Ohoni.6057 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"Cerioth.7062" said: >The raiders would be unsatisfied with easy mode raids because it would be harmful to the raid scene. This would mean the following things: There is nothing about an easy mode that could take anything away from raiders that raiders are entitled to have. It might reduce the number of people playing the current raids. **Raiders are not entitled to have access to those players.** It might reduce the exclusivity of their current rewards. **Raiders are not entitled to having exclusivity to those rewards.** If easy mode raids makes the game more fun to play for the people who participate in it, then that completely negates any imagined "harm" their existence might cause to raiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > >Realistically speaking everyone are not going to like everything. Your argument can be flipped right back at you - what if the current raid community does not like the approach YOU want to take? > > > > The raid community isn't really relevant here. They already have the mode they want, they are covered. This is about closing a gap, the only people who matter are those who would fit into that gap, the players not currently raiding. If raiders are unsatisfied with the version they have, then that would be a separate conversation to have. > > The raiders would be unsatisfied with easy mode raids because it would be harmful to the raid scene. This would mean the following things: > > 1. The fact that raids already are split into different difficulty levels. Making an easy mode out of escort will never be on the same level with easy mode Matthias. > 2. Growing the raiding scene. This is an issue if you do not want to make GW2 into a raid-centric game like many other MMOs. This is not that MMO and I hope it never will be. If you grow the raiding scene, the devs have to work harder in order to produce both normal and easy mode raids, then potentially challenge motes on top of that. This means that we are either waiting longer for each wing (which is currently an issue for the raiding community) or they have to dedicate more devs into raiding which takes away from other things in the game. > 3. Again, MANY PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO RAID EVEN IF EASY MODE EXISTED, period. You could be spending all that work on enhancing other things, such as the fractals or even revamping the dungeons instead. The payoff is not as big as you think it will be. > > You can choose to adapt or you can choose to stick to only certain game modes and thus not being able to acquire everything. That is your own choice. You could choose to learn raids, or pay your way through them. You have the options, you are just not utilizing them. And that is on you, not on the devs. nonsense, a tiny tiny proportion of the player base plays raids in GW2, theres nothing to lose. clearly in GW1 and all the other AAA mmorpg the casual loves casual raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > >Realistically speaking everyone are not going to like everything. Your argument can be flipped right back at you - what if the current raid community does not like the approach YOU want to take? > > > > The raid community isn't really relevant here. They already have the mode they want, they are covered. This is about closing a gap, the only people who matter are those who would fit into that gap, the players not currently raiding. If raiders are unsatisfied with the version they have, then that would be a separate conversation to have. > > The raiders would be unsatisfied with easy mode raids because it would be harmful to the raid scene. This would mean the following things: > > 1. The fact that raids already are split into different difficulty levels. Making an easy mode out of escort will never be on the same level with easy mode Matthias. > 2. Growing the raiding scene. This is an issue if you do not want to make GW2 into a raid-centric game like many other MMOs. This is not that MMO and I hope it never will be. If you grow the raiding scene, the devs have to work harder in order to produce both normal and easy mode raids, then potentially challenge motes on top of that. This means that we are either waiting longer for each wing (which is currently an issue for the raiding community) or they have to dedicate more devs into raiding which takes away from other things in the game. > 3. Again, MANY PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO RAID EVEN IF EASY MODE EXISTED, period. You could be spending all that work on enhancing other things, such as the fractals or even revamping the dungeons instead. The payoff is not as big as you think it will be. > > You can choose to adapt or you can choose to stick to only certain game modes and thus not being able to acquire everything. That is your own choice. You could choose to learn raids, or pay your way through them. You have the options, you are just not utilizing them. And that is on you, not on the devs. Ohoni, I applaud your effort, I really do, but we are better putting effort in getting Legendary Armor in something like fractals, because we will never get it here, I’ve come to terms with that. Having a discussion here is like talking to a stone wall. Cold and unmovable. It’s one of those, “let the baby have its bottle” moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > > >Realistically speaking everyone are not going to like everything. Your argument can be flipped right back at you - what if the current raid community does not like the approach YOU want to take? > > > > > > The raid community isn't really relevant here. They already have the mode they want, they are covered. This is about closing a gap, the only people who matter are those who would fit into that gap, the players not currently raiding. If raiders are unsatisfied with the version they have, then that would be a separate conversation to have. > > > > The raiders would be unsatisfied with easy mode raids because it would be harmful to the raid scene. This would mean the following things: > > > > 1. The fact that raids already are split into different difficulty levels. Making an easy mode out of escort will never be on the same level with easy mode Matthias. > > 2. Growing the raiding scene. This is an issue if you do not want to make GW2 into a raid-centric game like many other MMOs. This is not that MMO and I hope it never will be. If you grow the raiding scene, the devs have to work harder in order to produce both normal and easy mode raids, then potentially challenge motes on top of that. This means that we are either waiting longer for each wing (which is currently an issue for the raiding community) or they have to dedicate more devs into raiding which takes away from other things in the game. > > 3. Again, MANY PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO RAID EVEN IF EASY MODE EXISTED, period. You could be spending all that