Please Overhaul Raids.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

>Pls understand this is not an opinion, its a fact. Pretty much, all raid encounters, can be pugged.

 

In theory, just as many if not all can be beaten in all greens, or with very poor team comps, etc. But the *potential* state of them doesn't seem to mesh with the *practical* experiences of the average player. If you want to engage in semantics about "they can be pugged," I have no interest in that waste of time. The point here is that they cannot be pugged *conveniently enough* for many players. You don't have to *care,* but you can't actually dispute that, because you have no control over that reality. When people say "they want to be able to pug it," they mean THEMSELVES, not whether *some other* people are capable of it.

 

 

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

For me the biggest problem with Raids is accessibility, and this is a problem created through a number of issues that collectively make Raids seem very intimidating or unapproachable for many players. For Raids to become more accessible (and note, more accessible doesn't automatically mean "easier" in this context), I think a few features could be implemented.

 

1: Quality of life improvements to how Raid groups are formed. The effort of creating or joining a group, especially for new players or players who are not yet part of organized groups or raiding guilds, is often enough of a hurdle on its own to put many players off the entire experience right from the get go.

 

2: A practice mode which allows players to learn the mechanics for different bosses in a "consequence free" environment. They could make it so you can spawn different encounters, and set how much % life and damage they have, so you can practice the encounter scaled down, and then scale up the difficulty as you get better at it, until you're doing it at 100%. Practice mode would not give any rewards, it's purely for players new to raids to prepare themselves for groups, which would benefit both new players, and more experienced players (the latter would have more experienced players joining their groups, rather than less experienced players, or none at all).

 

3: 5 player raids. This would be raids scaled for 5 player groups. The overall difficulty would remain the same (but scaled for 5 players), but the main benefit would be for players who don't have the time to form bigger groups, and who know a few odd people who can join quickly.

 

4: Community training mode: Introduce a daily/weekly reward for experienced raiders who create a squad and take less experienced players into a training mode. The idea is for the more experienced player to explain the mechanics for encounters and to help less experienced players understand the builds and tactics best needed to overcome them. If they complete the training encounter scaled at 100%, the tagged player gets a reward for their efforts. They could introduce a raid mastery for this, so that only players who have completed proper raids, and who have upgraded the mastery are eligible for the daily/weekly reward. This could also have a separate lfg section to make it easier for players to find training sessions.

 

These are just some ideas that I think would help make raids more approachable for new players, without actually changing their difficulty and the prestige some players attach to it.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >That's how it should be - content becoming easier as you progress with your skill and understanding, not content being trivial from the very start like the rest of the game.

>

> Again, if that's what you want, you've already got the mode for that. Now we're talking about what to do for the people who would disagree with that opinion.

 

Again, that's what matters. Because that's what raids are *intended* to be - give people like me something to do. You have *the rest of the fucking game* suited to your standards.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> For me the biggest problem with Raids is accessibility, and this is a problem created through a number of issues that collectively make Raids seem very intimidating or unapproachable for many players. For Raids to become more accessible (and note, more accessible doesn't automatically mean "easier" in this context), I think a few features could be implemented.

>

> 1: Quality of life improvements to how Raid groups are formed. The effort of creating or joining a group, especially for new players or players who are not yet part of organized groups or raiding guilds, is often enough of a hurdle on its own to put many players off the entire experience right from the get go.

>

> 2: A practice mode which allows players to learn the mechanics for different bosses in a "consequence free" environment. They could make it so you can spawn different encounters, and set how much % life and damage they have, so you can practice the encounter scaled down, and then scale up the difficulty as you get better at it, until you're doing it at 100%. Practice mode would not give any rewards, it's purely for players new to raids to prepare themselves for groups, which would benefit both new players, and more experienced players (the latter would have more experienced players joining their groups, rather than less experienced players, or none at all).

>

> 3: 5 player raids. This would be raids scaled for 5 player groups. The overall difficulty would remain the same (but scaled for 5 players), but the main benefit would be for players who don't have the time to form bigger groups, and who know a few odd people who can join quickly.

