Re-work Juggernaut into short Stability on swap

[Chaith.8256]

> @"Rezzet.3614" said:

> this offered changes bring more harm than good to engineer overall

>

> wich build exactly benefits from having 1 or multiple kits to swap constantly for stability ?

>

> because if we're honest even if the trait worked in a way that each kit had a stab pulse with each own icd it still would be detrimental

>

> yes engi would have more stability but their performance overall would plummet

>

> the only build i see posibly benefitting is bomb auto spammers

>

 

Weapon swap, think of on swap sigils. Procs on everything, even Elixir S is a "weapon swap" for the purpose of those effects. Your understanding is completely different.. In no way did I mention Engineering Kits

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"Iozeph.5617" said:

> You could keep juggernaut as is, with might gains included, and just apply it to all kits rather than only flamethrower. It still wouldn't be overpowered. Not with boon stripping/corruptions so common now. Worse, those mechanics are probably here to stay. With the ascendancy of crowd control and our inability to avoid those effects as easily as the recent past, a bit of semi-permanent stability wouldn't make us winners overnight. It might just allow us a hit or two in where we couldn't before.

>

 

This.

Its probably the most versatile and useful change. To keep it the flamethrower trait add something like a CD reduction or aditional might when using it.

But generally gaining stab and might when using a kit is the btter idea than OP suggested.

 

[Crinn.7864]

> @"zoopop.5630" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Iozeph.5617" said:

> > > > @"Coolguy.8702" said:

> > > > Yes it would be op, no class should have that much access to such a boon, ops suggestion much better

> > >

> > > You've said yes it would be overpowered.

> > >

> > > Care to elaborate how? One, even if juggernaut's changed to work with all kits

> >

> > Let me stop you right there.....

> >

> > In short there was a reason holo's stability spam got nerfed in the butt in pvp.

> > 1 your suggestion would be too strong as a passive and would create very strong passive carry in competitive modes. (Which is what anet is trying to reduce)

> > It wouldn't be op in pve cause no one cares

> > Having perma stab on all your kits in pvp would be out right toxic and in the right hands would make engi down right busted.

> >

> > Especially right now holos are VERRRRY stronk right now i suggest you stay with whats strong and keep killing all the mesmers for us who cant deal with them instead >.>

> > *cough* up to 100% damage reduction in combat *cough*

> > Go forth and slaughter all the mesmers for us!

>

> "especially right now holos are verrrry stronk right now" Let me stop you right there, HOLO are OK they aren't "stronk" right now. They Lose easily to Any mesmer Spec, Warriors, Scoruges, Power Reaper and Possibly Guardian depending what spec.

 

Holosmith has a winning matchup against Reaper.

 

> @"Rezzet.3614" said:

> this offered changes bring more harm than good to engineer overall

>

> wich build exactly benefits from having 1 or multiple kits to swap constantly for stability ?

 

A build would not need to have lots of kits to get value from the OP's suggestion, a build would simply need 1 kit (or proton forge) that it utilizes on a relatively frequent basis.

 

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> Title,

>

> Juggernaut: Gain stability (3s) when you swap weapons in combat. (10s ICD)

>

> So simple, so needed. I could think of many more flavorful ways to re-do it, but that wouldn't please everyone.

 

You're going to need a better written tooltip. Having a tooltip that includes "when you swap weapons" on a class that has no weapon swap is going to leave a lot of new engis really confused.

 

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"Rezzet.3614" said:

> > this offered changes bring more harm than good to engineer overall

> >

> > wich build exactly benefits from having 1 or multiple kits to swap constantly for stability ?

> >

> > because if we're honest even if the trait worked in a way that each kit had a stab pulse with each own icd it still would be detrimental

> >

> > yes engi would have more stability but their performance overall would plummet

> >

> > the only build i see posibly benefitting is bomb auto spammers

> >

>

> Weapon swap, think of on swap sigils. Procs on everything, even Elixir S is a "weapon swap" for the purpose of those effects. Your understanding is completely different.. In no way did I mention Engineering Kits

 

Elixer S probably isn't the best example. I'm not sure why I would want to grant myself 3 seconds of stability upon using a invulnerability skill that lasts for 3 seconds.

 

[Chaith.8256]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> Elixer S probably isn't the best example. I'm not sure why I would want to grant myself 3 seconds of stability upon using a invulnerability skill that lasts for 3 seconds.

 

Get some boon duration and use your heal after you get out.

 

Anyways, that's besides the point, I'm sure you would not want many on swap effects to proc when you go into Elixir S.

 

Suggested tooltip is consistent with all on swap sigils, engineers figure out they apply to kits too, the suggested tooltip would piggyback off of that learning.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Rezzet.3614" said:

> this offered changes bring more harm than good to engineer overall

>

> wich build exactly benefits from having 1 or multiple kits to swap constantly for stability ?

