revert the phantasm rule because it is broken itself. And trying to make it balanced by nerf traits that don't cause the problem in the first place is just the same bad balance anet is doing so often. Mesmers class mechanic is about shattering, so there is no reason a phantasm spam build should even exist, not by having perma living phantams in the old rule but also not by having 2000 million high dmg phantams with the new rule. The only change was needed to kill the pve build that has 3 phantasms permanently up and only autoattacked to the content was making phantams turn into clones after one attack. Problem solved. If mesmer need to get compentsated in pve for the dmg lose than compensate them in pve only. In PvP the change is a buff to shattermesmer already and don't need more dmg on phantams or more skills/ traits with 2 instead of 1 phantasm spammable.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > A phantasm spam mirage is also broken and can't use chronophantasma. Chronophantasma just increase an existing problem not cause it.

> > > > > > > So balance the problem and not traits which not cause the problem and which you make useless for every other build not based on phantasm spam. It's like nerfing core traitlines to balance op elite specs. It is just balance changes at the wrong plances anet is known for and now ppl in forums even ask for bad balance desicions... it is just not logic to not balance the problem itself. cut some leaves instead the roots.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Phantasm spam Mirage actually took a really solid hit in the skillsplit now that they can't effortlessly get 25 might. You've seen a huge migration from the Mirage build towards the Chronomancer duelist build as a result.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The reworked definitely over tuned a number of phantasms. But any phantasm is going to be overpowered when one trait and one heal skill literally quadruple their damage. Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether can't be allowed to exist in a post phantasm rework work. Anything like Imagined Burden and the Phantasmal Warlocks should be condensed into one phantasm. I think this change alone should do wonders for the game.

> > > > >

> > > > > Neither the trait nor the heal will be a problem when phantasm turn into clones after one attack but every other change of the mechnic get just reverted. Kill the problem itself. The heal and chronophantasm are not broken in any build not based on phantasm spam (the heal will be back into his "never-used"-state then anyway). When phantasm count into the max of 3 illusions again mesmer has to think about when to cast his phantasms, to not have more than 3 up at a time with chronophantasm. Skill balanced again.

> > > >

> > > > You're really incoherent sounding and it's hard to parse what you're actually suggesting. Are you arguing for the mesmer rework to be completely reverted except for phantasms turning into clones after a single attack?

> > > >

> > > > Also the heal and the trait are literally the source of the phantasm spam. If you eliminated those and removed Imagined Burden and condensed Phantasmal Warlock, you couldn't really spam phantasms because the cooldowns would actually be cooldowns and hard limits on how many phantasms they could summon. Chronomancers being able to potentially summon 8 Avengers, 6 Defenders, and 4 Disenchanters is out of this world.

> > >

> > > Yes i ask for revert all the phantasm changes except the one that make phantams turn into clones after one attack. Rework the utility phantasms wich only make sense when permanently up in a way that don't give them 10k hits and then its done. All skills/traits now give 2 phantasms instead one get revert/reworked to only give one phantasm. Phantasms count into the max limit of 3 illusions up (that is rly enough in terms of visual clutter) and make them able to get shattered as phantams if the player want to shatter them before they turn into clones.

> > >

> > > But ofc you can try it like you say and make these skills useless for every other build not based on phantasm spam. If you think that is the correct way. I just don't see any reason for the new phantasm mechanic to exist in the first place. It was mostly made to prevent player in pve to summon 3 permanent phantasms and go afk until the npc boss is dead. For that it is enough that phantasms turn into clones after one attack. If you just nerf every trait and skill that never was an issue before that rework, so mesmer is limited to only 3 illusions up in this way then ok. The result will be the same, except that you just don't make traits useless for other builds than phantasmbuilds when you just revert the real problem and not traits wich never were an issue before the rework. I rly get tired of arguing, anet will find the worst way of balancing this broken mechanic anyway, so why i even waste my time...

> >

> > Before the rework phantasms were all completely useless in PvP but as shatter fodder except the Greatsword Phantasm. Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether weren't a problem in PvP because Phantasms basically didn't do anything. It didn't actually increase Phantasm damage, in increased your ability to shatter. We'd actually reached a point in PvE where phantasms weren't worth using, period with the exception of Boonshare Chronomancer. The rework wasn't just about making shatters useful in long PvE encounters but also making Phantasms more impactful in general and I agree with both general impulses. Back before Path of Fire Arenanet gave all the Mesmer phantasms a unique spell the mesmer themselves would cast for this effect. The problem is that not only are a majority of phantasms extremely overtuned but a single trait and a single heal quadruples their damage. Once we fix Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether we can treat Phantasms like they really are; mesmer skills with unique delivery systems that add ammo for our class mechanic, and balance them accordingly.

