Ohoni.6057 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone. > > > > > > > > This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped. > > > > The problem is, the things that I see as problems, you see as virtues. I've told you which steps I'm having difficulty with and what it would take to resolve them, and so far you answer is "no, you can't have any of that, but have you tried just getting out of that chair and walking? I do it every day." > > So your answer is "if I don't want to get out of the chair, nobody should ever need to"? Come on. Again, I've made clear the help *I* need to get into raiding. You refuse to allow that aid to be provided. You're perfectly willing to "help," so long as I do it entirely on your terms, you're willing to help me play like you, but not willing to let me play like me and still be successful. That is not how helping works. It is just pretending to be helpful to avoid doing the hard work of actually solving anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone. > > > > > > > > > > This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped. > > > > > > The problem is, the things that I see as problems, you see as virtues. I've told you which steps I'm having difficulty with and what it would take to resolve them, and so far you answer is "no, you can't have any of that, but have you tried just getting out of that chair and walking? I do it every day." > > > > So your answer is "if I don't want to get out of the chair, nobody should ever need to"? Come on. > > Again, I've made clear the help *I* need to get into raiding. You refuse to allow that aid to be provided. You're perfectly willing to "help," so long as I do it entirely on your terms, you're willing to help me play like you, but not willing to let me play like me and still be successful. That is not how helping works. It is just pretending to be helpful to **_avoid doing the hard work of actually solving anything. _** so basicly what you want to do with raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eramonster.2718 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > I posted an idea on how to do that on page 2 or 3. There's also a link to it up on this page some where. I'm on my dumbphone atm so I can't repost it :/ > > Found this: > >Another thought: what if we buffed the pre event, but added a scaing fa tor to it? > > and this: > > This maaay be a bit far off, but what if, and bear me out, instead of reworking vg, we rework the pre event that leads to it? Currently I find that the preevent, which is supposed to teach the mechanic, ends far too soon. Additionally, it is usually done while waiting for the lfg to fill even in training runs (I've done this myself). What if instead of 3 guardians lined up, we have to walk to the arena and see the pylons powering the barrier. As we try to disable the pylon, unstable energy is released and attacks us in the form of the guardian with a colour matching the pylon. If the group only deactivates 1 pylon, the 1/3 lava floor will be active. 2/3 if 2 were deactivated, and add the bullet hell if all 3 were deactivated at once. We could also relocate the respawn point to be under glenna, or right before the arena. Move the ley rift there or 1 of the pact members and give it an option to reset the pylons as long as vg hasn't heen summoned or killed. Thoughts on this? > > Buffing the pre-event so they don't die as fast is a bad idea that will punish other players for no reason and second not actually help because there will still be enough time to kill them before the team is full. > The second rework doesn't look like it stops the killing of the pre-events, only removes them completely and adds another way to scale the event. Agree with maddoctor.2738. Buffing the pre event will also extend the clear time (effect players with tight schedules) which is bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped. > > > > > > > > The problem is, the things that I see as problems, you see as virtues. I've told you which steps I'm having difficulty with and what it would take to resolve them, and so far you answer is "no, you can't have any of that, but have you tried just getting out of that chair and walking? I do it every day." > > > > > > So your answer is "if I don't want to get out of the chair, nobody should ever need to"? Come on. > > > > Again, I've made clear the help *I* need to get into raiding. You refuse to allow that aid to be provided. You're perfectly willing to "help," so long as I do it entirely on your terms, you're willing to help me play like you, but not willing to let me play like me and still be successful. That is not how helping works. It is just pretending to be helpful to **_avoid doing the hard work of actually solving anything. _** > > so basicly what you want to do with raids. Again. . . ahem. . . **WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A GAME.** Ok, can we agree that we are clear on this yet? A game should not be "hard work," a game should be *fun.* The "hard work," if there is any, should be on the part of the people being paid, not the people doing the paying. If I am in the game, and I am not enjoying what I'm doing, then something has gone horribly wrong. Could I clear the raid stages? Kitten yeah I *could* complete the raid stages, that's never been in question. Could I *enjoy* clearing the raid stages, as they are currently designed? Kitten no, I never could, and that's why, instead of doing that and not enjoying it, I've been pushing for them to make changes to the game that would allow the non-raiding population to participate in a way that *wouldn't* be "work." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped. > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, the things that I see as problems, you see as virtues. I've told you which steps I'm having difficulty with and what it would take to resolve them, and so far you answer is "no, you can't have any of that, but have you tried just getting out of that chair and walking? I do it every day." > > > > > > > > So your answer is "if I don't want to get out of the chair, nobody should ever need to"? Come on. > > > > > > Again, I've made clear the help *I* need to get into raiding. You refuse to allow that aid to be provided. You're perfectly willing to "help," so long as I do it entirely on your terms, you're willing to help me play like you, but not willing to let me play like me and still be successful. That is not how helping works. It is just pretending to be helpful to **_avoid doing the hard work of actually solving anything. _** > > > > so basicly what you want to do with raids. > > Again. . . > > ahem. . . > > **WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A GAME.** > > Ok, can we agree that we are clear on this yet? > > A game should not be "hard work," a game should be *fun.* > > The "hard work," if there is any, should be on the part of the people being paid, not the people doing the paying. > > If I am in the game, and I am not enjoying what I'm doing, then something has gone horribly wrong. > > Could I clear the raid stages? Kitten yeah I *could* complete the raid stages, that's never been in question. > > Could I *enjoy* clearing the raid stages, as they are currently designed? Kitten no, I never could, and that's why, instead of doing that and not enjoying it, I've been pushing for them to make changes to the game that would allow the non-raiding population to participate in a way that *wouldn't* be "work." and i thought fun is subjective? or is it only when you need it to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped. > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, the things that I see as problems, you see as virtues. I've told you which steps I'm having difficulty with and what it would take to resolve them, and so far you answer is "no, you can't have any of that, but have you tried just getting out of that chair and walking? I do it every day." > > > > > > > > > > So your answer is "if I don't want to get out of the chair, nobody should ever need to"? Come on. > > > > > > > > Again, I've made clear the help *I* need to get into raiding. You refuse to allow that aid to be provided. You're perfectly willing to "help," so long as I do it entirely on your terms, you're willing to help me play like you, but not willing to let me play like me and still be successful. That is not how helping works. It is just pretending to be helpful to **_avoid doing the hard work of actually solving anything. _** > > > > > > so basicly what you want to do with raids. > > > > Again. . . > > > > ahem. . . > > > > **WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A GAME.** > > > > Ok, can we agree that we are clear on this yet? > > > > A game should not be "hard work," a game should be *fun.* > > > > The "hard work," if there is any, should be on the part of the people being paid, not the people doing the paying. > > > > If I am in the game, and I am not enjoying what I'm doing, then something has gone horribly wrong. > > > > Could I clear the raid stages? Kitten yeah I *could* complete the raid stages, that's never been in question. > > > > Could I *enjoy* clearing the raid stages, as they are currently designed? Kitten no, I never could, and that's why, instead of doing that and not enjoying it, I've been pushing for them to make changes to the game that would allow the non-raiding population to participate in a way that *wouldn't* be "work." > > and i thought fun is subjective? > or is it only when you need it to be? Fun is *definitely* subjective. If *you* have fun doing the current raids, that's *awesome!* I want you to continue having that fun! But I never could, which is why I'm asking for an alternative, one that I, and I believe many others, would find just as fun as you find the current ones, so that you can play yours, and I can play mine, and we can *both* have fun without harming each other in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, the things that I see as problems, you see as virtues. I've told you which steps I'm having difficulty with and what it would take to resolve them, and so far you answer is "no, you can't have any of that, but have you tried just getting out of that chair and walking? I do it every day." > > > > > > > > > > > > So your answer is "if I don't want to get out of the chair, nobody should ever need to"? Come on. > > > > > > > > > > Again, I've made clear the help *I* need to get into raiding. You refuse to allow that aid to be provided. You're perfectly willing to "help," so long as I do it entirely on your terms, you're willing to help me play like you, but not willing to let me play like me and still be successful. That is not how helping works. It is just pretending to be helpful to **_avoid doing the hard work of actually solving anything. _** > > > > > > > > so basicly what you want to do with raids. > > > > > > Again. . . > > > > > > ahem. . . > > > > > > **WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A GAME.** > > > > > > Ok, can we agree that we are clear on this yet? > > > > > > A game should not be "hard work," a game should be *fun.