Account suspension discussion [merged]

[TexZero.7910]

> @"choovanski.5462" said:

> > @"Tanith.5264" said:

> > I'm seeing the word "spyware" getting thrown around a lot regarding this situation. Is there any actual evidence that "spyware" was used against these players, or are we all just having a case of the tinfoil tics due to the word appearing in the news so much?

>

> > @"Tanith.5264" said:

> > I'm seeing the word "spyware" getting thrown around a lot regarding this situation. Is there any actual evidence that "spyware" was used against these players, or are we all just having a case of the tinfoil tics due to the word appearing in the news so much?

>

>

>

> it’s straight up spyware. absolutely disgusting

>

> > @"JohnnySupernova.9182" said:

> > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > > @"JohnnySupernova.9182" said:

> > > > > @"Cynn.1659" said:

> > > > > I find it hilarious that people are mad at anet for looking at the processes they had running. While majority of those angry people run win 10, which gathers data about everything they do and have on their pc all the time, and then sends it to microsoft.

> > > >

> > > > The very first thing any self respecting Win10 user does when they start on a new Win 10 install is purge all that crap off their PC. Regardless, the saying "two wrongs don't make a right" is a concept children can understand, so...

> > >

> > > It's also why one does the "custom" install of Win10 so that you can turn all of that stuff off.

> >

> > Yeah, there's also some big differences between how MS does it and how Anet does it. The biggest being the fact that MS **freaking tells you they're doing it** and **you can opt out**. It's not even like it's behind a million pages of legal jargon! It's right there in the installation!

>

> ^ this. plus i trust microsoft’s data security much more than i do anet.

 

Or that's misinformation by an extremely biased source, you know someone whose banned and is misusing the term spyware disingenuously to create drama.

Additionally, it's not spyware when you consent which everyone using this service did. You voluntarily gave up whatever perceived right to privacy when you consented to the user agreement which states in pretty clear as day terms that anet can scan your system for any tools that may be used to cheat or otherwise gain an unfair advantage.

 

 

 

[Spurnshadow.3678]

Kudos. About time. These people have been ruining the game and turned off lots of people. I hope you keep it up.

[Anthony.3207]

Some people only respect the law when it benefits them at a time of crises.

 

But law is law. Have to respect law and read before you sign anything. It's boring yes but as an adult (especially in America I live in) some of us are taught to be more business minded and law minded.

 

If you do not want to be spied on just click do not accept on the terms of service and ask for a refund for the game. Simple as that.

[JohnnySupernova.9182]

> @"Anthony.3207" said:

> Some people only respect the law when it benefits them at a time of crises.

>

> But law is law. Have to respect law and read before you sign anything. It's boring yes but as an adult (especially in America I live in) some of us are taught to be more business minded and law minded.

>

> If you do not want to be spied on just click do not accept on the terms of service and ask for a refund for the game. Simple as that.

 

EULAs aren't really ironclad legally speaking. They really only exist to intimidate people from taking action against a company. You are out of your mind if you think Anet has free reign over your computer because of an EULA or if you think that'd even hold up in court.

[Samnang.1879]

anet has me shook, biggest sweep of criminals ever!

[Evon Skyfyre.9673]

please remove

[Faaris.8013]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> Additionally, it's not spyware when you consent which everyone using this service did. You voluntarily gave up whatever perceived right to privacy when you consented to the user agreement which states in pretty clear as day terms that anet can scan your system for any tools that may be used to cheat or otherwise gain an unfair advantage.

 

You would not say that if the tool had accessed your webcam and sent screenshots to Anet, just to monitor if nobody else is playing your account, because that would be against the ToS.

 

Or maybe you would, the slavish obedience expressed to authority in many posts here by several people horrifies me.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > Additionally, it's not spyware when you consent which everyone using this service did. You voluntarily gave up whatever perceived right to privacy when you consented to the user agreement which states in pretty clear as day terms that anet can scan your system for any tools that may be used to cheat or otherwise gain an unfair advantage.

>

> You would not say that if the tool had accessed your webcam and sent screenshots to Anet, just to monitor if nobody else is playing your account, because that would be against the ToS.

>

> Or maybe you would, the slavish obedience expressed to authority in many posts here by several people horrifies me.

 

If i consented to it, i would allow it.

However, i don't own a webcam so your hypothetical Orwellian scenario falls flat.