>

> They were not completely useless, they just did their one attack what was good dmg already (pistol does good dmg, the weapon only not get used because not enough defensive and disengage potential when getting focused, zerker did good dmg, torch didn't do too much dmg because it is more a defensive weapon and somehow also condiweapon, focus made insane dmg when hit, sword offhand phantasm already hit like a truck, staff phantasm hit like a truck when it hit but the projectil was a bit slow etc). Mesmer class mechanic is shatters, a phantasm shouldnt do anything more than make one attack and then disappear. That is exactly what the new rules does. Phantasm turn into clones after one attack. No other changes were needed for pvp/wvw (except reword some utility phantasms which only make sense when permanent up). Phantasm spam builds shouldnt exist. Phantasm were a good ADDITIONAL dmg source already before patch. Nothing more they should be in a shatterbased build.

>

> But as said balance stuff like you say, balance around the problem and make traits not causing the base-problem useless in any other build not based on phantasm spam but don't start crying about less build-diversity for mesmers after pls.

 

They _were_ useless except as shatter fodder.

 

Pistol did the worst damage of any of them. Swords and Focus hit hard but you were never going to tag another player with those. Staff in no way "Hit like a truck." It was comparable to one hit of a warrior's Bladetrail. If someone was a complete maniac and running some kind of crazy garbage power crit staff build. Berseker was the only phantasm where the phantasm's attack meant anything and was capable of hitting the target. The utility phantasms were completely worthless in PvP and PvE. They were not good additional damage. They were only ever useful in PvE on long boss engagements and even then aside from Phantasmal Avengers providing Alacrity for Boonshare Chronos, were made _completely obsolete_ with the advent of Mirage and Infinite Horizon. The game had reached a point where the best damage was for mesmers to never use phantasms ever. A rework was absolutely needed. But as I said before, phantasms can never be balanced when they are both simultaneously impactful, and Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether can multiply their impactfulness by 4X.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > But there would be a telegraph. You could still see the the mirror blade or stun daze and react to it.

>

> Doesn't that depend on the location of the caster? If they are close to you or behind you, you have less time to react to the initial blade.

>

> That being said, I concede on that one point. Camera angle is not a suitable excuse, if the telegraph exists it exists.

> That is a portion of Mesmer's core though. I would rather the focus be on the phantasms/elite specs rather than general Mesmer performance, so I'll cool down on the wild rhetoric.

>

> Something -does- need to be done though. I'm still taking issue with the people pretending it's fine.

 

Only mirror blade of those 2 things has a tell. If the mesmer already charged a mantra out of LoS you have no way to see the stun coming the first time maybe if they stealth first you can dodge and get lucky but generally most mesmer cc's have no tell or very little tell.

On a side note most mesmer will attempt to launch mirror blade very close to prevent you from being able to see it when this happens its usually gg casue 2 mantras and a shatter comes out at the same time.

 

To assume something will come after a certain time period from stealth is not a true tell. Thats not what a tell is and mesmers use this as an excuse to say they have easy "Tells" A tell is the wind up animation that lets a person know you might want to avoid this. Any time thats hidden with stealth assuming that it might come after 2-3 seconds is a good strategy but thats not a tell when its hidden.

 

Most mesmers just play the same so the community labeled "them going into stealth" on as a massive tell. In reality thats not really a tell at all. Stealth is a defensive avoidance mechanic not a warning tell.

 

Really i dont care about them having stealth or doing attacks from stealth but eating through over 20k hp in that instant shouldnt be a thing and I do consider that over performing. No other profession can do this right now with the exception of deadeye and they have to be in combat with the target for some time (marked) and immobile before they can even attempt it. There should be more viable ways of dealing with a mesmer right now those ways are too few in number. 1 of which is to simply play a mesmer.

 

[bravan.3876]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Hylo.1968" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > what do you think?

> > > > > > > > > > > Sword ambush now have a **chance** to daze the enemy (30-40%)

> > > > > > > > > > > Cronophantasma now leave your resummoned clones with lower hps and thus have a 50% dmg reduction

> > > > > > > > > > > GS ambush might stack reduced from 2 per hit to 1, as well as vulnerability.

> > > > > > > > > > > Mirage cloak duration now have a 15% reduced duration (3/4 sec instead of 1whole second)

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Introducing more rng is bad, the player need fixed cds and sure procs to work with, x% chance to daze is just a bad solution. Better give it a cooldown, but i don't think that is needed. I don't see any problem with sword ambush on a not anyway lame build (means phantasmspam build). They could remove the clone it generates is the only change i would agree to.