* > > > > > > The "hard work," if there is any, should be on the part of the people being paid, not the people doing the paying. > > > > > > If I am in the game, and I am not enjoying what I'm doing, then something has gone horribly wrong. > > > > > > Could I clear the raid stages? Kitten yeah I *could* complete the raid stages, that's never been in question. > > > > > > Could I *enjoy* clearing the raid stages, as they are currently designed? Kitten no, I never could, and that's why, instead of doing that and not enjoying it, I've been pushing for them to make changes to the game that would allow the non-raiding population to participate in a way that *wouldn't* be "work." > > > > and i thought fun is subjective? > > or is it only when you need it to be? > > Fun is *definitely* subjective. > > If *you* have fun doing the current raids, that's *awesome!* I want you to continue having that fun! > > But I never could, which is why I'm asking for an alternative, one that I, and I believe many others, would find just as fun as you find the current ones, so that you can play yours, and I can play mine, and we can *both* have fun without harming each other in any way. Then play the living story instances, where you will have the same experience. There are even more bosses then in raids. You are not even forced to group up with people there. And again: Raids ARE an alternative to the open world content. You said it yourself, its a NICHE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: >Then play the living story instances, where you will have the same experience. There are even more bosses then in raids. Those are different experiences. They have different environments and bosses, different reward structures. That's not what we're working on here. Here we're talking about the raids, the same as the current ones, only *easier.* Again, if that doesn't sound like something you'd enjoy, that's fine, there would be *no* reason for you to ever participate in them. No content you couldn't experience in hard mode, no rewards you couldn't find in hard mode, if you prefer hard mode, you'd be missing out on nothing by never doing easy mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 3, 2018 Author Share Posted May 3, 2018 Again?? On to feedback: > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > I posted an idea on how to do that on page 2 or 3. There's also a link to it up on this page some where. I'm on my dumbphone atm so I can't repost it :/ > > Found this: > >Another thought: what if we buffed the pre event, but added a scaing fa tor to it? > > and this: > > This maaay be a bit far off, but what if, and bear me out, instead of reworking vg, we rework the pre event that leads to it? Currently I find that the preevent, which is supposed to teach the mechanic, ends far too soon. Additionally, it is usually done while waiting for the lfg to fill even in training runs (I've done this myself). What if instead of 3 guardians lined up, we have to walk to the arena and see the pylons powering the barrier. As we try to disable the pylon, unstable energy is released and attacks us in the form of the guardian with a colour matching the pylon. If the group only deactivates 1 pylon, the 1/3 lava floor will be active. 2/3 if 2 were deactivated, and add the bullet hell if all 3 were deactivated at once. We could also relocate the respawn point to be under glenna, or right before the arena. Move the ley rift there or 1 of the pact members and give it an option to reset the pylons as long as vg hasn't heen summoned or killed. Thoughts on this? > > Buffing the pre-event so they don't die as fast is a bad idea that will punish other players for no reason and second not actually help because there will still be enough time to kill them before the team is full. True I suppose, but if it can still be done prior to filling, would it be that significant though? > The second rework doesn't look like it stops the killing of the pre-events, only removes them completely and adds another way to scale the event. This is why I suggested adding a way to reset it for training runs to practice under a more controlled environment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > >Then play the living story instances, where you will have the same experience. There are even more bosses then in raids. > > Those are different experiences. They have different environments and bosses, different reward structures. That's not what we're working on here. Here we're talking about the raids, the same as the current ones, only *easier.* > > Again, if that doesn't sound like something you'd enjoy, that's fine, there would be *no* reason for you to ever participate in them. No content you couldn't experience in hard mode, no rewards you couldn't find in hard mode, if you prefer hard mode, you'd be missing out on nothing by never doing easy mode. > Look, i know you think you sound reasonable , but in reality it will take development time for the raid team (don´t even start whith you "but its easy arguments", we are talking real world here). It would delay raids in generall even more. (its been 6 month already, 10 month before that). So you would ACTUALLY take something away from me. How would you feel if they skip 2 or 3 living story chapters for your easymode (which you would play once and then forget if they don´t include legendary armour in it) Raids are by anets definition challenging content. It should stay that way. you still have the ultimate (hrhr) gamemode all for yourself, with plenty to do,i guess. Try bounties btw, same experience as raids without the challenge, or demand bounties with raid boss skins (boss and drops) which would be much easier to impliment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone. > > > > > > > > > > This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped. > > > > > > The