Please Overhaul Raids.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > Legendary weapons are mostly open world, not WvW.

>

> Mostly, yes, but you have to do a certain amount of WvW to finish them. That amount is plenty to cover the role of "get new players to give WvW a try." Anything more than that would be excessive.

>

No. Legendary weapons are still very niche. You need something for the greater masses. Something like a normal armor or weapon. Oh wait that exist. And also things that reward long term players. Looks like a good system.

> Again, selfishness is defined by an inconsideration for others, for not caring what they want so long as you get yours. I want all players to have what they want. I've said in the past, and I fully mean it, that I would continue to campaign on this cause even if the devs mailed me a complete set of Envoy armor, completely removing any self-interest goal I might have in the process. I do want the armor for myself, but I still think it's the best for everyone that it be made more available to everyone else.

>

Like your ignorance towards the original playerbase of the game modes?

The fact that noone ever tried it in the last 25 years shows that it certainly is not the best to award everything trough any activity. Path of least resistance you know? You can try as hard as you want to ignore it but it will still come back and ruin your plan.

> >Your intention is selfish, you want the whole reward system to cater to yourself.

>

> As do you, the only differences are that 1. the system is already set up to favor you, and 2. you want to limit what other people have, whereas I want them to have what they want.

>

Both statements are wrong.

I really like the mistforged weapons and the WvW armor but I don't like WvW and just play it a bit everytime I want a legendary weapon so I will never get those.

I just understand the purpose and the role the system plays in the current game and can accept it that I won't ever have all rewards. That's a small difference.

> >The fractal solution would be much easier than yours and that would still take a lot of time as raids are not designed to support multiple difficulties right now.

>

> How many times do I have to repeat that I am not actually advocating for that as a system change? I said it at least twice in the paragraphs you've quoted. /sigh.

>

> As for the actual easy mode, the *one* additional mode, it would be much easier to implement than anything equivalent in Fractals. It would take work, just *less* work.

 

Yeah and that 'less' work is still so much it would have an sizable impact on content delivery. That's the entire point. Did you read the last 60 pages?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

>No. Legendary weapons are still very niche. You need something for the greater masses. Something like a normal armor or weapon. Oh wait that exist. And also things that reward long term players. Looks like a good system.

 

Legendary armor is more niche than legendary weapons. I'm really not sure what you're talking about.

 

>Like your ignorance towards the original playerbase of the game modes?

 

No, I hear their complaints, I just don't believe that they outweigh the good that could be caused by moving forward. Were there some players salty about dungeon rewards being added to PvP and WvW reward tracks? Probably, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't the right move to make. You can't make everyone happy, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to make as many people happy as possible.

 

>I really like the mistforged weapons and the WvW armor but I don't like WvW and just play it a bit everytime I want a legendary weapon so I will never get those.

 

Ok, but clearly you don't care about them enough to put in the hard work of lobbying for changes to the game, so it's not really equivalent. You care, but not enough.

 

>Yeah and that 'less' work is still so much it would have an sizable impact on content delivery. That's the entire point. Did you read the last 60 pages?

 

Yes, a *lot* of speculation that I largely don't agree with in that regard. We still have NO hard figures on how much a streamlined easy mode raid would cost in terms of development time, and there that time would be taken from. Repeating "it would take a whole lot of time" over and over does not mean it actually *would* take a lot of time, and I've seen no reason to believe that it would.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Yes, a *lot* of speculation that I largely don't agree with in that regard. We still have NO hard figures on how much a streamlined easy mode raid would cost in terms of development time, and there that time would be taken from. Repeating "it would take a whole lot of time" over and over does not mean it actually *would* take a lot of time, and I've seen no reason to believe that it would.

 

There was a post by Gaile Gray stating that it is actually a lot of work to make such a change. I don't know why you repeat "it wouldn't take a lot of time", when you have confirmation by people working in actual game development, that it would. That should be more than enough reason.

I think it was in the old forums because I can't possibly find it now but it was there.

