Chaith.8256 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 Title, Juggernaut: Gain stability (3s) when you swap weapons in combat. (10s ICD) So simple, so needed. I could think of many more flavorful ways to re-do it, but that wouldn't please everyone. Thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 > @"Chaith.8256" said: > Title, > > Juggernaut: Gain stability (3s) when you swap weapons in combat. (10s ICD) > > So simple, so needed. I could think of many more flavorful ways to re-do it, but that wouldn't please everyone. > > Thoughts I'd like to see it worked into something I described a while ago to help core engineer out: > I said: > * Juggernaut functionality needs to be changed. Instead of granting stability and might with flamethrower equipped, it should grant +vit and +toughness per kit in your utility slots. This means if you're running 4 kits (or even 5, lul), you should get a fair amount of toughness and vit. This would give engineer some room to breathe as it swaps between kits, while also not unfairly overpowering scrapper or holo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iozeph.5617 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 You could keep juggernaut as is, with might gains included, and just apply it to all kits rather than only flamethrower. It still wouldn't be overpowered. Not with boon stripping/corruptions so common now. Worse, those mechanics are probably here to stay. With the ascendancy of crowd control and our inability to avoid those effects as easily as the recent past, a bit of semi-permanent stability wouldn't make us winners overnight. It might just allow us a hit or two in where we couldn't before. If being overpowered is still a worry then change Juggernaut to pulse stability and protection instead. Then have all protection applications mitigate against condition damage as well as physical. Again, with all the boon stripping and corruptions I don't see why this hasn't been done yet. There has to be a better counter to conditions than more vitality. And resistance didn't seem to offer quite the answer Anet hoped it would. At least not for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardid.7203 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > Title, > > > > Juggernaut: Gain stability (3s) when you swap weapons in combat. (10s ICD) > > > > So simple, so needed. I could think of many more flavorful ways to re-do it, but that wouldn't please everyone. > > > > Thoughts > > I'd like to see it worked into something I described a while ago to help core engineer out: > > > I said: > > * Juggernaut functionality needs to be changed. Instead of granting stability and might with flamethrower equipped, it should grant +vit and +toughness per kit in your utility slots. This means if you're running 4 kits (or even 5, lul), you should get a fair amount of toughness and vit. This would give engineer some room to breathe as it swaps between kits, while also not unfairly overpowering scrapper or holo. I really use the stability and might with Jugg, I don't think more vit or thoughness would be better. At least not for me, not in my core build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funkystuff.1563 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 with the latest patch especially holo and core engi feel so naked without stability. especially if you dont have stun breaks you are done for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David.5974 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Good idea and good step forward. I really hate Kit traits. Kits should be effective without trait - we pay for non swap , okay, make kits equal to their traits baseline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETWING.2759 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 No more fun on plays Holo... Too many hard work for nothing... Running Core Jugernaut currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolguy.8702 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Iozeph.5617" said: > You could keep juggernaut as is, with might gains included, and just apply it to all kits rather than only flamethrower. It still wouldn't be overpowered. Not with boon stripping/corruptions so common now. Worse, those mechanics are probably here to stay. With the ascendancy of crowd control and our inability to avoid those effects as easily as the recent past, a bit of semi-permanent stability wouldn't make us winners overnight. It might just allow us a hit or two in where we couldn't before. > > If being overpowered is still a worry then change Juggernaut to pulse stability and protection instead. Then have all protection applications mitigate against condition damage as well as physical. Again, with all the boon stripping and corruptions I don't see why this hasn't been done yet. There has to be a better counter to conditions than more vitality. And resistance didn't seem to offer quite the answer Anet hoped it would. At least not for everyone. Yes it would be op, no class should have that much access to such a boon, ops suggestion much better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior Xsr.1672 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Leave my stability Juggernaut alone! Everything else I like about Engi gets ruined in the patches. Why are you trying to hurt Engineer even more???? I really don't get it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Warrior Xsr.1672" said: > Leave my stability Juggernaut alone! Everything else I like about Engi gets ruined in the patches. Why are you trying to hurt Engineer even more???? I really don't get it! It might be your favorite novelty trait but it's not a serious trait for any official GW2 content. Like I said, you can't please everyone, but I think many would like to take Juggernaut seriously for once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardid.7203 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 I use Juggernaut in open world to pass through cc happy mobs all the time. I consider that official content. