Please Overhaul Raids.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > >But well that was what raiding is about anyway.

> >

> > The *current* ones, yeah, *but they don't have to be!* Dream big!

>

> Actually they *do* have to be. Otherwise they'd just be more open world - faceroll content that litters your inventory with stuff for randomly pressing a button every once in a while. If that's your "big dream", then I honestly pity you.

 

I wouldn't go quite that far.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > >But well that was what raiding is about anyway.

> > >

> > > The *current* ones, yeah, *but they don't have to be!* Dream big!

> >

> > Actually they *do* have to be. Otherwise they'd just be more open world - faceroll content that litters your inventory with stuff for randomly pressing a button every once in a while. If that's your "big dream", then I honestly pity you.

>

> I wouldn't go quite that far.

 

We know, that's right. You'd go for open world faceroll content that still awards you with all the shinies.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > >But well that was what raiding is about anyway.

> > > >

> > > > The *current* ones, yeah, *but they don't have to be!* Dream big!

> > >

> > > Actually they *do* have to be. Otherwise they'd just be more open world - faceroll content that litters your inventory with stuff for randomly pressing a button every once in a while. If that's your "big dream", then I honestly pity you.

> >

> > I wouldn't go quite that far.

>

> We know, that's right. You'd go for open world faceroll content that still awards you with all the shinies.

 

I wouldn't go quite that far.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > >But well that was what raiding is about anyway.

> > > > >

> > > > > The *current* ones, yeah, *but they don't have to be!* Dream big!

> > > >

> > > > Actually they *do* have to be. Otherwise they'd just be more open world - faceroll content that litters your inventory with stuff for randomly pressing a button every once in a while. If that's your "big dream", then I honestly pity you.

> > >

> > > I wouldn't go quite that far.

> >

> > We know, that's right. You'd go for open world faceroll content that still awards you with all the shinies.

>

> I wouldn't go quite that far.

 

Yeah, he misspoke. You want faceroll content, but you don't think it should reward *all* the shinies. Merely those you personally are interested in.

[yann.1946]

 

> >But this was not really the op was talking about he even admitted he wouldn't mind completely gutting raids if it would allow him to have easier grouping option.

>

> Eh, tomayto/tomahto.

>

 

?

 

> >But well that was what raiding is about anyway.

>

> The *current* ones, yeah, *but they don't have to be!* Dream big!

>

 

Sure i can also dream conquest wasn't played against players. It doesn't mean it makes sense.

 

I agree their are problems with the current grouping system. But i think making a better way to find guilds would help so much more then an easy mode would.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > >But well that was what raiding is about anyway.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The *current* ones, yeah, *but they don't have to be!* Dream big!

> > > > >

> > > > > Actually they *do* have to be. Otherwise they'd just be more open world - faceroll content that litters your inventory with stuff for randomly pressing a button every once in a while. If that's your "big dream", then I honestly pity you.

> > > >

> > > > I wouldn't go quite that far.

> > >

> > > We know, that's right. You'd go for open world faceroll content that still awards you with all the shinies.

> >

> > I wouldn't go quite that far.

>

> Yeah, he misspoke. You want faceroll content, but you don't think it should reward *all* the shinies. Merely those you personally are interested in.

 

No, all the shinies, sure, but not faceroll easy. Moderate easy, like the rest of the game's content.

 

> @"yann.1946" said:

>Sure i can also dream conquest wasn't played against players. It doesn't mean it makes sense.

 

Why not? If that's what you want, fight for it! I know I'd certainly enjoy sPvP more if it wasn't against other players. The only time I play Overwatch is during their co-op seasons.

 

>I agree their are problems with the current grouping system. But i think making a better way to find guilds would help so much more then an easy mode would.

 

It would help in some cases, but reducing the "you can't win unless you can find 9 well-tuned, semi-meta, thoroughly trained players" aspect would certainly make finding a group a lot easier. Even if you do find a good guild, chances are that their schedules will not line up perfectly with your own, especially if you don't maintain a consistent schedule yourself.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > How it might work in gw2? Simple, look at ffxiv and wow, look at all of the different features and options there are for raiding, copy and paste.