 

You know though whats even more horrifying than what you claim to be slavish obedience ? The sheer attempts to feign ignorance and pretending that anything you do online is protected. What you do online is about as protected as what you do in a park. Both are public spaces.

[Evon Skyfyre.9673]

please remove

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"JohnnySupernova.9182" said:

> > @"Anthony.3207" said:

> > Some people only respect the law when it benefits them at a time of crises.

> >

> > But law is law. Have to respect law and read before you sign anything. It's boring yes but as an adult (especially in America I live in) some of us are taught to be more business minded and law minded.

> >

> > If you do not want to be spied on just click do not accept on the terms of service and ask for a refund for the game. Simple as that.

>

> EULAs aren't really ironclad legally speaking. They really only exist to intimidate people from taking action against a company. You are out of your mind if you think Anet has free reign over your computer because of an EULA or if you think that'd even hold up in court.

 

The thing is, there's a citable, obvious clause right in the terms that near-explicitly states you agree to let ANet do this. It's not that EULA's make the company immune it's that they get to operate with free legal reign within those terms, and those terms were explicitly stated in the agreement within the Terms of Service.

 

EULA's as far as digil privacy go don't hold up in cases where there's doubt based on the extremity of the matter based on "reasonable person" standards of the interpretation of the language and analysis from professionals citing such monitoring isn't realistically necessary (I.E., snapping pictures from a webcam while the application isn't in use to check user behaviors to determine if the game deems the player's out-of-game behavior acceptable to allow an account to the user - the latter of which has precedent but the former does not). However, given the directness of the verbiage in the signed EULA and how tightly it correlates to what was performed in this case, I can't fathom most lawyers even trying to take this case and can see a lot of judges just throwing the case out from the getgo.

 

The actual signage of the EULA is legally-binding and does uphold in court 100%. The only room for dispute here would be ANet's language not being understandable. Thing is, it very obviously is and is quite straightforward, and even those mentioning not understanding the EULA have no case, either, as ANet did not solicit signups, and all users sign that they understand the agreement, too.

 

 

[Evon Skyfyre.9673]

please remove

[Jason.5983]

I think regardless of whether or not people think there was some illegal aspect of it, Arenanet maybe should have hinted at data collection on this scale beforehand, again, regardless of the effect that would have on the operation. I can't say this whole issue hasn't tarnished my view of the company, especially given the lack of a courteous response after this was revealed and questioned by players. I'm quite curious to know if the information has since been deleted. I highly doubt anyone will take this to a court, though the effects are probably worse on the reputation side of things, at least as it stands right now.

 

Somewhat gone from a normal consumer-responsive company, to a perceived **crossing the grey line** Orwellian-type authority, based on the **ineffective methods** they used; the **mere numbers that were banned on a temporary basis, through extravagant data collection methods**, and the **lack of courteous information beforehand**.

[ToPNoP.2493]

If ever I were banned for "cheatware," which could not be the case. I would be so adamant that I am innocent that the case would be heard by all. I am not seeing that really, just a lot of what if's and could be's.

[ShiningSquirrel.3751]

Don't know why so many people have gotten bent out of shape, unless they are cheating as well. This was not "spyware" just because a few admitted cheaters who cheat in multiple different games by their own admission says it is. Heads up folks, this is nothing new! Games have used this type of security software for decades and will continue to use it as long as some players insist in cheating. There is NO defense to using these apps to cheat so if you do and get banned it's on your head. I for one hope Anet continues to do this randomly without any notifications as it can only help the game in the long run.

[PyrateSilly.4710]

> @"Jason.5983" said:

> I think regardless of whether or not people think there was some illegal aspect of it, Arenanet maybe should have hinted at data collection on this scale beforehand, again, regardless of the effect that would have on the operation. I can't say this whole issue hasn't tarnished my view of the company, especially given the lack of a courteous response after this was revealed and questioned by players. I'm quite curious to know if the information has since been deleted. I highly doubt anyone will take this to a court, though the effects are probably worse on the reputation side of things, at least as it stands right now.

>

> Somewhat gone from a normal consumer-responsive company, to a perceived **crossing the grey line** Orwellian-type authority, based on the **ineffective methods** they used; the **mere numbers that were banned on a temporary basis, through extravagant data collection methods**, and the **lack of courteous information beforehand**.

