Epidemic in raids needs to be nerfed

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

Just as a sidenote, btw.

Strangely enough I'm not against nerfing Epi. But the Necro not being **heavily** compensated for it, is just wrong! If you look at the history, they deserve it the most (with maybe the exception of the Revenant, but it literally has less history as well).

 

(btw, I'm only talking about the PvE endgame here! Not PvP and WvW)

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > Necro is strong enough even if they would delete epi entirely, it is a 0 skill 0 effort class

> > >

> > > _This_ is the real problem: people that say things like this! And I'm pretty sure this person has never even touched the Necro once in his/her life. Let alone trying every single day to get into PUG groups (raids/fractals)

> >

> > Meanwhile Teapot does a whole series based on the premise of joining raids with a power reaper without any kps. Come on. A lot of groups will let you in, partly out of curiosity and partly because they just don't care. The ones who won't take you are the actual top elitists which want to minmax everything and clueless pugs you don't wanna be in anyway.

>

> Funny, I here have similar (anecdotal) proof with the exact opposite results:

>

>

> Anyway, it doesn't really matter, the fact is, that you won't see compilations/series like these for an Ele (or other META class) ... EVER!

 

Yeah, you'll only find the "pug ele" meme. My point is, you can dps in raid with anything. I can agree that very few groups would be willing to take an off-meta support. Because the supports are just so stupidly OP. And any off-meta support will need another support/hybrid to fill the gaps. But for dps? Nope. As long as you play your build well and it's an actual sensible dps build (read: no PVT nonsense), you can raid on it just fine. As a side note, I'll fathom a guess Teapot succeeds because he's confident. He knows he can do passable dps even on a weaker dps build with suboptimal gear, and it shows in his attitude. If you start making excuses or asking permission to bring a snowflake build, you're only making it easier for the others to say "no".

 

P.S. Don't get me wrong - I don't want necro to be trash tier. Personally, I believe easier builds should be less potent than harder ones, so I don't want it top-tier with minimum effort either. But I'm perfectly happy with Scourge being added to the roster of builds which compete and in certain fights outperform the eles. So yeah, it will need some sort of compensation, though probably we'll have differences in opinion for its exact magnitude.

[Catchyfx.5768]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

 

> P.S. Don't get me wrong - I don't want necro to be trash tier. Personally, I believe easier builds should be less potent than harder ones, so I don't want it top-tier with minimum effort either. But I'm perfectly happy with Scourge being added to the roster of builds which compete and in certain fights outperform the eles. So yeah, it will need some sort of compensation, though probably we'll have differences in opinion for its exact magnitude.

 

I believe you mean no harm to necro community but you need understand that we know what will happend if epi will be removed. Axe aa+1%(its meme but its true) If we get something removed or changed never get same compensation, allways it ends as nerf. Epi remove is nonsence, for core necro( i know nobody play it) cuz core weapons(condi) are 80% single target.

 

So if remove Epi, weapons need change.-> rather impossible

If change epi, maybe better idea. But how? -> uh sure

How to change it and dont make it unusable. Lets wait to the Patchnodes and then disscous some serious solution.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

>

> > P.S. Don't get me wrong - I don't want necro to be trash tier. Personally, I believe easier builds should be less potent than harder ones, so I don't want it top-tier with minimum effort either. But I'm perfectly happy with Scourge being added to the roster of builds which compete and in certain fights outperform the eles. So yeah, it will need some sort of compensation, though probably we'll have differences in opinion for its exact magnitude.

>

> I believe you mean no harm to necro community but you need understand that we know what will happend if epi will be removed. Axe aa+1%(its meme but its true) If we get something removed or changed never get same compensation, allways it ends as nerf. Epi remove is nonsence, for core necro( i know nobody play it) cuz core weapons(condi) are 80% single target.

>

> So if remove Epi, weapons need change.-> rather impossible

> If change epi, maybe better idea. But how? -> uh sure

> How to change it and dont make it unusable. Lets wait to the Patchnodes and then disscous some serious solution.

 

Actually I'm all for keeping Epidemic as a skill. It's nice, it fits the class thematically and it is a valuable addition. The only problem is the ability to bounce it, because of how ridiculously high it scales. Flag the epi'd condis so they can't be transferred by another epi, done. Of course, this might be hard to do on the technical side, I'm just giving an example for a possible solution. The class will still need some dps buff because it is currently on the low end of the spectrum without Epi. but it shouldn't be too hard to estimate the proper balance for that. And I think it will end up in a much healthier state than it is now.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> I never said it removes mechanics

I don't know...

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> That was not the point. Reducing the hardest boss to "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" *is* a problem.

>

Seems like now your trying to back out of it because I called you out on it.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said

>Using weavers makes positioning that much more important, both for the boss and the players themselves. A scourge never loses dps because they had to break their Meteor Shower cast to avoid getting picked up. Or because the boss walked/ported out of their Meteor Shower. Using any other dps can mitigate that issue, but present a new one - the need to actively take care of the adds which could otherwise kill a reaper. Scourges don't care about that either - plop some shades on star, pop few epis, done. And on top of that there's the constant Barrier spam which keeps the group nice and safe. And on top of that there's the instant access to CC which doesn't make you lose all your dps.