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethyl.7519 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > @"Warrior Xsr.1672" said: > > Leave my stability Juggernaut alone! Everything else I like about Engi gets ruined in the patches. Why are you trying to hurt Engineer even more???? I really don't get it! > > It might be your favorite novelty trait but it's not a serious trait for any official GW2 content. Like I said, you can't please everyone, but I think many would like to take Juggernaut seriously for once. You do realise that even chilling in open world is "official GW2 content™", right ? I agree with Warrior Xsr on that one, I like Juggernaut as it is. Perma stability and might are the most unique aspect of that trait, and losing it would be really disappointing. A 3s stab on swap just feels incredibly boring and average in comparison. It also works really well with Scrapper. It's one of the last thing that works really well with Scrapper actually. Flamethrower Scrapper is still tons of fun just because of that single trait. Yeah, Holosmith stab access got gutted down, but it's no reason to put it on a trait that works just fine right now for what it does, even if it's just "novelty" to you. So, leave juggernaut alone, and put more stab on holosmith traits if you want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardid.7203 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 I play Flamethrower Holo. I love CC, positioning and fighting multiple mobs in open world... Is that so bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iozeph.5617 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Coolguy.8702" said: > Yes it would be op, no class should have that much access to such a boon, ops suggestion much better You've said yes it would be overpowered. Care to elaborate how? One, even if juggernaut's changed to work with all kits, unless our kits get a serious rework they all rely on a gimmick where you hope the enemy will be comatose enough to walk into them. Most players don't. I won't even say, 'most good players' because this is guild wars two. Bomb kit kiting is obvious. Standing still with bombs is a recipe for being burnt to the ground. Same for Mortar kit and it suffers from the inaccurate nature of ground targeting as well as from projectile hate. Grenade kit suffers from the problems Mortar kit does, are shorter range, and are even less accurate due to the random spread of the grenade pattern. Flamethrower kit relies on them standing still in your front arc. How often does that happen? Elixir Gun kit, which suffers from projectile hate as well as being shorter range compared to rifle, inferior damage(especially if not running conditions build) Medkit. Whatever. Who knows? It could actually, possibly benefit from stability. Perhaps. But never mind kits. Heck I'll go one better(or worse) and say make Juggernaut work all the time regardless of kits or base weapons, and it still won't overpower us. That's how bad the rest of the profession is around it. Juggernaut alone isn't enough to save us. The stability pulsed by Juggernaut, after the change to stacks, is overcome easily enough by corruptions and boon stripping, not to mention being knocked back or stomped out of it. Unless something happens to give you the luxury of facing either the laziest or the dumbest opponents every single time it isn't going to over power anything. And if they are lazy enough to simply stand on top of you or in medium/short range whilst using any of the kits mentioned above -that's sort of on them isn't it? A single charge of stability of three seconds on weapon swap, the op's suggestion will be worse than what the rest of the profession currently has. A terrible trade off for the sake of bolstering one specline, Holosmith. Given latency issues for those without perfect connections, what more on a ten second internal cooldown, it's going to insure that this particular bit of stability is scarcely there when it's needed. Between the animation time of the swap, then the lag between whatever button you're hoping to press just after, that thee seconds won't do anything for you. Again- that's if you're not stripped or stomped out of it before you even execute the swap. The ten seconds means that after the swap you're naked, stability wise for another effective ten to twelve seconds. This on a profession with underwhelming burst capability by comparison to the other professions, even after the coming nerfs. This on a profession more reliant than ever on the one trick pony of rocket boots. Now, especially now that we're even more at the mercy of crowd control than ever, this means it's just going to be a matter of whether you take it in the face or take it in the back when trying to run away. Our stability has to be usable. Not only for the few exceptional players who prove the rule of a terrible profession, but by the average players who don't want to be relegated to the status of a tomato can/free bag for the entirety of their play experience. Engineers, regardless of spec, are in a sorry state, both for their inaccessibility, and for their inferior damage in just about every mode. Clinging desperately to holo, holding it up and saying, 'See this? If you only play this spec, go absolute glass, get lucky and the stars align, and a vestal virgin dances withershins under a summer solstice moon we have awesome potential!' doesn't cut it. Not for me. Our versatility used to be selling point but that argument just doesn't hold water anymore. The allegedly versatile skills we once shifted to have to stay effective compared to other professions to remain a viable part of our bag of tricks to make their use worth while. They haven't been kept up where as at the same time nearly every profession has been given tools to counter or flat out ignore that alleged versatility- and with less time required, less effort, and less risk of repeat stress