>

> 4: Community training mode: Introduce a daily/weekly reward for experienced raiders who create a squad and take less experienced players into a training mode. The idea is for the more experienced player to explain the mechanics for encounters and to help less experienced players understand the builds and tactics best needed to overcome them. If they complete the training encounter scaled at 100%, the tagged player gets a reward for their efforts. They could introduce a raid mastery for this, so that only players who have completed proper raids, and who have upgraded the mastery are eligible for the daily/weekly reward. This could also have a separate lfg section to make it easier for players to find training sessions.

>

> These are just some ideas that I think would help make raids more approachable for new players, without actually changing their difficulty and the prestige some players attach to it.

 

These are good suggestions, I'm not a fan of training raids, but I can see how others might benefit from it.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

>1: Quality of life improvements to how Raid groups are formed. The effort of creating or joining a group, especially for new players or players who are not yet part of organized groups or raiding guilds, is often enough of a hurdle on its own to put many players off the entire experience right from the get go.

 

This would be hard to do while keeping the same difficulty. You could make it easier to "form a group" but if the difficulty remained the same, then the easier a group got formed, the more likely it would be to fail, wasting everyone's time.

 

>2: A practice mode which allows players to learn the mechanics for different bosses in a "consequence free" environment. They could make it so you can spawn different encounters, and set how much % life and damage they have, so you can practice the encounter scaled down, and then scale up the difficulty as you get better at it, until you're doing it at 100%. Practice mode would not give any rewards, it's purely for players new to raids to prepare themselves for groups, which would benefit both new players, and more experienced players (the latter would have more experienced players joining their groups, rather than less experienced players, or none at all).

 

This is probably a nice idea, but most of the people turned off from raiding are those who don't *want* to train for them, who want to be able to just tackle them head-on and have reasonable odds of succeeding, like the rest of the content in the game. This would not really benefit people who don't currently raid, so much as that it would allow hardcore raiders to refine their edgier strategies.

 

>3: 5 player raids. This would be raids scaled for 5 player groups. The overall difficulty would remain the same (but scaled for 5 players), but the main benefit would be for players who don't have the time to form bigger groups, and who know a few odd people who can join quickly.

 

This would be a lot harder to implement than any "easy mode" raid, and likely less people would benefit from it.

 

>4: Community training mode: Introduce a daily/weekly reward for experienced raiders who create a squad and take less experienced players into a training mode. The idea is for the more experienced player to explain the mechanics for encounters and to help less experienced players understand the builds and tactics best needed to overcome them. If they complete the training encounter scaled at 100%, the tagged player gets a reward for their efforts. They could introduce a raid mastery for this, so that only players who have completed proper raids, and who have upgraded the mastery are eligible for the daily/weekly reward. This could also have a separate lfg section to make it easier for players to find training sessions.

 

This seems more like a way to offer more rewards to players that already raid than it is of any benefit to other players. Again, non-raiders don't need or want training, they just want completions. Goals need to be directed toward that to make any difference. I think your heart is in the right place here, but you need to put yourself in those players' shoes, rather than just assuming they are just like you.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > >That's how it should be - content becoming easier as you progress with your skill and understanding, not content being trivial from the very start like the rest of the game.

> >

> > Again, if that's what you want, you've already got the mode for that. Now we're talking about what to do for the people who would disagree with that opinion.

>

> Again, that's what matters. Because that's what raids are *intended* to be - give people like me something to do. You have *the rest of the kitten game* suited to your standards.

 

And again, just because you feel they were intended entirely for your personal benefit doesn't mean that it cannot be expanded so that other players can enjoy it too. This isn't your own personal clubhouse.

 

 

[Amineo.8951]

I still haven't beaten SH and Dhuum yet after 5 months and I have full Legendary + 300LI, but then I'm in a hiatus because there's nothing interesting to do atm and there are better games, Monster Hunter World for example delivers content every month and it's not even an MMO, the research and MM options ridicule GW2 even.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

 

> This would be hard to do while keeping the same difficulty. You could make it easier to "form a group" but if the difficulty remained the same, then the easier a group got formed, the more likely it would be to fail, wasting everyone's time.

