Levetty.1279 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Levetty.1279" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Levetty.1279" said: > > > > kitten it you guys win. Who needs a fun and interesting mechanic lets remove Chronophantasma. > > > > > > > > In fact probably better to just remove Phantasms, make the Mesmer preform the attack. > > > > > > > > And should clones really be doing damage? Should Mesmers be able to get their clones to preform an attack? Lets remove Infinite Horizons. > > > > > > > > Clones are still pretty distracting though, maybe just have them as a UI resource? Adrenaline is pretty good lets give Mesmer that. Nerf shatters obviously because you can't kill clones now. > > > > > > > > Mind Spike already removes a boon, should it really do more damage if you hit a target that doesn't have one? Should it really do damage if its already removing a boon? Lets just remove that attack too tricky to figure it out. You still have a 2 skill auto chain its no problem. > > > > > > > > Mirage can evade while using Axes of Symmetry so we will remove evade from that. > > > > > > > > Traits that effect skills might cause too much synergy we should replace all traits with a bunch of passive stats boosts ones. Necros condi chains and Guardian symbols are fine shut up. I don't even know how something like Mirage Mantle + Renewing Oasis + Illusionary Membrane got in the game, who thought that was a good idea. > > > > > > > > Greatswords are melee weapons why does its attacks have 1200 range? > > > > > > > > Does Sword really need 3 skills? That immobilize on skill 3 synergises too well with skill 2. > > > > > > > > All these condis are a bit hard to remember, don't you think we should cut them down to maybe 2? 2 seems like a number we can remember. Should probably remove some boons as well so that UI is easier to read. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I get that it's a lot of fun, but sometimes things that are fun are also extremely unhealthy for the game. There's a reason Reapers with infinite Rise! minions got nipped in the bud quickly. > > > > > >  > > > > > > This is not healthy for the game. Heck, at this point I have to imagine that it's extremely unhealthy for the game's servers to have this much player summoned AI running around. > > > > I already told you you are right. I presume you agree with my lists of changes to get Mesmer balanced in PvP. PvP is important, you do want PvP to be balanced right. > > Even as a mesmer having to deal with the visual clutter of fighting another mesmer is a mirror match is not particularly fun or interesting. > >  > > This is not fun. It makes the game a complete mess, even if you win. So you agree with my proposed changes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Levetty.1279" said: > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > @"Levetty.1279" said: > > > kitten it you guys win. Who needs a fun and interesting mechanic lets remove Chronophantasma. > > > > > > In fact probably better to just remove Phantasms, make the Mesmer preform the attack. > > > > > > And should clones really be doing damage? Should Mesmers be able to get their clones to preform an attack? Lets remove Infinite Horizons. > > > > > > Clones are still pretty distracting though, maybe just have them as a UI resource? Adrenaline is pretty good lets give Mesmer that. Nerf shatters obviously because you can't kill clones now. > > > > > > Mind Spike already removes a boon, should it really do more damage if you hit a target that doesn't have one? Should it really do damage if its already removing a boon? Lets just remove that attack too tricky to figure it out. You still have a 2 skill auto chain its no problem. > > > > > > Mirage can evade while using Axes of Symmetry so we will remove evade from that. > > > > > > Traits that effect skills might cause too much synergy we should replace all traits with a bunch of passive stats boosts ones. Necros condi chains and Guardian symbols are fine shut up. I don't even know how something like Mirage Mantle + Renewing Oasis + Illusionary Membrane got in the game, who thought that was a good idea. > > > > > > Greatswords are melee weapons why does its attacks have 1200 range? > > > > > > Does Sword really need 3 skills? That immobilize on skill 3 synergises too well with skill 2. > > > > > > All these condis are a bit hard to remember, don't you think we should cut them down to maybe 2? 2 seems like a number we can remember. Should probably remove some boons as well so that UI is easier to read. > > > > > > > > > > That's like the complete antithesis to the hate filled emotional ranting on the pvp forums - neither helps the state of the game. > > > > As surprising as it might seem, if you ignore the extraneous salt and misguided nerf calls for every class over the years, it is possible to maintain pvp combat in a state where it continues to be fun - because it has been fun, extremely fun, on many occasions in the past and is still fun (in some ways even more so) in many ways now. > > > > I know thats why I have come up with a list of changes to make Mesmer balanced. I presume you also agree with them because you want Mesmer balanced right? It is a pretty sound list and I doubt people can find a flaw with the reasoning. That list is purely facetious/out of spite and not worth the effort to discuss. Regardless if you are serious about those changes then make a separate thread for them so this can be focused on the phantasm issue. Can I please ask to draw a line under this so we can get on with proper discussion regarding the chrono phantasm spam currently plaguing pvp and not derail eldenbri's thread any further. Edit - like I said, Anet **will** nerf this just like they did chronobunker, it's just a matter of time. I'd rather have a say in it than sit on my hands and wait for the inevitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Levetty.1279" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Levetty.1279" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Levetty.1279" said: > > > > > kitten it you guys win. Who needs a fun and interesting mechanic lets remove Chronophantasma. > > > > > > > > > > In fact probably better to just remove Phantasms, make the Mesmer preform the attack. > > > > > > > > > > And should clones really be doing damage? Should Mesmers be able to get their clones to preform an attack? Lets remove Infinite Horizons. > > > > > > > > > > Clones are still pretty distracting though, maybe just have them as a UI resource? Adrenaline is pretty good lets give Mesmer that. Nerf shatters obviously because you can't kill clones now. > > > > > > > > > > Mind Spike already removes a boon, should it really do more damage if you hit a target that doesn't have one? Should it really do damage if its already removing a boon? Lets just remove that attack too tricky to figure it out. You still have a 2 skill auto chain its no problem. > > > > > > > > > > Mirage can evade while using Axes of Symmetry so we will remove evade from that. > > > > > > > > > > Traits that effect skills might cause too much synergy we should replace all traits with a bunch of passive stats boosts ones. Necros condi chains and Guardian symbols are fine shut up. I don't even know how something like Mirage Mantle + Renewing Oasis + Illusionary Membrane got in the game, who thought that was a good idea. > > > > > > > > > > Greatswords are melee weapons why does its attacks have 1200 range? > > > > > > > > > > Does Sword really need 3 skills? That immobilize on skill 3 synergises too well with skill 2. > > > > > > > > > > All these condis are a bit hard to remember, don't you think we should cut them down to maybe 2? 