vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > (Yes, it's toxic when someone kicks you or yells at you for not doing more than X amount of DPS. But it's not toxic to kick you if your DPS is, let's say, less than half of what the average pug DPS does. If you do 2k with your weaver, I'm sorry but you're not doing your job -DPS. If you're support chrono and your boon uptime is 2, I'm sorry but you're not doing your job -giving me boons. If a kick or a comment is toxic depends on the situation.) but it is toxic if a dungeon requires x% dps and someone is kicked despite the fact that the party is doing x%+ overall. And that's what lower tuned dungeons/raids give, that lower scale that allows space to play without the crap from people who are blinkered by rote and pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 Considering it's their party, and that the majority have to agree on it, isn't it their right to do so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > Considering it's their party, and that the majority have to agree on it, isn't it their right to do so? lol such is the modern way of thinking. If you were playing a game with a group of 4 people in real life, would you 'kick' one of them if he was not as good but you were still going to win? ofc not. Normal people would consider that group of people to be pretty unpleasant. but lo online some people think this behaviour is ok, i.e toxic. Anyway bad behaviour has nothing to do with the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > Considering it's their party, and that the majority have to agree on it, isn't it their right to do so? > > lol such is the modern way of thinking. If you were playing a game with a group of 4 people in real life, would you 'kick' one of them if he was not as good but you were still going to win? ofc not. Normal people would consider that group of people to be pretty unpleasant. but lo online some people think this behaviour is ok, i.e toxic. Anyway bad behaviour has nothing to do with the point. Modern? I've been "kicked" from playing basketball and soccer ever since I was in grade school. They were just more obscure as to why they didn't want me on their team. And when they had to pick me because phys ed, they made me the "goalie" and decided to use an imaginary goal post instead of the real one. None of this is "modern" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > (Yes, it's toxic when someone kicks you or yells at you for not doing more than X amount of DPS. But it's not toxic to kick you if your DPS is, let's say, less than half of what the average pug DPS does. If you do 2k with your weaver, I'm sorry but you're not doing your job -DPS. If you're support chrono and your boon uptime is 2, I'm sorry but you're not doing your job -giving me boons. If a kick or a comment is toxic depends on the situation.) > > > but it is toxic if a dungeon requires x% dps and someone is kicked despite the fact that the party is doing x%+ overall. And that's what lower tuned dungeons/raids give, that lower scale that allows space to play without the crap from people who are blinkered by rote and pattern. Try to look at it from this perspective: if someone is really lacking in a group , the rest of the group has to compensate for that lacking player. Said in another way, the rest of the group is carrying that player. Is that fair? Do you think it is fair that a DPS player is doing their best to deal as many DPS as they can while another DPS player is just doing 2k? Is it fair to have to carry someone? Is it good to be carried? I don't think it is. It is unfair and bad for both sides. And I'll tell you, I was carried my first Dhuum kill. I was playing DPS, and I'm a bad DPS player; really, I'm just bad. We killed the boss, yes, but my DPS was too lacking and I died at 50%. That is bad for me, because I don't learn and I feel bad because I made things more difficult for my squad. And it's bad for everyone else because they had to compensate my lack of DPS and mechanic skill. Generally speaking, raids don't require a specific amount of DPS. It's not like "you need to do at least 20k to be able to kill". Nah. But it's not fair to have a 2k DPS and a 25k DPS; one is just not doing their job, that's being carried. So the problem is not the content, it's the people that are rude. But you'll never find anything completely free from idiots and toxicity. As I say, play how you want but don't expect to join groups where you don't belong to (being because of skill level or just different mentality). You can do raids at your own pace. Find your people and do them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > Considering it's their party, and that the majority have to agree on it, isn't it their right to do so? > > lol such is the modern way of thinking. If you were playing a game with a group of 4 people in real life, would you 'kick' one of them if he was not as good but you were still going to win? ofc not. Normal people would consider that group of people to be pretty unpleasant. but lo online some people think this behaviour is ok, i.e toxic. Anyway bad behaviour has nothing to do with the point. Oh but here's the thing, when i play with my friends i know their capabilities, and if they're sub-par i'll berate them harder than any pug, most likely, and i'll help them get up to par. I have no such inclination, or obligation towards a random guy that's only in my party to fill up a spot. And also, i've done that, several times. A friend is not doing great, i'll try to get him to pick up the pace, but if that doesn't work, well 9/10 he'll volunteer to get swapped, because my friends don't like to be a burden, in general. But there's been time that i've kicked them out... Heck even my brother. No one gets mad, because they're friends and they know that by keeping at it they're just dragging us down, and also that because we're his friends he'll get other opportunities at it, and that we'll help him improve beforehand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > Considering it's their party, and that the majority have to agree on it, isn't it their right to do so? > > > > lol such is the modern way of thinking. If you were playing a game with a group of 4 people in real life, would you 'kick' one of them if he was not as good but you were still going to win? ofc not. Normal people would consider that group of people to be pretty unpleasant. but lo online some people