> >

> > You realize that professions aren't aligned with roles in GW2 the same as in the ones you mentioned. So copy & paste won't work. Besides which, from that statement, it would be unclear to an ANet dev reading this what it is that you like nor why. So how would they justify to their boss that this is something that ANet should prioritize over other changes that are already planned?

> >

> > Look, I'm really not trying to jump on your lumpix about this: you seem to have a reasonable concern about finding groups to raid with (or to WvW with) and I can relate. I just don't see how your suggestions translate into addressing that issue. People already PUG raids and fractal CMs, so what does adding more infrastructure to the game do that makes it better?

>

> They could create an interface that shows the types of damage we have and our stats and balances us into groups. This is just a suggestion, they can make grouping any way they want, but I think something is needed besides everyone just figure it out. Whether it be making the raids easier so people don't have to be as selective or implementing a complex auto join function, or doing something as simple as removing the enrage timers on bosses, would all lead to ease of grouping. Playing raids now feels like raiding in 2004, where we all have to just figure it out. After 17 years of playing mmos, raiding has gone away from this in all other mmos except for gw2 where it's figure it out yourself and no alternatives for you.

>

> People seem to think that a lack of raiding options is synonymous with raid difficulty, which I'll never understand how having a hard time finding a group = poor skill at raiding.

 

People already wanted an automated grouping feature in 2012 for dungeons. ArenaNet already said at this time that it will never happen. A tool like that would have been way easier than for dungeons and it got never implemented. It will also never happen for raids.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"LadyKitty.6120" said:

> > So in other words, you (and many others) want to make so easy mode for raids that even story instances would be multiple times more difficult. From how it sounds, those players can't even do half of the personal story missions without 2-3 helpers. Can they actually do anything but roam around in open-world (and most likely q.q that HoT mobs are too evil)?

>

> I wouldn't go quite that far.

 

Maybe you should visit the forum after a new LS episode releases. There are always complains that it is too hard because they have to follow mechanics so they can kill bosses in a low time window. Yes many people can't handle story instances so we would need also difficulty levels there.

[yann.1946]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> >Sure i can also dream conquest wasn't played against players. It doesn't mean it makes sense.

>

> Why not? If that's what you want, fight for it! I know I'd certainly enjoy sPvP more if it wasn't against other players. The only time I play Overwatch is during their co-op seasons.

>

 

But that doesn't make it PVP anymore. Ofcourse you could ask for something different entirly. Most things are created with a specific exp in mind. Taking only parts of it is niet always a good thing.

 

> >I agree their are problems with the current grouping system. But i think making a better way to find guilds would help so much more then an easy mode would.

>

> It would help in some cases, but reducing the "you can't win unless you can find 9 well-tuned, semi-meta, thoroughly trained players" aspect would certainly make finding a group a lot easier. Even if you do find a good guild, chances are that their schedules will not line up perfectly with your own, especially if you don't maintain a consistent schedule yourself.

 

My point is that you could find a guild which matches you're schedule/ expectations easier. You should find a guild which matches you niet just a "good" guild.

 

About the needing 9 well prepared people to do it. Ik think we'll have to agree to disagree that this is a problem.

 

Lets make a bold statement. Even if their would be a last Boss which was designed to be unbeatable (without stupid things like nuking everyone at certain percentages of health) as long as this was comunicated it would nog be a problem

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> Maybe you should visit the forum after a new LS episode releases. There are always complains that it is too hard because they have to follow mechanics so they can kill bosses in a low time window. Yes many people can't handle story instances so we would need also difficulty levels there.

 

There will always be complaints, but people settle down and do them anyway. I beat the Eater of Souls on my first try.

 

> @"yann.1946" said:

>But that doesn't make it PVP anymore. Ofcourse you could ask for something different entirly. Most things are created with a specific exp in mind. Taking only parts of it is niet always a good thing.

