Miellyn.6847 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > >.... > > > > 2. From all of the current sucessful MMORPGs exactly zero have this 'natural party building'. Seems to work. > > 4. WoW, the holy grail for many people when it comes to raid design, has actually the exact same problem, only with achievements not items. It also doesn't 'hard lock' you from accessing the content if you really want to play it otherwise noone would play it. WoW on the other hand locks you from accessing the raids until you reached a certain equipment lvl. You can also create fake chatcodes if you want to go the lying route. But people can tell pretty fast if you don't have experience. Same as in other games. > > 5. People go for the easiest way. There are compositions that replace Chronomancers but it takes more effort so PUGs don't do it. DPS is pretty balanced except for Weaver on big hitboxes. > > 6. That's the people not the raids. I have LI for 2 more sets of armor and still raid. > > 7. Raids _are_ not for everybody. No game has 100% raid participation even with WoWs braindead LFR. Focusing on one demographic if you don't have ressources to cater to multiple is the right choice. > > > > There is a site for raid logs, gw2raidar. WoW is at a point where your external score is relevant for ingame groups. Yes GW2 is pretty tame compared to other games. > > Low DPS at VG for doing greens? Yes he is bad. All decent groups don't do greens anymore. LI/KP don't hard lock you. Just from most better groups. If you think you can play there create fake chatcodes. > > > > Chrono carry potential got drastically reduced in PUGs with the distortion change. Druid doesn't carry more than any other healing profession. Do you wan't to remove all external healing? > > > > GW2 is special as you can't faceroll raids with way higher equipment. That's the reason training raids exist. Try to get into heroic raids in WoW at the end of the first week without the achievement and a medicore PvE score from an external website. Good luck. > > Funny thing you use WoW as example. Just to be clear: The MMORPG-world doesn't only consist of WoW and WoW also suffered from a lot of awful design-options. Using WoW as an example, your first point is just wrong. WoW as one of the most successful MMORPGs actually had that kind of "natural party building" in its vanilla-days. It was one of the main-factors which made the game popular in the first place and why a lot of people wanted Vanilla-servers to begin with. There is a reason why Activision Blizzard had to give in to that request. True, that's not neccessarily the case for most MMORPGs in their current (!) version, but the "casualization" most MMORPGs went through in order to get more people playing it for more revenue also hurt both the Genre and the games a lot; nonetheless it is true for classic MMORPGs. Let's not even talk about the game-as-a-job-mentality a lot of people - especially MMORPG-players - have nowadays... > Yeah but not because they want the raids so much. More like the current quest- and classdesign is garbage. Many don't want LFD anymore. Raids are basically the only thing that current WoW is praised for. > Certain equipment-levels or achievement-requirements aren't a hardlocking mechanism. You'll reach that eventually by playing. LI/KP-requirements though are a hardlocking-mechanism since they require you to have the content you want to enter already completed. Sure, I could use chatcodes. But is it really healthy for a game when people have to rely on lying to get into content? It certainly isn't. The reality confirms this: Nearly every LFG-squad locks people out through LI/KP-requirements, even some "training"-squads do. You also have a hard time finding an actual static via forum if you don't already have a lot of LI/KP, preferably playing multiclass, etc. We certainly are in an unhealthy state where we have the raiding- as some sort of parallel-community that has a strong tendency to isolate itself. > Hard-Lock would mean you can never access it. And this is just plain wrong. It just denies you the access to certain groups, not raids in general. > I dare say that raids could be for everybody difficulty-wise. They aren't that hard and you don't need to "train" them all that often. If GW2 isn't your first MMORPG, doing a boss 1 to 3 times should be already sufficient. Sure, some people may don't like them, but the percentage of players doing them is laughably low and should be a sign to ANet that they have to improve their game-design. You also have to consider that raids hold one of the games main-reward: legendary armor. Yes, they may be not for everyone, but at the very least the majority of people should be interested in them/doing them. > Most guilds need more than 1-3 tries to kill bosses the first time. Yes you need more tries unless you want to get carried. Bit cocky? Legendary armor is also available in PvP and WvW. > Raidar is a helping-tool for yourself. It isn't public. I can't scroll through people and see their results. Thus people can't easily check me and see that way that I can carry my own weight. Raidar is in no way a replacement of the stupid LI/KP-system people use. That people don't use greens anymore speaks more than words actually. It means that the game-design failed because - obviously - that encounter has become too easy if you can cheese it by outhealing. It also speaks of the class-inbalance of the game. Certainly I don't want to remove external healing, but apparently, it is too strong - at least in combination with defensive boons. Druid-spirits are a real offender to decent game-design in that regard. > Outside of mass rezzing, the defensive capabilities of heal firebrand and heal revenant are pretty close to druids or better. But not the _offensive_ buffs. That's the reason you take druids. Defensive is not needed that much. > Yes, the carry-potential of Chrono has been lowered - rightfully so. Mass-Distortion was atrocious game-design. Still, since Chrono and Druid unite so many roles in one specialization each makes them carry raids. It's not just the tank/heal-roles, it's also the overpowered support and of course the overpowered utilities. These specializations have to be reworked for a healthy balance. They dominate PvE which is atrocious game-design. > Firebrand and Heal-Revenant can do the exact same thing outside of spotter and ranger spirits. But are harder to pull off due less range. They would just replace them and you would complain again. Alternatives are already there. The problem is that there are only 2 classes, mesmer and firebrand, with group quickness and 2 classes, revenant and mesmer, with group alacrity. As mesmer does both you just take the healing support with most offensive buffs. > GW2 is far from special. Raids aren't that overly difficult. I don't get why people are always overglorifying them. You may can't faceroll them through overpowered gear, but there certainly is faceroll-potential through certain setups. I also don't really get the argument to begin with. People start hard endgame-content in traditional MMORPGs with sh*tty gear - they get that overpowered gear by clearing hard content. As to your WoW-example: Refer to the first paragraph. The casualization of the genre and the shift in player-mentality "the game as a job" has hurt the genre tremendously. That's an unhealthy development that occured during the years, it wasn't always that way. In fact, pseudo-elitism was very niche - let's say - a decade ago, where it now is pretty mainstream, even though we got kitten done back in the day too. No they don't. Especially not in WoW where you are already overgeared if you played between two raids, thanks to titanforged. Elitism is pretty tame compared to dungeons at release. Unless you play with good weavers the DPS difference is not that high between DPS-classes. Firebrand and Revenant are pretty good damagewise. Stop comparing MMORPGs from 15 years to now. GW2 was developed under the aspect from MMOs around 2010, not 2003. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > something that was hard to get is easy(er) now -> it has lower value -> my work has lower value. > > No. > > I'm sorry that you feel that way, but it's not true, and you're only setting yourself up for hardships. The work you put in on something is the work you put in on it, even if they later offer something for a lower price. If the game launches at $60, and then they make it free to play three years later, does that devalue the work you put in to earn that $60? Nothing can ever devalue the work you put in, even if other players arrive at the same destination by an easier path. You having traveled a more difficult path to get there does not mean that you are entitled to begrudge other players for taking the easier path. > > >If something is for free it has 0 value. Value increses by 2 things: how much others want that and how hard it is to get. > > The value in the item is in the item itself. Do you want one of your characters to wear that skin? Yes? Then it has value, no matter where it comes from. Do you want one of your characters to wear that skin? No? Then it has no value, no matter how hard it is to get or how few people have it. > > >IT DOES CHANGE IT. It fracture the players that play raids. Some of them (more casual raiders) might go from normal to easy mode so we lose players on normal mode. > > If so, that's a good thing. If they would prefer to be playing easy mode, then they *should* be playing easy mode, and *you* should be *happy* about that, because that will make them happier, and you should be happy when other players are happy. You are not *entitled* to having players fill out *your* raid teams if they would rather be doing something else. If you really need their help that much, maybe offer to pay them to join you, make it worth their while. > > >Btw why do you want to do raids if you want them easy? I am sorry but i dont get it. Its like if someone wants to do PvP but dont want to fight other players. > > I think we've explained our positions, but at the end of the day you don't have to understand why we want it, just as I can't truly understand why anyone would enjoy "training raids," all you need to understand is that players *do* want it, and help them to achieve that. > > >Notice parts: ultimate challange, grow your skill, challange you, skilled pve players and ultimate test. > >Making it easy goes against the idea of raids > > Yes, that is exactly what we are doing, going against that, because we disagree that these are good things. > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > Sure you can have your easy mode dungeon. It can come with dungeon rewards while we're at it. You know that abandoned content, with no Raid Specific rewards. > > > > Deal ? > > That's fine, assuming the quantities involved are enough to warrant participation, but it only solves half the problem. You'd then need to figure out an entirely *separate* solution for distributing raid rewards without having to do the current difficulty raids. > > Seems like more work, not less, and I know how much you guys are worried about ANet's workload. > > If you buy a car and then they change theit policy that you can either buy it or build sand castle every day and get it after a year still the car still lost value. Also your reaction show us diference in raiders mentality. You said that reason doesnt matter. For me the reason why is erything. I guess i have to apologise because its hard for me to understand your position. I have aspergers so i have lack of empathy. I understand others if what they do is based on logic (or while angry) and i guess your suggestions are based (even if tiny bit) on passion for the game and I simpy dont get that. My logic dictate to me that either you want to play something and you do or dont want to and then you dont. I ont understand middle ground here. I tried to belive me but i dont get it. Sorry. I have nothing against you. Dont take my reaction as offensive please. I like to understand things. The guess the reason for me to participate in this tpyes of disscusion is that i want to solve mysteries and this is a great one for me. No matter whot you do have fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > The conversion rate from LFR to normal is abyssmal. When the developers tried to increase it with higher difficulty and less loot there was a huge kitten. Remember Cataclysm where the normal raid size from 10-15 Bosses after release got reduced to 7/8 Bosses and world content was dead because they needed the ressources for the LFR introduction? The playerbase never recovered from that content drought. The 'cyclical' playercount during expansions has its root in LFR. People subscribe. play one time LFR and unsubscribe again until the next content patch. There is a reason LFR gets released per wing after the normal release (and it's not because they care about the other raiders). Yes LFR was and still is bad for WoW. > You can argue with Feanor about that, because, by his argument, the fact that LFR is still in WoW and still not abandoned, is a "very hard, rock-solid" evidence that it only benefits the game. > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > You can't remove such a feature after the introduction without upsetting a large part of players. Even if they never wanted it to begin with they will riot if you remove it. Because at this point you actually take content away from them they had before even if they never cared about it before the introduction. > In what way it's different than the raid situation now? > Basically, if Feanor's "argument" is indeed solid, then there's no arguing against LFR being good for WoW. > It's possible that he _is_ wrong, of course, and what the calls an argument isn't really as strong as he claims it to be. > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > Raids are the least updated PvE content. > Fractals might want to have some words with you. So would Festivals. I'm not even going to mention dungeons here. Or guild content. > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > Really? You are comparing a once a year event with raids? > So, when's the world 3? > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > SAB is a festival, not regular PvE content and they said it is highly unlikely we will see ever see world 3 or 4 years ago already. > Exactly. But hey, Raids get even less development time than that! [/sarcasm] > > Maybe want to bring in dungeons too? Content that is not activly developed is a pretty bad strawman argument to prove your point. But I can rephrase it for you. Raids are the least updated PvE content that is currently being worked on. Fractals get updates every other LS patch. Raids took 8 months for Wing 4 and 10 for Wing 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > If you buy a car and then they change theit policy that you can either buy it or build sand castle every day and get it after a year still the car still lost value. Every car halves in value when you drive it off the lot. That doesn't mean you're entitled to a refund. You get the value you get out of it. >Also your reaction show us diference in raiders mentality. You said that reason doesnt matter. For me the reason why is erything. And that's fine, so long as you don't use it to justify keeping things *away* from other players who might not share that mentality. >I guess i have to apologise because its hard for me to understand your position. I have aspergers so i have lack of empathy. I understand others if what they do is based on logic (or while angry) and i guess your suggestions are based (even if tiny bit) on passion for the game and I simpy dont get that. My interest is as much based in logic as your own, just a different direction. You might value a meal based on the price on the menu, I value it based on the flavor. >My logic dictate to me that either you want to play something and you do or dont want to and then you dont. I ont understand middle ground here. I tried to belive me but i dont get it. Sorry. I gave this example well earlier, and I'm not sure you were around to hear it, but it might help to clarify things. Say you like pizza, generally speaking, but do not like anchovies. You go to a new restaurant, it's an Italian place, they have a lot of things on their menu, of all varieties, but you order the pizza. The problem is, the pizza *only* comes with anchovies on it, and this ruins the flavor for you. Even so, you can tell from the rest of the pizza that you'd really enjoy that pizza without the anchovies, the sauce is good, the crust is