 

But if you're forming pug groups, that would already be the case regardless. Just because it takes longer to form a group, that doesn't mean its automatically more likely to succeed. As it is, organized groups probably don't have any particular problem with the group forming hurdle to begin with, because they are likely part of a community or guild that is doing raid content regularly (this is mostly aimed at players new to Raids, or looking at getting into Raids, but who feel overwhelmed by the process).

 

> This is probably a nice idea, but most of the people turned off from raiding are those who don't *want* to train for them, who want to be able to just tackle them head-on and have reasonable odds of succeeding, like the rest of the content in the game. This would not really benefit people who don't currently raid, so much as that it would allow hardcore raiders to refine their edgier strategies.

 

Of course you'd get the people who just want to jump in and tackle the content, but those people are probably raiding already. It's the "unsure" people I am targeting here, the ones who want to Raid but feel like they'll mess up and cause issues, and subsequently be kicked from a group. I'm sure some players would love to be able to prepare for an encounter, so that they feel useful when they join a group, or at least don't feel totally lost or incompetent. One thing I can say is that people can sometimes feel more pressured by their expectations of how others will treat them, than they would be just by the content itself, so creating a more streamlined integration that gives them an opportunity to feel prepared and thus empowered can help alleviate this pressure.

 

> This would be a lot harder to implement than any "easy mode" raid, and likely less people would benefit from it.

 

Indeed, out of all my suggestions, this was the one I felt was probably least likely to happen, more for logistical reasons than anything else.

 

> This seems more like a way to offer more rewards to players that already raid than it is of any benefit to other players. Again, non-raiders don't need or want training, they just want completions. Goals need to be directed toward that to make any difference. I think your heart is in the right place here, but you need to put yourself in those players' shoes, rather than just assuming they are just like you.

 

My suggestions are based on feedback I've read on these forums, and I've seen plenty of requests for a training mode in Raids, or for easier practice modes that offer less rewards. So, to put it bluntly, I'm not "making assumptions", as you put it, I'm observing what has been said and I am giving feedback based on that. You also can't assume that all players live up to your own perceptions on what you think they are like. Saying that raiders don't want training and just want completions is just as much of an assumption as any, especially if it isn't backed up by data or facts. The more likely and realistic answer is that players are a mix of these kinds of individuals, some who want the easy way out, some who are willing to jump straight into the fire no matter how hot it is, and then some who are willing to work for what they get so long as the content is accessible enough to partake in.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

>But if you're forming pug groups, that would already be the case regardless. Just because it takes longer to form a group, that doesn't mean its automatically more likely to succeed.

 

Exactly, and that's why we need optional modes that would be more likely to succeed with pugs than the current versions offer.

 

>Of course you'd get the people who just want to jump in and tackle the content, but those people are probably raiding already.

 

No, those people suit raiding a year ago because they jumped in, tackled it head on, died, repeated a few times, kept dying, and decided the mode was junk and left. The important part is to be able to jump in and *succeed.*

 

>It's the "unsure" people I am targeting here, the ones who want to Raid but feel like they'll mess up and cause issues, and subsequently be kicked from a group. I'm sure some players would love to be able to prepare for an encounter, so that they feel useful when they join a group, or at least don't feel totally lost or incompetent.

 

I feel like "training raids" already fill this function.

 

>One thing I can say is that people can sometimes feel more pressured by their expectations of how others will treat them, than they would be just by the content itself, so creating a more streamlined integration that gives them an opportunity to feel prepared and thus empowered can help alleviate this pressure.

 

Only if it also provides them with Ascended armor and 150LI so they won't be immediately kicked.

 

> Saying that raiders don't want training and just want completions is just as much of an assumption as any, especially if it isn't backed up by data or facts.

