Please Overhaul Raids.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > >It doesnt benefit players that dont play raids but players that DO. Its a unique reward for them. But i guess you dont (or dont want to) understand concept of unique rewards.

> > > > >

> > > > > But how does it benefit players who do raid to have *other* players *not* get something? That's what I don't understand. It's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people outside *do not.* I just odn't see how that is a "benefit."

> > > >

> > > > Since we're using real world analogies would it not be more appropriate to say that it's like having a restaurant where people get food, but with the *added* "perk" that people _**who don't pay**_ do not?

> > > >

> > > > I sure think so.

> > >

> > > Ok, let's go with that. So. . . where's the perk there? Why should the people in the restaurant NOT want "people who don't pay" to also be fed? I've never heard of a restaurant that operates on that principle, whereas I *have* heard of several restaurants that explicitly work on the principle of "you pay for your meal, and it will also pay for the meal for one or more other people."

> > >

> > > Again, I think that in general, you just greatly underestimate your fellow human being.

> > >

> >

> > Rofl. When I eat at a restauranr i dont want others that didnt pay to be fed.

> > 1) if they get food too then servicec will be slower/less space in restaurant

> > 2) if someone can get food for free i will not pay for it, why should i pay when others dont have to.

> >

> > We had komunism (comunism? Pls correct me, thx) in our country. After it fell there are still people that want it back. Sure it had some qualities like more money for retired people but rest is crazy.

> > For those that dont know how it worked:

> > -Everyone was paid the same as others with same education and time in this job.

> > -you cannot own your own shop for example, everything belonged to state.

> > - everyone that had no (official) job was a criminal

> >

> > On paper it might seem nice but this is how it looked like:

> >

> > When my father was at school he went to do a part time job in a factory. He was assembeling something (and payed for one assembeled) and proffesionals did 100 per hour (which was the limit). First day he managed 80 per hour and next day 130. After thet the workers came to him and said that he needs to stop because he makes them look bad. In reality they could have made 200 per hour but there was no reason to since they wouldnt get more money/promotion...

> >

> > Another story: my day needed a house so he started working as a person that heats buildings (put coal into big fireplace). He had assigned fireplace. But he only needed to come there once and not stay there for hours. So he made a deal (others normaly did that too) with artists (because it wasnt official job) that they would say they do this job and he would do it for them (illegal too - stealing jobs). That way my father was doing jobs thet were ment for 10 people and made 5 times more then leader of big factories with university degree.

> >

> > Since there everything was for same cost there was 1 butcher in the village. Official price might be 10 for chicken but he said he doesnt have any and hid it. Since you couldnt buy it elsewhere you had to give him money so je let you buy it.

> >

> > One of my favorite book series is sword of truth. Spoilers: In one part of the book main character is working in a state that works on similar principles as those above. When he starts money is taken from his salary to feed the ill so his salary is close to nothing. So then he announce that he is sick and cannot work and gets paid more then he did when he was working.

> >

> > There was a saying: Who doesnt cheat steals from his family

> >

> > The idea is nice but in reality it benefits those that cheat or those that dont work.

> >

> > This looks to me like something very similar as your restaurant.

>

> We'll the biggest downfall of communism has always been the human condition.

>

> Glad their are other people who enjoy the sword of truth Books. Altough they are written with a capatalist mindset.

> A book where communism is described in a working societie would be children of mother earth by Thea Beckman

 

Exactly. Sword of truth describes the bad (but definitly not unrealistic) parts of this society. In theory it is great if everyone is good person. I don know if it was sokrates, platon or aristoteles that said that democracy is a bad system because then you are ruled by the stupidest (because they are majority) as is shown in my country every election or recently in America. Every system has flaws and we need to work with them. Same as gw2 system has some flaws .

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> Another pve leggy armor set (which wont be gated behind raids) should be made available. The skin should be a rework of the illustrious skin ( in comparison to the wvw and pvp skins, which are reskins).

On the contrary, it should be a full-fledged legendary skin (though not necessarily a transforming one), not merely a reskin. And SPvP/WvW skins should get a rework as well, to make it fair (because them being a reskins now _isn't_ fair).

 

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> I don know if it was sokrates, platon or aristoteles that said that democracy is a bad system because then you are ruled by the stupidest (because they are majority) as is shown in my country every election or recently in America.

That's actually intentional. The main point of democracy doesn't lie in it being effective at governing or actually accomplishing things. Totalitarian systems do that part way better in general. The Democracy was designed with one primary point in mind - it exists to protect the people from the rulers. Because it is the only system that acknowledges that people are flawed. It's a system in which it _should_ be hard to accomplish any meaningful change.

Of course, if you forget that point, and start to give the rulers more power (or let them ignore the constrains placed on them) in the name of efficiency, the democracy will start to crumble.

 

 

 

[Raizel.8175]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides.

> > > > > > > > > > > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction.

> > > > > > > > > > > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > And I already presented my compromise. Easy raids (everything cut to half) with no kp,li, or ascended drops. If you are interested in story this should be enough for you.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Also i proposed ascended weapon(s)of your choice for killing every easy boss once

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > meh ascended gear drops like sweetie as you know fine well and is not a meaningful reward considering wvw/spvp/other raids all offer legendary gear that has stat swaps - which should be no different here.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Its not about the reward. Here are my points what easy raids should represent:

> > > > > > > > 1) option to get into raids

> > > > > > > > 2) option to experiance story without doing raids

> > > > > > > > 3) option to prepare for specific mechanics

> > > > > > > > 4) option to enjoy raids without the need for specific comp

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > And what it shouldnt be:

> > > > > > > > 1) content that is abused to farm

> > > > > > > > 2) easy way for lazy players to get raid specific rewards

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > re positives, ofc rewards is a factor, this is a mmorpg. Your first point is addressed with weekly lockouts. RE Lazy that's a well worn accusation made by raiders but If a player can happily enjoy and farm content for a year in wvw then this should be no different, i.e why on earth would you NOT give long term goals to easy mode raiders.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I would. But not the same as normal raids

> > > > >

> > > > > neither would I, it has to be different legendary armor from normal, so normal mode gear remains exclusive and unique for existing raiders. In effect this gives everyone 2 sets of legendary armor to go for, win win.

> > > >

> > > > Another raid-legendary-armor (though easy mode) would be nonsense. It would be better for the game to create a fractal/PoF-legendary armor just like raid-legendary-armor is a raid/HoT-armor.

> > > >

> > > > ...and tbh, the only problem about raids is accessibility. I mean, I'm raiding for approx. 6-7 weeks now, have 54 LI and killed everything from w1 till w4; the only thing that seperates me from the precursor-set are AmGems for the Crystalline Heart. Most encounters aren't that hard. Some requirements are just stupid.

> > >

> > > Its not 'nonsense' just as wvw and spvp legendary gear is there for long term goals, so should there be for easier raids. People don't want to play existing raids, they have a certain gameplay style that is really badly dated for many (repeat pattern/wipe/repeat pattern/wipe) The legendary gear doesn't even need to be animated like envoy, its just needs stat swap to feel valuable.

> >

> > The thing is that there already is a raid-amor that's also tied to HoT-OW-content though. So why not release a fractal-armor that's also tied to PoF-OW-content? Would be much more reasonable than a second raid-set.

>

> people want easier mode 10+ man instances, if its made, a new legendary armor set is common sense. That's not to say fractals shouldn't have a different set again ofc, different discussion.

 

It's nonsense. One of the main-reasons raids are as inaccessible as they are is because the game is utterly unsociable, thus gathering ten decent people isn't as easy as it seems. It's far more reasonable to create a second legendary set for instanced 5-man-content. Besides: We already have 10-man-instances for legendary armor. I don't see the need for unnecessary redundancy here. Just my opinion though.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > Another raid-legendary-armor (though easy mode) would be nonsense. It would be better for the game to create a fractal/PoF-legendary armor just like raid-legendary-armor is a raid/HoT-armor.

>

> I don't mind a Fractal set in principle, but it really wouldn't solve anything, since fundamentally Raids and Fractals are very similar, targeting very similar audiences. If there's going to be a second PvE armor set then it should be for a different audience. Adding a Fractal set now would be like if there were no WvW set, but you could get two different sets from both Ranked and Unranked PvP.

 

I don't get why there shouldn't be any form of effort (yeah, yeah... brainless grind is also a form of effort, but seriously...) for legendary stuff. Farming SW or Istan like a bot for weeks/months isn't quite what I'd call legendary tbh. Raids and fractals may be similar, but they're also vastly different in means of accessibility. If you'd exclude 99cm and 100cm as prerequisites for fractal legendary armor (since you also don't need to do raid cms for raid legendary armor), fractal legendary armor would still be easily obtainable. I'm clearing my daily fractals every day without some fancy meta-setup and am still done with dailies and recs in an hour if searching for people doesn't take that long (most people are annoyingly adamant about needing a personal healyou-chan in fractals).

 

...and the thing about ow legendary armor? People would probably cry that they have to work together with other people since you certainly have to include events like Serpent's Ire and we know how people cry because of that one.

 

> > ...and tbh, the only problem about raids is accessibility. I mean, I'm raiding for approx. 6-7 weeks now, have 54 LI and killed everything from w1 till w4; the only thing that seperates me from the precursor-set are AmGems for the Crystalline Heart. Most encounters aren't that hard. Some requirements are just stupid.

>

> I mean that's the goal of having an "easy" mode, to increase the accessibility, to make it more casual so that you can just get in there and get it done.

 

GW2-Raids are already fairly casual. If you want to increase accessibility, you rather have to implement stuff like decent socialization tools (guild browser etc.), make the base game harder (so people aren't a total catastrophe in terms of more sophisticated PvE; we already know how that turns out though, just look at hard-gating-mechanism like the Eater of Souls that got nerfed into oblivion), and create some more reliable skill-indicators (the LI/KP-system is pure garbage).