injuries than our 'optimal' set-ups. Seconds count. Why should we be even more enslaved to fiddly cooldowns than we currently are? Engineers are just this bad. I love them but they're still the least played profession for good reason. If they're to have any hope of going forward then they need to quit being held back by proponents of the, 'buy a new computer, get a blazing fast connection, make the game your second job or be a trust fund baby dripping money out your buttocks, git gud, and play-only-this-build-which-happens-to-work-awesomely-for-me-but-possibly-not-for-you-cause-you're-bad,' school of mmo playing. Do you remember fun? This profession, regardless of spec, needs to be fun for everyone. Not sacrificed for the sake of being the privileged, online ego-stroke of a select few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ario.8964 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Aethyl.7519" said: > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > @"Warrior Xsr.1672" said: > > > Leave my stability Juggernaut alone! Everything else I like about Engi gets ruined in the patches. Why are you trying to hurt Engineer even more???? I really don't get it! > > > > It might be your favorite novelty trait but it's not a serious trait for any official GW2 content. Like I said, you can't please everyone, but I think many would like to take Juggernaut seriously for once. > > You do realise that even chilling in open world is "official GW2 content™", right ? > > I agree with Warrior Xsr on that one, I like Juggernaut as it is. Perma stability and might are the most unique aspect of that trait, and losing it would be really disappointing. A 3s stab on swap just feels incredibly boring and average in comparison. > > It also works really well with Scrapper. It's one of the last thing that works really well with Scrapper actually. Flamethrower Scrapper is still tons of fun just because of that single trait. > > Yeah, Holosmith stab access got gutted down, but it's no reason to put it on a trait that works just fine right now for what it does, even if it's just "novelty" to you. > > So, leave juggernaut alone, and put more stab on holosmith traits if you want to. Juggernaut is a novelty trait. It's used on 1 or 2 decent builds that are only usable in 1 game mode. Chaith's suggestion makes it synergize better with the class overall and allows it to be used in every game mode with good results. This wouldn't kill flamethrower on scrapper if you still wanted to use it, but now you have to do more than 1 and afk to get all your benefits. Flamethrower on scrapper is garbage in anything that isn't running around zerging in pve where nobody actually gives a crap about your dps so you can afford to spam 1 on flamethrower. Changing juggernaut opens up more playability, stops the trait from rewarding camping in a kit when the playstyle of engineer revolves around not camping in 1 kit, and stops anet from powercreeping the fuck out of holo by "put[ing] more stab on holosmith traits" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ario.8964 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Ardid.7203" said: > I play Flamethrower Holo. I love CC, positioning and fighting multiple mobs in open world... Is that so bad? Not a bad thing by any means. However, if it is a bigger benefit to the class and game for that style to receive a small change then it's a worthwhile sacrifice. I loved playing my cele rifle engi and to this day I have not had more fun playing any single build than cele rifle but the changes that nerfed it were better for the class/game at the time so it needed to happen. Nobody is saying you can't love a style, but sometimes you gotta make sacrifices for the greater good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Aethyl.7519" said: > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > @"Warrior Xsr.1672" said: > > > Leave my stability Juggernaut alone! Everything else I like about Engi gets ruined in the patches. Why are you trying to hurt Engineer even more???? I really don't get it! > > > > It might be your favorite novelty trait but it's not a serious trait for any official GW2 content. Like I said, you can't please everyone, but I think many would like to take Juggernaut seriously for once. > > You do realise that even chilling in open world is "official GW2 content™", right ? Traits you don't need to chill with, I used the word phase 'serious trait', referring to serious content - challenging PvE, PvP, WvW content. Traits should be in touch with these too, which Juggernaut is not. Also it's not a Holosmith gimme, Core and Scrapper would greatly benefit from a cornerstone stability trait available. Esp. Core engi which actually uses firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 I do think having a GM trait tied to a specific kit is ... underwhelming. Gaining Stab on Swap (kits only? does unequipping kits count?) seems like a reasonable kit buffing trait, though from a thematic POV, it's questionable I think. Not sure stability is the boon I would choose to get on swap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzet.3614 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 gutting juggernaut this way has to be the stupidest idea i ve seen suggested in my 4 years of playing . think the ones supporting it are just salty players that got owned by an engi in pvp no touch the hot shiny! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share Posted April 4, 2018 > @"Rezzet.3614" said: > gutting juggernaut > stupidest idea i ve seen suggested in my 4 years of playing . Everyone is entitled to an opinion but yours is very shortsighted. A large net buff in usefulness & scenarios to take Firearms and it's seen as 'gutting', :anguished: . I won't trash talk Juggernaut trait as is, some open world PvE people may find comfort in it. I only ask to consider why our only core-stability trait operates under an unrealistic requirement such as camping one kit as the dynamic Engineer profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 > @"Rezzet.3614" said: > gutting juggernaut this way has to be the stupidest idea i ve seen suggested in my 4 years of playing . > > > think the ones supporting it are just salty players that got owned by an engi in pvp > > no touch the hot shiny! Wha? I don't think I've ever seen a Juggernaut engi "own" anyone in pvp. In fact, if I see someone camping flamethrower, I relax because they're an easy kill. Engi as a class is very much designed around kit swapping, not kit camping. It'd be like an Ele build based on camping one attunement. It's a gimmick that isn't really playing the class as designed. I support this change 'cause it'd increase build diversity in that you wouldn't be locked to a single kit and wouldn't have to camp in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethyl.7519 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > @"Aethyl.7519" said: > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > > @"Warrior Xsr.1672" said: > > > > Leave my stability Juggernaut alone! Everything else I like about Engi gets ruined in the patches. Why are you trying to hurt Engineer even more???? I really don't get it! > > > > > > It might be your favorite novelty trait but it's not a serious trait for any official GW2 content. Like I said, you can't please everyone, but I think many would like to take Juggernaut seriously for once. > > > > You do realise that even chilling in open world is "official GW2 content™", right ? > > Traits you don't need to chill with, I used the word phase 'serious trait', referring to serious content - challenging PvE, PvP, WvW content. Traits should be in touch with these too, which Juggernaut is not. > > Also it's not a Holosmith gimme, Core and Scrapper would greatly benefit from a cornerstone stability trait available. Esp. Core engi which actually uses firearms. I can get that. My main issue with your change is that it would go from an unique trait, perma stability isn't something that many classes have access to, to another boring (imo) skill-based low duration boon gain on CD. I know that we can't please everyone, and I also know that with that change, I would never ever use that trait again, while I used it all the time since the launch of the game. I always found the idea of being an unmovable force quite amazing thematically and gameplay wise, and even if it wasn't meta and just a "novelty" by your standard, it just felt so right to me. It's one of the trait that basically make the class for me. One of those many unique tools we have access to and that I constantly used to get through a variety of content, dungeon, fractals, WvW roaming, open world, PvP, etc etc. While I get that a trait like yours may have its use in the current state of the classe, I would really prefer it to be on another trait that Juggernaut. But, I know that I won't change the mind of the ones who already want that change, and it's fine. Just wanted to put out my 2 cents here, as a player who love the uniqueness of that trait far more that whatever meta skillful trait it could become. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzet.3614 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 this change only seems to pop up in order to be used as a workaround fix for holo's stability nerf its the only way it would be beneficial if you can call it that Juggernaut FT is the best core engi has right now . stab on swap implies 1-2 stacks on a 10-20s cooldown its just not worthy of being a grandmaster much less a replacement for Juggernaut , core engi already had its dodge mines nerfed losing another grandmaster would suck . but lets assume we do get stab on kit swap how exactly does it promote build diversity ? the only use the trait would get is a quick double kit swap because our kits flat out succ the only kit that would benefit from stab would be tool kit its no diferent then swapping to FT proccing a stab pulse and then swapping out of FT , if anything this idea is more effective cuz FT constantly pulses stab . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzet.3614 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 why not instead make juggernaut but inverted ? gain a stability stack or two when we get a might stack or a might stack threshold /5 stacks or something on a cooldown of course this way ALL of engineer's builds actually benefit from it all of engnineer's builds produce might even if it aint 20 stacks . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ario.8964 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 > @"Rezzet.3614" said: > > why not instead make juggernaut but inverted ? > > gain a stability stack or two when we get a might stack or a might stack threshold /5 stacks or something on a cooldown of course > > this way ALL of engineer's builds actually benefit from it all of engnineer's builds produce might even if it aint 20 stacks . Making it boon reliant further forces alchemy on the engineer. If you wanted to keep the idea of perma stab then you could extend it to all the kits and just have it be a huge kit buff so then if people want more consistent stab they have to build into kits (keeps FT builds for those who like them but opens up further usage of the trait to the engineer). The only issue you'd see is then engi builds that ran with multiple kits would be able to have perma stab without losing out on utility. Example builds assuming Juggernaut was made to impact all kits instead of only FT: Core cele rifle- http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUh2tYJXwPLQ7FL3FFYDGhBQ4EGQbm4B9DdIA-jJxHABFVGAgHAg47PMwFAAA Paladin holo- http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUnUUBtbh1IDmID0ehl7CrvKuF/igNoIUAIcCFQ2MA-jJxHABiv/wAXAAAeAA0XGAA Cele scrapper (hammer and rifle can be swapped)-http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUnUUBtbh9ZBuoC0ehl7iKcCDoNDsBjwAge1j9ZH-jJhIABA8AA8/CAIUZgv3fAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now