[nia.4725]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Yes, a *lot* of speculation that I largely don't agree with in that regard. We still have NO hard figures on how much a streamlined easy mode raid would cost in terms of development time, and there that time would be taken from. Repeating "it would take a whole lot of time" over and over does not mean it actually *would* take a lot of time, and I've seen no reason to believe that it would.

>

> There was a post by Gaile Gray stating that it is actually a lot of work to make such a change. I don't know why you repeat "it wouldn't take a lot of time", when you have confirmation by people working in actual game development, that it would. That should be more than enough reason.

> I think it was in the old forums because I can't possibly find it now but it was there.

 

It's pretty obvious it would take a lot of time. Design every easy mode boss, copy-modify the boss code to implement those changes, make a system in which the boss that spawns will be different depending on the option the player has chosen -easy or normal. Along with deciding and implementing the code about rewards drop, creating achievements... The only advantage would be reusing assets and having a base code to modify, I think.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> >The raiders would be unsatisfied with easy mode raids because it would be harmful to the raid scene. This would mean the following things:

>

> There is nothing about an easy mode that could take anything away from raiders that raiders are entitled to have.

>

> It might reduce the number of people playing the current raids.

>

> **Raiders are not entitled to have access to those players.**

 

But you are?

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

>> It might reduce the exclusivity of their current rewards.

>

> **Raiders are not entitled to having exclusivity to those rewards.**

 

But you are?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>There was a post by Gaile Gray stating that it is actually a lot of work to make such a change.

 

No, no post was specific about the trade-offs involved in adding a simple easy mode. There were points making clear that it wasn't completely trivial, but we still don't know "if easy mode, then not [what?]"

 

 

 

> @"nia.4725" said:

> It's pretty obvious it would take a lot of time. Design every easy mode boss, copy-modify the boss code to implement those changes, make a system in which the boss that spawns will be different depending on the option the player has chosen -easy or normal.

 

First, that would be the complicated way to do it. The easier way would be to copy the entire raid, make the changes to the alternate boss. Don't have "Vale Guardian" spawn or "Vale Guardian in easy mode" spawn if they activated the easy mode flag, just have a separate "easy mode raid" that spawns "E.Vale Guardian," who is a completely distinct monster that happens to copy-paste most of original VG's code. It would be a bit more like the Bloodstone Fen one.

 

Basically the only "check" should be a onetime thing at the entrance, pick "Normal mode," and the raid is exactly like you've seen, nothing touched. Pick "easy mode," and you're in a completely separate copy, tweaked as needed for the purposes of easy mode. Yes, it would mean that if they needed to make changes to one, they'd need to duplicate those changes over to the other, which is a little added hassle, but hopefully by this point the original raids are relatively stable.

 

> The only advantage would be reusing assets and having a base code to modify, I think.

 

Which is not insignificant given the thousands of man-hours that likely went into making such things over the original raids.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > >The raiders would be unsatisfied with easy mode raids because it would be harmful to the raid scene. This would mean the following things:

> >

> > There is nothing about an easy mode that could take anything away from raiders that raiders are entitled to have.

> >

> > It might reduce the number of people playing the current raids.

> >

> > **Raiders are not entitled to have access to those players.**

>

> But you are?

>

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> >> It might reduce the exclusivity of their current rewards.

> >

> > **Raiders are not entitled to having exclusivity to those rewards.**

>

> But you are?

 

No, but that's my point. Nobody is entitled to anything, raiders are no more entitled to maintain the exclusivity of raid rewards than other players are to get them, so "entitlement" completely cancels out. So then we're just left with "what would make the most players happiest," and clearly "giving them access to the things they want from the game" would make more players happy than not, so that's the course to take.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> No, no post was specific about the trade-offs involved in adding a simple easy mode. There were points making clear that it wasn't completely trivial, but we still don't know "if easy mode, then not [what?]"

>

 

It was about adding an easy mode not being trivial so everything you say about it being "easy" it meaningless at this point.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > No, no post was specific about the trade-offs involved in adding a simple easy mode. There were points making clear that it wasn't completely trivial, but we still don't know "if easy mode, then not [what?]"

> >

>

> It was about adding an easy mode not being trivial so everything you say about it being "easy" it meaningless at this point.