 

I said that *non*-raiders want those things. The raiders do like their training runs, but they're already raiding and don't really need anything new. It's the non-raiders that are being under-served by the current options.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> I said that *non*-raiders want those things. The raiders do like their training runs, but they're already raiding and don't really need anything new. It's the non-raiders that are being under-served by the current options.

 

And my suggestions were aimed at assisting current non-raiders who want to get into raids (not the ones who have no interest at all). The context in which I was referring to them as raiders was under a hypothetical situation where they'd get into raids through these options suggested (in which case, they wouldn't be non-raiders anymore). Keep in mind that for some people, the only line separating them from being a non-raider to being a raider is that proverbial wall of inaccessibility.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > I said that *non*-raiders want those things. The raiders do like their training runs, but they're already raiding and don't really need anything new. It's the non-raiders that are being under-served by the current options.

>

> And my suggestions were aimed at assisting current non-raiders who want to get into raids (not the ones who have no interest at all). The context in which I was referring to them as raiders was under a hypothetical situation where they'd get into raids through these options suggested (in which case, they wouldn't be non-raiders anymore). Keep in mind that for some people, the only line separating them from being a non-raider to being a raider is that proverbial wall of inaccessibility.

 

I just believe that by this point, most people who ever will cross that line, already had (aside from the trickle of completely new players).

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > >That's how it should be - content becoming easier as you progress with your skill and understanding, not content being trivial from the very start like the rest of the game.

> > >

> > > Again, if that's what you want, you've already got the mode for that. Now we're talking about what to do for the people who would disagree with that opinion.

> >

> > Again, that's what matters. Because that's what raids are *intended* to be - give people like me something to do. You have *the rest of the kitten game* suited to your standards.

>

> And again, just because you feel they were intended entirely for your personal benefit doesn't mean that it cannot be expanded so that other players can enjoy it too. This isn't your own personal clubhouse.

>

>

 

Sounds very convincing from someone who can't possibly accept the idea of something in existence not suited to his personal benefits.

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

Guild Wars 2 is a very casual MMO. However, many people still wanted challenging end game PvE content and raids were made to fill that desire. Raids are meant to be challenging and making them “easier” so casual players can brain—dead carry themselves through them should not happen. That is not what they were intended to be used for. If finding a group it so arduous to you and you don’t feel confident just jumping in, there are many groups that are open to help. Places like Raiders Inn (NA) and Crossroad Inn (EU) Discord’s are more than open to train new people on how to raid. Furthermore, if your worried about raids themselves being too difficult, many of them are easily doable by new groups. Escort, and most of W4 are easily doable by groups with new people.

[Cerioth.7062]

I have been casually training my guildies to do raids. We usually have 3-6 guildies in a group, rest are pugged. Most of the time we end up pugging both mesmers and druids/healers/supports. We do our raids silently and our pug is titled as "casual VG run / casual Cairn run / casual MO run" etc.

 

We have cleared Cairn, MO, Samarog, VG, Escort and Gorseval in 1-3 attempts with these groups. Silently. No crazy requirements. We have not had full meta comp - in fact we often have oddities like power reaper and what not but we all make sure that we have decent enough dps for clearing our encounters. People I run with do not run tier 4 fractals. They do not get hard carried either. We have not tackled on harder bosses yet, aside from Deimos where we got him fairly low though originally we werent planning to even go poke him. :D

 

So I'd say raids are absolutely puggable and quite casual indeed. Just relax, command your own groups, invite a couple friends if you like.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> So I'd say raids are absolutely puggable and quite casual indeed. Just relax, command your own groups, invite a couple friends if you like.

 

But sounds like effort. Complaining on forums is easier.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > I said that *non*-raiders want those things. The raiders do like their training runs, but they're already raiding and don't really need anything new. It's the non-raiders that are being under-served by the current options.

> >

> > And my suggestions were aimed at assisting current non-raiders who want to get into raids (not the ones who have no interest at all). The context in which I was referring to them as raiders was under a hypothetical situation where they'd get into raids through these options suggested (in which case, they wouldn't be non-raiders anymore). Keep in mind that for some people, the only line separating them from being a non-raider to being a raider is that proverbial wall of inaccessibility.