problem is, the things that I see as problems, you see as virtues. I've told you which steps I'm having difficulty with and what it would take to resolve them, and so far you answer is "no, you can't have any of that, but have you tried just getting out of that chair and walking? I do it every day." > > > > So your answer is "if I don't want to get out of the chair, nobody should ever need to"? Come on. > > Again, I've made clear the help *I* need to get into raiding. You refuse to allow that aid to be provided. You're perfectly willing to "help," so long as I do it entirely on your terms, you're willing to help me play like you, but not willing to let me play like me and still be successful. That is not how helping works. It is just pretending to be helpful to avoid doing the hard work of actually solving anything. Yeah, you've made it clear that you don't want anyone to ever need out of the chairs. Unrealistic, impractical and egoistical. Get real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > True I suppose, but if it can still be done prior to filling, would it be that significant though? If the purpose of the change is so it's not doable before filling, then it will hurt non-training groups the most. And it will extend the time needed to beat Vale Guardian. Now some change that could happen is give the ability to the players to spawn the colored guardian of their choice, so instead of appearing in a random order, you get to choose their order. That way you can practice the mechanics you want more easily, plus it would help with kill time all groups, for example if your condition damage spots haven't filled and the red guardian is first, you need to do some careful avoidance around it to engage the other guardians. By spawning them in the order you want you help kill times, and at the same allow players who want to practice a specific version to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > So you would ACTUALLY take something away from me. Again, we still don't know how much time, if any, it would take away from the raid team itself (verses other staff). But let's set that aside, IF you had a signed guarantee that it would *never* be allowed to set back the release of a new raid expansion, IF that were the case, then under that condition, *however* unrealistic you might believe it to be, would you agree that the easy mode raid would be a nice thing to have? >How would you feel if they skip 2 or 3 living story chapters for your easymode (which you would play once and then forget if they don´t include legendary armour in it) If it didn't have Legendary armor in it then it wouldn't be my easymode. But setting that aside, I wouldn't want them to skip 2-3 living story chapters, I just don't believe for a second that that's the tradeoff it would take. It's like if I came to you and said "hey, how would *you* like to have a pizza, delivered *to - your - house?* How cool would that be, huh? It'll only take three months each time and cost $500 per pizza." Well, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that probably sounds like a lousy deal that, I, at least, would not sign on to. But that doesn't mean that pizza delivery is a bad idea in principle, and the timetable and pricing quoted is just an unreasonable way to do it. >Try bounties btw, same experience as raids without the challenge, or demand bounties with raid boss skins (boss and drops) which would be much easier to impliment. No, again, bounties are a completely different thing. Trust me, I'm aware of all the options currently available to me in the game, and none of them are easy mode raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > Again?? > > > On to feedback: Back to your topic, what do you think of the idea posted in the other thread, about letting players 20-man the bosses for no rewards? At VG it should work perfectly - you could outheal everything, you could spare 4 players on a green duty permanently, the CC phase should be much quicker, even the blue ports shouldn't be much of an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > So you would ACTUALLY take something away from me. > > Again, we still don't know how much time, if any, it would take away from the raid team itself (verses other staff). > > But let's set that aside, IF you had a signed guarantee that it would *never* be allowed to set back the release of a new raid expansion, IF that were the case, then under that condition, *however* unrealistic you might believe it to be, would you agree that the easy mode raid would be a nice thing to have? > i would still find it useless, since (again) subjectivly speaking, the current raids, without the challenge attached to it offers no more gamplay expierence than the mordremoth fight. At least there wouldn´t be any unskippable dialouges (yay!) but again, i think that that gameplay expierence is already well served with constant open world updates. > >How would you feel if they skip 2 or 3 living story chapters for your easymode (which you would play once and then forget if they don´t include legendary armour in it) > > If it didn't have Legendary armor in it then it wouldn't be my easymode. > well better not start to argue about that then :) > But setting that aside, I wouldn't want them to skip 2-3 living story chapters, I just don't believe for a second that that's the tradeoff it would take. It's like if I came to you and said "hey, how would *you* like to have a pizza, delivered *to - your - house?