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

>I am not saying that helping someone is bad. I am saying beeing forced to help is bad. I would help people but on my conditions.

 

And this is why I want an easy mode raid, so that players don't *need* help from anyone, they can go in and carry their own weight, even if they can't carry the weight of an existing raid.

 

Btw, about your communism example with the factory workers not wanting to "overproduce." I've experienced that a bit myself. I used to work at a UPS (postal) facility as a summer job in school, and I would pull boxes off a belt and load them, in a particular order, onto delivery vans. I started with one van, and then they noticed I was handling that efficiently, so before I was done I was up to. . . three, maybe four vans at a time. I got the impression that some on the line felt I was over-reaching on that, although they didn't make much noise about it. On the other hand, if on that first day I hadn't done a good job, I wouldn't have been immediately fired and had to find a new job, I "succeeded" at that day, even though I made mistakes, and I did better and better the next days.

 

But the reason that factory story mattered is because that was a place that *needed* workers to produce. The more product each worker assembled, the more they would have, and that's good in a general sense, because a more productive factory is more profitable, and also just puts more products out for people that need them. So by "slow rolling" the work, the workers were doing less than they were capable of, and that is bad for the business. I can understand why that is a bad thing.

 

But this is not work.

 

This is a game.

 

Nothing is produced here. There is no VALUE in labor here, beyond what value *you* choose to place on it. If you choose to value your participation in a raid as "worth quite a bit," that's nice, but if someone else values that same amount of effort as "not worth it," then he's right too. To borrow your example, if one worker assembled 100, another 200, and another 50, they are ALL "doing it right" equally, if that is how *they* prefer to apply their time. If every worker "produces 200", the net result is not actually *better* in any way than if they'd all "produced 50," nothing about the state of the world is changed by that.

 

This is why real world "hard work" examples really make absolutely no sense in a game analogy, because the primary reason people get paid in the real world is not "because they worked hard," it's because "they accomplished a task that someone was willing to pay to have it done." Games have no tasks that *need to get done,* so the only value that actually matters in a game is to reward players for *enjoying themselves,* not to reward them for accomplishing arbitrary goals that nobody needs them to accomplish.

 

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> Is there a point to this thread anymore? We have had the "You are sinning!" argument, the "Why shouldnt I be entitled to free shinies?" argument, the "Well, maybe anet could introduce bots in pvp for people to get pvp skins and rewards", the "trading is cheating! You are a cheater!" argument, now it is "not paying in restaurants is a thing, too!".

 

And now we've moved back into the "I'm bored with this thread but can't seem to just 'not participate,' so please shut it all down for me" posts. It's a cycle.

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

>That's actually intentional. The main point of democracy doesn't lie in it being effective at governing or actually accomplishing things. Totalitarian systems do that part way better in general. The Democracy was designed with one primary point in mind - it exists to protect the people from the rulers. Because it is the only system that acknowledges that people are flawed. It's a system in which it should be hard to accomplish any meaningful change.

Of course, if you forget that point, and start to give the rulers more power (or let them ignore the constrains placed on them) in the name of efficiency, the democracy will start to crumble.

 

The other benefit to Democracy is that when you give people a *stake* in the system, even if they choose not to use it, even if they use it poorly, then they at least feel somewhat responsible for it. Even if they get outvoted, their vote was considered in the process. When you have a totalitarian system, it's just "those other guys," and there's "nothing you can really do about it, short of revolution."

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> I don't get why there shouldn't be any form of effort (yeah, yeah... brainless grind is also a form of effort, but seriously...) for legendary stuff. Farming SW or Istan like a bot for weeks/months isn't quite what I'd call legendary tbh.

 

Let's be straight, *nothing* in the game is "truly legendary." Especially not "completing a bunch of raids." Thousands of people are running around with the Shining Blade or the Flameseeker Prophesies. Nothing about "Legendary" items is *actually* "legendary," so can we please set aside these ridiculous standards about the minimum requirements to acquire one? It's just a fancy skin, in many ways not as good as ones that can be bought on the TP.

 

>If you'd exclude 99cm and 100cm as prerequisites for fractal legendary armor (since you also don't need to do raid cms for raid legendary armor), fractal legendary armor would still be easily obtainable.

 

With 0 AR?

 

>GW2-Raids are already fairly casual.

 

But obviously they are not casual *enough,* or this wouldn't be an issue.

 

I get that you're "above this game," but most of the people who play this game are not, and they *enjoy* the difficulty that the rest of the game has, *not* the difficulty that raids or high fractals have.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > I don't get why there shouldn't be any form of effort (yeah, yeah... brainless grind is also a form of effort, but seriously...) for legendary stuff. Farming SW or Istan like a bot for weeks/months isn't quite what I'd call legendary tbh.

>

> Let's be straight, *nothing* in the game is "truly legendary." Especially not "completing a bunch of raids." Thousands of people are running around with the Shining Blade or the Flameseeker Prophesies. Nothing about "Legendary" items is *actually* "legendary," so can we please set aside these ridiculous standards about the minimum requirements to acquire one? It's just a fancy skin, in many ways not as good as ones that can be bought on the TP.

 

You're totally missing the sense of accomplishment upon crafting a legendary. Many people may don't like that you can't buy G2-legendaries/precursors off the TP, but I quite like that you have a journey to do even though some parts are fairly annoying. It's the same with legendary armor. Once you finish the collections and went through some annoying parts (like Cairn), you will have a certain feeling of accomplishment that's actually a big part of legendary crafting in general. It's not just a skin.

 

> >If you'd exclude 99cm and 100cm as prerequisites for fractal legendary armor (since you also don't need to do raid cms for raid legendary armor), fractal legendary armor would still be easily obtainable.

>

> With 0 AR?

 

You can either buy AR-infusions or farm them yourself. Truly isn't that hard, especially since the return for investing in 150 AR is fairly high. You have a tiered fractal-system anyway with increasing AR-requirements.

 

> >GW2-Raids are already fairly casual.

>

> But obviously they are not casual *enough,* or this wouldn't be an issue.

 

Raids in fact are "casual" enough. It's just that the main-game is too easy to the point where it doesn't force anyone to actually learn their respective class and basic game-mechanics.

 

> I get that you're "above this game," but most of the people who play this game are not, and they *enjoy* the difficulty that the rest of the game has, *not* the difficulty that raids or high fractals have.

 

I'm certainly not "above this game". I still suck at certain bosses like Sloth or Sabetha and haven't done W5 yet. Still, GW2 is far from being my first MMORPG, so I dare say that I know a thing or two about MMORPGs in general to judge certain (game design) aspects.

 

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction.

> > > > > > > > > > > > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > And I already presented my compromise. Easy raids (everything cut to half) with no kp,li, or ascended drops. If you are interested in story this should be enough for you.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Also i proposed ascended weapon(s)of your choice for killing every easy boss once

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > meh ascended gear drops like sweetie as you know fine well and is not a meaningful reward considering wvw/spvp/other raids all offer legendary gear that has stat swaps - which should be no different here.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Its not about the reward. Here are my points what easy raids should represent:

> > > > > > > > > 1) option to get into raids

> > > > > > > > > 2) option to experiance story without doing raids

> > > > > > > > > 3) option to prepare for specific mechanics

> > > > > > > > > 4) option to enjoy raids without the need for specific comp

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > And what it shouldnt be:

> > > > > > > > > 1) content that is abused to farm

> > > > > > > > > 2) easy way for lazy players to get raid specific rewards

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > re positives, ofc rewards is a factor, this is a mmorpg. Your first point is addressed with weekly lockouts. RE Lazy that's a well worn accusation made by raiders but If a player can happily enjoy and farm content for a year in wvw then this should be no different, i.e why on earth would you NOT give long term goals to easy mode raiders.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I would. But not the same as normal raids

> > > > > >

> > > > > > neither would I, it has to be different legendary armor from normal, so normal mode gear remains exclusive and unique for existing raiders. In effect this gives everyone 2 sets of legendary armor to go for, win win.

> > > > >

> > > > > Another raid-legendary-armor (though easy mode) would be nonsense. It would be better for the game to create a fractal/PoF-legendary armor just like raid-legendary-armor is a raid/HoT-armor.

> > > > >

> > > > > ...and tbh, the only problem about raids is accessibility. I mean, I'm raiding for approx. 6-7 weeks now, have 54 LI and killed everything from w1 till w4; the only thing that seperates me from the precursor-set are AmGems for the Crystalline Heart. Most encounters aren't that hard. Some requirements are just stupid.

> > > >

> > > > Its not 'nonsense' just as wvw and spvp legendary gear is there for long term goals, so should there be for easier raids. People don't want to play existing raids, they have a certain gameplay style that is really badly dated for many (repeat pattern/wipe/repeat pattern/wipe) The legendary gear doesn't even need to be animated like envoy, its just needs stat swap to feel valuable.

> > >

> > > The thing is that there already is a raid-amor that's also tied to HoT-OW-content though. So why not release a fractal-armor that's also tied to PoF-OW-content? Would be much more reasonable than a second raid-set.

> >

> > people want easier mode 10+ man instances, if its made, a new legendary armor set is common sense. That's not to say fractals shouldn't have a different set again ofc, different discussion.

>

> It's nonsense. One of the main-reasons raids are as inaccessible as they are is because the game is utterly unsociable, thus gathering ten decent people isn't as easy as it seems. It's far more reasonable to create a second legendary set for instanced 5-man-content. Besides: We already have 10-man-instances for legendary armor. I don't see the need for unnecessary redundancy here. Just my opinion though.

>

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > Another raid-legendary-armor (though easy mode) would be nonsense. It would be better for the game to create a fractal/PoF-legendary armor just like raid-legendary-armor is a raid/HoT-armor.

> >

> > I don't mind a Fractal set in principle, but it really wouldn't solve anything, since fundamentally Raids and Fractals are very similar, targeting very similar audiences. If there's going to be a second PvE armor set then it should be for a different audience. Adding a Fractal set now would be like if there were no WvW set, but you could get two different sets from both Ranked and Unranked PvP.