 

Why are you arguing *against* your own idea? It's hard to be supportive when you waffle like this.

 

>My point is that you could find a guild which matches you're schedule/ expectations easier. You should find a guild which matches you niet just a "good" guild.

 

My point is that such a thing is not always possible, or desirable. One of the core features of GW2 is its "pick up and play" aspect, where whoever is around, they're fine. Raids in their current form fail this aspect.

 

>About the needing 9 well prepared people to do it. Ik think we'll have to agree to disagree that this is a problem.

 

Well, you can disagree that it's a problem *for you,* but it's clearly a problem for a lot of players.

 

>Lets make a bold statement. Even if their would be a last Boss which was designed to be unbeatable (without stupid things like nuking everyone at certain percentages of health) as long as this was comunicated it would nog be a problem

 

What benefit would that provide the game? To me, elements that do not provide fun do not serve a useful function and should be tweaked. At the very least, they should be completely avoidable without any penalty (such as missing out on an exclusive reward).

 

 

[yann.1946]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> >But that doesn't make it PVP anymore. Ofcourse you could ask for something different entirly. Most things are created with a specific exp in mind. Taking only parts of it is niet always a good thing.

>

> Why are you arguing *against* your own idea? It's hard to be supportive when you waffle like this.

>

Because i was not in favour of it, i'm giving an example of another thing which seems like a bad idea

 

> >My point is that you could find a guild which matches you're schedule/ expectations easier. You should find a guild which matches you niet just a "good" guild.

>

> My point is that such a thing is not always possible, or desirable. One of the core features of GW2 is its "pick up and play" aspect, where whoever is around, they're fine. Raids in their current form fail this aspect.

>

 

 

> >About the needing 9 well prepared people to do it. Ik think we'll have to agree to disagree that this is a problem.

>

> Well, you can disagree that it's a problem *for you,* but it's clearly a problem for a lot of players.

>

 

No i believe it is not a problem although people think it's a problem.

 

> >Lets make a bold statement. Even if their would be a last Boss which was designed to be unbeatable (without stupid things like nuking everyone at certain percentages of health) as long as this was comunicated it would nog be a problem

>

> What benefit would that provide the game? To me, elements that do not provide fun do not serve a useful function and should be tweaked. At the very least, they should be completely avoidable without any penalty (such as missing out on an exclusive reward).

>

>

 

To be this wall people will try to break down. The existence has an influence like Kerafyrm in EQ. No element provides fun to everyone so how do you determine which parts should be tweaked?

 

[Sykper.6583]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> Raids should be overhauled to add features so that everyone is accomodated. From people wanting easier difficulty to people who want additional features for grouping. 99% of other mmos that have raids do this. You guys can nitpick my post all you want or white knight it up, but what I'm saying makes sense, as having these features for raid has been an established precedent in most other mmos.

>

> Me simply requesting an overhaul in this regard is really just common sense.

 

It's also what killed Raiding in WoW during parts of WotLK and definitively after it. What you are asking for is LFR, and that eviscerated the social design aspects around raiding.

 

You've admitted you don't want to actually 'communicate' with others and would prefer to simply queue, go in, maybe kill some things and bail with a bunch of randoms. Sorry this isn't that sort of game, I prefer to use the LFG tool as it actually allows everyone to talk before going in.

[Raizel.8175]

What I gathered thus far from this thread:

 

* A lot of people who are raiding think that it's some kind of social happening. It isn't. I dare say most raid-encounters are designed so you don't need to be overly social anyway which is supplemented by the abyssmal class-balance. LFG-squads don't want to use TS/Discord; a lot of raiding-guilds actually don't want to either. In fact, due to the lack of a proper aggro-system (which could lead to more sophisticated encounters if ANet would want to (aggro-ping-pong and stuff like that)) and the one-way-tab-targetting-system, raids in GW2 are far from being as sophisticated as similar content in games which are more focused on instanced PvE. I really don't get why raids are that grossly overglorified in GW.