2 seems like a number we can remember. Should probably remove some boons as well so that UI is easier to read. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I get that it's a lot of fun, but sometimes things that are fun are also extremely unhealthy for the game. There's a reason Reapers with infinite Rise! minions got nipped in the bud quickly. > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > This is not healthy for the game. Heck, at this point I have to imagine that it's extremely unhealthy for the game's servers to have this much player summoned AI running around. > > > > > > I already told you you are right. I presume you agree with my lists of changes to get Mesmer balanced in PvP. PvP is important, you do want PvP to be balanced right. > > > > Even as a mesmer having to deal with the visual clutter of fighting another mesmer is a mirror match is not particularly fun or interesting. > > > >  > > > > This is not fun. It makes the game a complete mess, even if you win. > > So you agree with my proposed changes? I really don't get what you're trying to accomplish by just throwing a bunch of hyperbolic joke changes at me when I've been pretty calm about explaining why I think one particular aspect of the mesmer rework was poorly thought out and is extremely problematic and unhealthy for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levetty.1279 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 Infinite Horizons is a 4x boost on ambushes. That is twice the amount of Chronophantasma. How can you not see that is unhealthy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Levetty.1279" said: > Infinite Horizons is a 4x boost on ambushes. That is twice the amount of Chronophantasma. How can you not see that is unhealthy? Nothing a three clone Infinite Horizons, none of the potential combos that could perform, is able to do comes anywhere close to any of the 4 Phantasm Chronophantasma combos are capable of, let alone the 6 phantasm combos with Signet of the Ether. Elusive Mind however is a Mirage trait that is kind of insane and worth talking about. There is a reason Mirages run Elusive Mind in PvP and not Infinite Horizon. Again, you're responding to serious arguments with hyperbolic joke posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levetty.1279 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Levetty.1279" said: > > Infinite Horizons is a 4x boost on ambushes. That is twice the amount of Chronophantasma. How can you not see that is unhealthy? > > Nothing a three clone Infinite Horizons, none of the potential combos that could perform, is able to do comes anywhere close to any of the 4 Phantasm Chronophantasma combos are capable of, let alone the 6 phantasm combos with Signet of the Ether. GS 25 vuln and Might Swords 4 interrupts in a row Axes condi bomb Staff aoe condi and Boons Slap Sharper Images on top of it. You are not using Infinite Horizons right, it is the most broken trait in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Levetty.1279" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Levetty.1279" said: > > > Infinite Horizons is a 4x boost on ambushes. That is twice the amount of Chronophantasma. How can you not see that is unhealthy? > > > > Nothing a three clone Infinite Horizons, none of the potential combos that could perform, is able to do comes anywhere close to any of the 4 Phantasm Chronophantasma combos are capable of, let alone the 6 phantasm combos with Signet of the Ether. > > GS 25 vuln and Might > Swords 4 interrupts in a row > Axes condi bomb > Staff aoe condi and Boons > Slap Sharper Images on top of it. > > You are not using Infinite Horizons right, it is the most broken trait in the game. Four Phantasmal Disencanters is potentially 40k damage. Four Phantasmal Defenders is potentially 80k damage. None of those ambush combos are getting anywhere close to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 So...Why not just revert Chrono phantasma to the original version in Spvp, where it requires you to shatter to get the phantasms back. This way if you kill the clones. You don't get the resummoned phantasm. Like it used to be. Also. I explained this in another thread but. half of the illusions in those images are clones. Nothing you do to phantasms is going to stop you from being to overwhelmed or confused by clones shattering ( and I still want to know how you get visually confused from clones in the shatter animation, that's literally a sign that says " hey dummy I'm a clone and I don't exist in 2 seconds cause I was shattered) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Solori.6025" said: > So...Why not just revert Chrono phantasma to the original version in Spvp, where it requires you to shatter to get the phantasms back. > This way if you kill the clones. You don't get the resummoned phantasm. > > Like it used to be. > > Also. > I explained this in another thread but. > > half of the illusions in those images are clones. > Nothing you do to phantasms is going to stop you from being to overwhelmed or confused by clones shattering ( and I still want to know how you get visually confused from clones in the shatter animation, that's literally a sign that says " hey dummy I'm a clone and I don't exist in 2 seconds cause I was shattered) Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that Chronophantasma should be reworked so that when you use a shatter skill, the clones shattered become their phantasm counterparts again and use their attack? Because that would be leagues more powerful than it already currently is. Also in three clones that were shattered. In the image with Undead roach in particular all of those clones were Phantasms that just performed their attacks moments before and were reverting to clones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > So...Why not just revert Chrono phantasma to the original version in Spvp, where it requires you to shatter to get the phantasms back. > > This way if you kill the clones. You don't get the resummoned phantasm. > > > > Like it used to be. > > > > Also. > > I explained this in another thread but. > > > > half of the illusions in those images are clones. > > Nothing you do to phantasms is going to stop you from being to overwhelmed or confused by clones shattering ( and I still want to know how you get visually confused from clones in the shatter animation, that's literally a sign that says " hey dummy I'm a clone and I don't exist in 2 seconds cause I was shattered) > > Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that Chronophantasma should be reworked so that when you use a shatter skill, the clones shattered become their phantasm counterparts again and use their attack? Because that would be leagues more powerful than it already currently is. That's how it was before, and required the clones to successfully shatter. Wasn't "leagues" more powerful for almost 3 years. Why would that suddenly change if the original iteration of chronophantasma was restored? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > So...Why not just revert Chrono phantasma to the original version in Spvp, where it requires you to shatter to get the phantasms back. > > > This way if you kill the clones. You don't get the resummoned phantasm. > > > > > > Like it used to be. > > > > > > Also. > > > I explained this in another thread but. > > > > > > half of the illusions in those images are clones. > > > Nothing you do to phantasms is going to stop you from being to overwhelmed or confused by clones shattering ( and I still want to know how you get visually confused from clones in the shatter animation, that's literally a sign that says " hey dummy I'm a clone and I don't exist in 2 seconds cause I was shattered) > > > > Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that Chronophantasma should be reworked so that when you use a shatter skill, the clones shattered become their phantasm counterparts again and use their attack? Because that would be leagues more powerful than it already currently is. > > That's how it was before, and required the clones to successfully shatter. > Wasn't "leagues" more powerful for almost 3 years. > Why would that suddenly change if the original iteration of chronophantasma was restored? Because the power levels of phantasms changed radically with the rework. Aside from the focus phantasm (Which really got shafted with the rework) all of them are leagues more powerful across the board. Some of them have become so much more powerful as to be incomparable to their original counterparts like Disenchanter and Defender. Phantasm before had moderately powerful attacks, but their values was that they persisted until they were manually shattered and would just keep racking up more and more damage. Because they only attack once once now, all that damage they would have racked up was heavily reweighted into their initial attack. Chronophantasma wasn't overpowered before because Phantasms when set up did a moderate amount of chip damage and if resummoned just continued to do a moderate amount of chip damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > So...Why not just revert Chrono phantasma to the original version in Spvp, where it requires you to shatter to get the phantasms back. > > > > This way if you kill the clones. You don't get the resummoned phantasm. > > > > > > > > Like it used to be. > > > > > > > > Also. > > > > I explained this in another thread but. > > > > > > > > half of the illusions in those images are clones. > > > > Nothing you do to phantasms is going to stop you from being to overwhelmed or confused by clones shattering ( and I still want to know how you get visually confused from clones in the shatter animation, that's literally a sign that says " hey dummy I'm a clone and I don't exist in 2 seconds cause I was shattered) > > > > > > Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that Chronophantasma should be reworked so that when you use a shatter skill, the clones shattered become their phantasm counterparts again and use their attack? Because that would be leagues more powerful than it already currently is. > > > > That's how it was before, and required the clones to successfully shatter. > > Wasn't "leagues" more powerful for almost 3 years. > > Why would that suddenly change if the original iteration of chronophantasma was restored? > > Because the power levels of phantasms changed radically with the rework. Aside from the focus phantasm (Which really got shafted with the rework) all of them are leagues more powerful across the board. Some of them have become so much more powerful as to be incomparable to their original counterparts like Disenchanter and Defender. Phantasm before had moderately powerful attacks, but their values was that they persisted until they were manually shattered and would just keep racking up more and more damage. Because they only attack once once now, all that damage they would have racked up was heavily reweighted into their initial attack. > > Chronophantasma wasn't overpowered before because Phantasms when set up did a moderate amount of chip damage and if resummoned just continued to do a moderate amount of chip damage. But the current trait is strong because it doesn't require you to do anything to get the new phantasms, since phantasms no longer count towards the clone limit and are resummoned after doing a near instant attack. I think this change would be much more beneficial in reducing the amount of visual clutter and taking out the passive nature of the AI summon by forcing you to keep track of where your clones end up, and also your cooldowns. Things like disenchanter and defender are going to be summoned twice regardless of with the current iteration of the trait. But if for example they became clones and were cleaved down. They would cease to exist. No more double phantasm . This is what I think the trait needs, counterplay. Also, just to be sure, Like the original iteration of the trait. When a phantasm was resummoned the first time. That was it. You couldn't just continue to shatter and get back the same phantasm. That would be broken, and never interacted that way. Another example. Currently- You can summon two clones with mirror images- and summon staff clones and a disenchanter. With chrono phantasma, currently, I could shatter those clones, and the phantasms will be re-summoned automatically without me having to do anything. With what I am proposing. The phantasms instead of being re-summoned as phantasms automatically, would instead become clones, and have to successfully shatter in order to become phantasms again, and this would only re-summon them once. Edit: Also, if you are concerned with the damage of phantasms- Chronophantasma is not your issue. Its the phantasms themselves, that would need to be addressed and is something they could split in PvE vs PvP without having to completely rework the trait. And would honestly be a lot easier to do that vs your suggestions. Numerically changing the outgoing phantasm damage by 15-20% would be something much more likely for Anet to do. My suggestion however would take care of the clutter issue, since people cant seem to tell the difference between a phantasm, a clone, and a shattered clone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > So...Why not just revert Chrono phantasma to the original version in Spvp, where it requires you to shatter to get the phantasms back. > > > > > This way if you kill the clones. You don't get the resummoned phantasm. > > > > > > > > > > Like it used to be. > > > > > > > > > > Also. > > > > > I explained this in another thread but. > > > > > > > > > > half of the illusions in those images are clones. > > > > > Nothing you do to phantasms is going