>

> I don't get why there shouldn't be any form of effort (yeah, yeah... brainless grind is also a form of effort, but seriously...) for legendary stuff. Farming SW or Istan like a bot for weeks/months isn't quite what I'd call legendary tbh. Raids and fractals may be similar, but they're also vastly different in means of accessibility. If you'd exclude 99cm and 100cm as prerequisites for fractal legendary armor (since you also don't need to do raid cms for raid legendary armor), fractal legendary armor would still be easily obtainable. I'm clearing my daily fractals every day without some fancy meta-setup and am still done with dailies and recs in an hour if searching for people doesn't take that long (most people are annoyingly adamant about needing a personal healyou-chan in fractals).

>

> ...and the thing about ow legendary armor? People would probably cry that they have to work together with other people since you certainly have to include events like Serpent's Ire and we know how people cry because of that one.

>

> > > ...and tbh, the only problem about raids is accessibility. I mean, I'm raiding for approx. 6-7 weeks now, have 54 LI and killed everything from w1 till w4; the only thing that seperates me from the precursor-set are AmGems for the Crystalline Heart. Most encounters aren't that hard. Some requirements are just stupid.

> >

> > I mean that's the goal of having an "easy" mode, to increase the accessibility, to make it more casual so that you can just get in there and get it done.

>

> GW2-Raids are already fairly casual. If you want to increase accessibility, you rather have to implement stuff like decent socialization tools (guild browser etc.), make the base game harder (so people aren't a total catastrophe in terms of more sophisticated PvE; we already know how that turns out though, just look at hard-gating-mechanism like the Eater of Souls that got nerfed into oblivion), and create some more reliable skill-indicators (the LI/KP-system is pure garbage).

>

>

Do you have e trouble with trying to find people for Metas or World boss? That’s what I think the popularity would be like.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> You're totally missing the sense of accomplishment upon crafting a legendary. Many people may don't like that you can't buy G2-legendaries/precursors off the TP, but I quite like that you have a journey to do even though some parts are fairly annoying. It's the same with legendary armor. Once you finish the collections and went through some annoying parts (like Cairn), you will have a certain feeling of accomplishment that's actually a big part of legendary crafting in general. It's not just a skin.

No. _You_ have a feeling of accomplishment. I didn't. For me it was just a feeling of _relief_. That "accomplishment" you speak of, for me was nothing more than annoyance.

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> Raids in fact are "casual" enough. It's just that the main-game is too easy to the point where it doesn't force anyone to actually learn their respective class and basic game-mechanics.

So, they are _not_ in fact casual enough when compared to the rest of the game.

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> I'm certainly not "above this game". I still suck at certain bosses like Sloth or Sabetha and haven't done W5 yet. Still, GW2 is far from being my first MMORPG, so I dare say that I know a thing or two about MMORPGs in general to judge certain (game design) aspects.

What makes you think people speaking for easy mode _aren't_ MMORPG veterans as well?

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

>You're totally missing the sense of accomplishment upon crafting a legendary. Many people may don't like that you can't buy G2-legendaries/precursors off the TP, but I quite like that you have a journey to do even though some parts are fairly annoying. It's the same with legendary armor.

 

and that works fine, IF you enjoy the process they've chosen to attach the item in question to. If you *can't* enjoy that process, then it's an awful drudging grind the entire way that adds ZERO positive value to your life. Ideally they give you multiple options, so that the odds are that you'll enjoy at least *one* of the options presented.

 

>Once you finish the collections and went through some annoying parts (like Cairn), you will have a certain feeling of accomplishment that's actually a big part of legendary crafting in general. It's not just a skin.

 

That's not a universal experience. When I got The Ascension, I was happy that I finally had it, but it didn't make me happier about the months of annoying PvP it took to get there. I still felt it was an overall awful process, which is why I refuse to repeat it over Legendary armor.

 

>Raids in fact are "casual" enough.

 

Again, that's impossible. They're casual enough for *you,* that doesn't make them casual enough for the hundreds of thousands that *don't* raid.

 

> It's just that the main-game is too easy to the point where it doesn't force anyone to actually learn their respective class and basic game-mechanics.

 

The game is the game. The game is not wrong for being that way, the millions of players that have enjoyed the game are not wrong for enjoying it, if there's anyone wrong in this situation, it would be you for expecting it to be more complicated than it is. That's the problem with raids, not that they are "too hard/complicated/coordinated" when compared against every other game on the market, but that they are when compared to the rest of GW2. That's why I'm trying to get a version that is simply *more in line with the rest of the game.*

 

 

 

 

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> >I am not saying that helping someone is bad. I am saying beeing forced to help is bad. I would help people but on my conditions.

>

> And this is why I want an easy mode raid, so that players don't *need* help from anyone, they can go in and carry their own weight, even if they can't carry the weight of an existing raid.

>

 

If someone come to me and ask WHY they cannot carry their weight and WHAT should they do to not be a burden I will explain to him what to focus on, some tricks both with setting and in game that makes it easier..... But player that doesnt want this kind of help but instead want from me to do it for him will not get my help. Thats a rule I set to myself when i first encountered someone that needed help and i live by it since.

 

Also raids are teambased content. Its idea is that everyone need to carry each other. And you have to adapt, both during actual raid and when joining. For example if you see your dps is low then you go for slow cc/updraft on gorseval. And when you know you have problems in raids its better to pick sb3 instead of weaver.

 

> This is why real world "hard work" examples really make absolutely no sense in a game analogy, because the primary reason people get **paid** in the real world is not "because they worked hard," it's because "they accomplished a **task** that **someone** was willing to pay to have it done."

>

 

Someone=Anet

money=Envoy armor

task=legendary armor achievment

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > This is why real world "hard work" examples really make absolutely no sense in a game analogy, because the primary reason people get **paid** in the real world is not "because they worked hard," it's because "they accomplished a **task** that **someone** was willing to pay to have it done."

> Someone=Anet

> money=Envoy armor

> task=legendary armor achievment

So, if anet decides to pay the legendary armor for accomplishing completely differnt task, it will be equally fine.

 

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > This is why real world "hard work" examples really make absolutely no sense in a game analogy, because the primary reason people get **paid** in the real world is not "because they worked hard," it's because "they accomplished a **task** that **someone** was willing to pay to have it done."

> > Someone=Anet

> > money=Envoy armor

> > task=legendary armor achievment

> So, if anet decides to pay the legendary armor for accomplishing completely differnt task, it will be equally fine.

>

 

If Anet decides that envoy should be given for free i will respect that ad adapt. But i guess there might be some players that would (rightfuly) feel coned by this and that would reflect on their future investments in the game. It is much easier to lose a player then to gain a player. No player ever (i think) joins the game noly because there is envoy armor locked behind raids. They might join for raids as a whole but not just for armor. On the other hand player might quit the game after they give something he worked hard for for free away. If they add another option to get envoy armor it should feel as same CHALANGE as getting it from raids.

 

Here is a joke that reflect this: There is a mathematician in soviet union. There are not enough workers at shipyard and he discovers that he will be paid more there so he go work there. Then boss of the shipyard needs new acountants so he says that anyone that will participate in math course will need to work less hours so he joins. He is sleeping there and one day he is called to the board to calculate Area of a sphere. He doesnt remember the formula so he decide to create the formula using integrations. When he finish he sees that he made a mistake. He is looking at the board and searching for mistake and then another "student" there tell him that he swaped edges of the interval.

 

As long as there will be no raider (and i mean someone that does raids not only for legendary armor) that decide to get legendary armor the other way it should be somewhat ok. I dont have to be happy about it but it is not my decision.

[Miki.3862]

Oh boy, this thread is large. There is a good chance this has been suggested somewhere in the 34 pages of this thread but I'm not reading through all of that bickering and nonsense so here we go.

 

The main problem here is not with the Raids themselves, rather the people harder content like this can attract and also the kind of attitudes that come with challenging and time consuming content.

 

Thing is, it's going to take quite a bit of effort on your part to find and join a group and really quite difficult to find one you actually get along with and get results on top. It sucks but it's nothing new to MMO's, so my suggestion for ArenaNet would be to improve Guilds and their benefits, as well as this creating a proper menu for Raid 'Squads'

in the guild UI that can give you stats and perhaps bonuses for consistent play as a specific team, think of the PvP Team menu in the guild tab but updated with much more.

 

The problem I've found is that there is very little reason to stick to a guild that wants to start raiding but is only starting out, perhaps if you could use the guild hall to give raid bonuses for groups consisting of all guild members, it'd help newer parties out without destroying the balance of the raids themselves and make it less attractive to just look for random pugs which would appear to be the way most average players experience raiding, while the more try hard or toxic players are using guilds (but of course not all are like this)

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> If Anet decides that envoy should be given for free i will respect that ad adapt. But i guess there might be some players that would (rightfuly) feel coned by this and that would reflect on their future investments in the game.

Notice, that this didn't stop Anet from introducing raids in the first place.

 

> It is much easier to lose a player then to gain a player. No player ever (i think) joins the game noly because there is envoy armor locked behind raids. They might join for raids as a whole but not just for armor. On the other hand player might quit the game after they give something he worked hard for for free away.

First, it would not be for free. We both know it's just an argument meant to put the other side in bad light, and not a real description of the easy mode side stance. Second, yes, some people might leave because of that. Just as some people might leave because of raid exclusivity and of legendary armor being locked behind that content. And, considering it's not a raid-centric game in its core, and that raids are relatively tame compared to other games that simply do it better, i'd say that it's more probable for someone to leave GW2 because of raids than to join it just for them.

 

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> If they add another option to get envoy armor it should feel as same CHALANGE as getting it from raids.

If it feels exactly the same, then what's the point? And if it's different kind of challenge, raiders already said it wouldn't count because nothing compares to raids.