* Raids are considered to be a breach towards the original design-idea. They aren't. Considering their difficulty, you would be able to simply hop into them through LFG if the game would actually offer a decent difficulty-progression in OW- and story-content, thus people learn to carry their own weight. They don't though which leads to stupid LI/KP-requirements which hard-lock people out of content.

* GW2 already offers a full-blown trinity in raids. Chronos are your typical tank and Druids are your typical healer - people aren't really open-minded for alternatives anyway. A Queuing/PUG-feature would be doable - at least per encounter because that way, you could account for special jobs like HK at Deimos and other stuff.

* People still think that raids aren't GW2s end-content even if they actually are since they hold one of the main-rewards of the game: legendary armor. Thus, they should be far more accessible than they currently are.

* I still think that ANet should focus on making raids more accessible. First, they definitely should implement a decent guild-browser which enables training-guilds etc. to be public rather than as hidden as they currently are. Publicity is important - specifically in a game which is as unsociable as GW2 and doesn't feature some kind of world-chat or guild-advertisement-chat.

* Kitty is kinda cute talking about herself in the third person.

 

Yeah...

[Cerioth.7062]

Same people arguing about the same thing for 1000th time...

 

*yawn*

 

Raids are fine as they are. I can grab a couple guildies whenever, LFG the rest and get kills.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > >But well that was what raiding is about anyway.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The *current* ones, yeah, *but they don't have to be!* Dream big!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Actually they *do* have to be. Otherwise they'd just be more open world - faceroll content that litters your inventory with stuff for randomly pressing a button every once in a while. If that's your "big dream", then I honestly pity you.

> > > > >

> > > > > I wouldn't go quite that far.

> > > >

> > > > We know, that's right. You'd go for open world faceroll content that still awards you with all the shinies.

> > >

> > > I wouldn't go quite that far.

> >

> > Yeah, he misspoke. You want faceroll content, but you don't think it should reward *all* the shinies. Merely those you personally are interested in.

>

> No, all the shinies, sure, but not faceroll easy. Moderate easy, like the rest of the game's content.

 

The rest of the game *is* faceroll.

[alaskasnowgirl.6047]

What I would like to see is more puggable raids that don't require much coordination between players, just good dps and evading obvious things, which would allow for easier silent raids. When I run discord with GW2, my computer stops performing as well and my fps goes to shit, which prevents me from raiding anymore. Last time I tried Sabetha on discord I hit 2 fps and ran off platform because I couldn't see where I was going. I normally play at 20-30 fps when not running discord.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> Its kinda funny how casual most everyone playing GW2 is.

It _was_ a game aimed mostly at casuals. It's no surprise then that this group makes up a huge majority of all players. It's the exact opposite (how _hardcore_ some people can get in gw2) that constantly surprises me.

 

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"preacher.9370" said:

> > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > >

> > > what QoL improvements do you want exactly? (because the only thing ppl suggest here is easy mode which raids already are.)

> >

> > raids easy mode? then why all the lfg posting want experienced, specific builds, x amount of LI...?

>

> Because those ppl want a fast and clean clear.

If it's really so easy, it shouldn't matter that much. It only matters because it _isn't_ easy.

 

> @"LadyKitty.6120" said:

> To tell something abput the difficulty level, Kitty's taken a squadful of people to Cairn for the first time, most hadn't even been inside a raid instance before. She explained the mechanics and we got the kill on 6th try.

Let me give you my anectodal story.

We've made a group of people, started trying VG. 2 hours per run, 2-3 runs per week. We killed him for a first time after 4 or 5 _months_.

Some people get it faster, some get it slower.. If you have a group of the first kind of people only (or people that had a lot of experience on previous raid bosses), they may get it in few tries. Get a group of only the second kind of people, that had no previous raid experience whatsoever, and most of them will give up long before the first kill. Because going in weeks after weeks after weeks and see that progress is extremely slow is really discouraging to a majority of people.