work on enhancing other things, such as the fractals or even revamping the dungeons instead. The payoff is not as big as you think it will be. > > > > You can choose to adapt or you can choose to stick to only certain game modes and thus not being able to acquire everything. That is your own choice. You could choose to learn raids, or pay your way through them. You have the options, you are just not utilizing them. And that is on you, not on the devs. > > Ohoni, I applaud your effort, I really do, but we are better putting effort in getting Legendary Armor in something like fractals, because we will never get it here, I’ve come to terms with that. > > Having a discussion here is like talking to a stone wall. Cold and unmovable. It’s one of those, “let the baby have its bottle” moments. I think raiders feel the same about people like Ohoni. It's like ok, whatever, this is a completely useless thread. Stop repeating the same things 29483858 times, we'll never agree with you and you will never agree with us. The devs have already all our reasons, just let them decide and work. Nothing more to do here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerioth.7062 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > >The raiders would be unsatisfied with easy mode raids because it would be harmful to the raid scene. This would mean the following things: > > There is nothing about an easy mode that could take anything away from raiders that raiders are entitled to have. > > It might reduce the number of people playing the current raids. > > **Raiders are not entitled to have access to those players.** > > It might reduce the exclusivity of their current rewards. > > **Raiders are not entitled to having exclusivity to those rewards.** > > If easy mode raids makes the game more fun to play for the people who participate in it, then that completely negates any imagined "harm" their existence might cause to raiders. And casuals are not entitled to have access to legendary armor through easier means... see your logic there? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > Or not... Seriously there's already a raid encounter (Escort) that's easier than many dungeons, or fractals, and yet still only ~25% of people have Li on their accounts, people aren't interested regardless of dificulty. And how that 25% relates to the number of people that do the raids regularly? > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > Mind you, there's a cool site with thousands of registered users (184 thousand accounts, pretty good sample, there's a lot of scientific studies done with a thousandth of that) that tracks a lot of stuff, one of them is Legendary Insights, and only ~25% of people have at least one, which means that only ~25% of people attempted a Raid encounter to completion. Given that Escort is pretty much impossible to fail (unless you quit really early), this kinda disproves the "many tried, but didn't stick" theory. First, i know a lot of players that started at VG, not Escort (and dropped out at this point). Second, Escort can fail easily. You think it's so easy and impossible to fail only because you do it in a group of players that already know it. > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > Or at least, didn't try anywhere hard enough "Hard enough" is a relative concept. Unless you define "trying hard enough" as not quitting, in which case it's definitely true, but doesn't actually say anything. > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > No, they are interested, but, like i explained before, and you carefully managed to ignore, crafting a single set of Legendary Armor (nevermind the 3 sets) requires players to complete hundreds of raid encounters, and regardless of how much you enjoy doing something, when you have to repeat it hundreds of times, if you have a easier way to do that you will. Doesn't mean that they dislike hard content, it means it gets repetitive. No, it means they are in it not because they like it, but to craft the legendary armor. Only in this case would they take easier, but slower way towards the armor. > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > Raid rewards are already capped weekly? And you don't want a single reward, the more encounters players can complete in a week, the faster they get the Li for the legendary armour. > I'm not sure that you didn't know that fact or just forgot about it. Yes, but that's per boss, not fractal style. What i meant is that, instead of capping LI (which might cause some players to just stick to easier encounters and ignore hardest ones), you might do the same, but through offering LI by a restricted number of daily/weekly achieves (the same as in fractals where main rewards come from daily chests that are offered only for 3 selected fractals each day). > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > Casual players mostly don't read such guides. I'd say that many players don't even know those exist. > > > Because those casual players aren't interested in Raids... ...no, because they are _casual_. If they were reading guides, following the meta and rigorously practicing their rotations they wouldn't be called casuals. They'd be hardcores. This doesn't mean casuals aren't interested in raids (or any other content). It just means they act on their likes and dislikes in a casual way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerioth.7062 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > > > >Realistically speaking everyone are not going to like everything. Your argument can be flipped right back at you - what if the current raid community does not like the approach YOU want to take? > > > > > > > > The raid community isn't really relevant here. They already have the mode they want, they are covered. This is about closing a gap, the only people who matter are those who would fit into that gap, the players not currently raiding. If raiders are unsatisfied with the version they have, then that would be a separate conversation to have. > > > > > > The raiders would be unsatisfied with easy mode raids because it would be harmful to the raid scene. This would mean the following things: > > > > > > 1. The fact that raids already are split into different difficulty levels. Making an easy mode out of escort will never be on the same level with easy mode Matthias. > > > 2. Growing the raiding scene. This is an issue if you do not want to make GW2 into a raid-centric game like many other MMOs. This is not that MMO and I hope it never will be. If you grow the raiding scene, the devs have to work harder in order to produce both normal and easy mode raids, then potentially challenge motes on top of that. This means that we are either waiting longer for each wing (which is currently an issue for the raiding community) or they have to dedicate more devs into raiding which takes away from other things in the game. > > > 3. Again, MANY PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO RAID EVEN IF EASY MODE EXISTED, period. You could be spending all that work on enhancing other things, such as the fractals or even revamping the dungeons instead. The payoff is not as big as you think it will be. > > > > > > You can choose to adapt or you can choose to stick to only certain game modes and thus not being able to acquire everything. That is your own choice. You could choose to learn raids, or pay your way through them. You have the options, you are just not utilizing them. And that is on you, not on the devs. > > > > Ohoni, I applaud your effort, I really do, but we are better putting effort in getting Legendary Armor in something like fractals, because we will never get it here, I’ve come to terms with that. > > > > Having a discussion here is like talking to a stone wall. Cold and unmovable. It’s one of those, “let the baby have its bottle” moments. > > I think raiders feel the same about people like Ohoni. It's like ok, whatever, this is a completely useless thread. Stop repeating the same things 29483858 times, we'll never agree with you and you will never agree with us. The devs have already all our reasons, just let them decide and work. Nothing more to do here. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > >The raiders would be unsatisfied with easy mode raids because it would be harmful to the raid scene. This would mean the following things: > > > > There is nothing about an easy mode that could take anything away from raiders that raiders are entitled to have. > > > > It might reduce the number of people playing the current raids. > > > > **Raiders are not entitled to have access to those players.** > > > > It might reduce the exclusivity of their current rewards. > > > > **Raiders are not entitled to having exclusivity to those rewards.** > > > > If easy mode raids makes the game more fun to play for the people who participate in it, then that completely negates any imagined "harm" their existence might cause to raiders. > > And casuals are not entitled to have access to legendary armor through easier means... see your logic there? :) Sorry, but it doesn't work both ways. :anguished: See, in the one direction, you have players that don't currently have access to Envoy armor that would work for them. Adding that method would allow them to get it, which would make them happier. Raiders already have a method. Adding a new method would not take anything away from them. As I noted, the exclusivity of it would be reduced, but they are not *entitled* to that exclusivity, and being happy about exclusivity is being happy **at the expense of another person,** and I'm sorry, but that is not an equally valid response to wanting something for your own happiness. If raiders cannot be happy having Envoy armor themselves, unless they can also enjoy that other players do *not* have it, then they just don't deserve to be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerioth.7062 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > > >The raiders would be unsatisfied with easy mode raids because it would be harmful to the raid scene. This would mean the following things: > > > > > > There is nothing about an easy mode that could take anything away from raiders that raiders are entitled to have. > > > > > > It might reduce the number of people playing the current raids. > > > > > > **Raiders are not entitled to have access to those players.** > > > > > > It might reduce the exclusivity of their current rewards. > > > > > > **Raiders are not entitled to having exclusivity to those rewards.** > > > > > > If easy mode raids makes the game more fun to play for the people who participate in it, then that completely negates any imagined "harm" their existence might cause to raiders. > > > > And casuals are not entitled to have access to legendary armor through easier means... see your logic there? :) > > Sorry, but it doesn't work both ways. :anguished: > > See, in the one direction, you have players that don't currently have access to Envoy armor that would work for them. Adding that method would allow them to get it, which would make them happier. > > Raiders already have a method. Adding a new method would not take anything away from them. > > As I noted, the exclusivity of it would be reduced, but they are not *entitled* to that exclusivity, and being happy about exclusivity is being happy **at the expense of another person,** and I'm sorry, but that is not an equally valid response to wanting something for your own happiness. If raiders cannot be happy having Envoy armor themselves, unless they can also enjoy that other players do *not* have it, then they just don't deserve to be happy. Wrong. Everyone have equal access to Envoy armor. Those who do raids just chose to utilize that access. Those who do not raid chose not to utilize that access. Edit: And just because I raid does not mean I am pursuing for Legendary Armor. I have done absolutely nothing for that collection. That is my own choice. It is also your own choice to not go to the raids and get your legendary armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > > > >The raiders would be unsatisfied with easy mode raids because it would be harmful to the raid scene. This would mean the following things: > > > > > > > > There is nothing about an easy mode that could take anything away from raiders that raiders are entitled to have. > > > > > > > > It might reduce the number of people playing the current raids. > > > > > > > > **Raiders are not entitled to have access to those players.** > > > > > > > > It might reduce the exclusivity of their current rewards. > > > > > > > > **Raiders are not entitled to having exclusivity to those rewards.** > > > > > > > > If easy mode raids makes the game more fun to play for the people who participate in it, then that completely negates any imagined "harm" their existence might cause to raiders. > > > > > > And casuals are not entitled to have access to legendary armor through easier means... see your logic there? :) > > > > Sorry, but it doesn't work both ways. :anguished: > > > > See, in the one direction, you have players that don't currently have access to Envoy armor that would work for them. Adding that method would allow them to get it, which would make them happier. > > > > Raiders already have a method. Adding a new method would not take anything away from them. > > > > As I noted, the exclusivity of it would be reduced, but they are not *entitled* to that exclusivity, and being happy about exclusivity is being happy **at the expense of another person,** and I'm sorry, but that is not an equally valid response to wanting something for your own happiness. If raiders cannot be happy having Envoy armor themselves, unless they can also enjoy that other players do *not* have it, then they just don't deserve to be happy. > > Wrong. Everyone have equal access to Envoy armor. Those who do raids just chose to utilize that access. Those who do not raid chose not to utilize that access. > > Edit: And just because I raid does not mean I am pursuing for Legendary Armor. I have done absolutely nothing for that collection. That is my own choice. It is also your own choice to not go to the raids and get your legendary armor. I know the real reason Cerioth, you don’t want to do provisioned tokens. Admit it. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerioth.7062 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > > > > >The raiders would be unsatisfied with easy mode raids because it would be harmful to the raid scene. This would mean the following things: > > > > > > > > > > There is nothing about an easy mode that could take anything away from raiders that raiders are entitled to have. > > > > > > > > > > It might reduce the number of people playing the current raids. > > > > > > > > > > **Raiders are not entitled to have access to those players.** > > > > > > > > > > It might reduce the exclusivity of their current rewards. > > > > > > > > > > **Raiders are not entitled to having exclusivity to those rewards.** > > > > > > > > > > If easy mode raids makes the game more fun to play for the people who participate in it, then that completely negates any imagined "harm" their existence might cause to raiders. > > > > > > > > And casuals are not entitled to have access to legendary armor through easier means... see your logic there? :) > > > > > > Sorry, but it doesn't work both ways. :anguished: > > > > > > See, in the one direction, you have players that don't currently have access to Envoy armor that would work for them. Adding that method would allow them to get it, which would make them happier. > > > > > > Raiders already have a method. Adding a new method would not take anything away from them. > > > > > > As I noted, the exclusivity of it would be reduced, but they are not *entitled* to that exclusivity, and being happy about exclusivity is being happy **at the expense of another person,** and I'm sorry, but that is not an equally valid response to wanting something for your own happiness. If raiders cannot be happy having Envoy armor themselves, unless they can also enjoy that other players do *not* have it, then they just don't deserve to be happy. > > > > Wrong. Everyone have equal access to Envoy armor. Those who do raids just chose to utilize that access. Those who do not raid chose not to utilize that access. > > > > Edit: And just because I raid does not mean I am pursuing for Legendary Armor. I have done absolutely nothing for that collection. That is my own choice. It is also your own choice to not go to the raids and get your legendary armor. > > I know the real reason Cerioth, you don’t want to do provisioned tokens. Admit it. ? More like I am too busy pursuing legendary weapons and PVP backpack :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinceman.4572 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Sorry, but it doesn't work both ways. :anguished: > Yes, it does! > See, in the one direction, you have players that don't currently have access to Envoy armor that would work for them. Every player in this game (with HoT expansion) has access to raids and therefore the armor. > Raiders already have a method. Adding a new method would not take anything away from them. > As I noted, the exclusivity of it would be reduced, but they are not *entitled* to that exclusivity, and being happy about exclusivity is being happy **at the expense of another person,** and I'm sorry, but that is not an equally valid response to wanting something for your own happiness. If raiders cannot be happy having Envoy armor themselves, unless they can also enjoy that other players do *not* have it, then they just don't deserve to be happy. It's not that raiders look down and are happy because others don't have that armor. It's more like being happy about beating challenging content and having an appropriate reward for it. This would get devaluated heavily if people come around in the same armor without having done anything similar. And no grinding an easy mode is **not** the same than beating normal mode raids. You yourself said a special "title" for normal mode raiders would be ok. I say no, this game is fashion wars and therefore skins have to be a reward for the extra effort from an normal mode here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > Sorry, but it doesn't work both ways. :anguished: > > > > Yes, it does! > > > See, in the one direction, you have players that don't currently have access to Envoy armor that would work for them. > > Every player in this game (with HoT expansion) has access to raids and therefore the armor. > > > Raiders already have a method. Adding a new method would not take anything away from them. > > As I noted, the exclusivity of it would be reduced, but they are not *entitled* to that exclusivity, and being happy about exclusivity is being happy **at the expense of another person,** and I'm sorry, but that is not an equally valid response to wanting something for your own happiness. If raiders cannot be happy having Envoy armor themselves, unless they can also enjoy that other players do *not* have it, then they just don't deserve to be happy. > > It's not that raiders look down and are happy because others don't have that armor. It's more like being happy about beating challenging content and having an appropriate reward for it. This would get devaluated heavily if people come around in the same armor without having done anything similar. And no grinding an easy mode is **not** the same than beating normal mode raids. You yourself said a special "title" for normal mode raiders would be ok. I say no, this game is fashion wars and therefore skins have to be a reward for the extra effort from an normal mode here. armor being 'devalued' is in your head, they are skins, long term objectives nothing more. Easy mode raids would have different skins/objectives (along EXACT same lines as pvp/wvw armor). its ok for pvpers to grind legendary armor, its ok for wvw, and its not fair that PVERS that don't like the current niche style of raiding have no access to long term legendary armor goals - and easier mode raiding gives them that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerioth.7062 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > Sorry, but it doesn't work both ways. :anguished: > > > > > > > Yes, it does! > > > > > See, in the one direction, you have players that don't currently have access to Envoy armor that would work for them. > > > > Every player in this game (with HoT expansion) has access to raids and therefore the armor. > > > > > Raiders already have a method. Adding a new method would not take anything away from them. > > > As I noted, the exclusivity of it would be reduced, but they are not *entitled* to that exclusivity, and being happy about exclusivity is being happy **at the expense of another person,** and I'm sorry, but