* How cool would that be, huh? It'll only take three months each time and cost $500 per pizza." Well, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that probably sounds like a lousy deal that, I, at least, would not sign on to. But that doesn't mean that pizza delivery is a bad idea in principle, and the timetable and pricing quoted is just an unreasonable way to do it. > Please no more (sorry to say) stupid comparisons. So what about 1 chapter then? Which is a reasonable timetable to overhaul 5 wings. > >Try bounties btw, same experience as raids without the challenge, or demand bounties with raid boss skins (boss and drops) which would be much easier to impliment. > > No, again, bounties are a completely different thing. Trust me, I'm aware of all the options currently available to me in the game, and none of them are easy mode raids. Its all about labeling then, since easy mode raids is nothing other then bounty,world boss, story instance, hero point.....if you take away the challenge and the rewards. Trust me, i am other then you playing raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > Again?? > > > > > > On to feedback: > > Back to your topic, what do you think of the idea posted in the other thread, about letting players 20-man the bosses for no rewards? At VG it should work perfectly - you could outheal everything, you could spare 4 players on a green duty permanently, the CC phase should be much quicker, even the blue ports shouldn't be much of an issue. What would be the point of it? It wouldn't be good training, since players could implement totally different tactics. It would also almost certainly be much harder to implement than easy mode raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > Again?? > > > > > > > > > On to feedback: > > > > Back to your topic, what do you think of the idea posted in the other thread, about letting players 20-man the bosses for no rewards? At VG it should work perfectly - you could outheal everything, you could spare 4 players on a green duty permanently, the CC phase should be much quicker, even the blue ports shouldn't be much of an issue. > > What would be the point of it? It wouldn't be good training, since players could implement totally different tactics. It would also almost certainly be much harder to implement than easy mode raids. It would most definitely be *much* easier to implement. Orders of magnitude easier. It wouldn't be any training - although it *would* be better training than easy mode as at least the mechanics would be the same so you'd have an incentive not to get ported by a blue when tanking for instance - but it would serve to quell some complaints. Minor effort for minor gain, seems fair. As opposed to major effort for minor gain, which seems a waste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > Again?? > > > > > > > > > > > > On to feedback: > > > > > > Back to your topic, what do you think of the idea posted in the other thread, about letting players 20-man the bosses for no rewards? At VG it should work perfectly - you could outheal everything, you could spare 4 players on a green duty permanently, the CC phase should be much quicker, even the blue ports shouldn't be much of an issue. > > > > What would be the point of it? It wouldn't be good training, since players could implement totally different tactics. It would also almost certainly be much harder to implement than easy mode raids. > > It would most definitely be *much* easier to implement. Orders of magnitude easier. It wouldn't be any training - although it *would* be better training than easy mode as at least the mechanics would be the same so you'd have an incentive not to get ported by a blue when tanking for instance - but it would serve to quell some complaints. Minor effort for minor gain, seems fair. As opposed to major effort for minor gain, which seems a waste. I still highly doubt it would be as easy to implement. The current raids involve "raid squads," which I seem to remember had some hiccups early on, I think expanding them to potentially 20 players would be complicated. It's also unclear on whether the boss mechanics are able to scale to 20 people easily, sometimes that can be trouble when a feature comes in contact with WvW, for example. The mechanics would be intact in easy mode, so that part wouldn't change, and when there is a specific role that needs filling, like the tank, you would still need to get a fully qualified player to fill that role. Adding more players would increase the raw DPS and free up more players to fill pure support roles, so obviously it would be easier in a lot of ways, but without any rewards *or* practical training value, I just don't see what it would accomplish, beyond people giving it a try once or twice. If it is super easy to implement, then ok, but I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 More complicated than completely rebalancing 17 unique encounters (not even counting the pre-events, which will need to be rebalanced as well), plus the need for a separate balance for every encounter ever released from now on? I don't think you actually believe that. And no, the one thing that would not be intact in easy mode is the mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > More complicated than completely rebalancing 17 unique encounters (not even counting the pre-events, which will need to be rebalanced as well), plus the need for a separate balance for every encounter ever released from now on? I don't think you actually believe that. > > And no, the one thing that would not be intact in easy mode is the mechanics. Yes, I believe more complicated than rebalancing them to the standards I described (which is *not* as tightly balanced