 

Then you have nothing to worry about.

[Digit.1823]

I'm having issues with people claiming that simply because people _chose_ to do raids they are not entitled to it's rewards. What is this nonsense? Does nobody here screeching that bs understand anything about game design and it's rewards structure or something?

 

You guys are forgetting that it's the developer's content you're tackling in raids. Basically what's happened is this:

"Ladies and gentlemen, we the developers have made content that is the most challenging to be found in Guild Wars 2. You need teamwork, coordination and skill to beat it properly. This will be a challenging route but those who can defeat it will be properly rewarded with exclusive weapon skins and armor skins. If you defeat the content we made so challenging you are deserving of the rewards we implemented in that content."

 

This is it. This is how it works. Developer's put out content challenging the players to tackle it, those who choose to engage said content ARE deserving of the rewards (exclusive or not) if they beat said content. This is how games work. How are people this dense? You beat Gears of War on Insane mode - you get a shiny trophy (the reward + bragging rights). You beat Halo on Legendary difficulty - you get a shiny trophy (the reward + bragging rights). You beat any of the Uncharted games on crushing difficulty, where you basically die if an enemy sneezes too hard on you....you guessed it, you get a shiny trophy. (Which is the reward + bragging rights) And in Uncharted getting trophies literally also gives you in-game points which you can trade in for neat options like Screen Filters/Character Skins/Unlimited Ammo so why wouldn't you want to get those shiny trophies.

 

There are very few games out there that are insanely challenging, yet give no rewards so that the only thing you will have is bragging rights. And even bragging rights is in itself a reward for certain people. I'm astonished by the lack of understanding of people reeeeeeee-ing about how raiders are not _deserving_ of anything while the developer's themselves have shown that people doing raids **DESERVE** the rewards from that game mode if you beat it, because of all the exclusive skins/items you can get from them.

 

I pity the Anet devs sometimes about how asinine people are talking about their game, and the intention behind some of their choices. I'm pretty sure their intentions were at least always to try and do the right thing in their eyes.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Digit.1823" said:

>This is it. This is how it works. Developer's put out content challenging the players to tackle it, those who choose to engage said content ARE deserving of the rewards (exclusive or not) if they beat said content.

 

Sure. And if the developers, at a later date, decide to make those rewards available to other players through alternate means, the players who earned them the other way have no basis to complain.

 

Ultimately, the developers decide either way, I'm just encouraging them to choose differently than they have to this point, and this would be far from the first time they've changed their minds about how things should be.

 

 

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

>You can't make everyone happy, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to make as many people happy as possible.

 

But what if the amount of players wanting legendary armor ("for free")/effortlessly/grindy/easily is smaller than the amount of raiders that would be disappointed by devaluation via such method? You then produce more unhappy people than happy ones. And I repeat myself but it is a thing for raiders that they have beaten the most challenging content in the game and it would be ridiculous if others come around in the same armor and they put way less effort in it (and no, more grind/more time spend in an easy mode is still not adequate effort).

 

 

[Vinceman.4572]

double post due to forum issues - pls delete

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> But what if the amount of players wanting legendary armor ("for free")/effortlessly/grindy/easily is smaller than the amount of raiders that would be disappointed by devaluation via such method?

 

There's no such reality, so why worry about it? It would be like asking "but what if WvW was the most popular game mode of GW2?"

 

 

[nia.4725]

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/countdown-to-launch-raids/

 

_Coming shortly after Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™ launches, raids will bring a new type of group challenge to Tyria. Put your team coordination to the test using the knowledge and experiences you will have accumulated through your journey in the Heart of Maguuma, and work toward obtaining exclusive rewards._

 

_Raids are 10-player instances that will introduce very challenging content. Your raiding team will need to bring a high level of skill, strategy, and coordination in order to succeed and clear the raid._

 

_In the first raid wing, players will be gradually introduced to different mechanics needed to defeat the bosses. Coordination and communication will also play an important part in the success of your expedition._

 

_Raids will reward you with many new items, from miniatures to the components you’ll need to build legendary armor! Some bosses will also drop a trophy to use as a decoration in your guild hall._

 

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/legendary-armor-is-coming-soon/

 

_When we started creating raids, our aim was to produce complex endgame combat that would really give players a chance to demonstrate their skills, abilities, and tactical thinking in overcoming its challenges. As a reward for defeating the raid bosses, we realized early on that we would need something that reflects your success to other players. Enter legendary armor—the ultimate pinnacle of armor in all of Tyria._

 

You see? Exclusive rewards.