to stop you from being to overwhelmed or confused by clones shattering ( and I still want to know how you get visually confused from clones in the shatter animation, that's literally a sign that says " hey dummy I'm a clone and I don't exist in 2 seconds cause I was shattered) > > > > > > > > Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that Chronophantasma should be reworked so that when you use a shatter skill, the clones shattered become their phantasm counterparts again and use their attack? Because that would be leagues more powerful than it already currently is. > > > > > > That's how it was before, and required the clones to successfully shatter. > > > Wasn't "leagues" more powerful for almost 3 years. > > > Why would that suddenly change if the original iteration of chronophantasma was restored? > > > > Because the power levels of phantasms changed radically with the rework. Aside from the focus phantasm (Which really got shafted with the rework) all of them are leagues more powerful across the board. Some of them have become so much more powerful as to be incomparable to their original counterparts like Disenchanter and Defender. Phantasm before had moderately powerful attacks, but their values was that they persisted until they were manually shattered and would just keep racking up more and more damage. Because they only attack once once now, all that damage they would have racked up was heavily reweighted into their initial attack. > > > > Chronophantasma wasn't overpowered before because Phantasms when set up did a moderate amount of chip damage and if resummoned just continued to do a moderate amount of chip damage. > > But the current trait is strong because it doesn't require you to do anything to get the new phantasms, since phantasms no longer count towards the clone limit and are resummoned after doing a near instant attack. I think this change would be much more beneficial in reducing the amount of visual clutter and taking out the passive nature of the AI summon by forcing you to keep track of where your clones end up, and also your cooldowns. Things like disenchanter and defender are going to be summoned twice regardless of with the current iteration of the trait. But if for example they became clones and were cleaved down. They would cease to exist. No more double phantasm . > This is what I think the trait needs, counterplay. Also, just to be sure, Like the original iteration of the trait. When a phantasm was resummoned the first time. That was it. > You couldn't just continue to shatter and get back the same phantasm. That would be broken, and never interacted that way. > The current trait is strong because almost every one of our phantasms are potentially fight endingly strong. Avengers hit for anywhere between 4k-7k on other players. Disenchancters will crit on boonless targets for 11k+. Defenders are a reliable 6-7k damage and can easily go up to 20k damage in a fight. The only thing your proposed change would do is give players control over when their phantasms would do their burst and would mean that phantasms would now coordinate their burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > So...Why not just revert Chrono phantasma to the original version in Spvp, where it requires you to shatter to get the phantasms back. > > > > > > This way if you kill the clones. You don't get the resummoned phantasm. > > > > > > > > > > > > Like it used to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also. > > > > > > I explained this in another thread but. > > > > > > > > > > > > half of the illusions in those images are clones. > > > > > > Nothing you do to phantasms is going to stop you from being to overwhelmed or confused by clones shattering ( and I still want to know how you get visually confused from clones in the shatter animation, that's literally a sign that says " hey dummy I'm a clone and I don't exist in 2 seconds cause I was shattered) > > > > > > > > > > Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that Chronophantasma should be reworked so that when you use a shatter skill, the clones shattered become their phantasm counterparts again and use their attack? Because that would be leagues more powerful than it already currently is. > > > > > > > > That's how it was before, and required the clones to successfully shatter. > > > > Wasn't "leagues" more powerful for almost 3 years. > > > > Why would that suddenly change if the original iteration of chronophantasma was restored? > > > > > > Because the power levels of phantasms changed radically with the rework. Aside from the focus phantasm (Which really got shafted with the rework) all of them are leagues more powerful across the board. Some of them have become so much more powerful as to be incomparable to their original counterparts like Disenchanter and Defender. Phantasm before had moderately powerful attacks, but their values was that they persisted until they were manually shattered and would just keep racking up more and more damage. Because they only attack once once now, all that damage they would have racked up was heavily reweighted into their initial attack. > > > > > > Chronophantasma wasn't overpowered before because Phantasms when set up did a moderate amount of chip damage and if resummoned just continued to do a moderate amount of chip damage. > > > > But the current trait is strong because it doesn't require you to do anything to get the new phantasms, since phantasms no longer count towards the clone limit and are resummoned after doing a near instant attack. I think this change would be much more beneficial in reducing the amount of visual clutter and taking out the passive nature of the AI summon by forcing you to keep track of where your clones end up, and also your cooldowns. Things like disenchanter and defender are going to be summoned twice regardless of with the current iteration of the trait. But if for example they became clones and were cleaved down. They would cease to exist. No more double phantasm . > > This is what I think the trait needs, counterplay. Also, just to be sure, Like the original iteration of the trait. When a phantasm was resummoned the first time. That was it. > > You couldn't just continue to shatter and get back the same phantasm. That would be broken, and never interacted that way. > > > > The current trait is strong because almost every one of our phantasms are potentially fight endingly strong. Avengers hit for anywhere between 4k-7k on other players. Disenchancters will crit on boonless targets for 11k+. Defenders are a reliable 6-7k damage and can easily go up to 20k damage in a fight. The only thing your proposed change would do is give players control over when their phantasms would do their burst and would mean that phantasms would now coordinate their burst. My suggestion would also give people time to react, which is something that you don't have. Visual clutter is an issue for you as well is it not? By controlling what is on the screen instead of having them persist for so long you also reduce that, If you see a shatter and you know how to dodge then this change would do nothing but help you since the attacks of phantasms becomes predictable and timely. Currently you could have each deal damage at different or random intervals while also continuing to pressure the player, since like you said, these phantams do fight ending damage this interaction is not healthy. Currently it's hard to decide on what to dodge, and when to dodge. The other option is to keep things as is and change the numerical value on phantasms Something Anet is much more likely to do. So it's a pick your poison at this point. Edit: though it would be funny if they reverted the trait and nerfed the damage as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > So...Why not just revert Chrono phantasma to the original version in Spvp, where it requires you to shatter to get the phantasms back. > > > > > > > This way if you kill the clones. You don't get the resummoned phantasm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like it used to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also. > > > > > > > I explained this in another thread but. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > half of the illusions in those images are clones. > > > > > > > Nothing you do to phantasms is going to stop you from being to overwhelmed or confused by clones shattering ( and I still want to know how you get visually confused from clones in the shatter animation, that's literally a sign that says " hey dummy I'm a clone and I don't exist in 2 seconds cause I was shattered) > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that Chronophantasma should be reworked so that when you use a shatter skill, the clones shattered become their phantasm counterparts again and use their attack? Because that would be leagues more powerful than it already currently is. > > > > > > > > > > That's how it was before, and required the clones to successfully shatter. > > > > > Wasn't "leagues" more powerful for almost 3 years. > > > > > Why would that suddenly change if the original iteration of chronophantasma was restored? > > > > > > > > Because the power levels of phantasms changed radically with the rework. Aside from the focus phantasm (Which really got shafted with the rework) all of them are leagues more powerful across the board. Some of them have become so much more powerful as to be incomparable to their original counterparts like Disenchanter and Defender. Phantasm before had moderately powerful attacks, but their values was that they persisted until they were manually shattered and would just keep racking up more and more damage. Because they only attack once once now, all that damage they would have racked up was heavily reweighted into their initial attack. > > > > > > > > Chronophantasma wasn't overpowered before because Phantasms when set up did a moderate amount of chip damage and if resummoned just continued to do a moderate amount of chip damage. > > > > > > But the current trait is strong because it doesn't require you to do anything to get the new phantasms, since phantasms no longer count towards the clone limit and are resummoned after doing a near instant attack. I think this change would be much more beneficial in reducing the amount of visual clutter and taking out the passive nature of the AI summon by forcing you to keep track of where your clones end up, and also your cooldowns. Things like disenchanter and defender are going to be summoned twice regardless of with the current iteration of the trait. But if for example they became clones and were cleaved down. They would cease to exist. No more double phantasm . > > > This is what I think the trait needs, counterplay. Also, just to be sure, Like the original iteration of the trait. When a phantasm was resummoned the first time. That was it. > > > You couldn't just continue to shatter and get back the same phantasm. That would be broken, and never interacted that way. > > > > > > > The current trait is strong because almost every one of our phantasms are potentially fight endingly strong. Avengers hit for anywhere between 4k-7k on other players. Disenchancters will crit on boonless targets for 11k+. Defenders are a reliable 6-7k damage and can easily go up to 20k damage in a fight. The only thing your proposed change would do is give players control over when their phantasms would do their burst and would mean that phantasms would now coordinate their burst. > > My suggestion would also give people time to react, which is something that you don't have. > Visual clutter is an issue for you as well is it not? > > By controlling what is on the screen instead of having them persist for so long you also reduce that, If you see a shatter and you know how to dodge then this change would do nothing but help you since the attacks of phantasms becomes predictable and timely. > Currently you could have each deal damage at different or random intervals while also continuing to pressure the player, since like you said, these phantams do fight ending damage. > Currently it's hard to decide on what to dodge, and when to dodge. > The other option is to keep things as is and change the numerical value on phantasms > Something Anet is much more likely to do. > > So it's a pick your poison at this point. > > Edit: though it would be funny if they reverted the trait and nerfed the damage as well. The poison I pick is that Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether don't deserve to exist in a world where phantasms are this powerful. One heal skill and one trait should not be turning a potential 10k burst into a 40k burst and your proposed change complicates the process but still allows for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > > So...Why not just revert Chrono phantasma to the original version in Spvp, where it requires you to shatter to get the phantasms back. > > > > > > > > This way if you kill the clones. You don't get the resummoned phantasm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like it used to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also. > > > > > > > > I explained this in another thread but. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > half of the illusions in those images are clones. > > > > > > > > Nothing you do to phantasms is going to stop you from being to overwhelmed or confused by clones shattering ( and I still want to know how you get visually confused from clones in the shatter animation, that's literally a sign that says " hey dummy I'm a clone and I don't exist in 2 seconds cause I was shattered) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that Chronophantasma should be reworked so that when you use a shatter skill, the clones shattered become their phantasm counterparts again and use their attack? Because that would be leagues more powerful than it already currently is. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's how it was before, and required the clones to successfully shatter. > > > > > > Wasn't "leagues" more powerful for almost 3 years. > > > > > > Why would that suddenly change if the original iteration of chronophantasma was restored? > > > > > > > > > > Because the power levels of phantasms changed radically with the rework. Aside from the focus phantasm (Which really got shafted with the rework) all of them are leagues more powerful across the board. Some of them have become so much more powerful as to be incomparable to their original counterparts like Disenchanter and Defender. Phantasm before had moderately powerful attacks, but their values was that they persisted until they were manually shattered and would just keep racking up more and more damage. Because they only attack once once now, all that damage they would have racked up was heavily reweighted into their initial attack. > > > > > > > > > > Chronophantasma wasn't overpowered before because Phantasms when set up did a moderate amount of chip damage and if resummoned just continued to do a moderate amount of chip damage. > > > > > > > > But the current trait is strong because it doesn't require you to do anything to get the new phantasms, since phantasms no longer count towards the clone limit and are resummoned after doing a near instant attack. I think this change would be much more beneficial in reducing the amount of visual clutter and taking out the passive nature of the AI summon by forcing you to keep track of where your clones end up, and also your cooldowns. Things like disenchanter and defender are going to be summoned twice regardless of with the current iteration of the trait. But if for example they became clones and were cleaved down. They would cease to exist. No more double phantasm . > > > > This is what I think the trait needs, counterplay. Also, just to be sure, Like the original iteration of the trait. When a phantasm was resummoned the first time. That was it. > > > > You couldn't just continue to shatter and get back the same phantasm. That would be broken, and never interacted that way. > > > > > > > > > > The current trait is strong because almost every one of our phantasms are potentially fight endingly strong. Avengers hit for anywhere between 4k-7k on other players. Disenchancters will crit on boonless targets for 11k+. Defenders are a reliable 6-7k damage and can easily go up to 20k damage in a fight. The only thing your proposed change would do is give players control over when their phantasms would do their burst and would mean that phantasms would now coordinate their burst. > > > > My suggestion would also give people time to react, which is something that you don't have. > > Visual clutter is an issue for you as well is it not? > > > > By controlling what is on the screen instead of having them persist for so long you also reduce that, If you see a shatter and you know how to dodge then this change would do nothing but help you since the attacks of phantasms becomes predictable and timely. > > Currently you could have each deal damage at different or random intervals while also continuing to pressure the player, since like you said, these phantams do fight ending damage. > > Currently it's hard to decide on what to dodge, and when to dodge. > > The other option is to keep things as is and change the numerical value on phantasms > > Something Anet is much more likely to do. > > > > So it's a pick your poison at this point. > > > > Edit: though it would be funny if they reverted the trait and nerfed the damage as well. > > The poison I pick is that Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether don't deserve to exist in a world where phantasms are this powerful. One heal skill and one trait should not be turning a potential 10k burst into a 40k burst and your proposed change complicates the process but still allows for this. .. .... ......... k You and I both know that isn't even remotely likely to happen. I'm about 80% sure they will just nerf phantasms in spvp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > > > So...Why not just revert Chrono phantasma to the original version in Spvp, where it requires you to shatter to get the phantasms back. > > > > > > > > > This way if you kill the clones. You don't get the resummoned phantasm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like it used to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also. > > > > > > > > > I explained this in another thread but. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > half of the illusions in those images are clones. > > > > > > > > > Nothing you do to phantasms is going to stop you from being to overwhelmed or confused by clones shattering ( and I still want to know how you get visually confused from clones in the shatter animation, that's literally a sign that says " hey dummy I'm a clone and I don't exist in 2 seconds cause I was shattered) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that Chronophantasma should be reworked so that when you use a shatter skill, the clones shattered become their phantasm counterparts again and use their attack? Because that would be leagues more powerful than it already currently is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's how it was before, and required the clones to successfully shatter. > > > > > > > Wasn't "leagues" more powerful for almost 3 years. > > > > > > > Why would that suddenly change if the original iteration of chronophantasma was restored? > > > > > > > > > > > > Because the power levels of phantasms changed radically with the rework. Aside from the focus phantasm (Which really got shafted with the rework) all of them are leagues more powerful across the board. Some of them have become so much more powerful as to be incomparable to their original counterparts like Disenchanter and Defender. Phantasm before had moderately powerful attacks, but their values was that they persisted until they were manually shattered and would just keep racking up more and more damage. Because they only attack once once now, all that damage they would have racked up was heavily reweighted into their initial attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chronophantasma wasn't overpowered before because Phantasms when set up did a moderate amount of chip damage and if resummoned just continued to do a moderate amount of chip damage. > > > > > > > > > > But the current trait is strong because it doesn't require you to do anything to get the new phantasms, since phantasms no longer count towards the clone limit and are resummoned after doing a near instant attack. I think this change would be much more beneficial in reducing the amount of visual clutter and taking out the passive nature of the AI summon by forcing you to keep track of where your clones end up, and also your cooldowns. Things like disenchanter and defender are going to be summoned twice regardless of with the current iteration of the trait. But if for example they became clones and were cleaved down. They would cease to exist. No more double phantasm . > > > > > This is what I think the trait needs, counterplay. Also, just to be sure, Like the original iteration of the trait. When a phantasm was resummoned the first time. That was it. > > > > > You couldn't just continue to shatter and get back the same phantasm. That would be broken, and never interacted that way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current trait is strong because