think this behaviour is ok, i.e toxic. Anyway bad behaviour has nothing to do with the point. > > Oh but here's the thing, when i play with my friends i know their capabilities, and if they're sub-par i'll berate them harder than any pug, most likely, and i'll help them get up to par. > I have no such inclination, or obligation towards a random guy that's only in my party to fill up a spot. > And also, i've done that, several times. A friend is not doing great, i'll try to get him to pick up the pace, but if that doesn't work, well 9/10 he'll volunteer to get swapped, because my friends don't like to be a burden, in general. But there's been time that i've kicked them out... Heck even my brother. No one gets mad, because they're friends and they know that by keeping at it they're just dragging us down, and also that because we're his friends he'll get other opportunities at it, and that we'll help him improve beforehand. > delightful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > (Yes, it's toxic when someone kicks you or yells at you for not doing more than X amount of DPS. But it's not toxic to kick you if your DPS is, let's say, less than half of what the average pug DPS does. If you do 2k with your weaver, I'm sorry but you're not doing your job -DPS. If you're support chrono and your boon uptime is 2, I'm sorry but you're not doing your job -giving me boons. If a kick or a comment is toxic depends on the situation.) > > > > > > but it is toxic if a dungeon requires x% dps and someone is kicked despite the fact that the party is doing x%+ overall. And that's what lower tuned dungeons/raids give, that lower scale that allows space to play without the crap from people who are blinkered by rote and pattern. > > Try to look at it from this perspective: if someone is really lacking in a group , the rest of the group has to compensate for that lacking player. Said in another way, the rest of the group is carrying that player. Is that fair? Do you think it is fair that a DPS player is doing their best to deal as many DPS as they can while another DPS player is just doing 2k? Is it fair to have to carry someone? Is it good to be carried? > > I don't think it is. It is unfair and bad for both sides. And I'll tell you, I was carried my first Dhuum kill. I was playing DPS, and I'm a bad DPS player; really, I'm just bad. We killed the boss, yes, but my DPS was too lacking and I died at 50%. That is bad for me, because I don't learn and I feel bad because I made things more difficult for my squad. And it's bad for everyone else because they had to compensate my lack of DPS and mechanic skill. > > Generally speaking, raids don't require a specific amount of DPS. It's not like "you need to do at least 20k to be able to kill". Nah. But it's not fair to have a 2k DPS and a 25k DPS; one is just not doing their job, that's being carried. > > So the problem is not the content, it's the people that are rude. But you'll never find anything completely free from idiots and toxicity. As I say, play how you want but don't expect to join groups where you don't belong to (being because of skill level or just different mentality). You can do raids at your own pace. Find your people and do them. easy modes open the way for more pleasant people to enjoy content without this kind of abhorrent shit as they have less of a dependency on these people to carry them. I don't care about carrying someone, in fact its quite satisfying to know you helped carry a group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > (Yes, it's toxic when someone kicks you or yells at you for not doing more than X amount of DPS. But it's not toxic to kick you if your DPS is, let's say, less than half of what the average pug DPS does. If you do 2k with your weaver, I'm sorry but you're not doing your job -DPS. If you're support chrono and your boon uptime is 2, I'm sorry but you're not doing your job -giving me boons. If a kick or a comment is toxic depends on the situation.) > > > > > > > > > but it is toxic if a dungeon requires x% dps and someone is kicked despite the fact that the party is doing x%+ overall. And that's what lower tuned dungeons/raids give, that lower scale that allows space to play without the crap from people who are blinkered by rote and pattern. > > > > Try to look at it from this perspective: if someone is really lacking in a group , the rest of the group has to compensate for that lacking player. Said in another way, the rest of the group is carrying that player. Is that fair? Do you think it is fair that a DPS player is doing their best to deal as many DPS as they can while another DPS player is just doing 2k? Is it fair to have to carry someone? Is it good to be carried? > > > > I don't think it is. It is unfair and bad for both sides. And I'll tell you, I was carried my first Dhuum kill. I was playing DPS, and I'm a bad DPS player; really, I'm just bad. We killed the boss, yes, but my DPS was too lacking and I died at 50%. That is bad for me, because I don't learn and I feel bad because I made things more difficult for my squad. And it's bad for everyone else because they had to compensate my lack of DPS and mechanic skill. > > > > Generally speaking, raids don't require a specific amount of DPS. It's not like "you need to do at least 20k to be able to kill". Nah. But it's not fair to have a 2k DPS and a 25k DPS; one is just not doing their job, that's being carried. > > > > So the problem is not the content, it's the people that are rude. But you'll never find anything completely free from idiots and toxicity. As I say, play how you want but don't expect to join groups where you don't belong to (being because of skill level or just different mentality). You can do raids at your own pace. Find your people and do them. > > easy modes open the way for more pleasant people to enjoy content without this kind of abhorrent kitten as they have less of a dependency on these people to carry them. I don't care about carrying someone, in fact its quite satisfying to know you helped carry a group. Yup it is, but sometimes you just want or need an easy, smooth kill. Moreover everyone can stop needing to be carried, you just have to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > (Yes, it's toxic when someone kicks you or yells at you for not doing more than X amount of DPS. But it's not toxic to kick you if your DPS is, let's say, less than half of what the average pug DPS does. If you do 2k