 

 

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > But what if the amount of players wanting legendary armor ("for free")/effortlessly/grindy/easily is smaller than the amount of raiders that would be disappointed by devaluation via such method?

>

> There's no such reality, so why worry about it? It would be like asking "but what if WvW was the most popular game mode of GW2?"

 

You don't have numbers/evidence for it. That's all. You're pretty much the only one here wanting exact these Envoy skins while others from the easy mode raid fraction have said they would be pleased with a different leggy armor a.k.a. different skins!

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/countdown-to-launch-raids/

>

> _Coming shortly after Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™ launches, raids will bring a new type of group challenge to Tyria. Put your team coordination to the test using the knowledge and experiences you will have accumulated through your journey in the Heart of Maguuma, and work toward obtaining exclusive rewards._

>

> _Raids are 10-player instances that will introduce very challenging content. Your raiding team will need to bring a high level of skill, strategy, and coordination in order to succeed and clear the raid._

>

> _In the first raid wing, players will be gradually introduced to different mechanics needed to defeat the bosses. Coordination and communication will also play an important part in the success of your expedition._

>

> _Raids will reward you with many new items, from miniatures to the components you’ll need to build legendary armor! Some bosses will also drop a trophy to use as a decoration in your guild hall._

>

> https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/legendary-armor-is-coming-soon/

>

> _When we started creating raids, our aim was to produce complex endgame combat that would really give players a chance to demonstrate their skills, abilities, and tactical thinking in overcoming its challenges. As a reward for defeating the raid bosses, we realized early on that we would need something that reflects your success to other players. Enter legendary armor—the ultimate pinnacle of armor in all of Tyria._

>

> You see? Exclusive rewards.

>

>

 

Until they change their minds. Hopefully soon.

[nia.4725]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/countdown-to-launch-raids/

> >

> > _Coming shortly after Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™ launches, raids will bring a new type of group challenge to Tyria. Put your team coordination to the test using the knowledge and experiences you will have accumulated through your journey in the Heart of Maguuma, and work toward obtaining exclusive rewards._

> >

> > _Raids are 10-player instances that will introduce very challenging content. Your raiding team will need to bring a high level of skill, strategy, and coordination in order to succeed and clear the raid._

> >

> > _In the first raid wing, players will be gradually introduced to different mechanics needed to defeat the bosses. Coordination and communication will also play an important part in the success of your expedition._

> >

> > _Raids will reward you with many new items, from miniatures to the components you’ll need to build legendary armor! Some bosses will also drop a trophy to use as a decoration in your guild hall._

> >

> > https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/legendary-armor-is-coming-soon/

> >

> > _When we started creating raids, our aim was to produce complex endgame combat that would really give players a chance to demonstrate their skills, abilities, and tactical thinking in overcoming its challenges. As a reward for defeating the raid bosses, we realized early on that we would need something that reflects your success to other players. Enter legendary armor—the ultimate pinnacle of armor in all of Tyria._

> >

> > You see? Exclusive rewards.

> >

> >

>

> Until they change their minds. Hopefully soon.

 

tell me more

[Raizel.8175]

So now it's about legendary armor again instead of the content itself, huh?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> So now it's about legendary armor again instead of the content itself, huh?

 

It's always been both. Are you the one that stops in every few pages to say "So now it's about legendary armor again instead of the content itself, huh?" as if there's some revelation in that, because *somebody* is constantly doing that, as if they haven't read any of the other pages.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> >No. Legendary weapons are still very niche. You need something for the greater masses. Something like a normal armor or weapon. Oh wait that exist. And also things that reward long term players. Looks like a good system.