 

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> So, they are _not_ in fact casual enough when compared to the rest of the game.

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Again, that's impossible. They're casual enough for *you,* that doesn't make them casual enough for the hundreds of thousands that *don't* raid.

> That's why I'm trying to get a version that is simply *more in line with the rest of the game.*

 

I shortened your quotes. Sorry in advance if that does offend you. You can't honestly tell me with a straight face that the main game is not too easy when people don't even learn basic gameplay. How much whining have we had in the forums because the Eater of Souls fight was too hard, how much whining do we still have about Events like Serpent's Ire, how much whining have we had about the bosses in LWS4E2? All that whining can be summed up to people being unable to execute basic gameplay. Stuff like dodge attacks, don't stand in fancy red circles, break defiance-bars when they pop up, etc. That's not only just basic gameplay; that's also a large part of how raids work. And people should be able to expect people to know basic gameplay, else MMORPGs can't work. So: How about making the main game a bit more difficult to teach people how to carry their own weight (which MMORPGs should do in the first place)?

 

 

[thrag.9740]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > What would your "practice mode" offer that the current raids do not? How would it be better?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Edit: Practice mode is there for players to understand the mechanics so that they can complete the normal raids to gain LI and KP.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > A practice mode would just act as a dumb down guide for players who have never done the raid. Most groups now require experience and a lot of it. As a beginner, you will never be able to begin a raid or find a group. What practice mode offers is that it will let players be able to go through the actions of the raid with other beginners or others who are looking to be better at the mechanics as well. Most people are hesitant to find a group because they are afraid of being a liability to the group. Most groups will kick players who do not have any LI and KP. Practice mode allows players who do not have LI and KP to band together to acquire experience. It will also let players know that Raiding isn't as difficult as others make it seem. The difficult part is gaining the LI and KP to find groups. Practice mode will expand the raiding community and make it less of a hassle to create groups or find players by making the raiding community larger.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Edit: As for the practice mode itself:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 1. It should only go through the mechanics of the raid and shouldn't reward or penalize players for doing it.

> > > > > > > > > 2. The bosses should deal less damage, but have the same mechanics as the raid.

> > > > > > > > > 3. Players will now understand which skills and traits to bring for the many different raids in GW2.

> > > > > > > > > 4. Experienced raiders also gain benefit from practice mode if they do not know the mechanics of any single raid. A lot of players are comfortable with a couple of raids and not all of them. It will also allow the testing of builds for raids without it being too much of a hassle.

> > > > > > > > > 5. Create and LFG for practice mode.

> > > > > > > > > 6. Practice mode will cost less gold because players won't have to use consumables to learn the mechanics. Some consumables cost 1g+ for 30 minutes.

> > > > > > > > > 7. It will indirectly benefit ArenaNet by creating longevity for the players which in time will increase their sales on their online shop.

> > > > > > > > > 8. It will expand the raiding community and decrease the amount of scrutiny between beginners and experienced players.

> > > > > > > > > 9. It will also make it so that more DPS classes are accepted because of the experience acquired because your DPS is a lot different in raids than against kittybot.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Ok, that basically describes the easy mode we've been discussing, with the exception being that while I want it to be *usable* for practice as you describe it, I also want it to be a self-supporting game mode of its own, with rewards and everything. It would offer less rewards than normal raids, roughly 1/3 as much, but would allow players to progress *without* having to ever step foot in the actual raids. I feel that there is a value in a training mode, but that without rewards it will likely get underused, as players will quickly either move on to the actually rewarding mode, or they will give up entirely.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Pick one

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Why?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Ah I see, your not correctly comprehending what I am pointing out. I am not literally telling you to pick one. I am pointing out that you claim to be flexible in your means to achieve a goal, yet you choose to completely ignore a route to your goal which allows you to achieve raid rewards by playing any content you want.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Are you talking cheating? No, I will not cheat to achieve the goal. It has to be a path to earn the rewards through direct gameplay, not paying someone else to play for me. "Flexible" doesn't mean throwing principles completely out the window.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Possibly true, but like back when Dungeons had the "zerk warrior meta," there was still no issue finding non-meta groups. The "hardcorz speed farming" groups may exist, but they don't want lowbie newbs on their team anyway, so they would obviously want to advertise their group in a way that discourages those players from trying to join. If a "casual easy mode" player is looking for a group to join, it shouldn't be that hard to see which is which, and even though mistakes will be made, it's still better than no option at all.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > How is that cheating? Is it cheating if someone buy materials from TP? Is it cheating if someone pay someone to open specific boss? Is it cheating if someone is giben gold for opening his/her home instance to another? From my point it is all the same thing. You pay gold to player for something they did. Its less cheating then buying gems for real money.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It's cheating if you're paying another player to play the game for you. Period.

> > > > >

> > > > > For me, it would be cheating too. I will get my kills and titles myself, or I won't get them. But that doesn't justify your "I don't want to play normal raids so anet pls pls pls nerf them for me and also give me the envoy armor".

> > > >

> > > > The players don't define the rules, the creators do, and Anet has been clear. How in the world the word cheating became subjective is beyond me.

> > >

> > > You have misunderstood the sentence. I'm not saying what is cheating and what's not. I'm saying that, for me, buying raids feels like cheating. It isn't, but in my moral system it feels like that. If I ever bought a kill I would feel like a cheater. Anet dictates the rules but no one can dictate how I feel about myself.

> > >

> > > Do you understand now?

> >

> > There are players in every mmo who choose to personally farm all materials they need, and literally never use the trading post because they dont believe in letting other players play the game for them. That is fine, it is their choice. But, if they come into the forums and wine for 40 pages that it is too hard to earn the rewards they want, and demand that everything is made easier to suit their unique play style, while calling the act of trading, 'cheating' that is ridiculous.

>

> Don't confuse me with Ohoni, I am a raider and I am against easy mode. Is that hard to understand that buying raids, FOR ME, FOR MYSELF, TALKING ONLY ABOUT MYSELF feels like cheating? I am not saying that it is, "officially" or whatever you want to call it. I am saying that me buying raids has no place in my moral system because I would feel like a cheater. I don't care if you buy raids, but I wouldn't do it.

>

> Really, is it that hard? This feels like a great post to include a meme in.

 

Oh I totally did confuse you with Ohoni, sorry.

 

I still think calling it cheating is stupid. Cheating has a well defined definition. Breaking the rules of the game. Your making up your own rules, which is fine, but I think your warping the definition of cheating to be whatever you want it to be. I think there is probably a better word for going against your own moral code....

 

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/unethical?s=t

 

[nia.4725]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > What would your "practice mode" offer that the current raids do not? How would it be better?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Edit: Practice mode is there for players to understand the mechanics so that they can complete the normal raids to gain LI and KP.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > A practice mode would just act as a dumb down guide for players who have never done the raid. Most groups now require experience and a lot of it. As a beginner, you will never be able to begin a raid or find a group. What practice mode offers is that it will let players be able to go through the actions of the raid with other beginners or others who are looking to be better at the mechanics as well. Most people are hesitant to find a group because they are afraid of being a liability to the group. Most groups will kick players who do not have any LI and KP. Practice mode allows players who do not have LI and KP to band together to acquire experience. It will also let players know that Raiding isn't as difficult as others make it seem. The difficult part is gaining the LI and KP to find groups. Practice mode will expand the raiding community and make it less of a hassle to create groups or find players by making the raiding community larger.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Edit: As for the practice mode itself:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > 1. It should only go through the mechanics of the raid and shouldn't reward or penalize players for doing it.

> > > > > > > > > > 2. The bosses should deal less damage, but have the same mechanics as the raid.

> > > > > > > > > > 3. Players will now understand which skills and traits to bring for the many different raids in GW2.

> > > > > > > > > > 4. Experienced raiders also gain benefit from practice mode if they do not know the mechanics of any single raid. A lot of players are comfortable with a couple of raids and not all of them. It will also allow the testing of builds for raids without it being too much of a hassle.

> > > > > > > > > > 5. Create and LFG for practice mode.

> > > > > > > > > > 6. Practice mode will cost less gold because players won't have to use consumables to learn the mechanics. Some consumables cost 1g+ for 30 minutes.

> > > > > > > > > > 7. It will indirectly benefit ArenaNet by creating longevity for the players which in time will increase their sales on their online shop.

> > > > > > > > > > 8. It will expand the raiding community and decrease the amount of scrutiny between beginners and experienced players.

> > > > > > > > > > 9. It will also make it so that more DPS classes are accepted because of the experience acquired because your DPS is a lot different in raids than against kittybot.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Ok, that basically describes the easy mode we've been discussing, with the exception being that while I want it to be *usable* for practice as you describe it, I also want it to be a self-supporting game mode of its own, with rewards and everything. It would offer less rewards than normal raids, roughly 1/3 as much, but would allow players to progress *without* having to ever step foot in the actual raids. I feel that there is a value in a training mode, but that without rewards it will likely get underused, as players will quickly either move on to the actually rewarding mode, or they will give up entirely.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Pick one

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Why?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Ah I see, your not correctly comprehending what I am pointing out. I am not literally telling you to pick one. I am pointing out that you claim to be flexible in your means to achieve a goal, yet you choose to completely ignore a route to your goal which allows you to achieve raid rewards by playing any content you want.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Are you talking cheating? No, I will not cheat to achieve the goal. It has to be a path to earn the rewards through direct gameplay, not paying someone else to play for me. "Flexible" doesn't mean throwing principles completely out the window.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > > > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Possibly true, but like back when Dungeons had the "zerk warrior meta," there was still no issue finding non-meta groups. The "hardcorz speed farming" groups may exist, but they don't want lowbie newbs on their team anyway, so they would obviously want to advertise their group in a way that discourages those players from trying to join. If a "casual easy mode" player is looking for a group to join, it shouldn't be that hard to see which is which, and even though mistakes will be made, it's still better than no option at all.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > How is that cheating? Is it cheating if someone buy materials from TP? Is it cheating if someone pay someone to open specific boss? Is it cheating if someone is giben gold for opening his/her home instance to another? From my point it is all the same thing. You pay gold to player for something they did. Its less cheating then buying gems for real money.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It's cheating if you're paying another player to play the game for you. Period.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > For me, it would be cheating too. I will get my kills and titles myself, or I won't get them. But that doesn't justify your "I don't want to play normal raids so anet pls pls pls nerf them for me and also give me the envoy armor".