with your weaver, I'm sorry but you're not doing your job -DPS. If you're support chrono and your boon uptime is 2, I'm sorry but you're not doing your job -giving me boons. If a kick or a comment is toxic depends on the situation.) > > > > > > > > > > > > but it is toxic if a dungeon requires x% dps and someone is kicked despite the fact that the party is doing x%+ overall. And that's what lower tuned dungeons/raids give, that lower scale that allows space to play without the crap from people who are blinkered by rote and pattern. > > > > > > Try to look at it from this perspective: if someone is really lacking in a group , the rest of the group has to compensate for that lacking player. Said in another way, the rest of the group is carrying that player. Is that fair? Do you think it is fair that a DPS player is doing their best to deal as many DPS as they can while another DPS player is just doing 2k? Is it fair to have to carry someone? Is it good to be carried? > > > > > > I don't think it is. It is unfair and bad for both sides. And I'll tell you, I was carried my first Dhuum kill. I was playing DPS, and I'm a bad DPS player; really, I'm just bad. We killed the boss, yes, but my DPS was too lacking and I died at 50%. That is bad for me, because I don't learn and I feel bad because I made things more difficult for my squad. And it's bad for everyone else because they had to compensate my lack of DPS and mechanic skill. > > > > > > Generally speaking, raids don't require a specific amount of DPS. It's not like "you need to do at least 20k to be able to kill". Nah. But it's not fair to have a 2k DPS and a 25k DPS; one is just not doing their job, that's being carried. > > > > > > So the problem is not the content, it's the people that are rude. But you'll never find anything completely free from idiots and toxicity. As I say, play how you want but don't expect to join groups where you don't belong to (being because of skill level or just different mentality). You can do raids at your own pace. Find your people and do them. > > > > easy modes open the way for more pleasant people to enjoy content without this kind of abhorrent kitten as they have less of a dependency on these people to carry them. I don't care about carrying someone, in fact its quite satisfying to know you helped carry a group. > > Yup it is, but sometimes you just want or need an easy, smooth kill. Moreover everyone can stop needing to be carried, you just have to learn. We are talking about easy content here already. Easy content is where people learn not to be carried, and where those who are not mean of spirit can just enjoy content without getting all anal about others performance because the tuning doesn't' punish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > Considering it's their party, and that the majority have to agree on it, isn't it their right to do so? > > > > lol such is the modern way of thinking. If you were playing a game with a group of 4 people in real life, would you 'kick' one of them if he was not as good but you were still going to win? ofc not. Normal people would consider that group of people to be pretty unpleasant. but lo online some people think this behaviour is ok, i.e toxic. Anyway bad behaviour has nothing to do with the point. > > Oh but here's the thing, when i play with my friends i know their capabilities, and if they're sub-par i'll berate them harder than any pug, most likely, and i'll help them get up to par. > I have no such inclination, or obligation towards a random guy that's only in my party to fill up a spot. > And also, i've done that, several times. A friend is not doing great, i'll try to get him to pick up the pace, but if that doesn't work, well 9/10 he'll volunteer to get swapped, because my friends don't like to be a burden, in general. But there's been time that i've kicked them out... Heck even my brother. No one gets mad, because they're friends and they know that by keeping at it they're just dragging us down, and also that because we're his friends he'll get other opportunities at it, and that we'll help him improve beforehand. > To be blunt, that sounds horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > Considering it's their party, and that the majority have to agree on it, isn't it their right to do so? > > > > > > lol such is the modern way of thinking. If you were playing a game with a group of 4 people in real life, would you 'kick' one of them if he was not as good but you were still going to win? ofc not. Normal people would consider that group of people to be pretty unpleasant. but lo online some people think this behaviour is ok, i.e toxic. Anyway bad behaviour has nothing to do with the point. > > > > Oh but here's the thing, when i play with my friends i know their capabilities, and if they're sub-par i'll berate them harder than any pug, most likely, and i'll help them get up to par. > > I have no such inclination, or obligation towards a random guy that's only in my party to fill up a spot. > > And also, i've done that, several times. A friend is not doing great, i'll try to get him to pick up the pace, but if that doesn't work, well 9/10 he'll volunteer to get swapped, because my friends don't like to be a burden, in general. But there's been time that i've kicked them out... Heck even my brother. No one gets mad, because they're friends and they know that by keeping at it they're just dragging us down, and also that because we're his friends he'll get other opportunities at it, and that we'll help him improve beforehand. > > > To be blunt, that sounds horrible. scary isn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > Considering it's their party, and that the majority have to agree on it, isn't it their right to do so? > > > > > > > > lol such is the modern way of thinking. If you were playing a game with a group of 4 people in real life, would you 'kick' one of them if he was not as good but you were still going to win? ofc not. Normal people would consider that group of people to be pretty unpleasant. but lo online some people think this behaviour is ok, i.e toxic. Anyway bad behaviour has nothing to do with the point. > > > > > > Oh but here's the thing, when i play with my friends i know their capabilities, and if they're sub-par i'll berate them harder than any pug, most likely, and i'll help them get up to par. > > > I have no such inclination, or obligation towards a random guy that's only in my