>

> Legendary armor is more niche than legendary weapons. I'm really not sure what you're talking about.

>

Nobody talked about purple armor except you, I thought it was about skins. Focused on item color hmm?

> >Like your ignorance towards the original playerbase of the game modes?

>

> No, I hear their complaints, I just don't believe that they outweigh the good that could be caused by moving forward. Were there some players salty about dungeon rewards being added to PvP and WvW reward tracks? Probably, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't the right move to make. You can't make everyone happy, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to make as many people happy as possible.

>

Yeah and this time you are in the crowd that can't be happy. Maybe it is time to accept it.

> >I really like the mistforged weapons and the WvW armor but I don't like WvW and just play it a bit everytime I want a legendary weapon so I will never get those.

>

> Ok, but clearly you don't care about them enough to put in the hard work of lobbying for changes to the game, so it's not really equivalent. You care, but not enough.

>

No?

I never said that and stop quoting things out of context to fit your argumention. I actually understand that unique rewards in game modes are actually healthy for those game modes. I can accept that I don't get all rewards.

> >Yeah and that 'less' work is still so much it would have an sizable impact on content delivery. That's the entire point. Did you read the last 60 pages?

>

> Yes, a *lot* of speculation that I largely don't agree with in that regard. We still have NO hard figures on how much a streamlined easy mode raid would cost in terms of development time, and there that time would be taken from. Repeating "it would take a whole lot of time" over and over does not mean it actually *would* take a lot of time, and I've seen no reason to believe that it would.

 

Yeah and you are wrong. Even ArenaNet said it to you.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> >There was a post by Gaile Gray stating that it is actually a lot of work to make such a change.

>

> No, no post was specific about the trade-offs involved in adding a simple easy mode. There were points making clear that it wasn't completely trivial, but we still don't know "if easy mode, then not [what?]"

>

>

>

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > It's pretty obvious it would take a lot of time. Design every easy mode boss, copy-modify the boss code to implement those changes, make a system in which the boss that spawns will be different depending on the option the player has chosen -easy or normal.

>

> First, that would be the complicated way to do it. The easier way would be to copy the entire raid, make the changes to the alternate boss. Don't have "Vale Guardian" spawn or "Vale Guardian in easy mode" spawn if they activated the easy mode flag, just have a separate "easy mode raid" that spawns "E.Vale Guardian," who is a completely distinct monster that happens to copy-paste most of original VG's code. It would be a bit more like the Bloodstone Fen one.

>

> Basically the only "check" should be a onetime thing at the entrance, pick "Normal mode," and the raid is exactly like you've seen, nothing touched. Pick "easy mode," and you're in a completely separate copy, tweaked as needed for the purposes of easy mode. Yes, it would mean that if they needed to make changes to one, they'd need to duplicate those changes over to the other, which is a little added hassle, but hopefully by this point the original raids are relatively stable.

>

> > The only advantage would be reusing assets and having a base code to modify, I think.

>

> Which is not insignificant given the thousands of man-hours that likely went into making such things over the original raids.

>

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > >The raiders would be unsatisfied with easy mode raids because it would be harmful to the raid scene. This would mean the following things:

> > >

> > > There is nothing about an easy mode that could take anything away from raiders that raiders are entitled to have.

> > >

> > > It might reduce the number of people playing the current raids.

> > >

> > > **Raiders are not entitled to have access to those players.**

> >

> > But you are?

> >

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > >> It might reduce the exclusivity of their current rewards.

> > >

> > > **Raiders are not entitled to having exclusivity to those rewards.**

> >

> > But you are?

>

> No, but that's my point. Nobody is entitled to anything, raiders are no more entitled to maintain the exclusivity of raid rewards than other players are to get them, so "entitlement" completely cancels out. So then we're just left with "what would make the most players happiest," and clearly "giving them access to the things they want from the game" would make more players happy than not, so that's the course to take.

 

Nah. It's just how games work. Seriously, read that game theory I told you about.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > So now it's about legendary armor again instead of the content itself, huh?

>

> It's always been both. Are you the one that stops in every few pages to say "So now it's about legendary armor again instead of the content itself, huh?" as if there's some revelation in that, because *somebody* is constantly doing that, as if they haven't read any of the other pages.