almost every one of our phantasms are potentially fight endingly strong. Avengers hit for anywhere between 4k-7k on other players. Disenchancters will crit on boonless targets for 11k+. Defenders are a reliable 6-7k damage and can easily go up to 20k damage in a fight. The only thing your proposed change would do is give players control over when their phantasms would do their burst and would mean that phantasms would now coordinate their burst. > > > > > > My suggestion would also give people time to react, which is something that you don't have. > > > Visual clutter is an issue for you as well is it not? > > > > > > By controlling what is on the screen instead of having them persist for so long you also reduce that, If you see a shatter and you know how to dodge then this change would do nothing but help you since the attacks of phantasms becomes predictable and timely. > > > Currently you could have each deal damage at different or random intervals while also continuing to pressure the player, since like you said, these phantams do fight ending damage. > > > Currently it's hard to decide on what to dodge, and when to dodge. > > > The other option is to keep things as is and change the numerical value on phantasms > > > Something Anet is much more likely to do. > > > > > > So it's a pick your poison at this point. > > > > > > Edit: though it would be funny if they reverted the trait and nerfed the damage as well. > > > > The poison I pick is that Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether don't deserve to exist in a world where phantasms are this powerful. One heal skill and one trait should not be turning a potential 10k burst into a 40k burst and your proposed change complicates the process but still allows for this. > .. > .... > ......... k > You and I both know that isn't even remotely likely to happen. > > I'm about 80% sure they will just nerf phantasms in spvp I actually think there is a good chance Chronophantasma is going to be radically reworked. Arenanet have never liked Zoo metas and Bunker Chronomancer is basically the amount of screen clutter from the entire Zoo meta combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabbitUp.8294 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. That Chronophantasma was deleted with the rework. The Chronophantasma we have now was specifically designed for the post-rework mesmer and has nothing to do with the old version, besides sharing a name. Your argument is that the trait is too good, because the phantasms are too strong. How about nerfing them directly then? That way, you can balance them for pvp without destroying power chrono in pve. I would rather have the entirety of pvp be deleted from the game than continue having it affect pve like it has done so many times in the past. It's stupid, and it only hurts the game in the long run, to sustain a dead game mode. Are we supposed to pretend balance matters when win traders top the tournaments? Most of the things you mention are problematic on their own. If Disenchanter can hit for 11k and Defender for 20k, is Chronophantasma the problem then? Even if they hit once, they would be dealing way too much damage, it's not the second life that breaks them. As for the visual clutter, it's not even caused by Chronophantasma. Ether and CS are the ones that allow you to stack phantasms, Chronophantasma only resummons the ones that die, so the total number remains the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsaneQR.7412 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 I am in with the ammo idea. Its that what does not kill the flavor and fun of CP. I want to keep the flavor of this GM, i had a blast playing with it on chrono (and i hated chrono till the overhaul), as soon as i got the catch how to summon several berserkers in a row i really felt that this spec is something i could play outside of mirage. Its a rewarding system to pull off these combos, especially against champs or ither mobs. It would be a shame if they would kill the interaction. If they tune it, with your ammo system for example i could totally roll with it, because combos are still possible just not as spammable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. > > That Chronophantasma was deleted with the rework. The Chronophantasma we have now was specifically designed for the post-rework mesmer and has nothing to do with the old version, besides sharing a name. > > Your argument is that the trait is too good, because the phantasms are too strong. How about nerfing them directly then? That way, you can balance them for pvp without destroying power chrono in pve. I would rather have the entirety of pvp be deleted from the game than continue having it affect pve like it has done so many times in the past. It's stupid, and it only hurts the game in the long run, to sustain a dead game mode. Are we supposed to pretend balance matters when win traders top the tournaments? > > Most of the things you mention are problematic on their own. If Disenchanter can hit for 11k and Defender for 20k, is Chronophantasma the problem then? Even if they hit once, they would be dealing way too much damage, it's not the second life that breaks them. > > As for the visual clutter, it's not even caused by Chronophantasma. Ether and CS are the ones that allow you to stack phantasms, Chronophantasma only resummons the ones that die, so the total number remains the same. Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill _straight up quadruple_ their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them. I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations. Mirage is the dedicated damage spec, doubly so because condition damage is designed to be better in longer engagements. Even without Chronophantasma, Mesmer will be the most desired class in PvE with a straight up mandatory support specialization and an excellent DPS specializaiton. We'll live. Also don't play stupid. Chronophantasma is absolutely apart of the visual clutter because it doubles the length of time phantasms are around cluttering the screen. I care about all game modes and want them all to be fun avenues of play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levetty.1279 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > Arenanet have never liked Zoo metas All the Zoo builds are still in the game though, they just nerfed their effectiveness. Maybe Anet should remove Ranger spirits though. :s > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization I mean there is no reason why it shouldn't since it can't do them all at once but if you really want to simplify the game so much then remove the support capabilities and let Renegade take over Alacrity, maybe even slap quickness on it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > I'd be ok if staff phantasm was single but still resulted in spawning 2 clones when it died - that's one part of the skill I hope remains intact. > > Tbh I really don't know which option I prefer for this problem. > > I think Chronophantasma should be changed to the following: > - all phantasms cast their attack twice in the same life (with delay in