party to fill up a spot. > > > And also, i've done that, several times. A friend is not doing great, i'll try to get him to pick up the pace, but if that doesn't work, well 9/10 he'll volunteer to get swapped, because my friends don't like to be a burden, in general. But there's been time that i've kicked them out... Heck even my brother. No one gets mad, because they're friends and they know that by keeping at it they're just dragging us down, and also that because we're his friends he'll get other opportunities at it, and that we'll help him improve beforehand. > > > > > To be blunt, that sounds horrible. > > scary isn't it. Well I get that in their context this is normal so they don't feel bad when it happens. But I would personally never do this and if a friend did it to me (kicking me) I'd feel pretty offended. Not because of not carrying me, but because not just asking me nicely to leave and explaining the reasons why I should. But as I say I understand in their context this doesn't offend. I guess it's like those friends who insult each other and no one gets mad lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > Considering it's their party, and that the majority have to agree on it, isn't it their right to do so? > > > > > > > > > > lol such is the modern way of thinking. If you were playing a game with a group of 4 people in real life, would you 'kick' one of them if he was not as good but you were still going to win? ofc not. Normal people would consider that group of people to be pretty unpleasant. but lo online some people think this behaviour is ok, i.e toxic. Anyway bad behaviour has nothing to do with the point. > > > > > > > > Oh but here's the thing, when i play with my friends i know their capabilities, and if they're sub-par i'll berate them harder than any pug, most likely, and i'll help them get up to par. > > > > I have no such inclination, or obligation towards a random guy that's only in my party to fill up a spot. > > > > And also, i've done that, several times. A friend is not doing great, i'll try to get him to pick up the pace, but if that doesn't work, well 9/10 he'll volunteer to get swapped, because my friends don't like to be a burden, in general. But there's been time that i've kicked them out... Heck even my brother. No one gets mad, because they're friends and they know that by keeping at it they're just dragging us down, and also that because we're his friends he'll get other opportunities at it, and that we'll help him improve beforehand. > > > > > > > To be blunt, that sounds horrible. > > > > scary isn't it. > > Well I get that in their context this is normal so they don't feel bad when it happens. But I would personally never do this and if a friend did it to me (kicking me) I'd feel pretty offended. Not because of not carrying me, but because not just asking me nicely to leave and explaining the reasons why I should. > > But as I say I understand in their context this doesn't offend. I guess it's like those friends who insult each other and no one gets mad lol. yeah, what came first behaviour like this in raiding or behaviour in real life, boggles the mind how people can be so rude and lack so much empathy and not even think its a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > (Yes, it's toxic when someone kicks you or yells at you for not doing more than X amount of DPS. But it's not toxic to kick you if your DPS is, let's say, less than half of what the average pug DPS does. If you do 2k with your weaver, I'm sorry but you're not doing your job -DPS. If you're support chrono and your boon uptime is 2, I'm sorry but you're not doing your job -giving me boons. If a kick or a comment is toxic depends on the situation.) > > > > > > > > > but it is toxic if a dungeon requires x% dps and someone is kicked despite the fact that the party is doing x%+ overall. And that's what lower tuned dungeons/raids give, that lower scale that allows space to play without the crap from people who are blinkered by rote and pattern. > > > > Try to look at it from this perspective: if someone is really lacking in a group , the rest of the group has to compensate for that lacking player. Said in another way, the rest of the group is carrying that player. Is that fair? Do you think it is fair that a DPS player is doing their best to deal as many DPS as they can while another DPS player is just doing 2k? Is it fair to have to carry someone? Is it good to be carried? > > > > I don't think it is. It is unfair and bad for both sides. And I'll tell you, I was carried my first Dhuum kill. I was playing DPS, and I'm a bad DPS player; really, I'm just bad. We killed the boss, yes, but my DPS was too lacking and I died at 50%. That is bad for me, because I don't learn and I feel bad because I made things more difficult for my squad. And it's bad for everyone else because they had to compensate my lack of DPS and mechanic skill. > > > > Generally speaking, raids don't require a specific amount of DPS. It's not like "you need to do at least 20k to be able to kill". Nah. But it's not fair to have a 2k DPS and a 25k DPS; one is just not doing their job, that's being carried. > > > > So the problem is not the content, it's the people that are rude. But you'll never find anything completely free from idiots and toxicity. As I say, play how you want but don't expect to join groups where you don't belong to (being because of skill level or just different mentality). You can do raids at your own pace. Find your people and do them. > > easy modes open the way for more pleasant people to enjoy content without this kind of abhorrent kitten as they have less of a dependency on these people to carry them. I don't care about carrying someone, in fact its quite satisfying to know you helped carry a group. Or maybe people should stop wanting to be carried? And then complain about the people doing the carrying.