 

Call me old-fashioned, but I always thought that the main-reward in playing games should be the gaming-experience itself. Loot should always only be a secondary incentive. Sure, legendary armor is also a reason for doing raids, but I mainly want to do them because the majority of open-world-content is just braindead running around and I need something that's engaging. Not that I wouldn't agree that there should be a second legendary PvE-armor though. A combination of fractals and PoF-maps would be nice just like raid-armor is a combination of HoT-maps and raids. Could be reasonable to revive PoF-maps and especially events like Serpent's Ire (PoF-"meta"-events could give time-gated materials like an equivalent to Provisioner's Tokens).

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > So now it's about legendary armor again instead of the content itself, huh?

> >

> > It's always been both. Are you the one that stops in every few pages to say "So now it's about legendary armor again instead of the content itself, huh?" as if there's some revelation in that, because *somebody* is constantly doing that, as if they haven't read any of the other pages.

>

> Call me old-fashioned, but I always thought that the main-reward in playing games should be the gaming-experience itself.

 

This only works for your first play-through. I still have fond memories of lots and lots of games I played some 20-25 years ago. Some of them didn't have loot at all, imagine that. However, a big part of enjoying this experience is its novelty. Seeing what lies ahead, overcoming the next challenge, and the next, and the next. Eventually saving the princess or whatever. And then moving on to the next game.

 

This isn't how modern MMOs function. They rely on players keeping playing them for hundreds or thousands of hours. They need players to spend a lot more in *this* game because its development is orders of magnitude more expensive than games 20 years ago used to be. And the problem is, you *can't* rely on pure gameplay experience to keep your players in the game for that long. Not any more than you could rely on a tennis ball staying in the air after you throw it up. Sure, some will stick, but the more time passes, the more players will get bored of the content in question and move on. This is where in-game rewards come. It's not that you're wrong per se, or old-fashioned. It's that the games are different these days, particularly MMOs.

[Cerioth.7062]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > >

> > > > > Sorry, but it doesn't work both ways. :anguished:

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Yes, it does!

> > > >

> > > > > See, in the one direction, you have players that don't currently have access to Envoy armor that would work for them.

> > > >

> > > > Every player in this game (with HoT expansion) has access to raids and therefore the armor.

> > > >

> > > > > Raiders already have a method. Adding a new method would not take anything away from them.

> > > > > As I noted, the exclusivity of it would be reduced, but they are not *entitled* to that exclusivity, and being happy about exclusivity is being happy **at the expense of another person,** and I'm sorry, but that is not an equally valid response to wanting something for your own happiness. If raiders cannot be happy having Envoy armor themselves, unless they can also enjoy that other players do *not* have it, then they just don't deserve to be happy.

> > > >

> > > > It's not that raiders look down and are happy because others don't have that armor. It's more like being happy about beating challenging content and having an appropriate reward for it. This would get devaluated heavily if people come around in the same armor without having done anything similar. And no grinding an easy mode is **not** the same than beating normal mode raids. You yourself said a special "title" for normal mode raiders would be ok. I say no, this game is fashion wars and therefore skins have to be a reward for the extra effort from an normal mode here.

> > >

> > > armor being 'devalued' is in your head, they are skins, long term objectives nothing more. Easy mode raids would have different skins/objectives (along EXACT same lines as pvp/wvw armor). its ok for pvpers to grind legendary armor, its ok for wvw, and its not fair that PVERS that don't like the current niche style of raiding have no access to long term legendary armor goals - and easier mode raiding gives them that.

> >

> > I think your comparisons are a bit off. It's not that easy and simple for PVP and WvW either.

> >

> > For PVP you HAVE to play ranked in order to get the PVP legendary backpack and PVP equivalent of legendary armor. This is a PVP version of raids if you will. Ranked games take actual skill and dedication. If you are completely unskilled and go to do ranked PVP, grinding through all the needed stuff for your armor is going to take a while.

> >

> > For WvW you HAVE to spend a LOT of time in the game mode to acquire the legendary armor - thus investing many hours into grinding it.