good, the cheese is good, it's a very well crafted pizza, but you just can't enjoy it with anchovies on it. You also believe that a lot of other people would enjoy that pizza if only they would offer it with no anchovies. Wouldn't it make sense to try to convince the owners that offering the pizza without anchovies would be a good idea? You would get to enjoy what you know would be an enjoyable pizza, one that you could not experience without them offering that option, and you firmly believe that many others would too. Meanwhile, anyone who does enjoy anchovies could continue to get that version. Doesn't that make logical sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > If you buy a car and then they change theit policy that you can either buy it or build sand castle every day and get it after a year still the car still lost value. > > Every car halves in value when you drive it off the lot. That doesn't mean you're entitled to a refund. You get the value you get out of it. > > >Also your reaction show us diference in raiders mentality. You said that reason doesnt matter. For me the reason why is erything. > > And that's fine, so long as you don't use it to justify keeping things *away* from other players who might not share that mentality. > > >I guess i have to apologise because its hard for me to understand your position. I have aspergers so i have lack of empathy. I understand others if what they do is based on logic (or while angry) and i guess your suggestions are based (even if tiny bit) on passion for the game and I simpy dont get that. > > My interest is as much based in logic as your own, just a different direction. You might value a meal based on the price on the menu, I value it based on the flavor. > > >My logic dictate to me that either you want to play something and you do or dont want to and then you dont. I ont understand middle ground here. I tried to belive me but i dont get it. Sorry. > > I gave this example well earlier, and I'm not sure you were around to hear it, but it might help to clarify things. Say you like pizza, generally speaking, but do not like anchovies. You go to a new restaurant, it's an Italian place, they have a lot of things on their menu, of all varieties, but you order the pizza. The problem is, the pizza *only* comes with anchovies on it, and this ruins the flavor for you. Even so, you can tell from the rest of the pizza that you'd really enjoy that pizza without the anchovies, the sauce is good, the crust is good, the cheese is good, it's a very well crafted pizza, but you just can't enjoy it with anchovies on it. You also believe that a lot of other people would enjoy that pizza if only they would offer it with no anchovies. Wouldn't it make sense to try to convince the owners that offering the pizza without anchovies would be a good idea? You would get to enjoy what you know would be an enjoyable pizza, one that you could not experience without them offering that option, and you firmly believe that many others would too. Meanwhile, anyone who does enjoy anchovies could continue to get that version. Doesn't that make logical sense? It does IF the owner decides that he would make more money if he put that option on a menu compered to his expenses. For you the most logical thing is either to eat it as it is or leave for another restaurant. And that is exactly what my point is. From my point of view only thing that makes sance from your part is to create an poll with 4 possible answers. Q: what would you do if we added easymode raids? 1) would still not play them 2) would try that 3) would still play normal mode 4) would stop plaing raids. Everyone vote so they get feedback and they decide if it is worth their investments. Everything you can do. After that disscusing it here is pointless. From my point of view its better to go to another restaurant and not to wait till owner changes a menu. As I said, i am in this disscusion because i like to solve mysteries and human is the greates. Either you are here because you enjoy this disscusion like me or you are still here because you think you need to explain yourself and that doesnt bring you any value. As i see it you stated your oppinion. I respect that. But after that you have 2 options: play raids as they are or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 And since Legendary armor cannot be sold (now) and is not damage over time it doesnt lose value as a car. It loses value slightly until every player who play raids has it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: >It does IF the owner decides that he would make more money if he put that option on a menu compered to his expenses. >For you the most logical thing is either to eat it as it is or leave for another restaurant. Given *only* those two options, sure, but again, my *best* solution is to do what I can to convince them to make a change that would benefit everyone. >And that is exactly what my point is. From my point of view only thing that makes sance from your part is to create an poll with 4 possible answers. The question here is, where to put such a poll? On the raid forum? The results would be skewed heavily towards players who already raid. On the discussion forum? The devs might move the thread. On the reddit? In both the latter cases, the results still tend to skew in favor of raiders, just less so than on the raid forums. The only *accurate* place to put the poll would be in the client itself, randomly sampling at least a few thousand active players and seeing what they thought. There isn't really any useful way to sample "people who don't play but might if this were an option," though. >Everyone vote so they get feedback and they decide if it is worth their investments. Everything you can do. After that disscusing it here is pointless. From my point of view its better to go to another restaurant and not to wait till owner changes a menu. Here's the thing though, you talk like your position is the more logical one, and that my actions are entirely pointless, *and yet,* you continue to discuss the topic too, which, at best, would be even *more* pointless, since if you're right then my efforts are doomed anyway. >And since Legendary armor cannot be sold (now) and is not damage over time it doesnt lose value as a car. It loses value slightly until every player who play raids has it. But again, my point is that most things in life depreciate, most things you can get a better and/or cheaper version of it for doing nothing more than waiting a bit. It's an unreasonable expectation that acquiring a thing means that nobody else will ever acquire it for less, and defining your own accomplishments by the "things" you accumulate, rather than by the effort *you* put into those things, is just setting yourself up for inevitable disappointment. If you feel that other people having easier access to Envoy armor would depreciate its value to you, then I'm sorry, but that in no way justifies not opening up access to it for those who would enjoy having it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > >It does IF the owner decides that he would make more money if he put that option on a menu compered to his expenses. > >For you the most logical thing is either to eat it as it is or leave for another restaurant. > > Given *only* those two options, sure, but again, my *best* solution is to do what I can to convince them to make a change that would benefit everyone. > > >And that is exactly what my point is. From my point of view only thing that makes sance from your part is to create an poll with 4 possible answers. > > The question here is, where to put such a poll? On the raid forum? The results would be skewed heavily towards players who already raid. On the discussion forum? The devs might move the thread. On the reddit? In both the latter cases, the results still tend to skew in favor of raiders, just less so than on the raid forums. The only *accurate* place to put the poll would be in the client itself, randomly sampling at least a few thousand active players and seeing what they thought. There isn't really any useful way to sample "people who don't play but might if this were an option," though. > > >Everyone vote so they get feedback and they decide if it is worth their investments. Everything you can do. After that disscusing it here