> @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > Considering it's their party, and that the majority have to agree on it, isn't it their right to do so? > > > > > > lol such is the modern way of thinking. If you were playing a game with a group of 4 people in real life, would you 'kick' one of them if he was not as good but you were still going to win? ofc not. Normal people would consider that group of people to be pretty unpleasant. but lo online some people think this behaviour is ok, i.e toxic. Anyway bad behaviour has nothing to do with the point. > > > > Oh but here's the thing, when i play with my friends i know their capabilities, and if they're sub-par i'll berate them harder than any pug, most likely, and i'll help them get up to par. > > I have no such inclination, or obligation towards a random guy that's only in my party to fill up a spot. > > And also, i've done that, several times. A friend is not doing great, i'll try to get him to pick up the pace, but if that doesn't work, well 9/10 he'll volunteer to get swapped, because my friends don't like to be a burden, in general. But there's been time that i've kicked them out... Heck even my brother. No one gets mad, because they're friends and they know that by keeping at it they're just dragging us down, and also that because we're his friends he'll get other opportunities at it, and that we'll help him improve beforehand. > > > To be blunt, that sounds horrible. It might to you, i won't begrudge you that, but i'm willing to bet i've carried more people through fractals, voluntarily, strangers or friends than you ever did. as for my friends, when we go into a content with the objective of doing it for a reason or other, and one of us can't get the mechanics, or is just sucking for this or that, they'll usually step out, especially when there's other people ready to give it a go in the group. I won't go "hey, you suck, bye", but more like "hey man, time to switch". And it'll be fine, because they know next time they stay on the group, and i'll be the first one to step out if they want to play. Of course i won't kick a guildmate out to replace him with a PuG, that'd be beyond ridiculous, but if there's another guild mate that wants to go and the other one is just not doing it, we switch. It's not something we do all the time, but it's happened, and will happen in the future, i'm sure. But "tough love" or horribleness aside, the point of my post is that the guy i was quoting was making a false equivalence. These "elitism" claims are never inside a premade group or a group of friends, it's about PuGs and getting people through LFG, that's where these issues arise. And in those cases you should be ready to pull your weight unless otherwise stated. I have no qualms on getting a bunch of newbies and touring them through fractals, but only when that's the purpose of the party. When you join a T4 group you are expected to have a certain level of performance and experience, because that's the highest level of experience (CM are a separate special case) within a 4 tier system. If you picked that, you should be ready to perform, and should be ready for people to expect you to perform. Unless otherwise stated, of course, in the LFG.> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > Considering it's their party, and that the majority have to agree on it, isn't it their right to do so? > > > > > > > > > > > > lol such is the modern way of thinking. If you were playing a game with a group of 4 people in real life, would you 'kick' one of them if he was not as good but you were still going to win? ofc not. Normal people would consider that group of people to be pretty unpleasant. but lo online some people think this behaviour is ok, i.e toxic. Anyway bad behaviour has nothing to do with the point. > > > > > > > > > > Oh but here's the thing, when i play with my friends i know their capabilities, and if they're sub-par i'll berate them harder than any pug, most likely, and i'll help them get up to par. > > > > > I have no such inclination, or obligation towards a random guy that's only in my party to fill up a spot. > > > > > And also, i've done that, several times. A friend is not doing great, i'll try to get him to pick up the pace, but if that doesn't work, well 9/10 he'll volunteer to get swapped, because my friends don't like to be a burden, in general. But there's been time that i've kicked them out... Heck even my brother. No one gets mad, because they're friends and they know that by keeping at it they're just dragging us down, and also that because we're his friends he'll get other opportunities at it, and that we'll help him improve beforehand. > > > > > > > > > To be blunt, that sounds horrible. > > > > > > scary isn't it. > > > > Well I get that in their context this is normal so they don't feel bad when it happens. But I would personally never do this and if a friend did it to me (kicking me) I'd feel pretty offended. Not because of not carrying me, but because not just asking me nicely to leave and explaining the reasons why I should. > > > > But as I say I understand in their context this doesn't offend. I guess it's like those friends who insult each other and no one gets mad lol. > > yeah, what came first behaviour like this in raiding or behaviour in real life, boggles the mind how people can be so rude and lack so much empathy and not even think its a problem. Wow, taking it a bit too far and generalising aren't we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > No, because if that's what you want you should be playing world bosses. As I've suggested numerous times. Expecting the top-tier rewards in the game for something that can't be possibly kitten up is just absurd. Again, 1. There are currently no "raid encounter world bosses," not even the Bloodstone Fen one, so NO, *I am not asking for them to be world bosses, I am asking for easier raids,* and 2. There is no such thing as "top tier rewards," there are just rewards, and different ones are assigned to different content. People who enjoy the current raids are no more entitled to anything than players who do not. >And why can't I? Exclusivity works very well. You want that reward? You play by the rules of getting it. Simple. Whatever that might be, it's not "balancing." You can't just slap that word on things to which it does not apply. >If we assumed you were right, then we'd have to conclude raids are played by the worst players and world bosses are where the top players are. Because raids then to fail much more often than world bosses. Right? World bosses are designed so that even if a large number of players are terrible, the event still succeeds. Raids are designed so that even a small number of bad players can crash it. If you remove all the bad players from *both* types of content, then the actual content of raids is not all that difficult. When players describe having a raid "on farm," all it means is that they've winnowed out the appropriate amount of other players. The change I