that is not an equally valid response to wanting something for your own happiness. If raiders cannot be happy having Envoy armor themselves, unless they can also enjoy that other players do *not* have it, then they just don't deserve to be happy. > > > > It's not that raiders look down and are happy because others don't have that armor. It's more like being happy about beating challenging content and having an appropriate reward for it. This would get devaluated heavily if people come around in the same armor without having done anything similar. And no grinding an easy mode is **not** the same than beating normal mode raids. You yourself said a special "title" for normal mode raiders would be ok. I say no, this game is fashion wars and therefore skins have to be a reward for the extra effort from an normal mode here. > > armor being 'devalued' is in your head, they are skins, long term objectives nothing more. Easy mode raids would have different skins/objectives (along EXACT same lines as pvp/wvw armor). its ok for pvpers to grind legendary armor, its ok for wvw, and its not fair that PVERS that don't like the current niche style of raiding have no access to long term legendary armor goals - and easier mode raiding gives them that. I think your comparisons are a bit off. It's not that easy and simple for PVP and WvW either. For PVP you HAVE to play ranked in order to get the PVP legendary backpack and PVP equivalent of legendary armor. This is a PVP version of raids if you will. Ranked games take actual skill and dedication. If you are completely unskilled and go to do ranked PVP, grinding through all the needed stuff for your armor is going to take a while. For WvW you HAVE to spend a LOT of time in the game mode to acquire the legendary armor - thus investing many hours into grinding it. Why should the PVE equivalent be even easier and faster than it is already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > Sorry, but it doesn't work both ways. :anguished: > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it does! > > > > > > > See, in the one direction, you have players that don't currently have access to Envoy armor that would work for them. > > > > > > Every player in this game (with HoT expansion) has access to raids and therefore the armor. > > > > > > > Raiders already have a method. Adding a new method would not take anything away from them. > > > > As I noted, the exclusivity of it would be reduced, but they are not *entitled* to that exclusivity, and being happy about exclusivity is being happy **at the expense of another person,** and I'm sorry, but that is not an equally valid response to wanting something for your own happiness. If raiders cannot be happy having Envoy armor themselves, unless they can also enjoy that other players do *not* have it, then they just don't deserve to be happy. > > > > > > It's not that raiders look down and are happy because others don't have that armor. It's more like being happy about beating challenging content and having an appropriate reward for it. This would get devaluated heavily if people come around in the same armor without having done anything similar. And no grinding an easy mode is **not** the same than beating normal mode raids. You yourself said a special "title" for normal mode raiders would be ok. I say no, this game is fashion wars and therefore skins have to be a reward for the extra effort from an normal mode here. > > > > armor being 'devalued' is in your head, they are skins, long term objectives nothing more. Easy mode raids would have different skins/objectives (along EXACT same lines as pvp/wvw armor). its ok for pvpers to grind legendary armor, its ok for wvw, and its not fair that PVERS that don't like the current niche style of raiding have no access to long term legendary armor goals - and easier mode raiding gives them that. > > I think your comparisons are a bit off. It's not that easy and simple for PVP and WvW either. > > For PVP you HAVE to play ranked in order to get the PVP legendary backpack and PVP equivalent of legendary armor. This is a PVP version of raids if you will. Ranked games take actual skill and dedication. If you are completely unskilled and go to do ranked PVP, grinding through all the needed stuff for your armor is going to take a while. > > For WvW you HAVE to spend a LOT of time in the game mode to acquire the legendary armor - thus investing many hours into grinding it. > > Why should the PVE equivalent be even easier and faster than it is already? That’s why I think the implementation of Fractal Legendary Armor would supplement this demand. Challenging instance content, but with five players. Maybe for those that don’t like raids but prefer fractals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 > @"Cerioth.7062" said: >Wrong. Everyone have equal access to Envoy armor. Those who do raids just chose to utilize that access. Those who do not raid chose not to utilize that access. Sorry, but no. If this argument were at all true then raiders would not scream bloody murder at the suggestion that they share their toys. > @"Vinceman.4572" said: >It's not that raiders look down and are happy because others don't have that armor. It's more like being happy about beating challenging content and having an appropriate reward for it. And that will remain, nobody is making any suggestion that would effect one word of that sentence. >This would get devaluated heavily if people come around in the same armor without having done anything similar. Not in the least. >I say no, this game is fashion wars and therefore skins have to be a reward for the extra effort from an normal mode here. And I say that your desire that this be the case does not beat out another player's desire to have the skin in question. > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > For PVP you HAVE to play ranked in order to get the PVP legendary backpack and PVP equivalent of legendary armor. Why do people say "you have to play ranked" as if this is some huge burden? All it means is that you hit the "ranked" button rather than the "unranked" button when picking matches. That's it! It's not like the difference between open world content and raids, it's more like the difference between. . . I don't even know, like the difference between playing open world content vs. playing open world content with a commander tag over your head? Playing Ranked doesn't mean you have to be any *good* at it. >If you are completely unskilled and go to do ranked PVP, grinding through all the needed stuff for your armor is going to take a while. Meh, it takes a lot less time than it currently does to earn Envoy armor without entering a raid. All we're asking for is the same option, the ability for easy-mode-raiders to earn Envoy armor as fast as bad-PvPers can earn The Ascension. > @"Tyson.5160" said: > That’s why I think the implementation of Fractal Legendary Armor would supplement this demand. Challenging