> > > > > > > > > > Mirage cloak was increased from beta because 3/4 was too bad.

> > > > > > > > > > Don't nerf traits/skills which don't cause the problems. The new phantasm mechanic is the problem not chronophantasma trait. Nerfing the trait makes it useless for every build not based on phantasmspam. Chronophantasma was totally fine before this stupid new phantasm rules.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jojo.6590" said:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer can initiate burst from stealth.

> > > > > > > > > > When not played with Mass Invis the mesmer has 3 seconds stealth, every semi decent player knows when to dodge when a mesmer goes into stealth. This is a very not so good player problem in PvP. Stop complaining about something only very not so good player cry about and that since gamerelease 2012... Pure glass power shatter is still a not viable build, very hard to play vs not very not so good player. It is only a good newbie and baddies-killer. Its ridiculous to cry about such a build.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I guarantee you more Mesmers would rather keep the new phantasm mechanics rather than reverting them for the sake of a single trait.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > That is why Anet should not ask them, seriously. It is not about revert the new rule for the sake of a trait, it is about revert the phantasm rule because it is broken itself. And trying to make it balanced by nerf traits that don't cause the problem in the first place is just the same bad balance anet is doing so often. Mesmers class mechanic is about shattering, so there is no reason a phantasm spam build should even exist, not by having perma living phantams in the old rule but also not by having 2000 million high dmg phantams with the new rule. The only change was needed to kill the pve build that has 3 phantasms permanently up and only autoattacked to the content was making phantams turn into clones after one attack. Problem solved. If mesmer need to get compentsated in pve for the dmg lose than compensate them in pve only. In PvP the change is a buff to shattermesmer already and don't need more dmg on phantams or more skills/ traits with 2 instead of 1 phantasm spammable.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > A phantasm spam mirage is also broken and can't use chronophantasma. Chronophantasma just increase an existing problem not cause it.

> > > > > > > > So balance the problem and not traits which not cause the problem and which you make useless for every other build not based on phantasm spam. It's like nerfing core traitlines to balance op elite specs. It is just balance changes at the wrong plances anet is known for and now ppl in forums even ask for bad balance desicions... it is just not logic to not balance the problem itself. cut some leaves instead the roots.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Phantasm spam Mirage actually took a really solid hit in the skillsplit now that they can't effortlessly get 25 might. You've seen a huge migration from the Mirage build towards the Chronomancer duelist build as a result.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The reworked definitely over tuned a number of phantasms. But any phantasm is going to be overpowered when one trait and one heal skill literally quadruple their damage. Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether can't be allowed to exist in a post phantasm rework work. Anything like Imagined Burden and the Phantasmal Warlocks should be condensed into one phantasm. I think this change alone should do wonders for the game.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Neither the trait nor the heal will be a problem when phantasm turn into clones after one attack but every other change of the mechnic get just reverted. Kill the problem itself. The heal and chronophantasm are not broken in any build not based on phantasm spam (the heal will be back into his "never-used"-state then anyway). When phantasm count into the max of 3 illusions again mesmer has to think about when to cast his phantasms, to not have more than 3 up at a time with chronophantasm. Skill balanced again.

> > > > >

> > > > > You're really incoherent sounding and it's hard to parse what you're actually suggesting. Are you arguing for the mesmer rework to be completely reverted except for phantasms turning into clones after a single attack?

> > > > >

> > > > > Also the heal and the trait are literally the source of the phantasm spam. If you eliminated those and removed Imagined Burden and condensed Phantasmal Warlock, you couldn't really spam phantasms because the cooldowns would actually be cooldowns and hard limits on how many phantasms they could summon. Chronomancers being able to potentially summon 8 Avengers, 6 Defenders, and 4 Disenchanters is out of this world.

> > > >

> > > > Yes i ask for revert all the phantasm changes except the one that make phantams turn into clones after one attack. Rework the utility phantasms wich only make sense when permanently up in a way that don't give them 10k hits and then its done. All skills/traits now give 2 phantasms instead one get revert/reworked to only give one phantasm. Phantasms count into the max limit of 3 illusions up (that is rly enough in terms of visual clutter) and make them able to get shattered as phantams if the player want to shatter them before they turn into clones.