would like to see done is to decrease the odds that a bad player can ruin a raid for everyone else. > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > Considering it's their party, and that the majority have to agree on it, isn't it their right to do so? > > > > lol such is the modern way of thinking. If you were playing a game with a group of 4 people in real life, would you 'kick' one of them if he was not as good but you were still going to win? ofc not. Normal people would consider that group of people to be pretty unpleasant. but lo online some people think this behaviour is ok, i.e toxic. Anyway bad behaviour has nothing to do with the point. > > Modern? I've been "kicked" from playing basketball and soccer ever since I was in grade school. They were just more obscure as to why they didn't want me on their team. And when they had to pick me because phys ed, they made me the "goalie" and decided to use an imaginary goal post instead of the real one. None of this is "modern" And you don't consider that to be "toxic" behavior? > @"nia.4725" said: >Try to look at it from this perspective: if someone is really lacking in a group , the rest of the group has to compensate for that lacking player. Said in another way, the rest of the group is carrying that player. Is that fair? Do you think it is fair that a DPS player is doing their best to deal as many DPS as they can while another DPS player is just doing 2k? Is it fair to have to carry someone? Is it good to be carried? So long as the content is easy enough that the other players do not have to take on an *undue burden* to support the other player, then I don't see it as a worthy problem. Now if a player is being intentionally lazy, like just sitting out most encounters, or obviously not paying attention and being rude about it, then sure, that's cause enough to kick them, but if they seem to be trying, but they just didn't bring the right gear, or they just don't seem to be particularly good, and attempts at coaching them are unsuccessful, then it should still not be reason to kick them IF the rest of the group can complete the content just fine. > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: >Oh but here's the thing, when i play with my friends i know their capabilities, and if they're sub-par i'll berate them harder than any pug, most likely, and i'll help them get up to par. Well that's between you and your friends. If they are fine with that, if they still consider you their friend afterward, then that's fine. But it's not acceptable behavior toward a stranger that does not know you. > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > yeah, what came first behaviour like this in raiding or behaviour in real life, boggles the mind how people can be so rude and lack so much empathy and not even think its a problem. I just got finished watching Lost in Space, it was a major plot point. ;) > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > But "tough love" or horribleness aside, the point of my post is that the guy i was quoting was making a false equivalence. These "elitism" claims are never inside a premade group or a group of friends, it's about PuGs and getting people through LFG, that's where these issues arise. And in those cases you should be ready to pull your weight unless otherwise stated. I try to pull be weight as best I can, I don't want to be a burden on anyone, but if the content demands more from me than I care to give, then rather than giving up on the content entirely, I'd like to have an alternate version that simply demands *less* of me, so that I *can* pull my own weight and *not* burden anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > Forgive me for saying so, but those guys sound like real kittenhats. I'm glad I don't have to associate with them in game, that sounds like a horrible experience. > > > > I get your point, but I think it depends. I mean, there's nothing wrong in wanting people with a experience similar to yours in your squad. It's natural. You don't always have the will or the time to help newer players or to spend more time killing a boss. Sometimes you just want a smooth, fast kill, and high requirements reduce the chance of not enough experienced players joining. But as I say it depends on how you treat people -you can say "I'm sorry, I want more experienced people" and that's okay, or you can say "sorry no noobs here" and that's not okay at all. > > > > > > > > > > ask yourself this, if you were doing a dungeon in GW2 would you apply the same mentality? I'm sure you don't, so think why is that - difficulty is the key. When myself or guildies group up with people, we dont 'evaluate' them, we simple try and enjoy the run, and don't get triggered by diversity, its all part of the fun. If you tune a raid to the same difficulty level as a dungeon (10 man dungeon in effect) then things should be relaxed enough you can focus on enjoying stuff rather than being anal/fearful about performance > > Imagine a game where hundreds of thousands of players all treated each other this way - measuring everything in terms if performance, toxic right. The thing is, running the faceroll content gets boring. I can only enjoy it so much. Then it becomes running the same track, blasting the same faceless mobs into oblivion while sipping my coffee half-awake. Nothing memorable, nothing exciting. If I didn't have the raids to challenge me on a weekly basis, I'd have quit long ago. So yeah, difficulty is key. But the reasons differ for different players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > Forgive me for saying so, but those guys sound like real kittenhats. I'm glad I don't have to associate with them in game, that sounds like a horrible experience. > > > > > > I get your point, but I think it depends. I mean, there's nothing wrong in wanting people with a experience similar to yours in your squad. It's natural. You don't always have the will or the time to help newer players or to spend more time killing a boss. Sometimes you just want a smooth, fast kill, and high requirements reduce the chance of not enough experienced players joining. But as I say it depends on how you treat people -you can say "I'm sorry, I want more experienced people" and that's okay, or you can say "sorry no noobs here" and that's not okay at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ask yourself this, if you were doing a dungeon in GW2 would you apply the same mentality? I'm