>

> Like I said, there are solid reasons why this particular dps strategy is leaps and bounds ahead of any other.

Yeah of course scourge doesn't lose dps because of a broken meteor shower cast, scourge doesn't have that skill in game. But dhuum can teleport out of epi, (as well as skills like sand shade, f5, plague lands, corrosive poison cloud, scepter 2, torch 5).

 

Yes epi can kill spiders. However, if you put dhuum next to star, half of necro's attacks are single target and won't even hit spiders, in fact necro's single target dps goes down because of ads on the boss soaking up things like condi transfer from bip and internal cool down of demonic lore, I don't know if weaver has a single skill that is single target. Both classes have lots of cleave damage, but because necro's is focused into a single skill, it is more noticeable.

 

You claim necro doesn't have to care about killing spiders, but then claim all they have to do is plop down some sand shades. What exactly does ele do differently? All they do is plop down some lava fonts. Additionally sand shades don't do much outside of pulsing damage from desert shroud, which has a 20 second cool down. Meanwhile, lava font has an 8 second cool down. Edit: 6 second cool down.

 

Instant cc? Are you talking about f4, the 2 second fear? The echo has to be inside a shade, and although the cast is instant, the application of fear is not (same as all shade skills, this was an update to balance wvw). I agree, necro soft cc is nice, but weaver has access to some hard cc. Agreed, that some hard cc requires attunments that are uncommon, but almost at every point in the rotation, there is a 1 attunement swap option for ele to reach hard cc skills. If in fire-x your either fire-earth (use earth 4 for for 150 break bar) or your fire-air (use air 5 for 200 break bar) or your fire-fire which is the only situation where your 2 swaps from a hard cc skill , but earth-x can do any swap to reach earth 4 and earth 5 for soft cc, specifically going from earth-x to air gives an additional 2 second daze (200 break bar). If your in air-x, any swap gives you air 5, again earth specifically gives you a 2 second daze, and air-air gives you gust for 232 break bar damage. Necro might have ease of access, but a 2 second fear is 200 cc bar. Ele has access to more than that just with hard cc let alone soft cc such as water 4, and weakness through any dual attack.

 

Barrier I agree. No one wanted scourge to be a support class. Many of us were excited that without the extra health bar, scourge could be a dps class. I have no complaints about getting rid of barrier entirely.

[TexZero.7910]

I for one welcome our new Engineer overlords.

 

God bless the balance team.

[Digit.1823]

Necros, we shall remember you fondly....always, for your epidemic shenanigans. RIP NECROS IN RAIDS 2017-2018

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Digit.1823" said:

> Necros, we shall remember you fondly....always, for your epidemic shenanigans. RIP NECROS IN RAIDS 2017-2018

 

That was just 2018... ;)

It was more: Rip necros in raids April/July 2018

[Astralporing.1957]

That was an... "interesting" wave of nerfs. And, as expected, Necro got practically nothing to balance the Epi nerf (i really doubt the reaper shroud changes will make enough of a difference to make power reaper a serious option, and there was nothing but nerfs for scourge). I guess by that point we'll just need to live with the fact that Necro simply doesn't deserve any good things in PvE.

[Malediktus.9250]

Weaver got nerfed also

[Astralporing.1957]

So? Almost every class got nerfed, including (for no reason i can think of) double sb sb. Weavers will remain at the top of the list, with necro now completely stably at the very bottom.

[Malediktus.9250]

They are obviously rebalancing the game without trying to powercreep further. So they nerf everything as players are too powerful anyway

[Anchoku.8142]

Epi will be almost useless with its 75% condition duration reduction on bounces. The change will also make it very easy to miss the bounce completely because every fraction of a second in delay chews through the first bounce's remaining duration faster.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Epi will be almost useless with its 75% condition duration reduction on bounces. The change will also make it very easy to miss the bounce completely because every fraction of a second in delay chews through the first bounce's remaining duration faster.

Sounds good. You can still use it to cleave adds but no longer use it as a tool for boss dps

[thrag.9740]

Wow in addition to nerfing epi, they nerfed single target dps a bit through dhuum fire and they removed some of the torment in scepter 3. Will be interested to see if necro can even hit 30k now, hopefully sc bothers to make a benchmark for it.

 

Same story as always. Necro a solid 10 maybe 20% less dps than ele and warrior. Maybe next expansion the elite spec can take away shroud, and lower necros max health to ele's health. Maybe then it will be balanced for necro to do the dps of a warrior.

 

edit: didn't understand how dhuum fire worked b4, nerf worse than I thought.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > Epi will be almost useless with its 75% condition duration reduction on bounces. The change will also make it very easy to miss the bounce completely because every fraction of a second in delay chews through the first bounce's remaining duration faster.