is pointless. From my point of view its better to go to another restaurant and not to wait till owner changes a menu. > > Here's the thing though, you talk like your position is the more logical one, and that my actions are entirely pointless, *and yet,* you continue to discuss the topic too, which, at best, would be even *more* pointless, since if you're right then my efforts are doomed anyway. > > >And since Legendary armor cannot be sold (now) and is not damage over time it doesnt lose value as a car. It loses value slightly until every player who play raids has it. > > But again, my point is that most things in life depreciate, most things you can get a better and/or cheaper version of it for doing nothing more than waiting a bit. It's an unreasonable expectation that acquiring a thing means that nobody else will ever acquire it for less, and defining your own accomplishments by the "things" you accumulate, rather than by the effort *you* put into those things, is just setting yourself up for inevitable disappointment. If you feel that other people having easier access to Envoy armor would depreciate its value to you, then I'm sorry, but that in no way justifies not opening up access to it for those who would enjoy having it. You cannot get cheaper legendary armor now. I am protecting my investment. And as i said i am particupating in this disscusion because I enjoy it. My goal is to have fun. I dont need to convince anyone because if nothing change i win. Also either you disscuse it here because you enjoy it or you dont and do it only for the profit you get if they change it and that is exactly what you are not willing to do for legendary Armor in raids. If they decide to add your easy raid they can. After that i will adapt or if i no longer have fun i will quit the game. Truth is i dont know if anything will change for me after this change but i am sure nothing will happen if they do nothing. And i am ok with that since now its very enjoyable for me. Your changes can make the game better or worse for me but I dont want to risk it because i have much more to lose then to gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > >It does IF the owner decides that he would make more money if he put that option on a menu compered to his expenses. > >For you the most logical thing is either to eat it as it is or leave for another restaurant. > > Given *only* those two options, sure, but again, my *best* solution is to do what I can to convince them to make a change that would benefit everyone. > > >And that is exactly what my point is. From my point of view only thing that makes sance from your part is to create an poll with 4 possible answers. > > The question here is, where to put such a poll? On the raid forum? The results would be skewed heavily towards players who already raid. On the discussion forum? The devs might move the thread. On the reddit? In both the latter cases, the results still tend to skew in favor of raiders, just less so than on the raid forums. The only *accurate* place to put the poll would be in the client itself, randomly sampling at least a few thousand active players and seeing what they thought. There isn't really any useful way to sample "people who don't play but might if this were an option," though. > > >Everyone vote so they get feedback and they decide if it is worth their investments. Everything you can do. After that disscusing it here is pointless. From my point of view its better to go to another restaurant and not to wait till owner changes a menu. > > Here's the thing though, you talk like your position is the more logical one, and that my actions are entirely pointless, *and yet,* you continue to discuss the topic too, which, at best, would be even *more* pointless, since if you're right then my efforts are doomed anyway. > > >And since Legendary armor cannot be sold (now) and is not damage over time it doesnt lose value as a car. It loses value slightly until every player who play raids has it. > > But again, my point is that most things in life depreciate, most things you can get a better and/or cheaper version of it for doing nothing more than waiting a bit. It's an unreasonable expectation that acquiring a thing means that nobody else will ever acquire it for less, and defining your own accomplishments by the "things" you accumulate, rather than by the effort *you* put into those things, is just setting yourself up for inevitable disappointment. If you feel that other people having easier access to Envoy armor would depreciate its value to you, then I'm sorry, but that in no way justifies not opening up access to it for those who would enjoy having it. And I dont think your actions are pointless but after your first statement you get low value from your time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > You cannot get cheaper legendary armor now. I am protecting my investment. But as you say, you can't sell the armor you have, there is no investment. Whatever sentimental value it may have to you, it has zero commercial value. You should value the experience of working toward it, not the item itself (*unless* you actually value the item itself, which doesn't seem to be the case). >Also either you disscuse it here because you enjoy it or you dont and do it only for the profit you get if they change it and that is exactly what you are not willing to do for legendary Armor in raids. I enjoy this *more* than slamming my head against the current raids, but I *am* hoping to actually achieve a result here. I would prefer to give up this "past time" if it means having easy mode raids become available. >Truth is i dont know if anything will change for me after this change but i am sure nothing will happen if they do nothing. And i am ok with that since now its very enjoyable for me. Your changes can make the game better or worse for me but I dont want to risk it because i have much more to lose then to gain. I can totally understand a fear of change, but does it *have* to be entirely self-absorbed? Can't you take pleasure in *other* players having better options, even at the risk that it might reduce your own quality of life to some minor degree? If you were in a raid group with 7 people who genuinely wanted to be there, and three people who would shift to easy mode in a heartbeat, were it available, wouldn't you *want* them to do so, if that is what would make them happiest? >And I dont think your actions are pointless but after your first statement you get low value from your time Still more productive than failing raid encounters repeatedly until I make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > IT DOES CHANGE IT. It fracture the players that play raids. Some of them (more casual raiders) might go from normal to easy mode so we lose players on normal mode. You're not entitled to those people. If they'd have more fun doing the easy mode, it's _their_ decision to make. Your fun shouldn't depend on having with you players that would rather be somewhere else if they had a choice. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Also every new raider would be at easy lvl It's not like any new raider nowadays is at the experienced level either. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > so some of us would have hard time looking for group that wants to do normal raids but hasnt cleared much. So, you're saying the number of people really interested in raids (the ones Anet made the content for) is too small to support that mode on their own. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Btw why do you want to do raids if you want them easy? I am sorry but i dont get it. Its like if someone wants to do PvP but dont want to fight other players. Personally? I'm in this for shinies. I'd also like to be able to do any of the raid encounters at least once for lore. And as for PvP... well, there's a lot of people farming it for loot as well, if you haven't noticed. Anet put way too much stuff that might interest purely PvE players in there, so that's hardly a surprise. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Also this: > Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™, introduces the ultimate challenge: our first raid, which is made up of three distinct raid wings. Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that's a challenge unlike anything we've previously released in Guild Wars 2. These raids are meant to put you and your teammates to the test and challenge you to grow your skills as Guild Wars 2 players. Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to at endgame—the ultimate test to overcome and defeat > > Notice parts: ultimate challange, grow your skill, challange you, skilled pve players and ultimate test. > Making it easy goes against the idea of raids Again, we're not asking to make _those_ easy. We just want an easier version of them. And again, if you think calling them raids would somehow stain that name, you're free to think up a different label. > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > Fractals get updates every other LS patch. Raids took 8 months for Wing 4 and 10 for Wing 5. Sure. And yet in the same time Anet introduced 5 raid wings, they gave us only 3 new fractals. And remember, that a single wing is bigger contentwise than a single fractal. But yeah, obviously more is less here [/sarcasm] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > Fractals get updates every other LS patch. Raids took 8 months for Wing 4 and 10 for Wing 5. > Sure. And yet in the same time Anet introduced 5 raid wings, they gave us only 3 new fractals. And remember, that a single wing is bigger contentwise than a single fractal. > But yeah, obviously more is less here [/sarcasm] > Molten Boss, Swamp changes. New rewards. Instability changes. We got actually 4 fractals not 3. There were multiple balance changes in different difficulties (but easy mode doesn't take time for balancing, right?) and as many said, difficulty scales are content so we actually got 16 fractals! Updates != new content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > You cannot get cheaper legendary armor now. I am protecting my investment. > > But as you say, you can't sell the armor you have, there is no investment. Whatever sentimental value it may have to you, it has zero commercial value. You should value the experience of working toward it, not the item itself (*unless* you actually value the item itself, which doesn't seem to be the case). > > >Also either you disscuse it here because you enjoy it or you dont and do it only for the profit you get if they change it and that is exactly what you are not willing to do for legendary Armor in raids. > > I enjoy this *more* than slamming my head against the current raids, but I *am* hoping to actually achieve a result here. I would prefer to give up this "past time" if it means having easy mode raids become available. > > >Truth is i dont know if anything will change for me after this change but i am sure nothing will happen if they do nothing. And i am ok with that since now its very enjoyable for me. Your changes can make the game better or worse for me but I dont want to risk it because i have much more to lose then to gain. > > I can totally understand a fear of change, but does it *have* to be entirely self-absorbed? Can't you take pleasure in *other* players having better options, even at the risk that it might reduce your own quality of life to some minor degree? If you were in a raid group with 7 people who genuinely wanted to be there, and three people who would shift to easy mode in a heartbeat, were it available, wouldn't you *want* them to do so, if that is what would make them happiest? > > >And I dont think your actions are pointless but after your first statement you get low value from your time > > Still more productive than failing raid encounters repeatedly until I make it. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > IT DOES CHANGE IT. It fracture the players that play raids. Some of them (more casual raiders) might go from normal to easy mode so we lose players on normal mode. > You're not entitled to those people. If they'd have more fun doing the easy mode, it's _their_ decision to make. Your fun shouldn't depend on having with you players that would rather be somewhere else if they had a choice. > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Also every new raider would be at easy lvl > It's not like any new raider nowadays is at the experienced level either. > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > so some of us would have hard time looking for group that wants to do normal raids but hasnt cleared much. > So, you're saying the number of people really interested in raids (the ones Anet made the content for) is too small to support that mode on their own. > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Btw why do you want to do raids if you want them easy? I am sorry but i dont get it. Its like if someone wants to do PvP but dont want to fight other players. > Personally? I'm in this for shinies. I'd also like to be able to do any of the raid encounters at least once for lore. > And as for PvP... well, there's a lot of people farming it for loot as well, if you haven't noticed. Anet put way too much stuff that might interest purely PvE players in there, so that's hardly a surprise. > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Also this: > > Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™, introduces the ultimate challenge: our first raid, which is made up of three distinct raid wings. Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that's a challenge unlike anything we've previously released in Guild Wars 2. These raids are meant to put you and your teammates to the test and challenge you to grow your skills as Guild Wars 2 players. Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to at endgame—the ultimate test to overcome and defeat > > > > Notice parts: ultimate challange, grow your skill, challange you, skilled pve players and ultimate test. > > Making it easy goes against the idea of raids > Again, we're not asking to make _those_ easy. We just want an easier version of them. And again, if you think calling them raids would somehow stain that name, you're free to think up a different label. > I am not anet employe but i think legendary armor was added to tbe game to give reward to raiders since they couldnt give them enough gold because it would crush the economy. I am for easier raids as i said already here if 1) implementation take minimal time - i suggested to cut boss damage and hp by half. 2) rewards for normal raids are much greater/unique (and dont talk about minis pls) then easy mode - personaly i would give half magnetic shards and lower chance for minies, no ascended drops li or kp. 3) Never ever will any pve balance patch consider easy raids (doesnt matter how op something is there) You have to understand that some players (most?) are driven by rewards and since raids are hardest content reward should also be best. As i said empathy is not my best quality. In my life I am first. I do something for others only if it benefit me (either because it is good for me or because it makes me feel better). If my experiance should be made worse for nothing (no benefit for me) its against my interest and I am against it. Only way i will support easy raids is if i get something from it and that is if more players get to normal raids because of easy raids and for that there needs to be good reward for them too. Also i never said that there is now not enoufh players. I said if there were less then it would be harder to fin a group Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > I am not anet employe but i think legendary armor was added to tbe game to give reward to raiders since they couldnt give them enough gold because it would crush the economy. 1. That's not really an issue. You don't have to reward using liquid gold, you can use items that can be sold for gold instead, which doesn't cause inflation but still gets gold into their hands eventually. 