sure you don't, so think why is that - difficulty is the key. When myself or guildies group up with people, we dont 'evaluate' them, we simple try and enjoy the run, and don't get triggered by diversity, its all part of the fun. If you tune a raid to the same difficulty level as a dungeon (10 man dungeon in effect) then things should be relaxed enough you can focus on enjoying stuff rather than being anal/fearful about performance > > > > Imagine a game where hundreds of thousands of players all treated each other this way - measuring everything in terms if performance, toxic right. > > The thing is, running the faceroll content gets boring. I can only enjoy it so much. Then it becomes running the same track, blasting the same faceless mobs into oblivion while sipping my coffee half-awake. Nothing memorable, nothing exciting. > If I didn't have the raids to challenge me on a weekly basis, I'd have quit long ago. So yeah, difficulty is key. But the reasons differ for different players. That's cool. That's you, and that's fine, so long as you recognize that not everyone is the same way. If you want to keep doing the same raids, you can, but some of us are looking for something a bit different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > Forgive me for saying so, but those guys sound like real kittenhats. I'm glad I don't have to associate with them in game, that sounds like a horrible experience. > > > > > > > > I get your point, but I think it depends. I mean, there's nothing wrong in wanting people with a experience similar to yours in your squad. It's natural. You don't always have the will or the time to help newer players or to spend more time killing a boss. Sometimes you just want a smooth, fast kill, and high requirements reduce the chance of not enough experienced players joining. But as I say it depends on how you treat people -you can say "I'm sorry, I want more experienced people" and that's okay, or you can say "sorry no noobs here" and that's not okay at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ask yourself this, if you were doing a dungeon in GW2 would you apply the same mentality? I'm sure you don't, so think why is that - difficulty is the key. When myself or guildies group up with people, we dont 'evaluate' them, we simple try and enjoy the run, and don't get triggered by diversity, its all part of the fun. If you tune a raid to the same difficulty level as a dungeon (10 man dungeon in effect) then things should be relaxed enough you can focus on enjoying stuff rather than being anal/fearful about performance > > > > > > Imagine a game where hundreds of thousands of players all treated each other this way - measuring everything in terms if performance, toxic right. > > > > The thing is, running the faceroll content gets boring. I can only enjoy it so much. Then it becomes running the same track, blasting the same faceless mobs into oblivion while sipping my coffee half-awake. Nothing memorable, nothing exciting. > > If I didn't have the raids to challenge me on a weekly basis, I'd have quit long ago. So yeah, difficulty is key. But the reasons differ for different players. > > That's cool. That's you, and that's fine, so long as you recognize that not everyone is the same way. > > If you want to keep doing the same raids, you can, but some of us are looking for something a bit different. 95% of the PvE content not good enough? Gluttony is considered a sin in some religions, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > Forgive me for saying so, but those guys sound like real kittenhats. I'm glad I don't have to associate with them in game, that sounds like a horrible experience. > > > > > > > > > > I get your point, but I think it depends. I mean, there's nothing wrong in wanting people with a experience similar to yours in your squad. It's natural. You don't always have the will or the time to help newer players or to spend more time killing a boss. Sometimes you just want a smooth, fast kill, and high requirements reduce the chance of not enough experienced players joining. But as I say it depends on how you treat people -you can say "I'm sorry, I want more experienced people" and that's okay, or you can say "sorry no noobs here" and that's not okay at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ask yourself this, if you were doing a dungeon in GW2 would you apply the same mentality? I'm sure you don't, so think why is that - difficulty is the key. When myself or guildies group up with people, we dont 'evaluate' them, we simple try and enjoy the run, and don't get triggered by diversity, its all part of the fun. If you tune a raid to the same difficulty level as a dungeon (10 man dungeon in effect) then things should be relaxed enough you can focus on enjoying stuff rather than being anal/fearful about performance > > > > > > > > Imagine a game where hundreds of thousands of players all treated each other this way - measuring everything in terms if performance, toxic right. > > > > > > The thing is, running the faceroll content gets boring. I can only enjoy it so much. Then it becomes running the same track, blasting the same faceless mobs into oblivion while sipping my coffee half-awake. Nothing memorable, nothing exciting. > > > If I didn't have the raids to challenge me on a weekly basis, I'd have quit long ago. So yeah, difficulty is key. But the reasons differ for different players. > > > > That's cool. That's you, and that's fine, so long as you recognize that not everyone is the same way. > > > > If you want to keep doing the same raids, you can, but some of us are looking for something a bit different. > > 95% of the PvE content not good enough? Gluttony is considered a sin in some religions, you know. Again, it's not a matter of "enough." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > Forgive me for saying so, but those guys sound like real kittenhats. I'm glad I don't have to associate with them in game, that sounds like a horrible experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > I get your point, but I think it depends. I mean, there's nothing wrong in wanting people with a experience similar to yours in your squad. It's natural. You don't always have the will or the time to help newer players or to spend more time killing a boss. Sometimes you just want a smooth, fast kill, and high requirements reduce the chance of not enough experienced players joining. But as I say it depends on how you treat people -you can say "I'm sorry, I want more experienced people" and that's okay, or you can say "sorry no noobs here" and that's not okay at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ask yourself this, if you were doing a dungeon in GW2 would you apply the same mentality? I'm sure you don't, so think why is that - difficulty is the key. When myself or guildies group up with people, we dont 'evaluate' them, we simple try and enjoy the run, and don't get triggered by diversity, its all part of the fun. If you tune a raid to the same difficulty level as a dungeon (10 man dungeon in effect) then things should be relaxed enough you can focus on enjoying stuff rather than being anal/fearful about performance > > > > > > > > > > Imagine a game where hundreds of thousands of players all treated each other this way - measuring everything in terms if performance, toxic right. > > > > > > > > The thing is, running the faceroll content gets boring. I can only enjoy it so much. Then it becomes running the same track, blasting the same faceless mobs into oblivion while sipping my coffee half-awake. Nothing memorable, nothing exciting. > > > > If I didn't have the raids to challenge me on a weekly basis, I'd have quit long ago. So yeah, difficulty is key. But the reasons differ for different players. > > > > > > That's cool. That's you, and that's fine, so long as you recognize that not everyone is the same way. > > > > > > If you want to keep doing the same raids, you can, but some of us are looking for something a bit different. > > > > 95% of the PvE content not good enough? Gluttony is considered a sin in some religions, you know. > > Again, it's not a matter of "enough." OK, so let's make some analysis. Currently you have the following content that suits your tastes and therefore you can enjoy: * Open world * Story * Dungeons * Low-level fractals Currently I have the following content that suits my tastes and therefore I can enjoy: * Raids * High-level fractals / 2 fractal CMs. Tell you what. When these seem more evenly matched, I'll agree with your request. Say, when we have hard mode story and open world. Deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > OK, so let's make some analysis. > > Currently you have the following content that suits your tastes and therefore you can enjoy: > * Open world > * Story > * Dungeons > * Low-level fractals > > Currently I have the following content that suits my tastes and therefore I can enjoy: > * Raids > * High-level fractals / 2 fractal CMs. > > Tell you what. When these seem more evenly matched, I'll agree with your request. Say, when we have hard mode story and open world. Deal? And again, it's not about quantity. I have no objection to having hard mode story or open world, they already have things like challenge motes and special achievements that require going above and beyond the minimum. I don't think that ANet would feel these worth adding because the audience isn't there, but I certainly wouldn't argue *against* it if that's something you genuinely would enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > OK, so let's make some analysis. > > > > Currently you have the following content that suits your tastes and therefore you can enjoy: > > * Open world > > * Story > > * Dungeons > > * Low-level fractals > > > > Currently I have the following content that suits my tastes and therefore I can enjoy: > > * Raids > > * High-level fractals / 2 fractal CMs. > > > > Tell you what. When these seem more evenly matched, I'll agree with your request. Say, when we have hard mode story and open world. Deal? > > And again, it's not about quantity. I have no objection to having hard mode story or open world, they already have things like challenge motes and special achievements that require going above and beyond the minimum. I don't think that ANet would feel these worth adding because the audience isn't there, but I certainly wouldn't argue *against* it if that's something you genuinely would enjoy. Oh, but it *is* about quantity. You're the one crying for months because a tiny fraction of the game isn't suited to your tastes. If you cared about the principle, you should have been advocating the hard modes *first*, not the easy ones, as the people who like *that* have so much less to enjoy in the game. And winning that, you should *then* proceed to the easy modes, making a much more compelling and legitimate case. What you actually care about, though, are the free rewards. Sad story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: >Oh, but it is about quantity. You're the one crying for months because a tiny fraction of the game isn't suited to your tastes. No, I've been talking about *this* portion of the game. I haven't been complaining about WvW. I don't play that either. It's not about quantity. >If you cared about the principle, you should have been advocating the hard modes first, No, that's not *my* principle. You're free to though, nobody's trying to stop you. >What you actually care about, though, are the free rewards. Sad story. Not free, earned, just through a different path. And I've never been evasive about wanting a path to the rewards, nor that it's only part of my objective here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > Considering it's their party, and that the majority have to agree on it, isn't it their right to do so? > > > > > > lol such is the modern way of thinking. If you were playing a game with a group of 4 people in real life, would you 'kick' one of them if he was not as good but you were still going to win? ofc not. Normal people would consider that group of people to be pretty unpleasant. but lo online some people think this behaviour is ok, i.e toxic. Anyway bad behaviour has nothing to do with the point. > > > > Modern? I've been "kicked" from playing basketball and soccer ever since I was in grade school. They were just more obscure as to why they didn't want me on their team. And when they had to pick me because phys ed, they made me the "goalie" and decided to use an imaginary goal post instead of the real one. None of this is "modern" > > And you don't consider that to be "toxic" behavior? > Not in the least bit. Especially doing so would acomplish nothing, and I'd still suck at basketball and soccer. Plus they had nothing on me on pokemon or yugioh.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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