> Sounds good. You can still use it to cleave adds but no longer use it as a tool for boss dps

Question is, what now _should_ be used for boss dps? Because necro hardly has now any tools for that.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> Wow in addition to nerfing epi, they nerfed single target dps a bit through dhuum fire (I think this change really only affects the opener but still) and they removed some of the torment in scepter 3. Will be interested to see if necro can even hit 30k now, hopefully sc bothers to make a benchmark for it.

>

> Same story as always. Necro a solid 10 maybe 20% less dps than ele and warrior. Maybe next expansion the elite spec can take away shroud, and lower necros max health to ele's health. Maybe then it will be balanced for necro to do the dps of a warrior.

 

Ironically, now, the only way for necromancers to break through 30k is to fill your raid with necromancers and still doing this won't grant the necromancers a dps close to what other professions can land.

[thrag.9740]

Wait can someone please explain how dhuum fire worked before patch and after? I was under the impression that summoning a shade triggered it and gave 1 stack of burning. Was there some other way to trigger the trait as scourge? I know that a long time ago desert shroud triggered it but that was a bug I thought.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> Wait can someone please explain how dhuum fire worked before patch and after? I was under the impression that summoning a shade triggered it and gave 1 stack of burning. Was there some other way to trigger the trait as scourge? I know that a long time ago desert shroud triggered it but that was a bug I thought.

 

> Dhuumfire: This trait now has a cooldown when used in conjunction with the scourge specialization. This cooldown is set at 5 seconds in PvP and WvW and 3 seconds in PvE.

 

This basically prevents a burning condi burst that Scorge had by placing multiple shades. Neither core nor Reaper could do this because of the shroud transform ICD.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> Wait can someone please explain how dhuum fire worked before patch and after? I was under the impression that summoning a shade triggered it and gave 1 stack of burning. Was there some other way to trigger the trait as scourge? I know that a long time ago desert shroud triggered it but that was a bug I thought.

 

Using shade skill proc'ed minor summon sand shade which proc'ed dhummfire and a few other effects.

This is what really make scourge strong in PvP/WvW since it allow him to put 4 to 7 different conditions on it's foes dependant on the skill and build used.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > Wait can someone please explain how dhuum fire worked before patch and after? I was under the impression that summoning a shade triggered it and gave 1 stack of burning. Was there some other way to trigger the trait as scourge? I know that a long time ago desert shroud triggered it but that was a bug I thought.

>

> > Dhuumfire: This trait now has a cooldown when used in conjunction with the scourge specialization. This cooldown is set at 5 seconds in PvP and WvW and 3 seconds in PvE.

>

> This basically prevents a burning condi burst that Scorge had by placing multiple shades. Neither core nor Reaper could do this because of the shroud transform ICD.

 

Ok that's what I thought, so if you did an opener where you place 2 shrouds, your only losing 1 stack of burning on the opener, and then after that it is irrelevant right? Overall not bad for pve/raid

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > Wait can someone please explain how dhuum fire worked before patch and after? I was under the impression that summoning a shade triggered it and gave 1 stack of burning. Was there some other way to trigger the trait as scourge? I know that a long time ago desert shroud triggered it but that was a bug I thought.

> >

> > > Dhuumfire: This trait now has a cooldown when used in conjunction with the scourge specialization. This cooldown is set at 5 seconds in PvP and WvW and 3 seconds in PvE.

> >

> > This basically prevents a burning condi burst that Scorge had by placing multiple shades. Neither core nor Reaper could do this because of the shroud transform ICD.

>

> Ok that's what I thought, so if you did an opener where you place 2 shrouds, your only losing 1 stack of burning on the opener, and then after that it is irrelevant right? Overall not bad for pve/raid

 

More precisely, you will never get more than 1 new stack of burning from Dhuumfire every 5 seconds in PvP or 3 seconds elsewhere.

[DragonFury.6243]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> Just as a sidenote, btw.

> Strangely enough I'm not against nerfing Epi. But the Necro not being **heavily** compensated for it, is just wrong! If you look at the history, they deserve it the most (with maybe the exception of the Revenant, but it literally has less history as well).

>

> (btw, I'm only talking about the PvE endgame here! Not PvP and WvW)

 

they did compensated for nerfng epi by 75% with further nerf to dhumm fire and scepter

#feelbadman

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > Just as a sidenote, btw.

> > Strangely enough I'm not against nerfing Epi. But the Necro not being **heavily** compensated for it, is just wrong! If you look at the history, they deserve it the most (with maybe the exception of the Revenant, but it literally has less history as well).

> >

> > (btw, I'm only talking about the PvE endgame here! Not PvP and WvW)

>

> they did compensated for nerfng epi by 75% with further nerf to dhumm fire and scepter

> #feelbadman

 

nah, they compensated it by teaching flesh golem how to swim

[NotOverlyCheesy.9427]

It's pretty sad that every time necro has been somewhat meta for PvE it's been because of unintended interactions (minions and epi bounce). Now that epi is gutted Anet please try to balance necro properly with other dps classes.