draxynnic.3719 Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 > @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said: > Besides them, the Charr also speak for themselves when it comes to their capabilities, but I wouldn't look past humans either. The Watchknights they designed and revealed at the first Queen's Jubilee were quite a feet of engineering, and were sentient constructs made to follow human commands (they could be considered comparable to Asura golems from a technological standpoint, though also different in terms of their construction). Of course, they were corrupted by Scarlet shortly after and haven't seen use since (perhaps because of fear), but I think it's a good example of human ingenuity, especially when an evil scientist on Scarlet's level believes your work is good enough to steal and use for her own ends. One thing that does pull the Watchknights down as an accomplishment is that they were made by reverse-engineering steam creatures, which were revealed (some would say retconned) to have been made by Scarlet - which is how she was able to seize control of them. There was still enough of their original programming built in that Scarlet was able to use her command codes. That said, they HAVE been seen since - there are Watchknights among the Queen's forces in S3E4. Supposedly the security hole has been patched, but not everyone is convinced yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardid.7203 Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > @"Ardid.7203" said: > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > @"Fluffball.8307" said: > > > > Asura are extremely specialized in their knowledge, which gives them the "illusion" of being smart. They spend their entire lives researching a single topic. > > > > > > ... which, when you pool the Asura together as a race gives them a rather vast library of knowledge. > > > > If only they were more open with the data... I love Asura precisely because the beautiful contradictions they show up as a race and as individuals. They could dominate the entire world in a whim, but are too stingy with their knowledge to invest on it, even the inquest! > > Except that they are very open with the data...? You realize of course that they turn all their research into a kind of peer review to get recognized for it? Even the Inquest does this. The entirety of Asura society and civilization is built upon this vast resource of scientific breakthroughs that has been pooled together through many generations. > > The only time an Asura won't do that is before the thesis is finished so that nobody beats him or her to the punch to claim credit for it. IMO, an according to what happen in the books and many places in game, they share SOME of their knowledge. The thesis is only one of many instances where they choose to keep data for themselves. The final peer preview they do is only to share final results, usually only the effects of their inventions, not much of how they work: all the previous data is kept from eyes outside the crewe, and in some cases (like in the Inquest) even the members of the crewe doesn't get access to most of the info at hand. They value knowledge, a lot, but don't value communication that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 > @"Ardid.7203" said: > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > @"Ardid.7203" said: > > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > > @"Fluffball.8307" said: > > > > > Asura are extremely specialized in their knowledge, which gives them the "illusion" of being smart. They spend their entire lives researching a single topic. > > > > > > > > ... which, when you pool the Asura together as a race gives them a rather vast library of knowledge. > > > > > > If only they were more open with the data... I love Asura precisely because the beautiful contradictions they show up as a race and as individuals. They could dominate the entire world in a whim, but are too stingy with their knowledge to invest on it, even the inquest! > > > > Except that they are very open with the data...? You realize of course that they turn all their research into a kind of peer review to get recognized for it? Even the Inquest does this. The entirety of Asura society and civilization is built upon this vast resource of scientific breakthroughs that has been pooled together through many generations. > > > > The only time an Asura won't do that is before the thesis is finished so that nobody beats him or her to the punch to claim credit for it. > > IMO, an according to what happen in the books and many places in game, they share SOME of their knowledge. The thesis is only one of many instances where they choose to keep data for themselves. The final peer preview they do is only to share final results, usually only the effects of their inventions, not much of how they work: all the previous data is kept from eyes outside the crewe, and in some cases (like in the Inquest) even the members of the crewe doesn't get access to most of the info at hand. They value knowledge, a lot, but don't value communication that much. > Still doesn't change the core point I'm making: Asura civilization *is* made up out of the pooled breakthroughs of various individuals. They do share what they accomplish - even if only to serve as stroking their own ego with the adulations of their peers, rather than to contribute to their society. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenrai Senshi.2017 Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 > @"Ardid.7203" said: > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > @"Ardid.7203" said: > > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > > @"Fluffball.8307" said: > > > > > Asura are extremely specialized in their knowledge, which gives them the "illusion" of being smart. They spend their entire lives researching a single topic. > > > > > > > > ... which, when you pool the Asura together as a race gives them a rather vast library of knowledge. > > > > > > If only they were more open with the data... I love Asura precisely because the beautiful contradictions they show up as a race and as individuals. They could dominate the entire world in a whim, but are too stingy with their knowledge to invest on it, even the inquest! > > > > Except that they are very open with the data...? You realize of course that they turn all their research into a kind of peer review to get recognized for it? Even the Inquest does this. The entirety of Asura society and civilization is built upon this vast resource of scientific breakthroughs that has been pooled together through many generations. > > > > The only time an Asura won't do that is before the thesis is finished so that nobody beats him or her to the punch to claim credit for it. > > IMO, an according to what happen in the books and many places in game, they share SOME of their knowledge. The thesis is only one of many instances where they choose to keep data for themselves. The final peer preview they do is only to share final results, usually only the effects of their inventions, not much of how they work: all the previous data is kept from eyes outside the crewe, and in some cases (like in the Inquest) even the members of the crewe doesn't get access to most of the info at hand. They value knowledge, a lot, but don't value communication that much. > We see similar trends in the real world though. You have companies that patent formulas, recipes or designs to keep others from using them, and often they don't disclose information on how a product/consumable is created. This is a typical practice in a competitive society. Even your comment on specialization can be applied to the real world. Most people don't have the time or inclination to learn every facet of every subject, and so they specialize in different subjects, fields or careers, not because they are not smart enough to learn them all, but because it is not practically realistic for most to do so given other factors at work (such as limited time, manpower or resources). Also remember that there's a difference between being intelligent and being knowledgeable. And even a relatively intelligent species is going to have individuals that fall either above or below standard, or those who simply don't apply their intelligence, either because of a lack of enthusiasm, a lack of interest or just general laziness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardid.7203 Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 Well, in fact I think a more thorough sharing of scientific data (not just results, but formulas, experiments, processes, etc), not limited by mercantile bias, would indeed be an enormous advancement for our society (Open Source model HAS already changed our society). Asuras are a sort of metaphor for this: so much data, so unwilling to share it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 > @"Ardid.7203" said: >Asuras are a sort of metaphor for this: so much data, so unwilling to share it. Again, they are clearly not unwilling. Even the Inquest are more than happy to reveal their inventions to the public to get credit for them. Heck, they're even willing to steal other people's inventions just for the glory as per the Snaff Savant contest, LOL. Take the portal system, for example. Being a portal tech is clearly a profession an Asura can aspire to be, so not only did it's inventor share the invention itself but the mechanations as to how they work is not hoarded away but rather shared with the rest of Asura society. The idea that Asura are unwilling to share their stuff is blatantly false. Their entire society/civilization is a collection of their pooled efforts. Were it not for this, there'd be no Asura. Asura don't mind sharing, they just want the full and proper credit for their work (so they are secretive in the sense that they are vary of "industrial espionage" - and given the tendency to steal by the Inquest, it seems warranted, heh). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 It's been explicitly stated by ArenaNet that the asura have lost what would otherwise be major advancements due to the asura being paranoid and not sharing their stuff. Something to remember here is that the asura are not monolithic. Some are happy to share as long as they get due credit. Some will sell their inventions, but jealously guard how they work and how to reproduce them until they die, and perhaps even then only allowing it to be passed on to select apprentices. And some take active steps to ensure that their work cannot be "stolen" even after they're dead and gone - Blimm and Oola both fit into this category. And this is not necessarily even consistent when talking about a single, given asura: there might be some discoveries that a given asura is eager to spread far and wide and others that they want to keep for themselves even long after they're dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > It's been explicitly stated by ArenaNet that the asura have lost what would otherwise be major advancements due to the asura being paranoid and not sharing their stuff. Of course. The Asura are still individuals each