> > > >

> > > > But ofc you can try it like you say and make these skills useless for every other build not based on phantasm spam. If you think that is the correct way. I just don't see any reason for the new phantasm mechanic to exist in the first place. It was mostly made to prevent player in pve to summon 3 permanent phantasms and go afk until the npc boss is dead. For that it is enough that phantasms turn into clones after one attack. If you just nerf every trait and skill that never was an issue before that rework, so mesmer is limited to only 3 illusions up in this way then ok. The result will be the same, except that you just don't make traits useless for other builds than phantasmbuilds when you just revert the real problem and not traits wich never were an issue before the rework. I rly get tired of arguing, anet will find the worst way of balancing this broken mechanic anyway, so why i even waste my time...

> > >

> > > Before the rework phantasms were all completely useless in PvP but as shatter fodder except the Greatsword Phantasm. Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether weren't a problem in PvP because Phantasms basically didn't do anything. It didn't actually increase Phantasm damage, in increased your ability to shatter. We'd actually reached a point in PvE where phantasms weren't worth using, period with the exception of Boonshare Chronomancer. The rework wasn't just about making shatters useful in long PvE encounters but also making Phantasms more impactful in general and I agree with both general impulses. Back before Path of Fire Arenanet gave all the Mesmer phantasms a unique spell the mesmer themselves would cast for this effect. The problem is that not only are a majority of phantasms extremely overtuned but a single trait and a single heal quadruples their damage. Once we fix Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether we can treat Phantasms like they really are; mesmer skills with unique delivery systems that add ammo for our class mechanic, and balance them accordingly.

> >

> > They were not completely useless, they just did their one attack what was good dmg already (pistol does good dmg, the weapon only not get used because not enough defensive and disengage potential when getting focused, zerker did good dmg, torch didn't do too much dmg because it is more a defensive weapon and somehow also condiweapon, focus made insane dmg when hit, sword offhand phantasm already hit like a truck, staff phantasm hit like a truck when it hit but the projectil was a bit slow etc). Mesmer class mechanic is shatters, a phantasm shouldnt do anything more than make one attack and then disappear. That is exactly what the new rules does. Phantasm turn into clones after one attack. No other changes were needed for pvp/wvw (except reword some utility phantasms which only make sense when permanent up). Phantasm spam builds shouldnt exist. Phantasm were a good ADDITIONAL dmg source already before patch. Nothing more they should be in a shatterbased build.

> >

> > But as said balance stuff like you say, balance around the problem and make traits not causing the base-problem useless in any other build not based on phantasm spam but don't start crying about less build-diversity for mesmers after pls.

>

> They _were_ useless except as shatter fodder.

 

 

In a shatterbased build that is exactly their job and nothing more. They do one attack and shattermesmers let the phantasms do their attack mostly because the dmg was good. It is just wrong that mesmer in PvP didn't use their phantasm anymore because they didn't do any dmg. And ofc staff hit like a truck when the target had some conditions on (you had to play staff correctly to get good dmg from the phantasm, what a stupid consept that something need knowledge/skill to get good...). I never had a problem to get the sword phantasm hit before the patch and focus got an immob in additon before the phantasm spawns, to make the chance of a hit higher, that already before the reword patch. Pistol did high dmg already and that on max range wtf. I played all these weapons myself, as a not main mesmer i didn't care for meta and just played what i had fun with. Pistol, sword offhand and gs berserker were the strongest phantasms in terms of dmg combined with the good chance to hit. Focus was more of a defensive weapon just like torch so less dmg or less chance to hit, balance that makes sense.

 

Mesmer is a shatterclass (see class mechanic is shatters), phantasms shouldnt ever play a main part in any build, they do one attack and done, so everything is more or less shatter folder because mesmers mechanic is shatters.

 

 

 

 

[Ghos.1326]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > But there would be a telegraph. You could still see the the mirror blade or stun daze and react to it.

> >

> > Doesn't that depend on the location of the caster? If they are close to you or behind you, you have less time to react to the initial blade.

> >

> > That being said, I concede on that one point. Camera angle is not a suitable excuse, if the telegraph exists it exists.

> > That is a portion of Mesmer's core though. I would rather the focus be on the phantasms/elite specs rather than general Mesmer performance, so I'll cool down on the wild rhetoric.

> >

> > Something -does- need to be done though. I'm still taking issue with the people pretending it's fine.

>

> Only mirror blade of those 2 things has a tell. If the mesmer already charged a mantra out of LoS you have no way to see the stun coming the first time maybe if they stealth first you can dodge and get lucky but generally most mesmer cc's have no tell or very little tell.

> On a side note most mesmer will attempt to launch mirror blade very close to prevent you from being able to see it when this happens its usually gg casue 2 mantras and a shatter comes out at the same time.