> > > > >

> > > > > The players don't define the rules, the creators do, and Anet has been clear. How in the world the word cheating became subjective is beyond me.

> > > >

> > > > You have misunderstood the sentence. I'm not saying what is cheating and what's not. I'm saying that, for me, buying raids feels like cheating. It isn't, but in my moral system it feels like that. If I ever bought a kill I would feel like a cheater. Anet dictates the rules but no one can dictate how I feel about myself.

> > > >

> > > > Do you understand now?

> > >

> > > There are players in every mmo who choose to personally farm all materials they need, and literally never use the trading post because they dont believe in letting other players play the game for them. That is fine, it is their choice. But, if they come into the forums and wine for 40 pages that it is too hard to earn the rewards they want, and demand that everything is made easier to suit their unique play style, while calling the act of trading, 'cheating' that is ridiculous.

> >

> > Don't confuse me with Ohoni, I am a raider and I am against easy mode. Is that hard to understand that buying raids, FOR ME, FOR MYSELF, TALKING ONLY ABOUT MYSELF feels like cheating? I am not saying that it is, "officially" or whatever you want to call it. I am saying that me buying raids has no place in my moral system because I would feel like a cheater. I don't care if you buy raids, but I wouldn't do it.

> >

> > Really, is it that hard? This feels like a great post to include a meme in.

>

> Oh I totally did confuse you with Ohoni, sorry.

>

> I still think calling it cheating is stupid. Cheating has a well defined definition. Breaking the rules of the game. Your making up your own rules, which is fine, but I think your warping the definition of cheating to be whatever you want it to be. I think there is probably a better word for going against your own moral code....

>

> https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&client=firefox-b-1-ab&ei=G178WtikOcTr5gKG1peIDg&q=definition+unethical&oq=definition+unethical&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l2j0i22i30k1l8.32130.33086.0.33254.9.6.0.3.3.0.78.400.6.6.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.9.424...0i22i10i30k1.0.EE0Nmm1saGQ

>

Ohhhhhh come on let's not start a discussion about semantics.

 

But have you even studied philosophy at school? Don't you know the difference between morality and ethics?

 

If after explaining 2 times you still don't get it, I'm out of this conversation.

 

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> You can't honestly tell me with a straight face that the main game is not too easy when people don't even learn basic gameplay.

"too easy" for whom? Remember, difficulty _is_ relative.

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> How much whining have we had in the forums because the Eater of Souls fight was too hard.

That's because it wasn't hard. The problem was that the difficulty changed a lot depending on the class and build you used. Minion masters, for example, had next to no chance of killing it with the original mechanics, while most of the dps meta classes could simply roll over him.

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> how much whining do we still have about Events like Serpent's Ire

Not enough.

 

> how much whining have we had about the bosses in LWS4E2?

That golem was (and still is) bugged like kitten, so, again, not enough.

 

> So: How about making the main game a bit more difficult to teach people how to carry their own weight (which MMORPGs should do in the first place)?

How about getting back to the good old times when 100k total players (not necessarily active) was considered to be a massive population?

(hint: anet tried that. It was called HoT difficulty spike, and didn't meet a very warm popular reception. Didn't get more people in the game, or more income for Anet either).

 

[Cerioth.7062]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > What would your "practice mode" offer that the current raids do not? How would it be better?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Practice mode is there for players to understand the mechanics so that they can complete the normal raids to gain LI and KP.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > A practice mode would just act as a dumb down guide for players who have never done the raid. Most groups now require experience and a lot of it. As a beginner, you will never be able to begin a raid or find a group. What practice mode offers is that it will let players be able to go through the actions of the raid with other beginners or others who are looking to be better at the mechanics as well. Most people are hesitant to find a group because they are afraid of being a liability to the group. Most groups will kick players who do not have any LI and KP. Practice mode allows players who do not have LI and KP to band together to acquire experience. It will also let players know that Raiding isn't as difficult as others make it seem. The difficult part is gaining the LI and KP to find groups. Practice mode will expand the raiding community and make it less of a hassle to create groups or find players by making the raiding community larger.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Edit: As for the practice mode itself:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > 1. It should only go through the mechanics of the raid and shouldn't reward or penalize players for doing it.

> > > > > > > > > > > 2. The bosses should deal less damage, but have the same mechanics as the raid.

> > > > > > > > > > > 3. Players will now understand which skills and traits to bring for the many different raids in GW2.

> > > > > > > > > > > 4. Experienced raiders also gain benefit from practice mode if they do not know the mechanics of any single raid. A lot of players are comfortable with a couple of raids and not all of them. It will also allow the testing of builds for raids without it being too much of a hassle.

> > > > > > > > > > > 5. Create and LFG for practice mode.

> > > > > > > > > > > 6. Practice mode will cost less gold because players won't have to use consumables to learn the mechanics. Some consumables cost 1g+ for 30 minutes.

> > > > > > > > > > > 7. It will indirectly benefit ArenaNet by creating longevity for the players which in time will increase their sales on their online shop.

> > > > > > > > > > > 8. It will expand the raiding community and decrease the amount of scrutiny between beginners and experienced players.

> > > > > > > > > > > 9. It will also make it so that more DPS classes are accepted because of the experience acquired because your DPS is a lot different in raids than against kittybot.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Ok, that basically describes the easy mode we've been discussing, with the exception being that while I want it to be *usable* for practice as you describe it, I also want it to be a self-supporting game mode of its own, with rewards and everything. It would offer less rewards than normal raids, roughly 1/3 as much, but would allow players to progress *without* having to ever step foot in the actual raids. I feel that there is a value in a training mode, but that without rewards it will likely get underused, as players will quickly either move on to the actually rewarding mode, or they will give up entirely.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Pick one

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Why?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Ah I see, your not correctly comprehending what I am pointing out. I am not literally telling you to pick one. I am pointing out that you claim to be flexible in your means to achieve a goal, yet you choose to completely ignore a route to your goal which allows you to achieve raid rewards by playing any content you want.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Are you talking cheating? No, I will not cheat to achieve the goal. It has to be a path to earn the rewards through direct gameplay, not paying someone else to play for me. "Flexible" doesn't mean throwing principles completely out the window.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Possibly true, but like back when Dungeons had the "zerk warrior meta," there was still no issue finding non-meta groups. The "hardcorz speed farming" groups may exist, but they don't want lowbie newbs on their team anyway, so they would obviously want to advertise their group in a way that discourages those players from trying to join. If a "casual easy mode" player is looking for a group to join, it shouldn't be that hard to see which is which, and even though mistakes will be made, it's still better than no option at all.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > How is that cheating? Is it cheating if someone buy materials from TP? Is it cheating if someone pay someone to open specific boss? Is it cheating if someone is giben gold for opening his/her home instance to another? From my point it is all the same thing. You pay gold to player for something they did. Its less cheating then buying gems for real money.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It's cheating if you're paying another player to play the game for you. Period.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > For me, it would be cheating too. I will get my kills and titles myself, or I won't get them. But that doesn't justify your "I don't want to play normal raids so anet pls pls pls nerf them for me and also give me the envoy armor".

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The players don't define the rules, the creators do, and Anet has been clear. How in the world the word cheating became subjective is beyond me.

> > > > >

> > > > > You have misunderstood the sentence. I'm not saying what is cheating and what's not. I'm saying that, for me, buying raids feels like cheating. It isn't, but in my moral system it feels like that. If I ever bought a kill I would feel like a cheater. Anet dictates the rules but no one can dictate how I feel about myself.

> > > > >

> > > > > Do you understand now?

> > > >

> > > > There are players in every mmo who choose to personally farm all materials they need, and literally never use the trading post because they dont believe in letting other players play the game for them. That is fine, it is their choice. But, if they come into the forums and wine for 40 pages that it is too hard to earn the rewards they want, and demand that everything is made easier to suit their unique play style, while calling the act of trading, 'cheating' that is ridiculous.

> > >

> > > Don't confuse me with Ohoni, I am a raider and I am against easy mode. Is that hard to understand that buying raids, FOR ME, FOR MYSELF, TALKING ONLY ABOUT MYSELF feels like cheating? I am not saying that it is, "officially" or whatever you want to call it. I am saying that me buying raids has no place in my moral system because I would feel like a cheater. I don't care if you buy raids, but I wouldn't do it.

> > >

> > > Really, is it that hard? This feels like a great post to include a meme in.

> >

> > Oh I totally did confuse you with Ohoni, sorry.

> >

> > I still think calling it cheating is stupid. Cheating has a well defined definition. Breaking the rules of the game. Your making up your own rules, which is fine, but I think your warping the definition of cheating to be whatever you want it to be. I think there is probably a better word for going against your own moral code....

> >

> > https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&client=firefox-b-1-ab&ei=G178WtikOcTr5gKG1peIDg&q=definition+unethical&oq=definition+unethical&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l2j0i22i30k1l8.32130.33086.0.33254.9.6.0.3.3.0.78.400.6.6.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.9.424...0i22i10i30k1.0.EE0Nmm1saGQ

> >

> Ohhhhhh come on let's not start a discussion about semantics.

>

> But have you even studied philosophy at school? Don't you know the difference between morality and ethics?

>

> If after explaining 2 times you still don't get it, I'm out of this conversation.

