mrstealth.6701 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were _claiming_ to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun Fact: Anet confirmed it > > > > > > > > So how about you volunteer for that ban? > > > > > > > > In fact **ANYONE** who is advocating that they are ok with Arenanet invading private property and wrongfully banning people need to volunteer for a 6 month ban. > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: it is Anet's game, they make the rules on cheating. Hell, they could even ban people whose username starts with a V. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But just imagine if Anet or any other game dev actually did that. While they are almost surely within their rights (even if it's the most broad interpretation of them) to do it, I can't see them having many defenders, if any at all. Even if they could clearly see for themselves that the players had V at the beginning of their username, an absolute proof of "guilt", most people would not be defending the idea that they deserved to be banned. > > > > One of the big differences between that scenario and what is going on now, is the perception of the accusations made. When someone is labeled as a cheater, more people are willing to accept it as the truth without any evidence. And to make things worse, going by Anet's own statement, some of these banned players aren't even accused of actually cheating. > > > > It's just so easy to rail against someone that the authorities have accused/labeled, without considering anything else. > > One of those people who were labeled as cheaters, labeled a company as "privacy violator". > Funny how people are willing to accept that, as well, as the truth, with insufficient evidence. And, to make things worse, going by that same person's later statement, it wasnt a privacy violation after all, yet people still keep saying "i lost my trust in Anet, they monitor everything i do". Remains me of a saying in my country, "Keep saying stuff constantly. Something is bound to stick" The original evidence was more concrete than what came later. That later evidence showed the presence of some sort of data filtering, but it was never clarified as to what was filtered and what was still sent. The likely and logical conclusion would be that only positive matches to cheat programs were reported, but again, there was nothing shown that proved that assumption. So I can understand why some people would still call it a violation of privacy without further evidence. And even if that was proven, there are still the more strict privacy advocates that would continue to label it a privacy violation. However, the only private data sent to Anet in that situation would be from those that had cheat programs detected. They're not exactly wrong to call it a violation, but I think most people are willing to live with that "necessary evil" without labeling it as anything more. I play other games that do similar things. I don't necessarily like it, but I don't have any real issue with it. I think the later findings are probably true, but I would still like to see Anet make a statement to confirm it. That would at least get rid of a good portion of the lingering privacy concerns, and show that they had respected privacy as much as they could while using a tool like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darwinslittlehelper.7182 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 Is this discussion still going on? I will sum up: ArenaNet quietly ran a cheat detection algorithm for several weeks. A number of people where running programs from a very short list that either a)were specifically designed to cheat at GW2 or b)could be used to cheat at GW2. These programs were determined to be running for a significant amount of time at the same time GW2 was running. Nearly 1600 accounts banned for 6 months. Someone posted to reddit his discovery of the algorithm, and what he thinks is going on. Massive rage, whining and blamestorming occurs. A few may have been banned in error, certainly far far less than posters would have you believe. ArenaNet posted a response. A number of banned people threatened and attempted to crowdfund outrage. Some pointed out that this certainly did not get all the cheaters. I would argue not even close, but good start. Final synopsis. Every online game struggles with cheaters. Every online game has people who abuse every aspect, and then cry foul when caught. Every online game trys a number of methods to limit cheaters affects on their game and majority of the player base. Every MMO does something similar to ArenaNet's actions. They should do more. They will have to if they are serious about protecting this game's integrity. If you were banned, and you feel unfairly, appeal with calm and politeness. If you deserve it, and history says you likely do, learn from this and stop trying to cheat. Let's move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shikigami.4013 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" should have said: > Fun fact: people who said they weren't cheating got banned > Corrected that for you. Just because someone says he wasn't cheating doesn't mean he wasn't. If everything someone says could be seen as "fact", courts would have it so much easier. "Did you kill that person?" "No" "Ok not guilty, you can go". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"darwinslittlehelper.7182" said: > If you were banned, and you feel unfairly, appeal with calm and politeness. If you deserve it, and history says you likely do, learn from this and stop trying to cheat. > Anet is not accepting/considering appeals regarding this wave of bans. That is the worst part of this mess. It would probably have settled down by now if they had been using this time to sort through appeals to clear up any wrongful bans and further establish rightful ones. Innocent players would be back to quietly playing their game, and guilty ones trying to feign innocence would have far less credibility and truly innocent players to hide among. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were _claiming_ to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > Fun Fact: Anet confirmed it > > Where? > > > > It's not hard proof for any specific case, but Anet's statement on the ban wave shows their intent to ban people that were not necessarily cheating in GW2. Guilt was assumed based on the presence of a program that could, among its other more common/benign uses, be used to cheat in GW2. > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/476255/#Comment_476255 That's in no way a confirmation that any people _were_ in fact wrongfully banned. As i have already explained a few times. So, my point still stands. Jinks doesn't actually know if anyone that wasn't cheating was wrongfully banned, and contrary to his claims Anet didn't confirm anything like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were _claiming_ to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun Fact: Anet confirmed it > > > > > > > > So how about you volunteer for that ban? > > > > > > > > In fact **ANYONE** who is advocating that they are ok with Arenanet invading private property and wrongfully banning people need to volunteer for a 6 month ban. > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: it is Anet's game, they make the rules on cheating. Hell, they could even ban people whose username starts with a V. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But just imagine if Anet or any other game dev actually did that. While they are almost surely within their rights (even if it's the most broad interpretation of them) to do it, I can't see them having many defenders, if any at all. Even if they could clearly see for themselves that the players had V at the beginning of their username, an absolute proof of "guilt", most people would not be defending the idea that they deserved to be banned. > > > > One of the big differences between that scenario and what is going on now, is the perception of the accusations made. When someone is labeled as a cheater, more people are willing to accept it as the truth without any evidence. And to make things worse, going by Anet's own statement, some of these banned players aren't even accused of actually cheating. > > > > It's just so easy to rail against someone that the authorities have accused/labeled, without considering anything else. > > One of those people who were labeled as cheaters, labeled a company as "privacy violator". > Funny how people are willing to accept that, as well, as the truth, with insufficient evidence. And, to make things worse, going by that same person's later statement, it wasnt a privacy violation after all, yet people still keep saying "i lost my trust in Anet, they monitor everything i do". Remains me of a saying in my country, "Keep saying stuff constantly. Something is bound to stick" Its accepted as the truth because it's been proven. Anet never proved a single person cheated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Shikigami.4013" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" should have said: > > Fun fact: people who said they weren't cheating got banned > > > Corrected that for you. Just because someone says he wasn't cheating doesn't mean he wasn't. > > If everything someone says could be seen as "fact", courts would have it so much easier. > "Did you kill that person?" > "No" > "Ok not guilty, you can go". Because you believe something does not make it true. Using evidence like we are does. What's funny is you are referencing an example of innocent until proven guilty. Murder. If Anet abided by those rules needed to convict a person for murder not one person would be banned. And that's a fact too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were _claiming_ to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun Fact: Anet confirmed it > > > Where? > > > > > > > It's not hard proof for any specific case, but Anet's statement on the ban wave shows their intent to ban people that were not necessarily cheating in GW2. Guilt was assumed based on the presence of a program that could, among its other more common/benign uses, be used to cheat in GW2. > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/476255/#Comment_476255 > That's in no way a confirmation that any people _were_ in fact wrongfully banned. As i have already explained a few times. > So, my point still stands. Jinks doesn't actually know if anyone that wasn't cheating was wrongfully banned, and contrary to his claims Anet didn't confirm anything like that. Yes, and I said as much myself. It's not hard proof. But the statement Anet made (which the wording of implies that they did not intend to confirm cheating) and subsequent refusal to clarify it, does not really make them look good. I would guess a company generally wants to clear up such accusations made against them instead of letting them fester. Kotaku had one of the more accurate and fair [articles](https://kotaku.com/guild-wars-2-developers-criticized-for-technique-used-t-1825324789) I've seen in games media about this mess. They pointed out that Anet wasn't clear if they had checked for actual cheating in GW2, and requested them to clarify their statement. Anet