with their own proclivities. Still doesn't change the fact that the current day Asura civilization is still based on a collaborative effort of pooled knowledge and inventions, and with the way it is currently structured highly encourages the sharing of discoveries (such as the Snaff Savant event). If anything, if their history is indeed filled with "lost" knowledge because of paranoia and greedy, encouraging the opposite for the sake of having a thriving civilization makes a lot of sense. You wouldn't want to encourage a dark age like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Yeah, I think a lot of asura society is actually based on the idea of counteracting the natural asura tendency towards hiding their discoveries out of paranoia. That was the whole initial reasoning behind the founding of the Inquest, after all, and things like the Snaff Prize are likely an effort to encourage asura to share through less autocratic means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardid.7203 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 You are entitled to your opinion, Oglaf. I still think they mostly tend to show the miracle while avoiding talking about the saint. As Draxynnic said, when they DO share their data (not the inventions: the data to make and control them), they are acting in favor of their society while against a basic tendency of not sharing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 > @"Ardid.7203" said: > You are entitled to your opinion, Oglaf. I still think they mostly tend to show the miracle while avoiding talking about the saint. As Draxynnic said, when they DO share their data (not the inventions: the data to make and control them), they are acting in favor of their society while against a basic tendency of not sharing it. Again, that's incorrect. There are plenty of "public service" inventions and contraptions that all Asura use daily which are understood by most of them - portals being the premier example here. As I've been saying over and over: no sharing, no collective Asura civilization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardid.7203 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 There are plenty of examples of the opposite too. Most of the truly important inventions in the story line were never intended to be shared. But again, its your opinion against mine. A huge list of examples will NOT solve the discussion. We don't have the "word of god" or a proper explanation anywhere, AFAIK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reincarnatie.7254 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 According to Cepha's research into the physiognomy of the five major races as part of the Phrenologist Krewe as part of the 'A Bold New Theory' symposium near the Aquatarium, asura are the most intelligent race--followed by sylvari, charr, human, and then norn.It is important to note, however, that "Cepha's Constant" as she calls it, is a reference to the theory of 'Encephalisation' and roughly uses the same equation as the 'Encephalisation quotient'. However, it is able to only give a rough estimate of intelligence and is less accurate when measuring non-mammalian species.The answer is obviously asura, with Snaff's invention of the Cephalolithopathic golem and Vekk's teleportation devices, Zojja's MEGA-LIT dragonbusting laser-cannon...But sylvari's clever creativity (and their collective pool of knowledge in the Dream of Dreams), charr industrial ingenuity, human architecture and artifacts, and norn artistic and spiritual/mystic knowledge are all different kinds of intelligences and are all just as valid aspects of intelligence as a whole.It doesn't matter if the asura share knowledge with one another or not--the question was of the most intelligent race/species, not the most intelligent racial-society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 > @"Reincarnatie.7254" said: > According to Cepha's research into the physiognomy of the five major races as part of the Phrenologist Krewe as part of the 'A Bold New Theory' symposium near the Aquatarium, asura are the most intelligent race--followed by sylvari, charr, human, and then norn. > > It is important to note, however, that "Cepha's Constant" as she calls it, is a reference to the theory of 'Encephalisation' and roughly uses the same equation as the 'Encephalisation quotient'. However, it is able to only give a rough estimate of intelligence and is less accurate when measuring non-mammalian species. > > The answer is obviously asura, with Snaff's invention of the Cephalolithopathic golem and Vekk's teleportation devices, Zojja's MEGA-LIT dragonbusting laser-cannon... > But sylvari's clever creativity (and their collective pool of knowledge in the Dream of Dreams), charr industrial ingenuity, human architecture and artifacts, and norn artistic and spiritual/mystic knowledge are all different kinds of intelligences and are all just as valid aspects of intelligence as a whole. > > It doesn't matter if the asura share knowledge with one another or not--the question was of the most intelligent race/species, not the most intelligent racial-society. I've never considered Cepha's "research" to be legitimate. It feels too much like the asura equivalent of how craniometry and similar pseudosciences was used in the real world to justify the idea that Caucasians were inherently superior to other ethnic groups. And, similar to the real world, "most advanced" does not necessarily translate into "most intelligent". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > @"Reincarnatie.7254" said: > > According to Cepha's research into the physiognomy of the five major races as part of the Phrenologist Krewe as part of the 'A Bold New Theory' symposium near the Aquatarium, asura are the most intelligent race--followed by sylvari, charr, human, and then norn. > > > > It is important to note, however, that "Cepha's Constant" as she calls it, is a reference to the theory of 'Encephalisation' and roughly uses the same equation as the 'Encephalisation quotient'. However, it is able to only give a rough estimate of intelligence and is less accurate when measuring non-mammalian species. > > > > The answer is obviously asura, with Snaff's invention of the Cephalolithopathic golem and Vekk's teleportation devices, Zojja's MEGA-LIT dragonbusting laser-cannon... > > But sylvari's clever creativity (and their collective pool of knowledge in the Dream of Dreams), charr industrial ingenuity, human architecture and artifacts, and norn artistic and spiritual/mystic knowledge are all different kinds of intelligences and are all just as valid aspects of intelligence as a whole. > > > > It doesn't matter if the asura share knowledge with one another or not--the question was of the most intelligent race/species, not the most intelligent racial-society. > > I've never considered Cepha's "research" to be legitimate. It feels too much like the asura equivalent of how craniometry and similar pseudosciences was used in the real world to justify the idea that Caucasians were inherently superior to other ethnic groups. > > And, similar to the real world, "most advanced" does not necessarily translate into "most intelligent". The fact that she puts Charr so far down on the list is an obviously sign of bias as they’re clearly as smart as Asura based on their scientific achievements. Most of them are just very rough-looking because Charr are more about functionality rather than aesthetics - and most of their achievements are in weaponry and warfare. Classic “they _look_ like brutal and dumb savages so they must _be_ brutal and dumb savages!” Asura bigotry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eekasqueak.7850 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > @"Reincarnatie.7254" said: > > > According to Cepha's research into the physiognomy of the five major races as part of the Phrenologist Krewe as part of the 'A Bold New Theory' symposium near the Aquatarium, asura are the most intelligent race--followed by sylvari, charr, human, and then norn. > > > > > > It is important to note, however, that "Cepha's Constant" as she calls it, is a reference to the theory of 'Encephalisation' and roughly uses the same equation as the 'Encephalisation quotient'. However, it is able to only give a rough estimate of intelligence and is less accurate when measuring non-mammalian species. > > > > > > The answer is obviously asura, with Snaff's invention of the Cephalolithopathic golem and Vekk's teleportation devices, Zojja's MEGA-LIT dragonbusting laser-cannon... > > > But sylvari's clever creativity (and their collective pool of knowledge in the Dream of Dreams), charr industrial ingenuity, human architecture and artifacts, and norn artistic and spiritual/mystic knowledge are all different kinds of intelligences and are all just as valid aspects of intelligence as a whole. > > > > > > It doesn't matter if the asura share knowledge with one another or not--the question was of the most intelligent race/species, not the most intelligent racial-society. > > > > I've never considered Cepha's "research" to be legitimate. It feels too much like the asura equivalent of how craniometry and similar pseudosciences was used in the real world to justify the idea that Caucasians were inherently superior to other ethnic groups. > > > > And, similar to the real world, "most advanced" does not necessarily translate into "most intelligent". > > The fact that she puts Charr so far down on the list is an obviously sign of bias as they’re clearly as smart as Asura based on their scientific achievements. Most of them are just very rough-looking because Charr are more about functionality rather than aesthetics - and most of their achievements are in weaponry and warfare. > > Classic “they _look_ like brutal and dumb savages so they must _be_ brutal and dumb savages!” Asura bigotry. > Don't Asura and Charr get along pretty well though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugo.4705 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 All races in gw2 are intelligent in their domains. But if you select a branch like science/technollogies, it's asura. Charr for mecanics, strategy and siege weapons. Sylvaris for understanding of faunas and flora. But don't know for norns and humans, can't find a great quality? Tactics or faith into their spirits/gods ? But Note that pact airships are the result of a collab between asuras, charrs and humans. The Mothership Glory of Tyria is beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"hugo.4705" said: > All races in gw2 are intelligent in their domains. But if you select a branch like science/technollogies, it's asura. Charr for mecanics, strategy and siege weapons. Sylvaris for understanding of faunas and flora. But don't know for norns and humans, can't find a great quality? Tactics or faith into their spirits/gods ? > But Note that pact airships are the result of a collab between asuras, charrs and humans. The Mothership Glory of Tyria is beautiful. That’s an over-simplified, and incorrect, view of things: that is not about intelligence but racial proclivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugo.4705 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 everyone with his point of view, that's mine. it's a discrimination to put a race before others, I've been playing this game for 5 years and I can tell they are all intelligent. Comparing to your posts we almost say the same things. I just rely Proclivity and Intelligence, It's better to develop your intellect in a domain where you are good at. Like in our actual society, you like science, continue your studies in science and so on. And so if two races collab one of the participants can get a better intellect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Ansari.1604 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said: > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > > @"Reincarnatie.7254" said: > > > > According to Cepha's research into the physiognomy of the five major races as part of the Phrenologist Krewe as part of the 'A Bold New Theory' symposium near the Aquatarium, asura are the most intelligent race--followed by sylvari, charr, human, and then norn. > > > > > > > > It is important to note, however, that "Cepha's Constant" as she calls it, is a reference to the theory of 'Encephalisation' and roughly uses the same equation as the 'Encephalisation quotient'. However, it is able to only give a rough estimate of intelligence and is less accurate when measuring non-mammalian species. > > > > > > > > The answer is obviously asura, with Snaff's invention of the Cephalolithopathic golem and Vekk's teleportation devices, Zojja's MEGA-LIT dragonbusting laser-cannon... > > > > But sylvari's clever creativity (and their collective pool of knowledge in the Dream of Dreams), charr industrial ingenuity, human architecture and artifacts, and norn artistic and spiritual/mystic knowledge are all different kinds of intelligences and are all just as valid aspects of intelligence as a whole. > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter if the asura share knowledge with one another or not--the question was of the most intelligent race/species, not the most intelligent racial-society. > > > > > > I've never considered Cepha's "research" to be legitimate. It feels too much like the asura equivalent of how craniometry and similar pseudosciences was used in the real world to justify the idea that Caucasians were inherently superior to other ethnic groups. > > > > > > And, similar to the real world, "most advanced" does not necessarily translate into "most intelligent". > > > > The fact that she puts Charr so far down on the list is an obviously sign of bias as they’re clearly as smart as Asura based on their scientific achievements. Most of them are just very rough-looking because Charr are more about functionality rather than aesthetics - and most of their achievements are in weaponry and warfare. > > > > Classic “they _look_ like brutal and dumb savages so they must _be_ brutal and dumb savages!” Asura bigotry. > > > > Don't Asura and Charr get along pretty well though? Some individuals, but on the whole, not really. The asura building their society on magic [makes the charr's skin crawl](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eidola_Truesight), and the [average asura](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Peacemaker_Ernn) in Rata Sum tends to treat anything that's not asura as [just a hair smarter than an animal](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zunn). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcShriek.5829 Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 I think Sylvari are smarter than Asura. Look at Scarlet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > I think Sylvari are smarter than Asura. Look at Scarlet. Scarlet was an oddity, an exception. In no way is it reasonable to use her as the yardstick of average Sylvari intelligence. Plus, there is the whole schtick about her getting an Lovecraftian look into the workings of magic via that Asuran machine that also drove her insane - that made her a rather unique case not just among Sylvari, but all Tyrians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcShriek.5829 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 But still in 25 years the Sylvari have accomplished quite a bit. They probably out shine any 25 year period in Asura history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > But still in 25 years the Sylvari have accomplished quite a bit. They probably out shine any 25 year period in Asura history Most of which isn’t really down to intelligence. Like their buildings aren’t the result of some brilliant architects as they were simply grown. I think that the Sylvari are were they are today mostly because of the Pale Tree’s guidance - they’d probably not have survived without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcShriek.5829 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > > But still in 25 years the Sylvari have accomplished quite a bit. They probably out shine any 25 year period in Asura history > > Most of which isn’t really down to intelligence. Like their buildings aren’t the result of some brilliant architects as they were simply grown. > > I think that the Sylvari are were they are today mostly because of the Pale Tree’s guidance - they’d probably not have survived without it. > Because making buildings out of trees requires no skill or intelligence. We all know trees just always happen to grow the way we want them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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