instance content, but with five players. Maybe for those that don’t like raids but prefer fractals. Fractals have nothing to do with this. Maybe they should get an armor, maybe not, I don't care, but even if they did, it would do nothing to reduce the need for easy mode Envoy armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinceman.4572 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > armor being 'devalued' is in your head, they are skins, long term objectives nothing more. Easy mode raids would have different skins/objectives (along EXACT same lines as pvp/wvw armor). its ok for pvpers to grind legendary armor, its ok for wvw, and its not fair that PVERS that don't like the current niche style of raiding have no access to long term legendary armor goals - and easier mode raiding gives them that. Of course it's in my head, it's in everyone's head. Btw. I'm all in for a different leggy armor in PvE and we have written this in these threads over and over again. Did you even read in those threads and understood what was written? A lot of raiders have agreed to a different armor in PvE but not the Envoy one. Seriously, stop reading what you want to read. And yeah, you should also have looked up what Ohoni is claiming because that was the main issue in this whole discussion over endless pages. And yes, we all know that his desires/wishes are not going to happen in the slightest. > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > And that will remain, nobody is making any suggestion that would effect one word of that sentence. No, it won't if an Ohoni steps around the corner with the same thing but he did beat very much effortlessly braindead content. > Not in the least. Yes, of course. > And I say that your desire that this be the case does not beat out another player's desire to have the skin in question. Another player has the same options as I have. Play the content or don't play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > >Wrong. Everyone have equal access to Envoy armor. Those who do raids just chose to utilize that access. Those who do not raid chose not to utilize that access. > > Sorry, but no. If this argument were at all true then raiders would not scream bloody murder at the suggestion that they share their toys. > Just like everyone else that plays a game mode with unique rewards. Maybe try to get the WvW armor in a different mode and report back the reactions you get. > > >I say no, this game is fashion wars and therefore skins have to be a reward for the extra effort from an normal mode here. > > And I say that your desire that this be the case does not beat out another player's desire to have the skin in question. > Same applies for any other skin in the game but it's always those evil elitist raiders that don't want the poor open world player, that already has 90%+ of the content, to have their toys right? > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > For PVP you HAVE to play ranked in order to get the PVP legendary backpack and PVP equivalent of legendary armor. > > Why do people say "you have to play ranked" as if this is some huge burden? All it means is that you hit the "ranked" button rather than the "unranked" button when picking matches. That's it! It's not like the difference between open world content and raids, it's more like the difference between. . . I don't even know, like the difference between playing open world content vs. playing open world content with a commander tag over your head? Playing Ranked doesn't mean you have to be any *good* at it. > > >If you are completely unskilled and go to do ranked PVP, grinding through all the needed stuff for your armor is going to take a while. > > Meh, it takes a lot less time than it currently does to earn Envoy armor without entering a raid. All we're asking for is the same option, the ability for easy-mode-raiders to earn Envoy armor as fast as bad-PvPers can earn The Ascension. > It is exactly what you wanted, a slower variant to earn it. Too slow? Too bad. Also getting the Ascension as a bad PvP player also takes a while. The key difference is, you actually need to win games for the Ascension while you can actually lose all games and still get the armor. So the armor can actually be faster than the backpack. Exactly your vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > And that will remain, nobody is making any suggestion that would effect one word of that sentence. > > No, it won't if an Ohoni steps around the corner with the same thing but he did beat very much effortlessly braindead content. Nope. You will **still** have "beaten challenging content," nothing will have changed about that. And you will **still** "have an appropriate reward for it," nothing will have changed about that. Nothng will have changed on your end, all that would have changed is that this *other* player would *also* be happy with what he got, and you should be happy for him. >Another player has the same options as I have. Play the content or don't play it. But the options, in this case, happen to serve your interests. They are not equivalent positions. You enjoy raiding, you enjoy completing difficult challenges, so you also getting Envoy armor is win/win/win for you, you've sacrificed nothing to get there, you've put in no effort that you weren't already inclined to put in. You are enjoying the game to the best of your ability, and *also* being rewarded for doing so. If another player does not enjoy that content, then he has no win/win/win option, all he has available is "hate the content he's participating in" OR "never get the goals he wants." Neither of those is a win for him. Why does he not deserve the same win/win/win scenario that's available to you, one in which he gets the thing he wants AND is capable of enjoying the process of getting there? Stop trying to present it as if "anyone can just do what I did" is a fair argument. People do not get to *choose* what content they *enjoy.