declined to say anything. Again, it doesn't prove anything for sure, but it can cast doubt on their intentions and actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > Its accepted as the truth because it's been proven. > > Anet never proved a single person cheated You're basing your "proven" and "truth" claims on an announcement by the community moderator and information given to people whose accounts were suspended. That does not constitute proof that ANet didn't check further into individual cases, and just opted not to tell anyone the other steps they took. If I were communicating with people I knew had hacked the game, there's no way I would tell them anything I didn't have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 Double standards are a funny thing, especially > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > > Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were _claiming_ to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun Fact: Anet confirmed it > > > > > > > > > > So how about you volunteer for that ban? > > > > > > > > > > In fact **ANYONE** who is advocating that they are ok with Arenanet invading private property and wrongfully banning people need to volunteer for a 6 month ban. > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: it is Anet's game, they make the rules on cheating. Hell, they could even ban people whose username starts with a V. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But just imagine if Anet or any other game dev actually did that. While they are almost surely within their rights (even if it's the most broad interpretation of them) to do it, I can't see them having many defenders, if any at all. Even if they could clearly see for themselves that the players had V at the beginning of their username, an absolute proof of "guilt", most people would not be defending the idea that they deserved to be banned. > > > > > > One of the big differences between that scenario and what is going on now, is the perception of the accusations made. When someone is labeled as a cheater, more people are willing to accept it as the truth without any evidence. And to make things worse, going by Anet's own statement, some of these banned players aren't even accused of actually cheating. > > > > > > It's just so easy to rail against someone that the authorities have accused/labeled, without considering anything else. > > > > One of those people who were labeled as cheaters, labeled a company as "privacy violator". > > Funny how people are willing to accept that, as well, as the truth, with insufficient evidence. And, to make things worse, going by that same person's later statement, it wasnt a privacy violation after all, yet people still keep saying "i lost my trust in Anet, they monitor everything i do". Remains me of a saying in my country, "Keep saying stuff constantly. Something is bound to stick" > > Its accepted as the truth because it's been proven. > > Anet never proved a single person cheated "My mother can't install UNF therefore I don't cheat." is not proof of truth. MD5 hashing value having a (1/2)^128 chance of collision (or 2^64 as explained https://stackoverflow.com/questions/201705/how-many-random-elements-before-md5-produces-collisions) is however a fact, but that doesn't seem to stop you from accusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > Its accepted as the truth because it's been proven. > > > > Anet never proved a single person cheated > > You're basing your "proven" and "truth" claims on an announcement by the community moderator and information given to people whose accounts were suspended. That does not constitute proof that ANet didn't check further into individual cases, and just opted not to tell anyone the other steps they took. If I were communicating with people I knew had hacked the game, there's no way I would tell them anything I didn't have to. It's been confirmed that even having a process open would ping the spyware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > Double standards are a funny thing, especially > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > > > Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were _claiming_ to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun Fact: Anet confirmed it > > > > > > > > > > > > So how about you volunteer for that ban? > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact **ANYONE** who is advocating that they are ok with Arenanet invading private property and wrongfully banning people need to volunteer for a 6 month ban. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: it is Anet's game, they make the rules on cheating. Hell, they could even ban people whose username starts with a V. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But just imagine if Anet or any other game dev actually did that. While they are almost surely within their rights (even if it's the most broad interpretation of them) to do it, I can't see them having many defenders, if any at all. Even if they could clearly see for themselves that the players had V at the beginning of their username, an absolute proof of "guilt", most people would not be defending the idea that they deserved to be banned. > > > > > > > > One of the big differences between that scenario and what is going on now, is the perception of the accusations made. When someone is labeled as a cheater, more people are willing to accept it as the truth without any evidence. And to make things worse, going by Anet's own statement, some of these banned players aren't even accused of actually cheating. > > > > > > > > It's just so easy to rail against