2. If raiders have to be bribed that much to want to raid, maybe. . . they just don't want to raid? 3. They've been discussing Legendary armor since launch, it would have made it into the game by now with or without raids. All raids did is keep it *out* of the hands of non-raiders. >2) rewards for normal raids are much greater/unique (and dont talk about minis pls) then easy mode - personaly i would give half magnetic shards and lower chance for minies, no ascended drops li or kp. Why do you believe that the normal raids are entitled to those rewards, and easier ones are not, considering both would be played by equally valuable customers who are just playing the game how they enjoy playing it? I accept that the harder mode should offer a greater *quantity* of reward per attempt, because it takes more focus, but there's absolutely no justification whatsoever for the loot to be stuff that can't be earned *at all* elsewhere. >3) Never ever will any pve balance patch consider easy raids (doesnt matter how op something is there) I doubt they would anyway, and if they did make any changes, it would be to the content itself, not the characters. >You have to understand that some players (most?) are driven by rewards and since raids are hardest content reward should also be best. Only if it doesn't prevent players who don't want to do that content from getting those rewards. Raiders are not entitled to superior rewards. >As i said empathy is not my best quality. In my life I am first. I do something for others only if it benefit me (either because it is good for me or because it makes me feel better). You might want to be careful with that, what you describe is not a spectrum disorder, it is clinical sociopathy. I do not say that in jest, I do not say it as an insult, I do not say it lightly, that is literally the definition for what *you* are describing. They should not balance the game around that. Nobody should balance a game around that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Only if it doesn't prevent players who don't want to do that content from getting those rewards. Raiders are not entitled to superior rewards. It's only a design philosophy found everywhere in the game. You want Auric weapons? You grind Auric Basin for the Auric Ingots. You want Luminescent Armor? You grind Silverwastes. You want Aurora? You do LS3 maps. Every-fucking-where the "superior" rewards are exclusive and require you to play a very specific content. You expect this to be different for raids? If I may quote Dread Pirate Roberts, get used to disappointment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > Hard-Lock would mean you can never access it. And this is just plain wrong. It just denies you the access to certain groups, not raids in general. It is an almost hard-lock. The majority of groups and raid-guilds have LI/KP-requirements. I already stated that it's understandable why that's the case (the games main-content is too easy, thus people don't learn to carry their own weight. That way though, it's unreasonably hard to simply create an own squad/static, since - having LI/KP as skill-indicator - these will also reflect on that matter. If you want to enjoy the content reasonably, you're in fact hard-locked by the combination of the aforementioned design-choices. > Most guilds need more than 1-3 tries to kill bosses the first time. Yes you need more tries unless you want to get carried. Bit cocky? Cocky? Certainly not. Self-confident? Yes. Like I've said multiple times, I've been playing MMORPGs for more than a decade now. A lot of pve-mechanisms are quite recurring throughout every MMORPG. GW2 certainly hasn't re-invented the wheel and is nothing special in that regard. It's far from being a second Wildstar. Additionaly, I'm "only" playing a dps-class, so the balance-problem in also a factor. A dps-class has it rather easy in raids since most mechanics are handled by Chrono and Druid. Do I like that design-choice? No, I don't. I'd wish that the burded would be equally contributed. It isn't though. I don't need that much tries to internalize mechanics and do reasonable decent damage, being able to carry my own weight. GW2 certainly has a huge glorifying- and self-confidence-problems when it comes to raids. > Legendary armor is also available in PvP and WvW. WvW is (also by game-design) as niche as raids and not everyone likes PvP. PvE is the main-content of GW2, thus it should be possible for everyone to get legendary armor through PvE. It's ok that that requires some skill. It's not ok that the content which holds legendary armor is largely inaccessible for the majority of people. Game-design-wise, that isn't really a good thing. > No they don't. Especially not in WoW where you are already overgeared if you played between two raids, thanks to titanforged. Sure, WoW is the genres behemoth, but it's also just a dime in a dozen. So please stop only using WoW as an example. There are other games that are a lot more coherent and consistent in game-design. > Molten Boss, Swamp changes. New rewards. Instability changes. We got actually 4 fractals not 3. There were multiple balance changes in different difficulties (but easy mode doesn't take time for balancing, right?) and as many said, difficulty scales are content so we actually got 16 fractals! That's some logic you have there. By that logic, W5 alone would consist of six raids (four encounters and two cms). Fact is that raids are actually quite favored by ANet. You have a sh*tload of lore, special skins, miniatures, legendary armor, the legendary ring, etc. locked behind raids. They're also a lot more massive than a single fractal. Raids are also fairly self-sufficient since you do get gold and gear out of them. You even get PoF-stats from HoT-items, which is quite a strong inconsistency compared to the rest of the game. You also seem to forget that raids are niche-content by intention. Why should ANet focus more on raids when content like fractals should be more important since more people do fractals on a daily basis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > I am not anet employe but i think legendary armor was added to tbe game to give reward to raiders since they couldnt give them enough gold because it would crush the economy. > > 1. That's not really an issue. You don't have to reward using liquid gold, you can use items that can be sold for gold instead, which doesn't cause inflation but still gets gold into their hands eventually. > 2. If raiders have to be bribed that much to want to raid, maybe. . . they just don't want to raid? > 3. They've been discussing Legendary armor since launch, it would have made it into the game by now with or without raids. All raids did is keep it *out* of the hands of non-raiders. > > >2) rewards for normal raids are much greater/unique (and dont talk about minis pls) then easy mode - personaly i would give half magnetic shards and lower chance for minies, no ascended drops li or kp. > > Why do you believe that the normal raids are entitled to those rewards, and easier ones are not, considering both would be played by equally valuable customers who are just playing the game how they enjoy playing it? > > I accept that the harder mode should offer a greater *quantity* of reward per attempt, because it takes more focus, but there's absolutely no justification whatsoever for the loot to be stuff that can't be earned *at all* elsewhere. > > >3) Never ever will any pve balance patch consider easy raids (doesnt matter how op something is there) > > I doubt they would anyway, and if they did make any changes, it would be to the content itself, not the characters. > > >You have to understand that some players (most?) are driven by rewards and since raids are hardest content reward should also be best. > > Only if it doesn't prevent players who don't want to do that content from getting those rewards. Raiders are not entitled to superior rewards. > > >As i said empathy is not my best quality. In my life I am first. I do something for others only if it benefit me (either because it is good for me or because it makes me feel better). > > You might want to be careful with that, what you describe is not a spectrum disorder, it is clinical sociopathy. I do not say that in jest, I do not say it as an insult, I do not say it lightly, that is literally the definition for what *you* are describing. They should not balance the game around that. Nobody should balance a game around that. > > > > > As I explained earlier legendaries are part of end game content. If you made them easier to get -> less time/effort to get them. I just played content i enjoyed and bought most of my legendary. Without the time you have to do something specific you can just play the game and one day you have it. Than its no longer end game content. I was never tested for this so it can be possible. If