>

> because if we're honest even if the trait worked in a way that each kit had a stab pulse with each own icd it still would be detrimental

>

> yes engi would have more stability but their performance overall would plummet

>

> the only build i see posibly benefitting is bomb auto spammers

>

 

Engineers benefit immensity from swapping ... this suggestion is DIRECTLY inline with how Engi as a class was intended to be played by Anet. Engi performance would plummet because a single kit loses a permanent benefit to stability? Are you just saying things or are you serious right now?

[MrForz.1953]

> @"Rezzet.3614" said:

> wich build exactly benefits from having 1 or multiple kits to swap constantly for stability ?

 

About anything that has kits. 2 or 3 kits used to be the norm for a long time before elite specs whether it was to attack or defend, those who learned to have proper timing with streamlined kits would be glad to have its results further enhanced. I know I would.

[Rezzet.3614]

first things First , we need to clear up what the swap suggestion is

 

because if its any kit triggers a global stability cd every 10s it doesnt sound worth giving up juggernaut for

 

if it is 1 stab stack with icd per engi kit it sounds acceptable but i still cant grasp what build exactly would benefit from this change

 

power dps engi is basically FT or Static discharge or bombs of wich basically we'd be throwing FT under the bus to buff bombs

 

i think you guys are missing my point, i Fully agree that engineer desperately needs a proper stability source, but giving up the Juggernaut grandmaster for a mediocre stability aint the way

 

why not make the juggernaut stop giving might but pulse 1 3s stability and 3s protection every 5-10 seconds while wearing any kit ?

[Ardid.7203]

I only have 2 problems with what Chaith suggest.

1- No more perma-stab. I DO use FT perma stab. It is very unique and fun to camp FT (Under some circumstances), and then change into another thing while using the remaining stab.

2- Extra benefit to already superior Kits. FT is already subpar. Take this from FT and make it general: yes, it benefit more builds, but it also makes FT even less viable, more unwelcome everywhere.

 

In other words: this change is only good for any build that DOESN'T use FT already. Yes, it is good for the most. Yes, it is detrimental for FT users (unless they also at least other 2 kits).

[Chaith.8256]

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> I only have 2 problems with what Chaith suggest.

> 1- No more perma-stab. I DO use FT perma stab. It is very unique and fun to camp FT (Under some circumstances), and then change into another thing while using the remaining stab.

> 2- Extra benefit to already superior Kits. FT is already subpar. Take this from FT and make it general: yes, it benefit more builds, but it also makes FT even less viable, more unwelcome everywhere.

>

> In other words: this change is only good for any build that DOESN'T use FT already. Yes, it is good for the most. Yes, it is detrimental for FT users (unless they also at least other 2 kits).

 

Personally I've never used Flamethrower kit with camping/Juggernaut because its power damage is obsolete and the condition damage uses don't camp it.

 

I'm pretty sure damage kits (not eGun or Toolkit) objectively need buffs, this remains true even without factoring in Juggernaut

[coro.3176]

Also, on the off chance a perma-stab build does become competitive, that's the first thing everyone will complain about (and with good reason). A lot of classes rely on landing CC. It's not a problem now precisely because flamethrower is bad. If flamethrower were to be buffed however...

 

Getting rid of perma-stab leaves them free to buff or change FT without creating a noob-stomper build in pvp.

[coglin.1496]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> Also, on the off chance a perma-stab build does become competitive, that's the first thing everyone will complain about (and with good reason). A lot of classes rely on landing CC. It's not a problem now precisely because flamethrower is bad. If flamethrower were to be buffed however...

>

> Getting rid of perma-stab leaves them free to buff or change FT without creating a noob-stomper build in pvp.

 

We are one of those professions that relies on CC a fair amount, yet an over abundance of stability is granted to some other professions. I am not suggesting you are incorrect, as I agree with you. I am suggesting that you are right, and that is a problem.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> I only have 2 problems with what Chaith suggest.

> 1- No more perma-stab. I DO use FT perma stab. It is very unique and fun to camp FT (Under some circumstances), and then change into another thing while using the remaining stab.

> 2- Extra benefit to already superior Kits. FT is already subpar. Take this from FT and make it general: yes, it benefit more builds, but it also makes FT even less viable, more unwelcome everywhere.

>

> In other words: this change is only good for any build that DOESN'T use FT already. Yes, it is good for the most. Yes, it is detrimental for FT users (unless they also at least other 2 kits).

 

To be fair, most of our damage-oriented kits (FT included) need some boosting in the first place. Juggernaut just makes a bad kit seem slightly less bad.