>

> To assume something will come after a certain time period from stealth is not a true tell. Thats not what a tell is and mesmers use this as an excuse to say they have easy "Tells" A tell is the wind up animation that lets a person know you might want to avoid this. Any time thats hidden with stealth assuming that it might come after 2-3 seconds is a good strategy but thats not a tell when its hidden.

>

> Most mesmers just play the same so the community labeled "them going into stealth" on as a massive tell. In reality thats not really a tell at all. Stealth is a defensive avoidance mechanic not a warning tell.

>

> Really i dont care about them having stealth or doing attacks from stealth but eating through over 20k hp in that instant shouldnt be a thing and I do consider that over performing. No other profession can do this right now with the exception of deadeye and they have to be in combat with the target for some time (marked) and immobile before they can even attempt it. There should be more viable ways of dealing with a mesmer right now those ways are too few in number. 1 of which is to simply play a mesmer.

>

 

To further support this, even Deadeyes have true tells in stealth. Their skill kicks them out of stealth and charges up with a laser sight on you before firing. So you know where they are, what they are about to do, and have ample time to avoid it, even if they are buffed with quickness. Mesmers don't, their clone shatters and attacks hit you before the tell appears, and not only hit you, but demolish you.

[FyzE.3472]

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/35533/mesmer-clone-amount-makes-player-models-disappear

this counts as feedback, right?

[bravan.3876]

> @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > But there would be a telegraph. You could still see the the mirror blade or stun daze and react to it.

> > >

> > > Doesn't that depend on the location of the caster? If they are close to you or behind you, you have less time to react to the initial blade.

> > >

> > > That being said, I concede on that one point. Camera angle is not a suitable excuse, if the telegraph exists it exists.

> > > That is a portion of Mesmer's core though. I would rather the focus be on the phantasms/elite specs rather than general Mesmer performance, so I'll cool down on the wild rhetoric.

> > >

> > > Something -does- need to be done though. I'm still taking issue with the people pretending it's fine.

> >

> > Only mirror blade of those 2 things has a tell. If the mesmer already charged a mantra out of LoS you have no way to see the stun coming the first time maybe if they stealth first you can dodge and get lucky but generally most mesmer cc's have no tell or very little tell.

> > On a side note most mesmer will attempt to launch mirror blade very close to prevent you from being able to see it when this happens its usually gg casue 2 mantras and a shatter comes out at the same time.

> >

> > To assume something will come after a certain time period from stealth is not a true tell. Thats not what a tell is and mesmers use this as an excuse to say they have easy "Tells" A tell is the wind up animation that lets a person know you might want to avoid this. Any time thats hidden with stealth assuming that it might come after 2-3 seconds is a good strategy but thats not a tell when its hidden.

> >

> > Most mesmers just play the same so the community labeled "them going into stealth" on as a massive tell. In reality thats not really a tell at all. Stealth is a defensive avoidance mechanic not a warning tell.

> >

> > Really i dont care about them having stealth or doing attacks from stealth but eating through over 20k hp in that instant shouldnt be a thing and I do consider that over performing. No other profession can do this right now with the exception of deadeye and they have to be in combat with the target for some time (marked) and immobile before they can even attempt it. There should be more viable ways of dealing with a mesmer right now those ways are too few in number. 1 of which is to simply play a mesmer.

> >

>

> To further support this, even Deadeyes have true tells in stealth. Their skill kicks them out of stealth and charges up with a laser sight on you before firing. So you know where they are, what they are about to do, and have ample time to avoid it, even if they are buffed with quickness. Mesmers don't, their clone shatters and attacks hit you before the tell appears, and not only hit you, but demolish you.

 

Except that you are already dazed before and he is back in stealth before you can counter attack when played well and he can repeat that as often as he want by waiting in stealth as long as he want.

 

Mesmer can oneshot by using a 6 button combo out of stealth since game release but some very not so good player never get tired to cry for nerfs no semi decent player has any problem with. In WvW a mesmer and thief can be sneaky and hit you before you even know he is near yes, but it is only WvW no match get lost you don't die irl. The mesmer get a gimmick oneshot, he and you knows that this don't need any bigger skill than being able to press 6 buttons very fast in a row. So ask him for duel after the oneshot or chase him and be happy how ez a pure glass shattermes is to kill aside from oneshotting unaware or very not so good ppl in WvW.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > But there would be a telegraph. You could still see the the mirror blade or stun daze and react to it.

> > >

> > > Doesn't that depend on the location of the caster? If they are close to you or behind you, you have less time to react to the initial blade.

> > >

> > > That being said, I concede on that one point. Camera angle is not a suitable excuse, if the telegraph exists it exists.