* > @"Miellyn.6847" said: >Same applies for any other skin in the game but it's always those evil elitist raiders that don't want the poor open world player, that already has 90%+ of the content, to have their toys right? That has been my experience. I really haven't heard many complaints from players of other game modes. Go around and see. Check the other forums, offer "what if you could earn Envoy armor through your mode, but in exchange it would be possible to earn [whatever is exclusive to that mode] via raiding too." See how many complain. >It is exactly what you wanted, a slower variant to earn it. Too slow? Too bad. Again, this is what I am asking for!!! There is currently no path available to unlock Envoy armor outside the raids. That's what I'm trying to change. >Also getting the Ascension as a bad PvP player also takes a while. The key difference is, you actually need to win games for the Ascension while you can actually lose all games and still get the armor. It really didn't take that long. I hated every minute of the process, which it part of the reason I have no interest to do it again trying to get Envoy armor, but it didn't take a ton of work, and certainly didn't take much skill. Yes, you had to win matches, but they tried their best to matchmake you against equal opponents, which wasn't perfect, but it certainly wasn't matching against the hardest possible opponents. In raiding terms it would be equivalent to easy mode, in that if a "meta" team showed up for the raid, the boss would be scaled to be a real challenge to that meta team, whereas if a really terrible non-meta team showed up, the boss would automatically scale down to match their projected DPS and skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > >Same applies for any other skin in the game but it's always those evil elitist raiders that don't want the poor open world player, that already has 90%+ of the content, to have their toys right? > > That has been my experience. I really haven't heard many complaints from players of other game modes. Go around and see. Check the other forums, offer "what if you could earn Envoy armor through your mode, but in exchange it would be possible to earn [whatever is exclusive to that mode] via raiding too." See how many complain. > Ask WvW players about gifting their skins to open world and report back the reactions. It is not about envoy armor it is about specific skins in specific game modes. You will get the same reaction everywhere. But raiders are evil and toxic. > >It is exactly what you wanted, a slower variant to earn it. Too slow? Too bad. > > Again, this is what I am asking for!!! There is currently no path available to unlock Envoy armor outside the raids. That's what I'm trying to change. > > >Also getting the Ascension as a bad PvP player also takes a while. The key difference is, you actually need to win games for the Ascension while you can actually lose all games and still get the armor. > > It really didn't take that long. I hated every minute of the process, which it part of the reason I have no interest to do it again trying to get Envoy armor, but it didn't take a ton of work, and certainly didn't take much skill. Yes, you had to win matches, but they tried their best to matchmake you against equal opponents, which wasn't perfect, but it certainly wasn't matching against the hardest possible opponents. In raiding terms it would be equivalent to easy mode, in that if a "meta" team showed up for the raid, the boss would be scaled to be a real challenge to that meta team, whereas if a really terrible non-meta team showed up, the boss would automatically scale down to match their projected DPS and skills. > The PvP armor is effortless grind. You can lose all matches and still get it. It is exactly what you want. The thing you want would take 100s or 1000s of dev hours. Will never happen. The tech to scale down based on builds does not exist and is completely stupid anyway as you can deal low damage with a meta build. It would need to scale with player skill and that is even more unrealistic than scaling with builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > Ask WvW players about gifting their skins to open world and report back the reactions. They'd have no right to complain, since they already have access to TONS of open world and other PvE rewards via their reward tracks, but I believe that if it were fairly explained as "the PvEers would have to work for anything they earned, just like you, and in exchange you would get access to even more reward options," I don't see how they'd have a reason to complain about it. >But raiders are evil and toxic. More just selfish. >The PvP armor is effortless grind. You can lose all matches and still get it. It is exactly what you want. PvP armor doesn't currently have the envoy skin. It has nothing to do with what I want. >The thing you want would take 100s or 1000s of dev hours. Will never happen. The tech to scale down based on builds does not exist and is completely stupid anyway as you can deal low damage with a meta build. It would need to scale with player skill and that is even more unrealistic than scaling with builds. I'm not saying I *want* that sort of infinite scaling, I'm just saying that is *equivalent* to how PvP works, in that the team you face at least *attempts* to be balanced with the team you bring in, rather than just constantly matching top-tier players against anyone that shows up. I've already explained how I'd like them to implement an easy mode, and that should be a *lot* less work to implement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > Ask WvW players about gifting their skins to open world and report back the reactions. > > They'd have no right to complain, since they already have access to TONS of open world and other PvE rewards via their reward tracks, but I believe that if it were fairly explained as "the PvEers would have to work for anything they earned, just like you, and in exchange you would get access to even more reward options," I don't see how they'd have a reason to complain about it. > Pretty easy to see. WvW armor is there to reward WvW players and to lure in new players. They have all right to complain. Some PvE skins are obtainable in WvW because of Living Story content so those players also get something for LS releases even if they don't play PvE and older skins so they don't have to create tons of new skins as rewards. There are still unique skins in open world like astral weapons that don't appear anywhere else. > >But raiders are evil and toxic. > > More just selfish. > But wanting all rewards in the game is not selfish? > >The PvP armor is effortless grind. You can lose all matches and still get it. It is exactly what you want. > > PvP armor doesn't currently have the envoy skin. It has nothing to do with what I want. > The method is the thing you want. Mindless grind without effort to get the reward. > >The thing you want would take 100s or 1000s of dev hours. Will never happen. The tech to scale down based on builds does not exist and is completely stupid anyway as you can deal low damage with a meta build. It would need to scale with player skill and that is even more unrealistic than scaling with builds. > > I'm not saying I *want* that sort of infinite scaling, I'm just saying that is *equivalent* to how PvP works, in that the team you face at least *attempts* to be balanced with the team you bring in, rather than just constantly matching top-tier players against anyone that shows up. I've already explained how I'd like them to implement an easy mode, and that should be a *lot* less work to implement. No PvP doesn't work like this. The chance for a meta compostion in ranked is very small. You can only play in parties of 2 and in legendary only alone in ranked. It just matches within a MMR difference. No you didn't. All suggestions still take a sizable amout of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: >Pretty easy to see. WvW armor is there to reward WvW players and to lure in new players. They have all right to complain. But they already have the reward tracks to reward WvW players, and they have the Legendary Weapons to lure in new players. They shouldn't need Legendary armor for either purpose, that crosses more into the "bribe" territory. >There are still unique skins in open world like astral weapons that don't appear anywhere else. So offer Astral weapons for WvW stuff, fair trade. >But wanting all rewards in the game is not selfish? No, not so long as one is willing to share. The issue is not in wanting all the things for yourself, the issue is in *not* wanting *others* to have the things you've got. In a post-scarcity environment, there's no moral excuse for not wanting other people to have everything they want. >The method is the thing you want. Mindless grind without effort to get the reward. Sort of, although ideally without PvP, but again, it doesn't currently offer the Envoy skins, so it's not offering anything I want. Now if that changes, if the PvP armor does start to include the Envoy skins, then I might crawl back through the PvP pits, but ideally there would be a PvE option that I could actually enjoy playing as much as PvPers enjoy PvP, and raiders enjoy raiding. >No PvP doesn't work like this. The chance for a meta compostion in ranked is very small. You can only play in parties of 2 and in legendary only alone in ranked. It just matches within a MMR difference. Right, but it does try to match players based on MMR, it tries to match the opposition against fair opponents. That was my point, that the raid equivalent would be that if you bring a team that could theoretically low-man and farm the encounter, it would actually do its best to increase the threat, while if you came in with a "training" team that had poor gearing, poor experience, etc., then it would go much easier on them than the current raid offers and they'd have a really good chance of beating it first try. Again, I'm not arguing that this is the change they *should* make, I'm just presenting it as "what the equivalent version of raiding would be to Ranked PvP, if there were such a thing." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > >Pretty easy to see. WvW armor is there to reward WvW players and to lure in new players. They have all right to complain. > > But they already have the reward tracks to reward WvW players, and they have the Legendary Weapons to lure in new players. They shouldn't need Legendary armor for either purpose, that crosses more into the "bribe" territory. > Legendary weapons are mostly open world, not WvW. Most people don't care for equipment rarity over exotic. You don't lure anyone into WvW with legendary armor as it is just too expensive for most players. > >There are still unique skins in open world like astral weapons that don't appear anywhere else. > > So offer Astral weapons for WvW stuff, fair trade. > Na, armor takes more time than weapons. > >But wanting all rewards in the game is not selfish? > > No, not so long as one is willing to share. The issue is not in wanting all the things for yourself, the issue is in *not* wanting *others* to have the things you've got. In a post-scarcity environment, there's no moral excuse for not wanting other people to have everything they want. > 'I want all rewards in the game but because I propose methods so everyone else can get them too I'm not selfish'. No that's not how it works. Your intention is selfish, you want the whole reward system to cater to yourself. > >The method is the thing you want. Mindless grind without effort to get the reward. > > Sort of, although ideally without PvP, but again, it doesn't currently offer the Envoy skins, so it's not offering anything I want. Now if that changes, if the PvP armor does start to include the Envoy skins, then I might crawl back through the PvP pits, but ideally there would be a PvE option that I could actually enjoy playing as much as PvPers enjoy PvP, and raiders enjoy raiding. > > >No PvP doesn't work like this. The chance for a meta compostion in ranked is very small. You can only play in parties of 2 and in legendary only alone in ranked. It just matches within a MMR difference. > > Right, but it does try to match players based on MMR, it tries to match the opposition against fair opponents. That was my point, that the raid equivalent would be that if you bring a team that could theoretically low-man and farm the encounter, it would actually do its best to increase the threat, while if you came in with a "training" team that had poor gearing, poor experience, etc., then it would go much easier on them than the current raid offers and they'd have a really good chance of beating it first try. Again, I'm not arguing that this is the change they *should* make, I'm just presenting it as "what the equivalent version of raiding would be to Ranked PvP, if there were such a thing." The fractal solution would be much easier than yours and that would still take a lot of time as raids are not designed to support multiple difficulties right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > Legendary weapons are mostly open world, not WvW. Mostly, yes, but you have to do a certain amount of WvW to finish them. That amount is plenty to cover the role of "get new players to give WvW a try." Anything more than that would be excessive. >'I want all rewards in the game but because I propose methods so everyone else can get them too I'm not selfish'. No that's not how it works. It is, actually. Again, selfishness is defined by an inconsideration for others, for not caring what they want so long as you get yours. I want all players to have what they want. I've said in the past, and I fully mean it, that I would continue to campaign on this cause even if the devs mailed me a complete set of Envoy armor, completely removing any self-interest goal I might have in the process. I do want the armor for myself, but I still think it's the best for everyone that it be made more available to everyone else. >Your intention is selfish, you want the whole reward system to cater to yourself. As do you, the only differences are that 1. the system is already set up to favor you, and 2. you want to limit what other people have, whereas I want them to have what they want. >The fractal solution would be much easier than yours and that would still take a lot of time as raids are not designed to support multiple difficulties right now. How many times do I have to repeat that I am not actually advocating for that as a system change? I said it at least twice in the paragraphs you've quoted. /sigh. As for the actual easy mode, the *one* additional mode, it would be much easier to implement than anything equivalent in Fractals. It would take work, just *less* work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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