 

I can just see the announcement:

"We know you signed the TOS and/or EULA giving us permission (along with hundreds of other companies) to scan what you have on your computer that you are using at the same time that you are playing GW2 but we are giving you a heads up that we will be doing that between X date and X date"

[Nightlark.4029]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> > Wow. You guys are really pessimistic about human nature, and very optimistic about how infallible ANet is.

> >

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > But there are no false positives. If you cheat in one game you are prone to cheating and should be kept out of online games.

> > > Also the hashing is nothing to a modern CPU, so if it happens let's say every 5min or so it will cosnume like 0.01% of your CPU time.

> > > I just run a benchmark and my CPU can handle hashing 11.7 GB data per second of simple algorithms like MD5.

> > > Even the most complex algorithms my benchmark tool has still reach 1 GB of data hashed per second.

> > Calculating the hash might be a relatively cheap operation for the CPU (depends how often they ran it -- some people experiencing worse performance makes me believe they did it much more frequently than 5 min, I haven't played in the past few months, and I haven't dug into the executable yet to find out how often it ran). However, it was reading the programs as they are stored on the disk, which most definitely cannot handle 11.7 GB of data per second -- SSDs can handle ~650MB/s; a laptop drive might be able to handle 80-160MB/s in a good case, but could extremely low (1MB/s) with random access of small files.

>

> Storage devices become faster quicker than CPU speeds increases. My NVMe SSD already has a peak read of 3.5 GB/s and a write of 2.1 GB/s and there are even faster models.

> What you are saying is the CPU might have to wait for more data from the storage to hash it, but that is a good thing in this case so it has resources left to actually run the game itself.

>

> Anet chose the most resource lenient way to detect these cheaters. We should be happy about it or the complains about a poorly optimized game would be even greater.

>

>

No it is not just the CPU waiting for more data, because you're forgetting that while your computer may have the latest and greatest NVMe SSD, many people still have regular spinning-platter hard drives -- when you get a bunch of random reads, the read head on the drive has to skip around a lot and performance for anything reading from disk is impacted; in game problems of stuttering or longer delays loading models would just be some of the problems encountered, in addition to a potentially large increase in noise coming from the drive. Any of those signs over a long period of time would make players think they need to upgrade to a new computer, when it is really just poorly designed software.

 

Reading 1 GB of small files at 1MB/s is still 15 minutes of time. If they run the hash too frequently, then by the time it finishes the first hash of all processes, it will have started doing the second pass immediately after. While that 15 minutes is a very extreme example, you could imagine a case where someone has 2-4GB of programs being read at 50MB/s that takes about a minute to complete. If ANet happens to run the hash every minute, then now you have the computer constantly computing the hashes of processes.

[Malediktus.9250]

Its not Anets fault if people use prehistoric tech such as HDDs

SSDs have been affordable for at least 7 years now

[BillC.4521]

Now we only need someone to make post about windows and antivirus program using "SPYWARE COMPONENT" to scan your computer and gather your data.

 

If you afraid of gw2 doing this again then just delete/uninstall gw2 from your pc.

Even the reddit post said its built in into the gw2 client but people keep saying as if anet installing separate program into their computer.

And its only scanning for running processes and people keep saying about your picture video and webcam etc

[Jason.5983]

> @"PyrateSilly.4710" said:

> > @"Jason.5983" said:

> > I think regardless of whether or not people think there was some illegal aspect of it, Arenanet maybe should have hinted at data collection on this scale beforehand, again, regardless of the effect that would have on the operation. I can't say this whole issue hasn't tarnished my view of the company, especially given the lack of a courteous response after this was revealed and questioned by players. I'm quite curious to know if the information has since been deleted. I highly doubt anyone will take this to a court, though the effects are probably worse on the reputation side of things, at least as it stands right now.

> >

> > Somewhat gone from a normal consumer-responsive company, to a perceived **crossing the grey line** Orwellian-type authority, based on the **ineffective methods** they used; the **mere numbers that were banned on a temporary basis, through extravagant data collection methods**, and the **lack of courteous information beforehand**.

>

> I can just see the announcement:

> "We know you signed the TOS and/or EULA giving us permission (along with hundreds of other companies) to scan what you have on your computer that you are using at the same time that you are playing GW2 but we are giving you a heads up that we will be doing that between X date and X date"

 

Just because they write the clause, does not mean they have to do such an operation, especially on that scale. The point was, the method turned out to be ineffective and extravagant.