>

>

>

 

This is bit off topic but honesrtly I agree with you. I dont mind or care if others buy raid selling service, that's all cool and I dont think any less of them, but I personally would never want to do it because it feels like I have not earned whatever I was pursuing.

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > You can't honestly tell me with a straight face that the main game is not too easy when people don't even learn basic gameplay.

> "too easy" for whom? Remember, difficulty _is_ relative.

 

And I think THIS is the key to this whole conversation. _Difficulty is relative._ Even if you make easy mode raids, it is still going to be TOO difficult, TOO repetitive, TOO hard to understand or whatever to some people. Learning to ds these game modes how they were originally intended is the healthiest solution.

 

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > If Anet decides that envoy should be given for free i will respect that ad adapt. But i guess there might be some players that would (rightfuly) feel coned by this and that would reflect on their future investments in the game.

> Notice, that this didn't stop Anet from introducing raids in the first place.

>

> > It is much easier to lose a player then to gain a player. No player ever (i think) joins the game noly because there is envoy armor locked behind raids. They might join for raids as a whole but not just for armor. On the other hand player might quit the game after they give something he worked hard for for free away.

> First, it would not be for free. We both know it's just an argument meant to put the other side in bad light, and not a real description of the easy mode side stance. Second, yes, some people might leave because of that. Just as some people might leave because of raid exclusivity and of legendary armor being locked behind that content. And, considering it's not a raid-centric game in its core, and that raids are relatively tame compared to other games that simply do it better, i'd say that it's more probable for someone to leave GW2 because of raids than to join it just for them.

>

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > If they add another option to get envoy armor it should feel as same CHALANGE as getting it from raids.

> If it feels exactly the same, then what's the point? And if it's different kind of challenge, raiders already said it wouldn't count because nothing compares to raids.

>

 

I wasnt saying that you want it free. I was saying what if they make it free.

I just dont want the path to envoy armor be mindless. It shouldnt be possible to get it while watching movie. I doesnt need to be hard but it should show that the owner did something for it. Be it worldboss hunt, solving puzzles and maybe some short story like knight of thorn.

 

Btw do you know a player that left because raids were added (and why are raids bad for the game)

I know at least one player that joined because of raids.

 

[Sarrs.4831]

It still kinda tickles me that the argument keeps swinging back to wanting the rewards rather than the actual merits of the content.

[Sykper.6583]

> @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> It still kinda tickles me that the argument keeps swinging back to wanting the rewards rather than the actual merits of the content.

 

I've more or less accepted that even among the more vocal folks here, there's only maybe 1-3 actual forum posters who are working for the active merits of trying to 'improve' raiding through an easier difficulty, compared to simply greed for the rewards. It's plain as day to me given I've been arguing against it for years, and despite some potential solutions said individuals always seem to interject with their own premise that the 'compromise' isn't enough.

 

I've never in all my years of gaming have run into something like an 'Elitist Casual' (if you understand what I am getting at) until GW2. If there's any downside to offering the most open MMO experience to the most wide range of audiences, it is bringing in players who honestly shouldn't be playing an MMO but instead a Single-player game since they clearly cannot cooperate with others in any slight amount of coordination. I can admire Arenanet for what they have done, but this is a good example of what happens when you make more than 90% of an MMO game a 'soloish' experience.

[thrag.9740]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > What would your "practice mode" offer that the current raids do not? How would it be better?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Practice mode is there for players to understand the mechanics so that they can complete the normal raids to gain LI and KP.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > A practice mode would just act as a dumb down guide for players who have never done the raid. Most groups now require experience and a lot of it. As a beginner, you will never be able to begin a raid or find a group. What practice mode offers is that it will let players be able to go through the actions of the raid with other beginners or others who are looking to be better at the mechanics as well. Most people are hesitant to find a group because they are afraid of being a liability to the group. Most groups will kick players who do not have any LI and KP. Practice mode allows players who do not have LI and KP to band together to acquire experience. It will also let players know that Raiding isn't as difficult as others make it seem. The difficult part is gaining the LI and KP to find groups. Practice mode will expand the raiding community and make it less of a hassle to create groups or find players by making the raiding community larger.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Edit: As for the practice mode itself:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > 1. It should only go through the mechanics of the raid and shouldn't reward or penalize players for doing it.

> > > > > > > > > > > 2. The bosses should deal less damage, but have the same mechanics as the raid.

> > > > > > > > > > > 3. Players will now understand which skills and traits to bring for the many different raids in GW2.

> > > > > > > > > > > 4. Experienced raiders also gain benefit from practice mode if they do not know the mechanics of any single raid. A lot of players are comfortable with a couple of raids and not all of them. It will also allow the testing of builds for raids without it being too much of a hassle.

> > > > > > > > > > > 5. Create and LFG for practice mode.

> > > > > > > > > > > 6. Practice mode will cost less gold because players won't have to use consumables to learn the mechanics. Some consumables cost 1g+ for 30 minutes.

> > > > > > > > > > > 7. It will indirectly benefit ArenaNet by creating longevity for the players which in time will increase their sales on their online shop.

> > > > > > > > > > > 8. It will expand the raiding community and decrease the amount of scrutiny between beginners and experienced players.

> > > > > > > > > > > 9. It will also make it so that more DPS classes are accepted because of the experience acquired because your DPS is a lot different in raids than against kittybot.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Ok, that basically describes the easy mode we've been discussing, with the exception being that while I want it to be *usable* for practice as you describe it, I also want it to be a self-supporting game mode of its own, with rewards and everything. It would offer less rewards than normal raids, roughly 1/3 as much, but would allow players to progress *without* having to ever step foot in the actual raids. I feel that there is a value in a training mode, but that without rewards it will likely get underused, as players will quickly either move on to the actually rewarding mode, or they will give up entirely.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Pick one

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Why?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Ah I see, your not correctly comprehending what I am pointing out. I am not literally telling you to pick one. I am pointing out that you claim to be flexible in your means to achieve a goal, yet you choose to completely ignore a route to your goal which allows you to achieve raid rewards by playing any content you want.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Are you talking cheating? No, I will not cheat to achieve the goal. It has to be a path to earn the rewards through direct gameplay, not paying someone else to play for me. "Flexible" doesn't mean throwing principles completely out the window.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Possibly true, but like back when Dungeons had the "zerk warrior meta," there was still no issue finding non-meta groups. The "hardcorz speed farming" groups may exist, but they don't want lowbie newbs on their team anyway, so they would obviously want to advertise their group in a way that discourages those players from trying to join. If a "casual easy mode" player is looking for a group to join, it shouldn't be that hard to see which is which, and even though mistakes will be made, it's still better than no option at all.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > How is that cheating? Is it cheating if someone buy materials from TP? Is it cheating if someone pay someone to open specific boss? Is it cheating if someone is giben gold for opening his/her home instance to another? From my point it is all the same thing. You pay gold to player for something they did. Its less cheating then buying gems for real money.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It's cheating if you're paying another player to play the game for you. Period.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > For me, it would be cheating too. I will get my kills and titles myself, or I won't get them. But that doesn't justify your "I don't want to play normal raids so anet pls pls pls nerf them for me and also give me the envoy armor".

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The players don't define the rules, the creators do, and Anet has been clear. How in the world the word cheating became subjective is beyond me.

> > > > >

> > > > > You have misunderstood the sentence. I'm not saying what is cheating and what's not. I'm saying that, for me, buying raids feels like cheating. It isn't, but in my moral system it feels like that. If I ever bought a kill I would feel like a cheater. Anet dictates the rules but no one can dictate how I feel about myself.

> > > > >

> > > > > Do you understand now?

> > > >

> > > > There are players in every mmo who choose to personally farm all materials they need, and literally never use the trading post because they dont believe in letting other players play the game for them. That is fine, it is their choice. But, if they come into the forums and wine for 40 pages that it is too hard to earn the rewards they want, and demand that everything is made easier to suit their unique play style, while calling the act of trading, 'cheating' that is ridiculous.

> > >

> > > Don't confuse me with Ohoni, I am a raider and I am against easy mode. Is that hard to understand that buying raids, FOR ME, FOR MYSELF, TALKING ONLY ABOUT MYSELF feels like cheating? I am not saying that it is, "officially" or whatever you want to call it. I am saying that me buying raids has no place in my moral system because I would feel like a cheater. I don't care if you buy raids, but I wouldn't do it.

> > >

> > > Really, is it that hard? This feels like a great post to include a meme in.

> >

> > Oh I totally did confuse you with Ohoni, sorry.

> >

> > I still think calling it cheating is stupid. Cheating has a well defined definition. Breaking the rules of the game. Your making up your own rules, which is fine, but I think your warping the definition of cheating to be whatever you want it to be. I think there is probably a better word for going against your own moral code....

> >

> > https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&client=firefox-b-1-ab&ei=G178WtikOcTr5gKG1peIDg&q=definition+unethical&oq=definition+unethical&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l2j0i22i30k1l8.32130.33086.0.33254.9.6.0.3.3.0.78.400.6.6.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.9.424...0i22i10i30k1.0.EE0Nmm1saGQ

> >

> Ohhhhhh come on let's not start a discussion about semantics.

>

> But have you even studied philosophy at school? Don't you know the difference between morality and ethics?

>

> If after explaining 2 times you still don't get it, I'm out of this conversation.

>

>

>

Ok, fine, lets keep calling it cheating to make you happy.

 

Let me make sure I understand. Making a boss trivial by complaining on the forums about how hard it is until they make an easy mode, is not cheating. But paying 9 players to kill the boss for you is cheating.....

 

Why? I would argue you probably feel that way because the first option involves Anet telling you that easy mode is worthy of raid rewards. But Anet already told you that buying raids is ok too.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

>If someone come to me and ask WHY they cannot carry their weight and WHAT should they do to not be a burden I will explain to him what to focus on, some tricks both with setting and in game that makes it easier..... But player that doesnt want this kind of help but instead want from me to do it for him will not get my help. Thats a rule I set to myself when i first encountered someone that needed help and i live by it since.