> >

> > Why should the PVE equivalent be even easier and faster than it is already?

>

> That’s why I think the implementation of Fractal Legendary Armor would supplement this demand. Challenging instance content, but with five players. Maybe for those that don’t like raids but prefer fractals.

 

This is a good idea honestly. I would not mind a nice fractal armor set.

 

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > For PVP you HAVE to play ranked in order to get the PVP legendary backpack and PVP equivalent of legendary armor.

>

> Why do people say "you have to play ranked" as if this is some huge burden? All it means is that you hit the "ranked" button rather than the "unranked" button when picking matches. That's it! It's not like the difference between open world content and raids, it's more like the difference between. . . I don't even know, like the difference between playing open world content vs. playing open world content with a commander tag over your head? Playing Ranked doesn't mean you have to be any *good* at it.

 

It sounds to me like you have little to no PVP experience. The difference is not simply "hitting the ranked button instead of unranked". In ranked matches people have lot higher expectations and it is more stress involving if you want good placements. If you are there just for the legendary goodies and stick with bronze, you can be stuck in losing matches which means less rewards and slower progress towards your legendaries - not to mention that for The Ascension you **need** to win in ranked matches on several different classes - that is only faster than getting legendary armor if you are actually a skilled PVPer. It takes skill to get The Ascension. Why should it not have to take skill to get the envoy armor which was meant to be for endgame players?

 

Regardless, stating that ranked and unranked PVP are the same thing is pure ignorance. Lot of people find ranked PVP too stressful. These people, however, are not demanding that they could get The Ascension and PVP armor from unranked PVP.

 

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > Or not... Seriously there's already a raid encounter (Escort) that's easier than many dungeons, or fractals, and yet still only ~25% of people have Li on their accounts, people aren't interested regardless of dificulty.

> And how that 25% relates to the number of people that do the raids regularly?

 

It doesn't? Its hard to come up with a metric for regularity from data in efficiency. But it does tell you, and that's the point i wanted to make, that even with something easier than Arah (and 69% of the sample in GW2 Efficiency have 2 or more Arah Tokens) available, only 25% of the sample were interested in attempting it, and thus have a Li on their inventory. Which makes it reasonable to conclude that ~70-75% of the player base is **not interested** in raids, regardless of difficulty.

Or at least don't care enough to learn that there's easy encounters with lower requirements than dungeons.

 

>

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > Mind you, there's a cool site with thousands of registered users (184 thousand accounts, pretty good sample, there's a lot of scientific studies done with a thousandth of that) that tracks a lot of stuff, one of them is Legendary Insights, and only ~25% of people have at least one, which means that only ~25% of people attempted a Raid encounter to completion. Given that Escort is pretty much impossible to fail (unless you quit really early), this kinda disproves the "many tried, but didn't stick" theory.

 

> First, i know a lot of players that started at VG, not Escort (and dropped out at this point). Second, Escort can fail easily. You think it's so easy and impossible to fail only because you do it in a group of players that already know it.

First, that only tells me they didn't care enough to learn about the easier encounters.

Second, no... I've done it dozens of times, i haven't raided in months (schedules changed and can't play as much), but when i did, that was the **one** weekly encounter i did because we could at most have 6-8 guys online for raids within my guild, so we'd pug anything from 2-5 guys weekly. I've done it with guys in 4 year old builds that had just returned to the game from pre-hot, and joined my group after i did open invitations on a post complaining about raid elitism. I've finished it several times with only half the raid alive.

There's only 2 rules that need to be known for that to succeed:

1) Group 1 goes in portals,

2) Stay on the grass.

 

Sure there are 3 roles that are important and i always got experienced people to do those: the chronomancer doing the portals, that was either me or a friend; the guy leading Glenna, that's usually my brother; and the guy looking out for back warg, usually a friend. But the first time we tried it it took us a few attempts to succeed (mostly me dying in the shrooms), but it isn't a case for spending hours on it and leaving frustrated without succeeding. I've spent MUCH, MUCH longer attempting Arah P4 (granted it was nerfed not long after my first completion, but Canis is still harder than anything escort throws at you) than i did attempting Escort.