> > > That is a portion of Mesmer's core though. I would rather the focus be on the phantasms/elite specs rather than general Mesmer performance, so I'll cool down on the wild rhetoric.

> > >

> > > Something -does- need to be done though. I'm still taking issue with the people pretending it's fine.

> >

> > Only mirror blade of those 2 things has a tell. If the mesmer already charged a mantra out of LoS you have no way to see the stun coming the first time maybe if they stealth first you can dodge and get lucky but generally most mesmer cc's have no tell or very little tell.

> > On a side note most mesmer will attempt to launch mirror blade very close to prevent you from being able to see it when this happens its usually gg casue 2 mantras and a shatter comes out at the same time.

> >

> > To assume something will come after a certain time period from stealth is not a true tell. Thats not what a tell is and mesmers use this as an excuse to say they have easy "Tells" A tell is the wind up animation that lets a person know you might want to avoid this. Any time thats hidden with stealth assuming that it might come after 2-3 seconds is a good strategy but thats not a tell when its hidden.

> >

> > Most mesmers just play the same so the community labeled "them going into stealth" on as a massive tell. In reality thats not really a tell at all. Stealth is a defensive avoidance mechanic not a warning tell.

> >

> > Really i dont care about them having stealth or doing attacks from stealth but eating through over 20k hp in that instant shouldnt be a thing and I do consider that over performing. No other profession can do this right now with the exception of deadeye and they have to be in combat with the target for some time (marked) and immobile before they can even attempt it. There should be more viable ways of dealing with a mesmer right now those ways are too few in number. 1 of which is to simply play a mesmer.

> >

>

> To further support this, even Deadeyes have true tells in stealth. Their skill kicks them out of stealth and charges up with a laser sight on you before firing. So you know where they are, what they are about to do, and have ample time to avoid it, even if they are buffed with quickness. Mesmers don't, their clone shatters and attacks hit you before the tell appears, and not only hit you, but demolish you.

 

Effective Deadeyes don't focus on death's judgement. Cursed bullet can already crit for 10k on targets with Demolisher's amulet and few things around going to survive following three round burst of of which are boosted by quickness. You don't get the fancy lazer pointer and they're going to attack you as soon as the mark goes up on you. You have about as much time to react to that as a Burst mesmer.

 

There is a world of difference between a deadeye's survivability and dependence on positioning. But the actual way the top deadeye build plays is almost as bursty as mesmer, does it at a much farther range and has better access to stealth tanks to the elite cantrip and the Sniper's stealth kneel.

[Ghos.1326]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > But there would be a telegraph. You could still see the the mirror blade or stun daze and react to it.

> > > >

> > > > Doesn't that depend on the location of the caster? If they are close to you or behind you, you have less time to react to the initial blade.

> > > >

> > > > That being said, I concede on that one point. Camera angle is not a suitable excuse, if the telegraph exists it exists.

> > > > That is a portion of Mesmer's core though. I would rather the focus be on the phantasms/elite specs rather than general Mesmer performance, so I'll cool down on the wild rhetoric.

> > > >

> > > > Something -does- need to be done though. I'm still taking issue with the people pretending it's fine.

> > >

> > > Only mirror blade of those 2 things has a tell. If the mesmer already charged a mantra out of LoS you have no way to see the stun coming the first time maybe if they stealth first you can dodge and get lucky but generally most mesmer cc's have no tell or very little tell.

> > > On a side note most mesmer will attempt to launch mirror blade very close to prevent you from being able to see it when this happens its usually gg casue 2 mantras and a shatter comes out at the same time.

> > >

> > > To assume something will come after a certain time period from stealth is not a true tell. Thats not what a tell is and mesmers use this as an excuse to say they have easy "Tells" A tell is the wind up animation that lets a person know you might want to avoid this. Any time thats hidden with stealth assuming that it might come after 2-3 seconds is a good strategy but thats not a tell when its hidden.

> > >

> > > Most mesmers just play the same so the community labeled "them going into stealth" on as a massive tell. In reality thats not really a tell at all. Stealth is a defensive avoidance mechanic not a warning tell.

> > >

> > > Really i dont care about them having stealth or doing attacks from stealth but eating through over 20k hp in that instant shouldnt be a thing and I do consider that over performing. No other profession can do this right now with the exception of deadeye and they have to be in combat with the target for some time (marked) and immobile before they can even attempt it. There should be more viable ways of dealing with a mesmer right now those ways are too few in number. 1 of which is to simply play a mesmer.

> > >

> >

> > To further support this, even Deadeyes have true tells in stealth. Their skill kicks them out of stealth and charges up with a laser sight on you before firing. So you know where they are, what they are about to do, and have ample time to avoid it, even if they are buffed with quickness. Mesmers don't, their clone shatters and attacks hit you before the tell appears, and not only hit you, but demolish you.