someone that the authorities have accused/labeled, without considering anything else. > > > > > > One of those people who were labeled as cheaters, labeled a company as "privacy violator". > > > Funny how people are willing to accept that, as well, as the truth, with insufficient evidence. And, to make things worse, going by that same person's later statement, it wasnt a privacy violation after all, yet people still keep saying "i lost my trust in Anet, they monitor everything i do". Remains me of a saying in my country, "Keep saying stuff constantly. Something is bound to stick" > > > > Its accepted as the truth because it's been proven. > > > > Anet never proved a single person cheated > > "My mother can't install UNF therefore I don't cheat." is not proof of truth. > MD5 hashing value having a (1/2)^128 chance of collision (or 2^64 as explained https://stackoverflow.com/questions/201705/how-many-random-elements-before-md5-produces-collisions) is however a fact, but that doesn't seem to stop you from accusing. You keep commenting yet fail to volunteer to banned. The funniest part in all this is I've yet to see any of the people who support unabridged violation of private property volunteer to be banned. It's quite hilarious you don't practice what you preach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > Double standards are a funny thing, especially > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > > > Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were _claiming_ to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun Fact: Anet confirmed it > > > > > > > > > > > > So how about you volunteer for that ban? > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact **ANYONE** who is advocating that they are ok with Arenanet invading private property and wrongfully banning people need to volunteer for a 6 month ban. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: it is Anet's game, they make the rules on cheating. Hell, they could even ban people whose username starts with a V. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But just imagine if Anet or any other game dev actually did that. While they are almost surely within their rights (even if it's the most broad interpretation of them) to do it, I can't see them having many defenders, if any at all. Even if they could clearly see for themselves that the players had V at the beginning of their username, an absolute proof of "guilt", most people would not be defending the idea that they deserved to be banned. > > > > > > > > One of the big differences between that scenario and what is going on now, is the perception of the accusations made. When someone is labeled as a cheater, more people are willing to accept it as the truth without any evidence. And to make things worse, going by Anet's own statement, some of these banned players aren't even accused of actually cheating. > > > > > > > > It's just so easy to rail against someone that the authorities have accused/labeled, without considering anything else. > > > > > > One of those people who were labeled as cheaters, labeled a company as "privacy violator". > > > Funny how people are willing to accept that, as well, as the truth, with insufficient evidence. And, to make things worse, going by that same person's later statement, it wasnt a privacy violation after all, yet people still keep saying "i lost my trust in Anet, they monitor everything i do". Remains me of a saying in my country, "Keep saying stuff constantly. Something is bound to stick" > > > > Its accepted as the truth because it's been proven. > > > > Anet never proved a single person cheated > > "My mother can't install UNF therefore I don't cheat." is not proof of truth. > MD5 hashing value having a (1/2)^128 chance of collision (or 2^64 as explained https://stackoverflow.com/questions/201705/how-many-random-elements-before-md5-produces-collisions) is however a fact, but that doesn't seem to stop you from accusing. Unlikely as they may be, collisions can happen. There are incidents where it has happened before. I brought up Blizzard's Warden earlier, which uses hashes to detect running cheat programs, having at least a couple difference instances where it was producing false positives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did. What is the ESRB rating of GW2? Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA? I thank you all for participating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > Anet never proved a single person cheated Anet doesn't need to prove anyone was cheating to ban them. They define what the violation is. I mean, you seem to be throwing this term 'cheating' around like it's the ONLY reason Anet would ban someone. That's just not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fremtid.3528 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 I openly admit to having 6 accounts that only I use which I bought HoT ultimate for each and every one of. I don't do anything that's not against the rules on any of them so if I suddenly got a ban for owning them you bet your butt i'd be pissed. I've spent gems upgrading them to make playing them easier (like every single account has a watchwork pick, all but 2 accounts has at least a full set, my main account has like 9 sets). Bag slots, bank space, heck a couple of the accounts even have some extra mat storage. I bought living story 2 and on two of them even. It'd really be their loss if they turned around and banned me tho because I wouldn't have 6 accounts to spend money on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > Anet never proved a single person cheated > > Anet doesn't need to prove anyone was cheating to ban them. They define what the violation is. I mean, you seem to be throwing this term 'cheating' around like it's the ONLY reason Anet would ban someone. That's just not true. Again they stated all bans were for cheating and never proved the people they banned were cheating. How about Anet bans you for 6 months? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > Its accepted as the truth because it's been proven. > > > > > > Anet never proved a single person cheated > > > > You're basing your "proven" and "truth" claims on an announcement by the community moderator and information given to people whose accounts were suspended. That does not constitute proof that ANet didn't check further into individual cases, and just opted not to tell anyone the other steps they took. If I were communicating with people I knew had hacked the game, there's no way I would tell them anything I didn't have to. > > It's been confirmed that even having a process open would ping the spyware. No one knows, except ANet, what ANet did _after_ they received the data showing process X was running on User Y's computer concurrently with GW2 for Z time. Come back when you've got that info. Until then, or unless ANet says more, you have no proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > Double standards are a funny thing, especially > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > > > > Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were _claiming_ to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun Fact: Anet confirmed it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So how about you volunteer for that ban? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact **ANYONE** who is advocating that they are ok with Arenanet invading private property and wrongfully banning people need to volunteer for a 6 month ban. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: it is Anet's game, they make the rules on cheating. Hell, they could even ban people whose username starts with a V. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But just imagine if Anet or any other game dev actually did that. While they are almost surely within their rights (even if it's the most broad interpretation of them) to do it, I can't see them having many defenders, if any at all. Even if they could clearly see for themselves that the players had V at the beginning of their username, an absolute proof of "guilt", most people would not be defending the idea that they deserved to be banned. > > > > > > > > > > One of the big differences between that scenario and what is going on now, is the perception of the accusations made. When someone is labeled as a cheater, more people are willing to accept it as the truth without any evidence. And to make things worse, going by Anet's own statement, some of these banned players aren't even accused of actually cheating. > > > > > > > > > > It's just so easy to rail against someone that the authorities have accused/labeled, without considering anything else. > > > > > > > > One of those people who were labeled as cheaters, labeled a company as "privacy violator". > > > > Funny how people are willing to accept that, as well, as the truth, with insufficient evidence. And, to make things worse, going by that same person's later statement, it wasnt a privacy violation after all, yet people still keep saying "i lost my trust in Anet, they monitor everything i do". Remains me of a saying in my country, "Keep saying stuff constantly. Something is bound to stick" > > > > > > Its accepted as the truth because it's been proven. > > > > > > Anet never proved a single person cheated > > > > "My mother can't install UNF therefore I don't cheat." is not proof of truth. > > MD5 hashing value having a (1/2)^128 chance of collision (or 2^64 as explained https://stackoverflow.com/questions/201705/how-many-random-elements-before-md5-produces-collisions) is however a fact, but that doesn't seem to stop you from accusing. > > You keep commenting yet fail to volunteer to banned. > > The funniest part in all this is I've yet to see any of the people who support unabridged violation of private property volunteer to be banned. It's quite hilarious you don't practice what you preach This "request" is the perfect representation of the worst of what comes out of extreme cyber-SJWing. "Oh you don't agree with me, so just do something bad and get just banned with them, so that you can be like them and complain that you didn't do anything wrong and that Anet invaded your privacy. You'll understand how bad it feels!". No, it won't work. I am sorry that you thought you had found a perfect catch phrase that you could keep bringing at everyone who points out your double standard, but it's only showing the absurdity and contradiction of someone thinking they have the higher ground of morality. Earlier in this thread some people who actually cheated ADMITTED to do so, and ADMITTED it was fair, that makes a whole world of difference between their morality and yours. Some people are willing to admit they shouldn't have done something while you'd rather blame it all on a company for defending its property (and the players with it now) Thankfully some people read what they sign up for, understand some actions are necessary to keep a game healthy, and aren't blaming a company after the facts by totally disrespecting what they signed up for. If they don't agree, they don't install the program. But it's too easy, and frankly dishonest to complain about property violation now. And if you do install the game, and run into issues like