The only way to make that easier than it already is (and the only factor that leads to "fails") would be to allow resurrecting.

 

>

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > Or at least, didn't try anywhere hard enough

> "Hard enough" is a relative concept. Unless you define "trying hard enough" as not quitting, in which case it's definitely true, but doesn't actually say anything.

Again, it took my first run at escort 5 attempts before we succeeded. IF you quit permanently after that many attempts, you're not trying hard enough. And what it says is that raids aren't your kind of content, like many people dislike PvP, yet you'd dismiss people asking for PvP vs AI because they dislike fighting other players, that's not what PvP is, the same thing applies to Raids, raids are supposed to be hard content, making them easy de-virtualizes them.

 

>

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > No, they are interested, but, like i explained before, and you carefully managed to ignore, crafting a single set of Legendary Armor (nevermind the 3 sets) requires players to complete hundreds of raid encounters, and regardless of how much you enjoy doing something, when you have to repeat it hundreds of times, if you have a easier way to do that you will. Doesn't mean that they dislike hard content, it means it gets repetitive.

> No, it means they are in it not because they like it, but to craft the legendary armor. Only in this case would they take easier, but slower way towards the armor.

People were asking for hard content and Raids way before there was even a inkling about Legendary Armor. People (me included) were stoked and happy for raids before we knew that Legendary Armor was its reward.

This sentence is pure projection. People that want easy mode raids just want the legendary armor, which is why they don't care about butchering the game-type, they just care about the reward.

That's how popular vote killed PvP, because the majority only cared about farming the rewards, and how that could be made better. And that's exactly what's happening here. People that don't care about Raiding, about the actual game-type and what it entails, and are just miffed that they want the bling and can't have it.

 

>

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > Raid rewards are already capped weekly? And you don't want a single reward, the more encounters players can complete in a week, the faster they get the Li for the legendary armour.

> > I'm not sure that you didn't know that fact or just forgot about it.

> Yes, but that's per boss, not fractal style. What i meant is that, instead of capping LI (which might cause some players to just stick to easier encounters and ignore hardest ones), you might do the same, but through offering LI by a restricted number of daily/weekly achieves (the same as in fractals where main rewards come from daily chests that are offered only for 3 selected fractals each day).

You're confusing things.

You still get the individual fractal rewards... Li is part of the individual Raid Reward. As are Magnetite shards (also capped weekly btw).

The thing with Daily fractal rewards is that they replaced a separate reward that already existed in the game. Fractals used to be sets of 3 or 4, remember? And when you fought a 0 fractal (10, 20, 30, 40, 50) you'd get a BOSS fractal, that would give out an extra reward.

When they made it that fractals were purely individual, they shifted the "Boss" reward to the daily chests, as simple as that.

I understand what you want, but if you apply the same style of dailies as Fractals (especially if they were weekly) you wouldn't be facing a "Farm escort till all quests done" scenario, but more like a "Oh sh*t this week we have to do Dhuum for the weeklies!" kind of scenario. Just like some people don't do fractal dailies when it includes Shattered Observatory, Twisted Nightmare, or the Twilight Oasis. Because it's deemed "too hard", or too long.

>

>

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > Casual players mostly don't read such guides. I'd say that many players don't even know those exist.

> > >

> > Because those casual players aren't interested in Raids...

> ...no, because they are _casual_. If they were reading guides, following the meta and rigorously practicing their rotations they wouldn't be called casuals. They'd be hardcores.

> This doesn't mean casuals aren't interested in raids (or any other content). It just means they act on their likes and dislikes in a casual way.

Well, Raids are **NOT** casual content. They were never meant that way. GW2 is already packed to the brim with casual content.

The problem here is that people are mad that they did to Legendary Armor what they should have done with Legendary everything. Make it actually a "legendary" feat to obtain, instead of something you can just throw money at.

And that's not really even true! Just pay someone to carry you... I know a guy that made like 5k gold speculating snowflakes a couple years ago, and he basically bought a few hundred Li worth of runs.

That's casual enough, no?