 

Right, which is why I'm not asking for help from you or any other player, I'm asking for an alternate mode where such help would not be needed.

 

>Also raids are teambased content. Its idea is that everyone need to carry each other. And you have to adapt, both during actual raid and when joining. For example if you see your dps is low then you go for slow cc/updraft on gorseval. And when you know you have problems in raids its better to pick sb3 instead of weaver.

 

Right, which is why the existing raids just aren't suitable for a lot of people that play this game, and there should be an alternate version that is less demanding.

 

>>This is why real world "hard work" examples really make absolutely no sense in a game analogy, because the primary reason people get *paid* in the real world is not "because they worked hard," it's because "they accomplished a *task* that *someone* was willing to pay to have it done."

 

>Someone=Anet

>money=Envoy armor

>task=legendary armor achievment

 

 

Right, but the problem with that scenario is, ANet doesn't benefit from players clearing raids. It's not like a factory where every time someone completes a raid, ANet makes $5, so it's worth their interest to pay that worker $3 so that they'll do it. Whether a hundred raid instances are cleared in a day, or zero, ANet makes the same amount of money. **They have no financial interest in players doing any specific task.**

 

What they *do* have an interest in is *player engagement,* In players *spending time in the game,* and *enjoying* that time spent in the game. This fact remains true whether that player enjoys raiding, or farming moas. So long as the player is having fun, he is "doing it right." If, at any point, the player is *not* having fun, then he is *doing it wrong,* and ANet would have made a mistake in creating a system that would incentivize that player to engage in that activity.

 

To a factory, they don't care whether the worker is having fun, they only care how many products he finishes per shift. For a game, it's the opposite, they have no reason to care about player productivity, they only need to care how that might lead to engagement and enjoyment.

 

>If Anet decides that envoy should be given for free i will respect that ad adapt. But i guess there might be some players that would (rightfuly) feel coned by this and that would reflect on their future investments in the game.

 

As was the case with many other similar decisions that this game has made over the years, and that other games have made as well? I do know people that left the game because raids were introduced, should they be removed to try and get them back?

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

>I shortened your quotes. Sorry in advance if that does offend you. You can't honestly tell me with a straight face that the main game is not too easy when people don't even learn basic gameplay.

 

It's all relative. I don't mind that people don't learn "the basic gameplay" as you think of it, and they shouldn't either, so long as they are enjoying themselves. I like systems that give you plenty of options, but that don't *require* that you make masterful advantage of them. If people do figure out a way to min-max their way to a really powerful state, that's fine, but I don't want that to be a necessary part of the process. It take the fun out of having options when there's only one "correct" answer.

 

I accept that it's "too easy" *for you,* I just don't except that this is somehow a bad thing.

 

>How much whining have we had in the forums because the Eater of Souls fight was too hard,

 

To be fair, it was pretty tricky, depending on build. I got through it on the first try, but it was likely more luck than not that I avoided his worst attacks and had a decent build for him (I had a DD, so I was able to Steal to breakbar him, and/or dodge super far away if he tried to heal off me). He had some very serious damaging attacks if you didn't know how to handle him, and I can understand people's annoyance with him. It wasn't entirely that as a standalone encounter he was way too hard, but it did make sense within the *context* of him being a boss at the end of a relatively long story chapter, *after* a previous boss fight, and blocking progression into the story. If he'd been some optional boss that you only had to fight if you wanted to fight him, I doubt many would have complained, or even if he was just in a much shorter story step that was easier to ditch and pick up later, but within the context he was presented, I think that the more casual players had every reason to be upset with the specific challenges involved.

 

>So: How about making the main game a bit more difficult to teach people how to carry their own weight (which MMORPGs should do in the first place)?

 

Or, just accept that they don't want to be molded into little machines, and just present opportunities for them to enjoy themselves, at whatever skill level they bring to the table?

 

> @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > "too easy" for whom? Remember, difficulty _is_ relative.

>

> And I think THIS is the key to this whole conversation. _Difficulty is relative._ Even if you make easy mode raids, it is still going to be TOO difficult, TOO repetitive, TOO hard to understand or whatever to some people. Learning to ds these game modes how they were originally intended is the healthiest solution.

 

"Too some people?" Sure, probably. It's impossible to please everyone. But we can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If 90% of players raided regularly, I couldn't justify having an easy mode just to try and satisfy the other 10%. But all data we've been able to find indicate that less than 25%, likely *far* less than 25% raid regularly, so it stands to reason that they could do *better* in satisfying players. The goal with an easy mode would not be "a mode that *everyone* would enjoy," the goal would just be "a mode that *many* players that fall more towards the 'easy' side of the game would enjoy." It would be pegged at a difficulty level that should be consistent with content that most players have completed, and therefore that most players should be comfortable with, and yeah, some players would still find it "too hard," but even so, the chances that ten of them would wind up on the same PUG would be fairly low, and having even a decent number of better players should be able to carry them through it.

 

That's the nice thing about raids, with solo you're on your own, and with dungeons 1-2 bad players make up a large chunk of the party to compensate for, but with ten people, if it's balanced to be fairly easy, then the odds are that the average group skill level will still be fairly high relative to the content.

 

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

>I wasnt saying that you want it free. I was saying what if they make it free.

 

*But,* nobody is asking for that, so why speculate?

 

> @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> It still kinda tickles me that the argument keeps swinging back to wanting the rewards rather than the actual merits of the content.

 

Again, it's *always* been about both, but typically when the argument *does* swing back to rewards, it's because some gatekeeper is saying "but you *obviously* can't have rewards. . ."

 

> @"Sykper.6583" said:

> I've never in all my years of gaming have run into something like an 'Elitist Casual' (if you understand what I am getting at) until GW2. If there's any downside to offering the most open MMO experience to the most wide range of audiences, it is bringing in players who honestly shouldn't be playing an MMO but instead a Single-player game since they clearly cannot cooperate with others in any slight amount of coordination. I can admire Arenanet for what they have done, but this is a good example of what happens when you make more than 90% of an MMO game a 'soloish' experience.

 

Honestly, your problem here is in not understanding _why GW2 **works.**_ I've been playing MMOs since the 90s, I loved the massive, expansive worlds they contained (relative to other games at the times), and I loved being *around* other players, but I never enjoying "partying," I never enjoyed having to actually group up with other players, form a formal alliance, just to tackle content. I enjoyed being in the same space as the other players, fighting enemies alongside them as they came up, but I liked to come and go as I pleased. Obviously, in some games this worked better than others, with various systems that would penalize working together if not in a formal group, or make doing so pointless, and in many cases making a lot of content impossible to solo. GW2 did the best job so far of actually *embracing* the playstyle I'd been chasing for over a decade, and I'm convinced that it was a major factor in its success. It was the best game at allowing you to play *with* other players, without forcing you to formally group up or directly coordinate your actions (for most content).

 

I just think there are a lot of people coming at this game from other MMOs, and expecting GW2 to be more *like* those other MMOs, without appreciating that so much of what they consider to be a "bug," is actually some of the most core *features* of the game.

[nia.4725]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > What would your "practice mode" offer that the current raids do not? How would it be better?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Practice mode is there for players to understand the mechanics so that they can complete the normal raids to gain LI and KP.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > A practice mode would just act as a dumb down guide for players who have never done the raid. Most groups now require experience and a lot of it. As a beginner, you will never be able to begin a raid or find a group. What practice mode offers is that it will let players be able to go through the actions of the raid with other beginners or others who are looking to be better at the mechanics as well. Most people are hesitant to find a group because they are afraid of being a liability to the group. Most groups will kick players who do not have any LI and KP. Practice mode allows players who do not have LI and KP to band together to acquire experience. It will also let players know that Raiding isn't as difficult as others make it seem. The difficult part is gaining the LI and KP to find groups. Practice mode will expand the raiding community and make it less of a hassle to create groups or find players by making the raiding community larger.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: As for the practice mode itself:

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > 1. It should only go through the mechanics of the raid and shouldn't reward or penalize players for doing it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 2. The bosses should deal less damage, but have the same mechanics as the raid.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Players will now understand which skills and traits to bring for the many different raids in GW2.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Experienced raiders also gain benefit from practice mode if they do not know the mechanics of any single raid. A lot of players are comfortable with a couple of raids and not all of them. It will also allow the testing of builds for raids without it being too much of a hassle.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Create and LFG for practice mode.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Practice mode will cost less gold because players won't have to use consumables to learn the mechanics. Some consumables cost 1g+ for 30 minutes.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 7. It will indirectly benefit ArenaNet by creating longevity for the players which in time will increase their sales on their online shop.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 8. It will expand the raiding community and decrease the amount of scrutiny between beginners and experienced players.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 9. It will also make it so that more DPS classes are accepted because of the experience acquired because your DPS is a lot different in raids than against kittybot.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Ok, that basically describes the easy mode we've been discussing, with the exception being that while I want it to be *usable* for practice as you describe it, I also want it to be a self-supporting game mode of its own, with rewards and everything. It would offer less rewards than normal raids, roughly 1/3 as much, but would allow players to progress *without* having to ever step foot in the actual raids. I feel that there is a value in a training mode, but that without rewards it will likely get underused, as players will quickly either move on to the actually rewarding mode, or they will give up entirely.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pick one

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Why?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Ah I see, your not correctly comprehending what I am pointing out. I am not literally telling you to pick one. I am pointing out that you claim to be flexible in your means to achieve a goal, yet you choose to completely ignore a route to your goal which allows you to achieve raid rewards by playing any content you want.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Are you talking cheating? No, I will not cheat to achieve the goal. It has to be a path to earn the rewards through direct gameplay, not paying someone else to play for me. "Flexible" doesn't mean throwing principles completely out the window.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Possibly true, but like back when Dungeons had the "zerk warrior meta," there was still no issue finding non-meta groups. The "hardcorz speed farming" groups may exist, but they don't want lowbie newbs on their team anyway, so they would obviously want to advertise their group in a way that discourages those players from trying to join. If a "casual easy mode" player is looking for a group to join, it shouldn't be that hard to see which is which, and even though mistakes will be made, it's still better than no option at all.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > How is that cheating? Is it cheating if someone buy materials from TP? Is it cheating if someone pay someone to open specific boss? Is it cheating if someone is giben gold for opening his/her home instance to another? From my point it is all the same thing. You pay gold to player for something they did. Its less cheating then buying gems for real money.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It's cheating if you're paying another player to play the game for you. Period.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > For me, it would be cheating too. I will get my kills and titles myself, or I won't get them. But that doesn't justify your "I don't want to play normal raids so anet pls pls pls nerf them for me and also give me the envoy armor".