 

Besides which, no company or person would (obviously) ever word it in that sarcastic tone. They don't have to give dates, or intricate specifics; but how about something along the lines of "We are introducing some new functions in the client in order to gather more data about security breaches and TOS violations (Hackers and Macro'ers/Botters)"? Followed by the usual "Thanks for your co-operation", and perhaps a couple assurances.

[Twoodi.5849]

> @"Ewon.5903" said:

> I'm incredibly sad to see what this has brought out of this community. It's like some Salem witch trial thing. "These people were banned, they must be cheating scum! Perma ban them all!"

>

> I'm not banned, but I really feel sorry for those who did get caught up in this. Myself, I'm not so bloodthirsty for a ban wave that any and every ban will do.

>

> Anet going from #GW2FriendShips to #WitchHunt, what a sad time. :(

 

Glad we still have reasonable users on the forums, well said.

[Belorn.2659]

There is a simple test to see if data collection is done in an unethical and wrong way. If anet would not be fine with having the process list from developers computers posted publicly here then they should treat their customers data as sensitive and important as their own data.

 

This has nothing to do with the suspensions (regardless of the topic merge). This has nothing to do with the 5 identified program being targeted. This has also nothing to do with steam and their anti-cheating methods. If I went to steam and asked for a record of all users who has a specific vulnerable version of a banking app, then their reply would be that they do not have that data. Their scanner only report if a specific targeted program is running, but send no records of everything else from their customers machines. I could not ask them for a list of how many people has VPN installed in nations where this is illegal. In contrast, anet could provide such lists. Anet could tomorrow go and send a bunch of people to jail by just providing their collected data to the regime of such countries. They collected that information and has yet to make any statement about what they did with it.

 

To echo a thread from yesterday, please delete the data. Please change the spyware so it operate like a anti-cheat program and only report targeted programs. Do not collect or keep records that has nothing to do with gw2. Do not keep records for which people could go to jail if leaked.

[Yasi.9065]

> @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> A hack resulting of a leak would likely cause a lot more damage with... I don't know... text logs from in game? personal info such as irl name? email?

 

Tbh, irl names arent even THAT important.

Knowing every process being run on a computer - on the other hand - makes it way easier to attack that computer, thats just a fact even amateurs should realize. Anet created a security risk with their behaviour, and they did it in a way thats unsavory and distasteful because it also was an infringement on everybodies privacy.

 

And btw, we still dont know what Anet EXACTLY did with that data.

 

The lack of concern about the security risks and infringement on privacy just plainly worry me. So what if other companies do the same or even worse? That doesnt make ANY of it right.

[Yasi.9065]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > Additionally, it's not spyware when you consent which everyone using this service did. You voluntarily gave up whatever perceived right to privacy when you consented to the user agreement which states in pretty clear as day terms that anet can scan your system for any tools that may be used to cheat or otherwise gain an unfair advantage.

> >

> > You would not say that if the tool had accessed your webcam and sent screenshots to Anet, just to monitor if nobody else is playing your account, because that would be against the ToS.

> >

> > Or maybe you would, the slavish obedience expressed to authority in many posts here by several people horrifies me.

>

> If i consented to it, i would allow it.

> However, i don't own a webcam so your hypothetical Orwellian scenario falls flat.

>

> You know though whats even more horrifying than what you claim to be slavish obedience ? The sheer attempts to feign ignorance and pretending that anything you do online is protected. What you do online is about as protected as what you do in a park. Both are public spaces.

 

And still, personally, Im wearing clothes in park... you know, for protecting my privacy.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

Contracts. We all signed a contract. It's not a 'law', but a legally binding document. And there's a reason they make us click okay to it every time they update it.

 

Seriously? This is the discussion now? For the love of Pete, don't run cheat programs while playing an MMO.

 

You don't need legal knowledge to know this. Just use common sense.

[Jason.5983]

> @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said:

> Contracts. We all signed a contract. It's not a 'law', but a legally binding document. And there's a reason they make us click okay to it every time they update it.

>

> Seriously? This is the discussion now? For the love of Pete, don't run cheat programs while playing an MMO.

>

> You don't need legal knowledge to know this. Just use common sense.

 

There's a big difference between what you're saying, and what many others are saying.

I for one, am more concerned with their methods and lack of transparency.

 

Perhaps looking into the variety of comments and issues raised would highlight that better.