>

> I just believe that by this point, most people who ever will cross that line, already had (aside from the trickle of completely new players).

 

I am doing training runs for 3 months and every week there is new player that want to start with raids.

 

My friend started playing before hot and he wants to try it now.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > So I'd say raids are absolutely puggable and quite casual indeed. Just relax, command your own groups, invite a couple friends if you like.

>

> But sounds like effort. Complaining on forums is easier.

 

Same old raider rhetoric, you fail to understand that the issue is the _style_ of instance the current raiding represents, ALL other AAA mmorpg and raiding communities have accepted this and moved on, they get what is good for the game, not just personal needs by a minority. The majority are not interested in the wipe/learn a pattern/wipe/learn a pattern style of instance.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Sounds very convincing from someone who can't possibly accept the idea of something in existence not suited to his personal benefits.

 

I've repeatedly said that I have no problem with hard mode raids continuing to exist. I just want an easy mode *in addition to that.*

 

> @"AlexndrTheGreat.8310" said:

> Guild Wars 2 is a very casual MMO. However, many people still wanted challenging end game PvE content and raids were made to fill that desire. Raids are meant to be challenging and making them “easier” so casual players can brain—dead carry themselves through them should not happen. That is not what they were intended to be used for.

 

One could say that GW2 was not made for people who like challenging end game PvE, and yet players still demanded it and that's why raids were created. If players see a gap in that which they'd like to see filled, then players have every justification to ask for that solution. If easy mode is not for you, nobody is forcing you to play it.

 

> If finding a group it so arduous to you and you don’t feel confident just jumping in, there are many groups that are open to help.

 

That is not what we're asking for. We don't want help finding a place in the existing raids, because the existing raids will never work for us. We're requesting an alternative version of them, end of story.

 

 

 

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > So I'd say raids are absolutely puggable and quite casual indeed. Just relax, command your own groups, invite a couple friends if you like.

>

> But sounds like effort. Complaining on forums is easier.

 

And yet here you are Feanor... a bit like the pot calling the kettle black...

[Henry.5713]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > So I'd say raids are absolutely puggable and quite casual indeed. Just relax, command your own groups, invite a couple friends if you like.

> >

> > But sounds like effort. Complaining on forums is easier.

>

> And yet here you are Feanor... a bit like the pot calling the kettle black...

 

Isn't more like he is here because he got nothing to do after consistently clearing the raids?

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > > So I'd say raids are absolutely puggable and quite casual indeed. Just relax, command your own groups, invite a couple friends if you like.

> > >

> > > But sounds like effort. Complaining on forums is easier.

> >

> > And yet here you are Feanor... a bit like the pot calling the kettle black...

>

> Isn't more like he is here because he got nothing to do after consistently clearing the raids?

 

I guess?

[Henry.5713]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > > > So I'd say raids are absolutely puggable and quite casual indeed. Just relax, command your own groups, invite a couple friends if you like.

> > > >

> > > > But sounds like effort. Complaining on forums is easier.

> > >

> > > And yet here you are Feanor... a bit like the pot calling the kettle black...

> >

> > Isn't more like he is here because he got nothing to do after consistently clearing the raids?

>

> I guess?

 

Yes, seems so.

[Henry.5713]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > I said that *non*-raiders want those things. The raiders do like their training runs, but they're already raiding and don't really need anything new. It's the non-raiders that are being under-served by the current options.

> >

> > And my suggestions were aimed at assisting current non-raiders who want to get into raids (not the ones who have no interest at all). The context in which I was referring to them as raiders was under a hypothetical situation where they'd get into raids through these options suggested (in which case, they wouldn't be non-raiders anymore). Keep in mind that for some people, the only line separating them from being a non-raider to being a raider is that proverbial wall of inaccessibility.

>

> I just believe that by this point, most people who ever will cross that line, already had (aside from the trickle of completely new players).