Let's be serious, even most of the current veteran raiders would not have been able to take it (although they'd likely abandon their friends and switch group, instead of giving up, i guess)

 

 

[HardRider.2980]

Easier version of Raids is Fractals imho.

 

 

[Raizel.8175]

> @"alaskasnowgirl.6047" said:

> What I would like to see is more puggable raids that don't require much coordination between players, just good dps and evading obvious things, which would allow for easier silent raids. When I run discord with GW2, my computer stops performing as well and my fps goes to kitten, which prevents me from raiding anymore. Last time I tried Sabetha on discord I hit 2 fps and ran off platform because I couldn't see where I was going. I normally play at 20-30 fps when not running discord.

 

Most raids don't require that much coordination (seriously).

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > Its kinda funny how casual most everyone playing GW2 is.

> It _was_ a game aimed mostly at casuals. It's no surprise then that this group makes up a huge majority of all players. It's the exact opposite (how _hardcore_ some people can get in gw2) that constantly surprises me.

 

In relation to other MMORPGs, raids in GW2 are already fairly easy - at least their normal mode is. The problem with GW2s game-design is actually that ANet misunderstood easy for casual. Easy ≠ Casual. Most people don't seem to get that. What's hardcore about raids is the pseudo-elitism, the toxicity and the stupid entry-requirements, not the content itself.

 

> @"HardRider.2980" said:

> Easier version of Raids is Fractals imho.

 

That's not true. Fractals don't require the trinity-based gameplay raids do (well, at least not if people put in some effort).

 

 

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @"BOAsnake.7401" said:

> You actually sound like a spoiled child. "I dont wanna do something every raiders do, change it", have you even payed attention to the nunber of people disagreeing with you on this thread?

 

Well when you've raided in mmos for 17 years, been in top guilds, you might get burnt out on the grouping process too.

 

And yes compared to gw2 I have been "spoiled" by other mmos that have tons of features to ease the grouping process. I dunno why I shouldn't expect the same from gw2 since it functions like raiding from 2004 but it's the year 2018

[Digit.1823]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> Well when you've raided in mmos for 17 years, been in top guilds, you might get burnt out on the grouping process too

 

Well it's atleast good to know that your "suggestions" are born out of a completely personal problem that really does not merit anything, simply because you are so jaded after years of "top guild raiding" for the past 17 years.

 

Look man, if you're so tired or MMO raiding why not just focus on a different genre of gaming. I hear Fortnite is pretty popular.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @"Digit.1823" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > Well when you've raided in mmos for 17 years, been in top guilds, you might get burnt out on the grouping process too

>

> Well it's atleast good to know that your "suggestions" are born out of a completely personal problem that really does not merit anything, simply because you are so jaded after years of "top guild raiding" for the past 17 years.

>

> Look man, if you're so tired or MMO raiding why not just focus on a different genre of gaming. I hear Fortnite is pretty popular.

 

I'll stick to gw2 and see if they won't just change it thanks.

 

Also 17 years of raiding, what would I know about raids or grouping for that matter.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Digit.1823" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > Well when you've raided in mmos for 17 years, been in top guilds, you might get burnt out on the grouping process too

>

> Well it's atleast good to know that your "suggestions" are born out of a completely personal problem

The suggestions to add raids were also born out of completely personal problems.

 

 

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> Also 17 years of raiding, what would I know about raids or grouping for that matter.

Not a lot, apparently.

 

[Alehin.3746]

No. Raids are easy enough.

 

[Sephylon.4938]

why do topics just devolve into: "we need easy mode raids" and "no we don't". The original post, from what I interpret, isn't asking for easy mode raids, or a raid over haul for that matter (misguiding title), as it is for an overhaul of the entire lfg. It seems to be asking for the raid subgroup in the lfg to be further sub divided into raids>lfg/lfm>easy bosses/medium bosses/hard bosses. I think the idea in and of itself has some merit to it and could be worth discussing. As to the easy mode raids debate, please keep it [here](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/18677/do-raids-need-easy-normal-hard-difficulty-mode-merged#latest "here")