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The players don't define the rules, the creators do, and Anet has been clear. How in the world the word cheating became subjective is beyond me.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You have misunderstood the sentence. I'm not saying what is cheating and what's not. I'm saying that, for me, buying raids feels like cheating. It isn't, but in my moral system it feels like that. If I ever bought a kill I would feel like a cheater. Anet dictates the rules but no one can dictate how I feel about myself.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Do you understand now?

> > > > >

> > > > > There are players in every mmo who choose to personally farm all materials they need, and literally never use the trading post because they dont believe in letting other players play the game for them. That is fine, it is their choice. But, if they come into the forums and wine for 40 pages that it is too hard to earn the rewards they want, and demand that everything is made easier to suit their unique play style, while calling the act of trading, 'cheating' that is ridiculous.

> > > >

> > > > Don't confuse me with Ohoni, I am a raider and I am against easy mode. Is that hard to understand that buying raids, FOR ME, FOR MYSELF, TALKING ONLY ABOUT MYSELF feels like cheating? I am not saying that it is, "officially" or whatever you want to call it. I am saying that me buying raids has no place in my moral system because I would feel like a cheater. I don't care if you buy raids, but I wouldn't do it.

> > > >

> > > > Really, is it that hard? This feels like a great post to include a meme in.

> > >

> > > Oh I totally did confuse you with Ohoni, sorry.

> > >

> > > I still think calling it cheating is stupid. Cheating has a well defined definition. Breaking the rules of the game. Your making up your own rules, which is fine, but I think your warping the definition of cheating to be whatever you want it to be. I think there is probably a better word for going against your own moral code....

> > >

> > > https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&client=firefox-b-1-ab&ei=G178WtikOcTr5gKG1peIDg&q=definition+unethical&oq=definition+unethical&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l2j0i22i30k1l8.32130.33086.0.33254.9.6.0.3.3.0.78.400.6.6.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.9.424...0i22i10i30k1.0.EE0Nmm1saGQ

> > >

> > Ohhhhhh come on let's not start a discussion about semantics.

> >

> > But have you even studied philosophy at school? Don't you know the difference between morality and ethics?

> >

> > If after explaining 2 times you still don't get it, I'm out of this conversation.

> >

> >

> >

> Ok, fine, lets keep calling it cheating to make you happy.

>

> Let me make sure I understand. Making a boss trivial by complaining on the forums about how hard it is until they make an easy mode, is not cheating. But paying 9 players to kill the boss for you is cheating.....

>

> Why? I would argue you probably feel that way because the first option involves Anet telling you that easy mode is worthy of raid rewards. But Anet already told you that buying raids is ok too.

 

...I am Nia, not Ohoni. The Nia of the +800LI who is against easy mode. Look before quoting, I already told you and it seems that you still don't get it.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > What would your "practice mode" offer that the current raids do not? How would it be better?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Practice mode is there for players to understand the mechanics so that they can complete the normal raids to gain LI and KP.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > A practice mode would just act as a dumb down guide for players who have never done the raid. Most groups now require experience and a lot of it. As a beginner, you will never be able to begin a raid or find a group. What practice mode offers is that it will let players be able to go through the actions of the raid with other beginners or others who are looking to be better at the mechanics as well. Most people are hesitant to find a group because they are afraid of being a liability to the group. Most groups will kick players who do not have any LI and KP. Practice mode allows players who do not have LI and KP to band together to acquire experience. It will also let players know that Raiding isn't as difficult as others make it seem. The difficult part is gaining the LI and KP to find groups. Practice mode will expand the raiding community and make it less of a hassle to create groups or find players by making the raiding community larger.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: As for the practice mode itself:

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > 1. It should only go through the mechanics of the raid and shouldn't reward or penalize players for doing it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 2. The bosses should deal less damage, but have the same mechanics as the raid.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Players will now understand which skills and traits to bring for the many different raids in GW2.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Experienced raiders also gain benefit from practice mode if they do not know the mechanics of any single raid. A lot of players are comfortable with a couple of raids and not all of them. It will also allow the testing of builds for raids without it being too much of a hassle.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Create and LFG for practice mode.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Practice mode will cost less gold because players won't have to use consumables to learn the mechanics. Some consumables cost 1g+ for 30 minutes.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 7. It will indirectly benefit ArenaNet by creating longevity for the players which in time will increase their sales on their online shop.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 8. It will expand the raiding community and decrease the amount of scrutiny between beginners and experienced players.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 9. It will also make it so that more DPS classes are accepted because of the experience acquired because your DPS is a lot different in raids than against kittybot.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Ok, that basically describes the easy mode we've been discussing, with the exception being that while I want it to be *usable* for practice as you describe it, I also want it to be a self-supporting game mode of its own, with rewards and everything. It would offer less rewards than normal raids, roughly 1/3 as much, but would allow players to progress *without* having to ever step foot in the actual raids. I feel that there is a value in a training mode, but that without rewards it will likely get underused, as players will quickly either move on to the actually rewarding mode, or they will give up entirely.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pick one

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Why?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Ah I see, your not correctly comprehending what I am pointing out. I am not literally telling you to pick one. I am pointing out that you claim to be flexible in your means to achieve a goal, yet you choose to completely ignore a route to your goal which allows you to achieve raid rewards by playing any content you want.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Are you talking cheating? No, I will not cheat to achieve the goal. It has to be a path to earn the rewards through direct gameplay, not paying someone else to play for me. "Flexible" doesn't mean throwing principles completely out the window.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Possibly true, but like back when Dungeons had the "zerk warrior meta," there was still no issue finding non-meta groups. The "hardcorz speed farming" groups may exist, but they don't want lowbie newbs on their team anyway, so they would obviously want to advertise their group in a way that discourages those players from trying to join. If a "casual easy mode" player is looking for a group to join, it shouldn't be that hard to see which is which, and even though mistakes will be made, it's still better than no option at all.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > How is that cheating? Is it cheating if someone buy materials from TP? Is it cheating if someone pay someone to open specific boss? Is it cheating if someone is giben gold for opening his/her home instance to another? From my point it is all the same thing. You pay gold to player for something they did. Its less cheating then buying gems for real money.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It's cheating if you're paying another player to play the game for you. Period.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > For me, it would be cheating too. I will get my kills and titles myself, or I won't get them. But that doesn't justify your "I don't want to play normal raids so anet pls pls pls nerf them for me and also give me the envoy armor".

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The players don't define the rules, the creators do, and Anet has been clear. How in the world the word cheating became subjective is beyond me.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You have misunderstood the sentence. I'm not saying what is cheating and what's not. I'm saying that, for me, buying raids feels like cheating. It isn't, but in my moral system it feels like that. If I ever bought a kill I would feel like a cheater. Anet dictates the rules but no one can dictate how I feel about myself.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Do you understand now?

> > > > >

> > > > > There are players in every mmo who choose to personally farm all materials they need, and literally never use the trading post because they dont believe in letting other players play the game for them. That is fine, it is their choice. But, if they come into the forums and wine for 40 pages that it is too hard to earn the rewards they want, and demand that everything is made easier to suit their unique play style, while calling the act of trading, 'cheating' that is ridiculous.

> > > >

> > > > Don't confuse me with Ohoni, I am a raider and I am against easy mode. Is that hard to understand that buying raids, FOR ME, FOR MYSELF, TALKING ONLY ABOUT MYSELF feels like cheating? I am not saying that it is, "officially" or whatever you want to call it. I am saying that me buying raids has no place in my moral system because I would feel like a cheater. I don't care if you buy raids, but I wouldn't do it.

> > > >

> > > > Really, is it that hard? This feels like a great post to include a meme in.

> > >

> > > Oh I totally did confuse you with Ohoni, sorry.

> > >

> > > I still think calling it cheating is stupid. Cheating has a well defined definition. Breaking the rules of the game. Your making up your own rules, which is fine, but I think your warping the definition of cheating to be whatever you want it to be. I think there is probably a better word for going against your own moral code....

> > >

> > > https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&client=firefox-b-1-ab&ei=G178WtikOcTr5gKG1peIDg&q=definition+unethical&oq=definition+unethical&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l2j0i22i30k1l8.32130.33086.0.33254.9.6.0.3.3.0.78.400.6.6.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.9.424...0i22i10i30k1.0.EE0Nmm1saGQ

> > >

> > Ohhhhhh come on let's not start a discussion about semantics.

> >

> > But have you even studied philosophy at school? Don't you know the difference between morality and ethics?

> >

> > If after explaining 2 times you still don't get it, I'm out of this conversation.

> >

> >

> >

> Ok, fine, lets keep calling it cheating to make you happy.

>

> Let me make sure I understand. Making a boss trivial by complaining on the forums about how hard it is until they make an easy mode, is not cheating. But paying 9 players to kill the boss for you is cheating.....

>

> Why? I would argue you probably feel that way because the first option involves Anet telling you that easy mode is worthy of raid rewards. But Anet already told you that buying raids is ok too.

 

For me both buying raids and wanting easier dificulty is cheating and i would personaly never done any of those. But technicaly neither of those is real cheating since both of them are not against any rules