 

You'd know about the wide range of experienced players still getting into raids if you actually were a part of the commmunity or at least checked the training guilds.

There are at least twenty veterans like that in just one small to medium guild of mine. Most of them have played for years without ever touching raids or even Fractals. And all they needed was a little nudge to make them leave their own comfort zone and cross that line.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > So I'd say raids are absolutely puggable and quite casual indeed. Just relax, command your own groups, invite a couple friends if you like.

> >

> > But sounds like effort. Complaining on forums is easier.

>

> Same old raider rhetoric, you fail to understand that the issue is the _style_ of instance the current raiding represents, ALL other AAA mmorpg and raiding communities have accepted this and moved on, they get what is good for the game, not just personal needs by a minority. The majority are not interested in the wipe/learn a pattern/wipe/learn a pattern style of instance.

 

And that's fine. The raids are created for those interested. And that's also fine. It's called "diversity". *This* is good for the game. Because it doesn't offer a binary "eiter-or" choice. It gives both groups something to enjoy, as opposed to giving just one of them. And again, what *this* game offers to its casual playerbase is **vastly** superior in quantity.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > > So I'd say raids are absolutely puggable and quite casual indeed. Just relax, command your own groups, invite a couple friends if you like.

> > >

> > > But sounds like effort. Complaining on forums is easier.

> >

> > Same old raider rhetoric, you fail to understand that the issue is the _style_ of instance the current raiding represents, ALL other AAA mmorpg and raiding communities have accepted this and moved on, they get what is good for the game, not just personal needs by a minority. The majority are not interested in the wipe/learn a pattern/wipe/learn a pattern style of instance.

>

> And that's fine. The raids are created for those interested. And that's also fine. It's called "diversity". *This* is good for the game. Because it doesn't offer a binary "eiter-or" choice. It gives both groups something to enjoy, as opposed to giving just one of them. And again, what *this* game offers to its casual playerbase is **vastly** superior in quantity.

 

Huh? But that's the problem, isn't it?

 

The open-world-content feels rather bland. Many people are complaining that it's only just getting the AP out of each episode and that's it. It kinda feels like gobbling down bad trash-food all the day since the content isn't really engaging. I mean, you really can't fail anything if you have some sort of pulse and basic brain-functions working. All it comes down to is that quantity doesn't equal quality. At least raids are somewhat engaging since you can't do them brain-afk. It's just the accessibility-problem that needs to be solved. Some more publicity in form of a guild-browser would be nice. Some other form of skill-indicator is also necessary since the LI-requirements lately are pure bullsh*t. An obvious solution would be a cooperation between ANet, ArcDPS and Raidar of course, making DPS-logs public so people can browse through them if the idividual players allows that. Then there needs to be some more class-balance. Increase the target-cap of Chronos boons up to ten and give that specialization the same treatment as druid, nerf boons in general so it comes more down to the tank/heal-roles to make alternatives to Chrono and Druid more attractive, rework conditions or the concepts involving them so you actually can compete with zerker-classes, rework Elementalist somewhat so it's not that grossly strong. Stuff like that would be nice. YMMV of course.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > > So I'd say raids are absolutely puggable and quite casual indeed. Just relax, command your own groups, invite a couple friends if you like.

> > >

> > > But sounds like effort. Complaining on forums is easier.

> >

> > Same old raider rhetoric, you fail to understand that the issue is the _style_ of instance the current raiding represents, ALL other AAA mmorpg and raiding communities have accepted this and moved on, they get what is good for the game, not just personal needs by a minority. The majority are not interested in the wipe/learn a pattern/wipe/learn a pattern style of instance.

>

> And that's fine. The raids are created for those interested. And that's also fine. It's called "diversity". *This* is good for the game. Because it doesn't offer a binary "eiter-or" choice. It gives both groups something to enjoy, as opposed to giving just one of them. And again, what *this* game offers to its casual playerbase is **vastly** superior in quantity.

 

So then what is the argument against offering the same hand to players who would enjoy raids if they weren't so cutthroat?