someone wants help i will help him (if i can) as long as he rly want help him, gladly explain things, give free bags to new players... It makes me happy and its an investition to gw2 comunity. If someone want something for free he need to search elsewhere. If someone is rude to me i pay him back the same with joy. If this is sociopathy it will be my new favorite condition i have :-). I dont read minds and i dont know you but have you ever done something for others and get nothing from it? If so i admire you but in my oppinion you are in minority. Maybe I look like terible person but somehow I am popular, have few great friends from childhood and a girlfriend that is somehow still with me so I have to be doing something right. Btw doesnt wvw also have legendary armor? If so isnt legendary armor accesable to you even when you dont play raids? I never expected they would balance around easy raids but wanted to state that so it is complete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 From my point of view you look Like Fractal T1 players (or want to be). You want to jump in fractals when you want to (without need to spend time preparing - ascended armor, study encounters, team composition and so on), go throught it and enjoy teamplay without frustration from constant failure. I CAN GET BEHIND THAT. I would welcome this in raids since after some time some portion of fractal T1 players get to T4. But you cannot get Ad Infinitum nor ascended boxes in T1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > Kinda going a bit extreme here...Tex. Clearly you weren’t reading large chronicle that is this thread. Make a coffee, toast a pop tart, find a comfy seat and have a boo at what most people on our side of the fence, would like to see. Was the quote of most people or of an extreme position by someone who wants to earn "Raid Specific" rewards in any mode of play because that's how they see the game should work ? I've read the thread despite what you believe, there are some reasonable ideas. None of them belong to Ohoni. The wanting to overhaul LFG and Guild tools is something i've long supported. Changing Raids themselves to be something they aren't aimed a demographic that will likely never even do the easy mode is a waste. Changing the reward structure so that people can get Raid items in whereveristan isn't something that anyone regardless of position on the issue should ever entertain because it devalues the argument at large and turns it into a charity project for the person complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynn.1659 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > Kinda going a bit extreme here...Tex. Clearly you weren’t reading large chronicle that is this thread. Make a coffee, toast a pop tart, find a comfy seat and have a boo at what most people on our side of the fence, would like to see. > > Was the quote of most people or of an extreme position by someone who wants to ear "Raid Specific" rewards in any mode of play because that's how they see the game should work ? > > I've read the thread despite what you believe, there are some reasonable ideas. None of them belong to Ohoni. > > The wanting to overhaul LFG and Guild tools is something i've long supported. Changing Raids themselves to be something they aren't aimed a demographic that will likely never even do the easy mode is a waste. Changing the reward structure so that people can get Raid items in whereveristan isn't something that anyone regardless of position on the issue should ever entertain because it devalues the argument at large and turns it into a charity project for the person complaining. > > Easy mode, story mode call it what you want. People will do it once, then come back there to QQ that there is no real loot and never touch it again. Making it is just a dead time investment for anet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinceman.4572 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > Cocky? Certainly not. Self-confident? Yes. Like I've said multiple times, I've been playing MMORPGs for more than a decade now. A lot of pve-mechanisms are quite recurring throughout every MMORPG. GW2 certainly hasn't re-invented the wheel and is nothing special in that regard. It's far from being a second Wildstar. Additionaly, I'm "only" playing a dps-class, so the balance-problem in also a factor. A dps-class has it rather easy in raids since most mechanics are handled by Chrono and Druid. Do I like that design-choice? No, I don't. I'd wish that the burded would be equally contributed. It isn't though. I don't need that much tries to internalize mechanics and do reasonable decent damage, being able to carry my own weight. GW2 certainly has a huge glorifying- and self-confidence-problems when it comes to raids. You and your ability are not the problem. I myself have a readiness of mind I wish others would have only a little bit of it. A lot of players in GW2 know nothing about the class they are actually playing and it doesn't matter to them. They are having fun in the open world, with living story and all the single achievement points Anet is handing out regularly and more. That is totally fine and most of them don't even care about more either. Instanced content is harder - maybe in almost all cases not comparable with the most difficult encounters in other, raid-favored games. But still, you do not walk into dungeons for the first time with different armor stats and some random weapons and have an easy life in there. For t4 fractals you need a little bit more and raids as well. When people asking for kp/li etc. they mostly know that if they don't do it they'll definitely get open world players into their group that neither have appropriate gear or any knowledge about the fights at all. Why do they know that? Well, we had this issue during dungeon peak time (before HoT btw.!) when a lot of players joined groups with requirements they haven't met although most often the only demanded thing was "zerk" gear. Even now, when my static is fine with it we kill some bosses for random players without requirement and we get players that are completely unprepared for raids - speaking of gear, boss mechanics, rotation, adaptation & comprehension, bufffood. If you just want to get bosses down with a pug, which means 10 random players that are not connected to each other at worse, you want to make sure that you can rely on them for the kill. You won't even be able to beat Escort and some other easier bosses like Cairn, MO or Samarog if you just open your group to everyone, maybe you get one lucky try but that's not the usual thing. Of course there are some arrogant players exaggerating too much with their requirements but that's a minority and you'll easily detect them through phrases like "two fails = kick" or similar bs. Not even reasonable veteran raiders will join there so as a beginner you don't want to either. > That's some logic you have there. By that logic, W5 alone would consist of six raids (four encounters and two cms). Fact is that raids are actually quite favored by ANet. You have a sh*tload of lore, special skins, miniatures, legendary armor, the legendary ring, etc. locked behind raids. They're also a lot more massive than a single fractal. Raids are also fairly self-sufficient since you do get gold and gear out of them. You even get PoF-stats from HoT-items, which is quite a strong inconsistency compared to the rest of the game. You also seem to forget that raids are niche-content by intention. Why should ANet focus more on raids when content like fractals should be more important since more people do fractals on a daily basis? Nah, as a veteran fractal player from the start we got big overhauls in fractals since 2015. The only reason we didn't get any new fractal for a long time was the monstrous restructuring and reorganization of the fractal system that came with HoT and still had to be improved afterwards as a result of the abandonment of dungeons. I myself favor fractals over raids and have to admit that we got a lot more love than them. I'm still very surprised that the raid release schedule is so weak. Also, setting up CMs is a lot easier to achieve than tune it down because a cm just adds mechanics on top. They are far from being an own individual encounter themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > Kinda