>

> Except that you are already dazed before and he is back in stealth before you can counter attack when played well and he can repeat that as often as he want by waiting in stealth as long as he want.

>

> Mesmer can oneshot by using a 6 button combo out of stealth since game release but some very not so good player never get tired to cry for nerfs no semi decent player has any problem with. In WvW a mesmer and thief can be sneaky and hit you before you even know he is near yes, but it is only WvW no match get lost you don't die irl. The mesmer get a gimmick oneshot, he and you knows that this don't need any bigger skill than being able to press 6 buttons very fast in a row. So ask him for duel after the oneshot or chase him and be happy how ez a pure glass shattermes is to kill aside from oneshotting unaware or very not so good ppl in WvW.

 

Thing is, he's not so easy to kill. he also has access to invulns, great evades (both offensive and defensive if playing mirage), as well as mobility. Not every profession's builds have access to mobility like a thief or a mesmer, so chasing them wouldn't be optimal. If you chased them, they could stealth up again and then do 1 of 2 things. bomb you with the second mind wrack wombo combo that melts 80% of your hp again, or fall back to the cap for jukes and decap.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > But there would be a telegraph. You could still see the the mirror blade or stun daze and react to it.

> > > >

> > > > Doesn't that depend on the location of the caster? If they are close to you or behind you, you have less time to react to the initial blade.

> > > >

> > > > That being said, I concede on that one point. Camera angle is not a suitable excuse, if the telegraph exists it exists.

> > > > That is a portion of Mesmer's core though. I would rather the focus be on the phantasms/elite specs rather than general Mesmer performance, so I'll cool down on the wild rhetoric.

> > > >

> > > > Something -does- need to be done though. I'm still taking issue with the people pretending it's fine.

> > >

> > > Only mirror blade of those 2 things has a tell. If the mesmer already charged a mantra out of LoS you have no way to see the stun coming the first time maybe if they stealth first you can dodge and get lucky but generally most mesmer cc's have no tell or very little tell.

> > > On a side note most mesmer will attempt to launch mirror blade very close to prevent you from being able to see it when this happens its usually gg casue 2 mantras and a shatter comes out at the same time.

> > >

> > > To assume something will come after a certain time period from stealth is not a true tell. Thats not what a tell is and mesmers use this as an excuse to say they have easy "Tells" A tell is the wind up animation that lets a person know you might want to avoid this. Any time thats hidden with stealth assuming that it might come after 2-3 seconds is a good strategy but thats not a tell when its hidden.

> > >

> > > Most mesmers just play the same so the community labeled "them going into stealth" on as a massive tell. In reality thats not really a tell at all. Stealth is a defensive avoidance mechanic not a warning tell.

> > >

> > > Really i dont care about them having stealth or doing attacks from stealth but eating through over 20k hp in that instant shouldnt be a thing and I do consider that over performing. No other profession can do this right now with the exception of deadeye and they have to be in combat with the target for some time (marked) and immobile before they can even attempt it. There should be more viable ways of dealing with a mesmer right now those ways are too few in number. 1 of which is to simply play a mesmer.

> > >

> >

> > To further support this, even Deadeyes have true tells in stealth. Their skill kicks them out of stealth and charges up with a laser sight on you before firing. So you know where they are, what they are about to do, and have ample time to avoid it, even if they are buffed with quickness. Mesmers don't, their clone shatters and attacks hit you before the tell appears, and not only hit you, but demolish you.

>

> Except that you are already dazed before and he is back in stealth before you can counter attack when played well and he can repeat that as often as he want by waiting in stealth as long as he want.

>

> Mesmer can oneshot by using a 6 button combo out of stealth since game release but some very not so good player never get tired to cry for nerfs no semi decent player has any problem with. In WvW a mesmer and thief can be sneaky and hit you before you even know he is near yes, but it is only WvW no match get lost you don't die irl. The mesmer get a gimmick oneshot, he and you knows that this don't need any bigger skill than being able to press 6 buttons very fast in a row. So ask him for duel after the oneshot or chase him and be happy how ez a pure glass shattermes is to kill aside from oneshotting unaware or very not so good ppl in WvW.

 

No... if you cant counter attack it means that you just happen to be too far away. You can always run when targeted by a deadeye because the will have to mark you to 1 shot you **(that part is undeniable)** which gives you some counter play time. You cant do this with a mesmer.

More than likely if you dodged DJ there is enough time to react (remember DJ applies the revealed status meaning that the only way to re stealth is with the cantrip elite.) Which is also limited to 2 uses.