as some of you might want). Now, eventually the cost of balancing new encounters might add up to more than implementing the 20-man squads, but it's comparing a little bit of time here and there to a lot of time up front. >And no, the one thing that would not be intact in easy mode is the mechanics. They would be more intact in easy mode than they would be with twenty players running around in hard. I mean, yes, I've been talking about reducing the damage of the green circles, but if you had twenty players on the map, sharing out buffs, maybe a higher average tankiness (because more players to DPS), more rez skills, more players freed up to hand-rez players, and of course a dozen players with nothing better to do than find that circle, I doubt any group would ever have to worry about wiping over it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 You're heavily underplaying the cost of rebalancing all the encounters and you're heavily overrating the cost of adding a new squad type. Which is exactly the same as the existing ones, only differing in capacity. I refuse to believe you're *that* bad at estimating the amount of work either would take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerioth.7062 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 Let us not forget that Wing 4 (Bastion of the Penitent) ws rushed in development and as result it ended up undertuned. This is why making an easy mode is not as simple as it sounds - w4 already is an easy mode to us who are used to w1-w3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 3, 2018 Author Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > True I suppose, but if it can still be done prior to filling, would it be that significant though? > > If the purpose of the change is so it's not doable before filling, then it will hurt non-training groups the most. And it will extend the time needed to beat Vale Guardian. Now some change that could happen is give the ability to the players to spawn the colored guardian of their choice, so instead of appearing in a random order, you get to choose their order. That way you can practice the mechanics you want more easily, plus it would help with kill time all groups, for example if your condition damage spots haven't filled and the red guardian is first, you need to do some careful avoidance around it to engage the other guardians. By spawning them in the order you want you help kill times, and at the same allow players who want to practice a specific version to do so. Can't thumbs up and helpful at the same time :/. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > Again?? > > > > > > On to feedback: > > Back to your topic, what do you think of the idea posted in the other thread, about letting players 20-man the bosses for no rewards? At VG it should work perfectly - you could outheal everything, you could spare 4 players on a green duty permanently, the CC phase should be much quicker, even the blue ports shouldn't be much of an issue. I think it would be fun. Though it could cause a few potatoes to crash and burn XD. I suppose the extra people could help as a safetynet, be that missing body on a green when a trainee misses, though how will they know they missed something they were supposed to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > I think it would be fun. Though it could cause a few potatoes to crash and burn XD. I suppose the extra people could help as a safetynet, be that missing body on a green when a trainee misses, though how will they know they missed something they were supposed to do? > First time the whole raid gets smacked by a missed green they'll figure it out. The thing is, in an environment like this, one player that knows the mechanics can be enough. Since the rest can underperform quite a lot and still make it, due to the higher numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > You're heavily underplaying the cost of rebalancing all the encounters and you're heavily overrating the cost of adding a new squad type. Which is exactly the same as the existing ones, only differing in capacity. I refuse to believe you're *that* bad at estimating the amount of work either would take. Remember that they had difficulty building raid squads in the first place, even though they are just "squads with different capacities." I doubt it's effortless. Now, what about the other point I made, that just by adding twenty players to the mix, it would make the encounter far more casual and "broken" than any easy mode I've advocated for? > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > Let us not forget that Wing 4 (Bastion of the Penitent) ws rushed in development and as result it ended up undertuned. This is why making an easy mode is not as simple as it sounds - w4 already is an easy mode to us who are used to w1-w3. It's actually easy to do precisely for the reason to stated, "undertuning" something is a lot easier than "tuning it just right." Easy mode doesn't need to be perfect, it won't disappoint anyone if it's "too easy." and if they get it wrong, they can tweak it later without having the outrage that releasing an "undertuned" raid that everyone sails through would cause. Again, I don't expect simultaneous releases, I expect that even if they get caught up, they would hold off easy mode versions for a few months after the hard, so that players could not "cheese their way to solutions" in easy mode, but taking a working "balanced" mode, and then tweaking it to be easier is a lot easier to do than taking a fairly easy mode and tuning it up to be "challenging." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now