going a bit extreme here...Tex. Clearly you weren’t reading large chronicle that is this thread. Make a coffee, toast a pop tart, find a comfy seat and have a boo at what most people on our side of the fence, would like to see. > > Was the quote of most people or of an extreme position by someone who wants to ear "Raid Specific" rewards in any mode of play because that's how they see the game should work ? > > I've read the thread despite what you believe, there are some reasonable ideas. None of them belong to Ohoni. > > The wanting to overhaul LFG and Guild tools is something i've long supported. Changing Raids themselves to be something they aren't aimed a demographic that will likely never even do the easy mode is a waste. Changing the reward structure so that people can get Raid items in whereveristan isn't something that anyone regardless of position on the issue should ever entertain because it devalues the argument at large and turns it into a charity project for the person complaining. Yeah, but you were screaming about people wanting to log in have all characters in legendary armor automatically and a shit load of gems... for free. That is why I said you were taking it to the extreme. No one said that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Cynn.1659" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > Kinda going a bit extreme here...Tex. Clearly you weren’t reading large chronicle that is this thread. Make a coffee, toast a pop tart, find a comfy seat and have a boo at what most people on our side of the fence, would like to see. > > > > Was the quote of most people or of an extreme position by someone who wants to ear "Raid Specific" rewards in any mode of play because that's how they see the game should work ? > > > > I've read the thread despite what you believe, there are some reasonable ideas. None of them belong to Ohoni. > > > > The wanting to overhaul LFG and Guild tools is something i've long supported. Changing Raids themselves to be something they aren't aimed a demographic that will likely never even do the easy mode is a waste. Changing the reward structure so that people can get Raid items in whereveristan isn't something that anyone regardless of position on the issue should ever entertain because it devalues the argument at large and turns it into a charity project for the person complaining. > > > > > > Easy mode, story mode call it what you want. People will do it once, then come back there to QQ that there is no real loot and never touch it again. Making it is just a dead time investment for anet. That’s why you would have to provide raid loot to the easy mode, however at a declined pace, which is what people here have been saying not walking into easy mode raids and getting an in game mail with a bunch of sets of legendary armor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 19, 2018 Author Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > >It does IF the owner decides that he would make more money if he put that option on a menu compered to his expenses. > > >For you the most logical thing is either to eat it as it is or leave for another restaurant. > > > > Given *only* those two options, sure, but again, my *best* solution is to do what I can to convince them to make a change that would benefit everyone. > > > > >And that is exactly what my point is. From my point of view only thing that makes sance from your part is to create an poll with 4 possible answers. > > > > The question here is, where to put such a poll? On the raid forum? The results would be skewed heavily towards players who already raid. On the discussion forum? The devs might move the thread. On the reddit? In both the latter cases, the results still tend to skew in favor of raiders, just less so than on the raid forums. The only *accurate* place to put the poll would be in the client itself, randomly sampling at least a few thousand active players and seeing what they thought. There isn't really any useful way to sample "people who don't play but might if this were an option," though. > > > > >Everyone vote so they get feedback and they decide if it is worth their investments. Everything you can do. After that disscusing it here is pointless. From my point of view its better to go to another restaurant and not to wait till owner changes a menu. > > > > Here's the thing though, you talk like your position is the more logical one, and that my actions are entirely pointless, *and yet,* you continue to discuss the topic too, which, at best, would be even *more* pointless, since if you're right then my efforts are doomed anyway. > > > > >And since Legendary armor cannot be sold (now) and is not damage over time it doesnt lose value as a car. It loses value slightly until every player who play raids has it. > > > > But again, my point is that most things in life depreciate, most things you can get a better and/or cheaper version of it for doing nothing more than waiting a bit. It's an unreasonable expectation that acquiring a thing means that nobody else will ever acquire it for less, and defining your own accomplishments by the "things" you accumulate, rather than by the effort *you* put into those things, is just setting yourself up for inevitable disappointment. If you feel that other people having easier access to Envoy armor would depreciate its value to you, then I'm sorry, but that in no way justifies not opening up access to it for those who would enjoy having it. > > You cannot get cheaper legendary armor now. I am protecting my investment. > > And as i said i am particupating in this disscusion because I enjoy it. My goal is to have fun. I dont need to convince anyone because if nothing change i win. > > Also either you disscuse it here because you enjoy it or you dont and do it only for the profit you get if they change it and that is exactly what you are not willing to do for legendary Armor in raids. > > If they decide to add your easy raid they can. After that i will adapt or if i no longer have fun i will quit the game. > Truth is i dont know if anything will change for me after this change but i am sure nothing will happen if they do nothing. And i am ok with that since now its very enjoyable for me. Your changes can make the game better or worse for me but I dont want to risk it because i have much more to lose then to gain. What investment? You can't sell legendary armor, so why do you care if it's easier for others to get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Cynn.1659" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > Kinda going a bit extreme here...Tex. Clearly you weren’t reading large chronicle that is this thread. Make a coffee, toast a pop tart, find a comfy seat and have a boo at what most people on our side of the fence, would like to see. > > > > > > Was the quote of most people or of an extreme position by someone who wants to ear "Raid Specific" rewards in any mode of play because that's how they see the game should work ? > > > > > > I've read the thread despite what you believe, there are some reasonable ideas. None of them belong to Ohoni. > > > > > > The wanting to overhaul LFG and Guild tools is something i've long supported. Changing Raids themselves to be something they aren't aimed a demographic that will likely never even do the easy mode is a waste. Changing the reward structure so that people can get Raid items in whereveristan isn't something that anyone regardless of position on the issue should ever entertain because it devalues the argument at large and turns it into a charity project for the person complaining. > > > > > > > > > > Easy mode, story mode call it what you want. People will do it once, then come back there to QQ that there is no real loot and never touch it again. Making it is just a dead time investment for anet. > > That’s why you would have to provide raid loot to the easy mode, however at a declined pace, which is what people here have been saying not walking into easy mode raids and getting an in game mail with a bunch of sets of legendary armor... It ends up the same. You still want to get the highest reward in the game for basically no other effort than logging in. It can't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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