 

Dont use perma stealth as an excuse either there was a point where mesmer could also do this which still makes them just as bad.

Thief requires some set up time and time for the mark to generate malice Mesmer requires nothing but 2 cast and 4 instant cast skills with no real waiting time involved.

These are not the same in terms of balance.

 

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > But there would be a telegraph. You could still see the the mirror blade or stun daze and react to it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Doesn't that depend on the location of the caster? If they are close to you or behind you, you have less time to react to the initial blade.

> > > > >

> > > > > That being said, I concede on that one point. Camera angle is not a suitable excuse, if the telegraph exists it exists.

> > > > > That is a portion of Mesmer's core though. I would rather the focus be on the phantasms/elite specs rather than general Mesmer performance, so I'll cool down on the wild rhetoric.

> > > > >

> > > > > Something -does- need to be done though. I'm still taking issue with the people pretending it's fine.

> > > >

> > > > Only mirror blade of those 2 things has a tell. If the mesmer already charged a mantra out of LoS you have no way to see the stun coming the first time maybe if they stealth first you can dodge and get lucky but generally most mesmer cc's have no tell or very little tell.

> > > > On a side note most mesmer will attempt to launch mirror blade very close to prevent you from being able to see it when this happens its usually gg casue 2 mantras and a shatter comes out at the same time.

> > > >

> > > > To assume something will come after a certain time period from stealth is not a true tell. Thats not what a tell is and mesmers use this as an excuse to say they have easy "Tells" A tell is the wind up animation that lets a person know you might want to avoid this. Any time thats hidden with stealth assuming that it might come after 2-3 seconds is a good strategy but thats not a tell when its hidden.

> > > >

> > > > Most mesmers just play the same so the community labeled "them going into stealth" on as a massive tell. In reality thats not really a tell at all. Stealth is a defensive avoidance mechanic not a warning tell.

> > > >

> > > > Really i dont care about them having stealth or doing attacks from stealth but eating through over 20k hp in that instant shouldnt be a thing and I do consider that over performing. No other profession can do this right now with the exception of deadeye and they have to be in combat with the target for some time (marked) and immobile before they can even attempt it. There should be more viable ways of dealing with a mesmer right now those ways are too few in number. 1 of which is to simply play a mesmer.

> > > >

> > >

> > > To further support this, even Deadeyes have true tells in stealth. Their skill kicks them out of stealth and charges up with a laser sight on you before firing. So you know where they are, what they are about to do, and have ample time to avoid it, even if they are buffed with quickness. Mesmers don't, their clone shatters and attacks hit you before the tell appears, and not only hit you, but demolish you.

> >

> > Except that you are already dazed before and he is back in stealth before you can counter attack when played well and he can repeat that as often as he want by waiting in stealth as long as he want.

> >

> > Mesmer can oneshot by using a 6 button combo out of stealth since game release but some very not so good player never get tired to cry for nerfs no semi decent player has any problem with. In WvW a mesmer and thief can be sneaky and hit you before you even know he is near yes, but it is only WvW no match get lost you don't die irl. The mesmer get a gimmick oneshot, he and you knows that this don't need any bigger skill than being able to press 6 buttons very fast in a row. So ask him for duel after the oneshot or chase him and be happy how ez a pure glass shattermes is to kill aside from oneshotting unaware or very not so good ppl in WvW.

>

> No... if you cant counter attack it means that you just happen to be too far away. You can always run when targeted by a deadeye because the will have to mark you to 1 shot you **(that part is undeniable)** which gives you some counter play time. You cant do this with a mesmer.

> More than likely if you dodged DJ there is enough time to react (remember DJ applies the revealed status meaning that the only way to re stealth is with the cantrip elite.) Which is also limited to 2 uses.

>

> Dont use perma stealth as an excuse either there was a point where mesmer could also do this which still makes them just as bad.

> Thief requires some set up time and time for the mark to generate malice Mesmer requires nothing but 2 cast and 4 instant cast skills with no real waiting time involved.

> These are not the same in terms of balance.

>

 

**This is not how the top deadeye build plays at all.** They will mark you and burst you as soon as they mark you with quickness enhanced Cursed Bullet and Three Round bursts. It is almost as instantly lethal as a Power Shatter mirage. They do not wait around for Malice to Death's Judgement you. They will then cleave your downed body extremely quickly with quickness boosted pistolwhips.

 

There is a world of difference in Mirage's mobility and survivability that we can talk about. But actual effective deadeyes are as immensely lethal as Powershatter Mirages and have far more access to stealth.