getting banned, then discuss them with Anet, but this little vendetta is not helping the game, not helping the players who got wrongfully banned, and not helping making others players feel sorry for them. And because I know this is going to circle back: "I would focus on the matter of false positives." "If people were angry just because of Anet refusing appeal, I would understand, and support" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > Anet never proved a single person cheated > > > > Anet doesn't need to prove anyone was cheating to ban them. They define what the violation is. I mean, you seem to be throwing this term 'cheating' around like it's the ONLY reason Anet would ban someone. That's just not true. > > Again they stated all bans were for cheating and never proved the people they banned were cheating. > > How about Anet bans you for 6 months? 1. They don't need to prove it 2. Clearly, you aren't understanding what their definition of the violation is. 3. I don't know ... how about they ban me for 6 months? What's your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > Its accepted as the truth because it's been proven. > > > > > > > > Anet never proved a single person cheated > > > > > > You're basing your "proven" and "truth" claims on an announcement by the community moderator and information given to people whose accounts were suspended. That does not constitute proof that ANet didn't check further into individual cases, and just opted not to tell anyone the other steps they took. If I were communicating with people I knew had hacked the game, there's no way I would tell them anything I didn't have to. > > > > It's been confirmed that even having a process open would ping the spyware. > > No one knows, except ANet, what ANet did _after_ they received the data showing process X was running on User Y's computer concurrently with GW2 for Z time. Come back when you've got that info. Until then, or unless ANet says more, you have no proof. No the program was read as to what it did by someone who does it for a living. It was also confirmed once they saw it read the processes not related to the GW2 client. Again all fact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > Its accepted as the truth because it's been proven. > > > > > > > > > > Anet never proved a single person cheated > > > > > > > > You're basing your "proven" and "truth" claims on an announcement by the community moderator and information given to people whose accounts were suspended. That does not constitute proof that ANet didn't check further into individual cases, and just opted not to tell anyone the other steps they took. If I were communicating with people I knew had hacked the game, there's no way I would tell them anything I didn't have to. > > > > > > It's been confirmed that even having a process open would ping the spyware. > > > > No one knows, except ANet, what ANet did _after_ they received the data showing process X was running on User Y's computer concurrently with GW2 for Z time. Come back when you've got that info. Until then, or unless ANet says more, you have no proof. > > No the program was read as to what it did by someone who does it for a living. It was also confirmed once they saw it read the processes not related to the GW2 client. > > Again all fact You know ... you would THINK that someone knowledgable about gaming and using THAT kind of software for a living would be one of the MOST aware of how it would violate the ToS if they ran it concurrently with the game .... just sayin' :confounded: You're trying to make these people out like innocent victims ... seems to me these people should be the MOST aware of their computer setups and actions out of any of the people that got banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > Double standards are a funny thing, especially > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were _claiming_ to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun Fact: Anet confirmed it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So how about you volunteer for that ban? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact **ANYONE** who is advocating that they are ok with Arenanet invading private property and wrongfully banning people need to volunteer for a 6 month ban. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: it is Anet's game, they make the rules on cheating. Hell, they could even ban people whose username starts with a V. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But just imagine if Anet or any other game dev actually did that. While they are almost surely within their rights (even if it's the most broad interpretation of them) to do it, I can't see them having many defenders, if any at all. Even if they could clearly see for themselves that the players had V at the beginning of their username, an absolute proof of "guilt", most people would not be defending the idea that they deserved to be banned. > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the big differences between that scenario and what is going on now, is the perception of the accusations made. When someone is labeled as a cheater, more people are willing to accept it as the truth without any evidence. And to make things worse, going by Anet's own statement, some of these banned players aren't even accused of actually cheating. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's just so easy to rail against someone that the authorities have accused/labeled, without considering anything else. > > > > > > > > > > One of those people who were labeled as cheaters, labeled a company as "privacy violator". > > > > > Funny how people are willing to accept that, as well, as the truth, with insufficient evidence. And, to make things worse, going by that same person's later statement, it wasnt a privacy violation after all, yet people still keep saying "i lost my trust in Anet, they monitor everything i do". Remains me of a saying in my country, "Keep saying stuff constantly. Something is bound to stick" > > > > > > > > Its accepted as the truth because it's been proven. > > > > > > > > Anet never proved a single person cheated > > > > > > "My mother can't install UNF therefore I don't cheat." is not proof of truth. > > > MD5 hashing value having a (1/2)^128 chance of collision (or 2^64 as explained https://stackoverflow.com/questions/201705/how-many-random-elements-before-md5-produces-collisions) is however a fact, but that doesn't seem to stop you from accusing. > > > > You keep commenting yet fail to volunteer to banned. > > > > The funniest part in all this is I've yet to see any of the people who support unabridged violation of private property volunteer to be banned. It's quite hilarious you don't practice what you preach > > This "request" is the perfect representation of the worst of what comes out of extreme cyber-SJWing. "Oh you don't agree with me, so just do something bad and get just banned with them, so that you can be like them and complain that you didn't do anything wrong and that Anet invaded your privacy. You'll understand how bad it feels!". > No, it won't work. I am sorry that you thought you had found a perfect catch phrase that you could keep bringing at everyone who points out your double standard, but it's only showing the absurdity and contradiction of someone thinking they have the higher ground of morality. > Earlier in this thread some people who actually cheated ADMITTED to do so, and ADMITTED it was fair, that makes a whole world of difference between their morality and yours. Some people are willing to admit they shouldn't have done something while you'd rather blame it all on a company for defending its property (and the players with it now) > > Thankfully some people read what they sign up for, understand some actions are necessary to keep a game healthy, and aren't blaming a company after the facts by totally disrespecting what they signed up for. If they don't agree, they don't install the program. But it's too easy, and frankly dishonest to complain about property violation now. > > And if you do install the game, and run into issues like getting banned, then discuss them with Anet, but this little vendetta is not helping the game, not helping the players who got wrongfully banned, and not helping making others players feel sorry for them. > And because I know this is going to circle back: > "I would focus on the matter of false positives." > "If people were angry just because of Anet refusing appeal, I would understand, and support" You keep accusing me of being a social justice warrior, but I do not think you know what a social justice warrior actually is. Social Justice Warriors promote the removal of the individual's rights for the betterment of the the whole. So in this case you are for removing the privacy and wrongful banning of individuals so the whole population can have a better experience. Me requesting you all to be banned unjustly as well for the betterment of the whole is seeing you truly believe in your socialistic approach to the issue. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > Its accepted as the truth because it's been proven. > > > > > > > > > > Anet never proved a single person cheated > > > > > > > > You're basing your "proven" and "truth" claims on an announcement by the community moderator and information given to people whose accounts were suspended. That does not constitute proof that ANet didn't check further into individual cases, and just opted not to tell anyone the other steps they took. If I were communicating with people I knew had hacked the game, there's no way I would tell them anything I didn't have to. > > > > > > It's been confirmed that even having a process open would ping the spyware. > > > > No one knows, except ANet, what ANet did _after_ they received the data showing process X was running on User Y's computer concurrently with GW2 for Z time. Come back when you've got that info. Until then, or unless ANet says more, you have no proof. > > No the program was read as to what it did by someone who does it for a living. It was also confirmed once they saw it read the processes not related to the GW2 client. > > Again all fact "Doing it for a living" doesn't mean you won't miss something, that doesn't mean you don't assume something and end up being wrong, and that doesn't mean you're not opionionated. In fact he had to update his post because of finding that you are conveniently stripping now. I also work in I.T. for a living. So was the guy that contradicted his finding. Duh. Again, because you don't understand a thing about technology, every process running on your computer and especially with elevated rights can read whatever is running / you're doing, what matters is what they DO with it. This debate has been closed and dead for a while and you're the online one who still doesn't understand it. And if you're not ok with that filtered hash regarding cheating programs being sent online, again, you can keep preaching your definition of private property violations and sue all these game companies in court while we keep playing this game, steam games, and basically use our computers normally like everyone uses it today, while you stay offline on Windows 95. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > Double standards are a funny thing, especially > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were _claiming_ to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun Fact: Anet confirmed it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So how about you volunteer for that ban? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact **ANYONE** who is advocating that they are ok with Arenanet invading private property and wrongfully banning people need to volunteer for a 6 month ban. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: it is Anet's game, they make the rules on cheating. Hell, they could even ban people whose username starts with a V. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But just imagine if Anet or any other game dev actually did that. While they are almost surely within their rights (even if it's the most broad interpretation of them) to do it, I can't see them having many defenders, if any at all. Even if they could clearly see for themselves that the players had V at the beginning of their username, an absolute proof of "guilt", most people would not be defending the idea that they deserved to be banned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the big differences between that scenario and what is going on now, is the perception of the accusations made. When someone is labeled as a cheater, more people are willing to accept it as the truth without any evidence. And to make things worse, going by Anet's own statement, some of these banned players aren't even accused of actually cheating. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's just so easy to rail against someone that the authorities have accused/labeled, without considering anything else. > > > > > > > > > > > > One of those people who were labeled as cheaters, labeled a company as "privacy violator". > > > > > > Funny how people are willing to accept that, as well, as the truth, with insufficient evidence. And, to make things worse, going by that same person's later statement, it wasnt a privacy violation after all, yet people still keep saying "i lost my trust in Anet, they monitor everything i do". Remains me of a saying in my country, "Keep saying stuff constantly. Something is bound to stick" > > > > > > > > > > Its accepted as the truth because it's been proven. > > > > > > > > > > Anet never proved a single person cheated > > > > > > > > "My mother can't install UNF therefore I don't cheat." is not proof of truth. > > > > MD5 hashing value having a (1/2)^128 chance of collision (or 2^64 as explained https://stackoverflow.com/questions/201705/how-many-random-elements-before-md5-produces-collisions) is however a fact, but that doesn't seem to stop you from accusing. > > > > > > You keep commenting yet fail to volunteer to banned. > > > > > > The funniest part in all this is I've yet to see any of the people who support unabridged violation of private property volunteer to be banned. It's quite hilarious you don't practice what you preach > > > > This "request" is the perfect representation of the worst of what comes out of extreme cyber-SJWing. "Oh you don't agree with me, so just do something bad and get just banned with them, so that you can be like them and complain that you didn't do anything wrong and that Anet invaded your privacy. You'll understand how bad it feels!". > > No, it won't work. I am sorry that you thought you had found a perfect catch phrase that you could keep bringing at everyone who points out your double standard, but it's only showing the absurdity and contradiction of someone thinking they have the higher ground of morality. > > Earlier in this thread some people who actually cheated ADMITTED to do so, and ADMITTED it was fair, that makes a whole world of difference between their morality and yours. Some people are willing to admit they shouldn't have done something while you'd rather blame it all on a company for defending its property (and the players with it now) > > > > Thankfully some people read what they sign up for, understand some actions are necessary to keep a game healthy, and aren't blaming a company after the facts by totally disrespecting what they signed up for. If they don't agree, they don't install the program. But it's too easy, and frankly dishonest to complain about property violation now. > > > > And if you do install the game, and run into issues like getting banned, then discuss them with Anet, but this little vendetta is not helping the game, not helping the players who got wrongfully banned, and not helping making others players feel sorry for them. > > And because I know this is going to circle back: > > "I would focus on the matter of false positives." > > "If people were angry just because of Anet refusing appeal, I would understand, and support" > > You keep accusing me of being a kitten, but I do not think you know what a kitten actually is. kitten promote the removal of the individual's rights for the betterment of the the whole. So in this case you are for removing the privacy and wrongful banning of individuals so the whole population can have a better experience. Me requesting you all to be banned unjustly as well for the betterment of the whole is seeing you truly believe in your socialistic approach to the issue. > > Thank you Unfortunately, ... for you .... that makes no sense. (which is probably fortunate for everyone that read it) You see, these people weren't unjustly banned. They met the criteria Anet defined for the violation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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