between as phantasms used to be) > - if the phantasm is killed/interrupted it despawns straight into a clone. > > That way if you kill/interrupt the phantasm it negates the whole thing. BUT this would still keep it relevant for PvE because of the reduced damage to illusions so they will always survive to get off two attacks. > > It could make the trait less desirable in pvp, however I still think with alacrity, CSplit, SoE and the number of phantasms available it will still have a place - but there is more counterplay to cleave the phantasms and negate it. I like this implementation of CP. Keeps the flavor of the trait the same, gives more counterplay to it, but also goes a long way towards reducing the synergy it has with some other traits right now, since it cuts the amount of summoned phantasms in half when its equipped. As for SotE. I have never liked its active effect, so I would like to see it changed. There are several options available for changing it. If people like the current way it works, it could be changed: * Next phantasm you cast goes on a 1sec CD. It would turn into a mimic, but just for phantasm skills. * Reduces recharge time of all phantasm skills by X seconds (or by Y%) If people want something slightly different: * Next phantasm skill you use will summon 2 phantasms, but each one will only be 75% as effective as normal (so, deals 75% damage, boons/conditions only last 75% as long, Disenchanter would only strip 3 or 4 boons instead of 5 etc...). But this would require changing imagined burden and staff phantasm. Or something else entirely could happen with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levetty.1279 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > I'd be ok if staff phantasm was single but still resulted in spawning 2 clones when it died - that's one part of the skill I hope remains intact. > > > > Tbh I really don't know which option I prefer for this problem. > > > > I think Chronophantasma should be changed to the following: > > - all phantasms cast their attack twice in the same life (with delay in between as phantasms used to be) > > - if the phantasm is killed/interrupted it despawns straight into a clone. > > > > That way if you kill/interrupt the phantasm it negates the whole thing. BUT this would still keep it relevant for PvE because of the reduced damage to illusions so they will always survive to get off two attacks. > > > > It could make the trait less desirable in pvp, however I still think with alacrity, CSplit, SoE and the number of phantasms available it will still have a place - but there is more counterplay to cleave the phantasms and negate it. > > I like this implementation of CP. Keeps the flavor of the trait the same, gives more counterplay to it, but also goes a long way towards reducing the synergy it has with some other traits right now, since it cuts the amount of summoned phantasms in half when its equipped. What would your idea for Persistence of Memory be with this since the short duration of boons on phantasms mean CP will negate the trait? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"Levetty.1279" said: > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > I'd be ok if staff phantasm was single but still resulted in spawning 2 clones when it died - that's one part of the skill I hope remains intact. > > > > > > Tbh I really don't know which option I prefer for this problem. > > > > > > I think Chronophantasma should be changed to the following: > > > - all phantasms cast their attack twice in the same life (with delay in between as phantasms used to be) > > > - if the phantasm is killed/interrupted it despawns straight into a clone. > > > > > > That way if you kill/interrupt the phantasm it negates the whole thing. BUT this would still keep it relevant for PvE because of the reduced damage to illusions so they will always survive to get off two attacks. > > > > > > It could make the trait less desirable in pvp, however I still think with alacrity, CSplit, SoE and the number of phantasms available it will still have a place - but there is more counterplay to cleave the phantasms and negate it. > > > > I like this implementation of CP. Keeps the flavor of the trait the same, gives more counterplay to it, but also goes a long way towards reducing the synergy it has with some other traits right now, since it cuts the amount of summoned phantasms in half when its equipped. > > What would your idea for Persistence of Memory be with this since the short duration of boons on phantasms mean CP will negate the trait? Redesigned. It was one of my least favorite traits design wise after it was changed prePoF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > I'd be ok if staff phantasm was single but still resulted in spawning 2 clones when it died - that's one part of the skill I hope remains intact. > > > > Tbh I really don't know which option I prefer for this problem. > > > > I think Chronophantasma should be changed to the following: > > - all phantasms cast their attack twice in the same life (with delay in between as phantasms used to be) > > - if the phantasm is killed/interrupted it despawns straight into a clone. > > > > That way if you kill/interrupt the phantasm it negates the whole thing. BUT this would still keep it relevant for PvE because of the reduced damage to illusions so they will always survive to get off two attacks. > > > > It could make the trait less desirable in pvp, however I still think with alacrity, CSplit, SoE and the number of phantasms available it will still have a place - but there is more counterplay to cleave the phantasms and negate it. > > I like this implementation of CP. Keeps the flavor of the trait the same, gives more counterplay to it, but also goes a long way towards reducing the synergy it has with some other traits right now, since it cuts the amount of summoned phantasms in half when its equipped. > > As for SotE. I have never liked its active effect, so I would like to see it changed. There are several options available for changing it. If people like the current way it works, it could be changed: > * Next phantasm you cast goes on a 1sec CD. It would turn into a mimic, but just for phantasm skills. > * Reduces recharge time of all phantasm skills by X seconds (or by Y%) > > If people want something slightly different: > * Next phantasm skill you use will summon 2 phantasms, but each one will only be 75% as effective as normal (so, deals 75% damage, boons/conditions only last 75% as long, Disenchanter would only strip 3 or 4 boons instead of 5 etc...). But this would require changing imagined burden and staff phantasm. > > Or something else entirely could happen with it. Personally I’m not a big fan of either of these because it essentially adds more recharge reduction to account for which is one of the reasons illusionists celerity was probably removed. SotE could summon 3 clones on use which would fit with its passive effect too. Cause your next X illusions to do Y effect. Give you X effect based on the number of illusions out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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