Draco.9480 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > no one really needs people who just come for the rewards. raids aren't for you if you think they need easy mode. raids meant to be the most difficult end game and force people to improve and be better team. if you come and just attack without rotation nor do real tactics then don't come to raid cuz you'll regret it. > > Agreed, this is why we need an easy mode so that those players have an option that *doesn't* involve cluttering up the existing raid pools. > > > it's the reason not to let 'em have easy mode so they won't have the option to raid without thinking. there are only 2 doors: 1 to work towards raids and do raids or not to work and not do 'em. there's no 3rd door to easy mode raid. as i said it should force people to improve and do better in raids if they want to raid if not then no raids for 'em in any possible way, even not watching videos of raid cuz they'll get offended others do and he doesn't cuz he couldn't care less about effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Draco.9480" said: > it's the reason not to let 'em have easy mode so they won't have the option to raid without thinking. there are only 2 doors: 1 to work towards raids and do raids or not to work and not do 'em. there's no 3rd door to easy mode raid. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place. > > > > > > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work. > > > > > > > As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it. > > I never said _need_ and since it is just frivolous entertainment of course it's purely a matter of want and choice, it's not my job after all it's a past time to escape from my job, thank you for stating the obvious, now, back to the actual question. "Why should I have to work at playing a game?" My point exactly - you shouldn't. Nothing forces you do, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. If it feels that way, then just don't. Simple. I fail to see the point of complaining a specific activity doesn't suit your tastes in a "frivolous entertainment". If I don't like a particular genre of movies, I don't go to a cinema to watch one of these. If I don't like a particular dessert, I don't order it. Simple. Your further attempts to take the position of a martyr are not particularly convincing. Primarily because it *IS* unfair to give the same rewards for substantially less effort. It's not that you're "filthy casuals". It's that you want to remain one, but be rewarded like you weren't. It's not fair toward all those who had to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure. You want to skip all that? Sure, it's a valid choice. But you don't get the same results. In much a same way you don't get "A"-s on your exams without studying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: >My point exactly - you shouldn't. Nothing forces you do, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. No, I'm sorry. You can't eat your cake and have it too on this one. You can't play both "you don't have to do it, you can just choose not to" AND "but this is the only place you can experience certain parts of the game's story or work towards certain high profile rewards" at the same time. They are mutually exclusive positions. >Your further attempts to take the position of a martyr are not particularly convincing. Primarily because it IS unfair to give the same rewards for substantially less effort. Nobody is asking for the same rewards for less effort, the request on the table is for the same rewards for *equivalent but different* effort. 1000 pennies instead of 10 dollar bills. >It's not fair toward all those who had to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure. Well, I believe a wise man once said, " Nothing forces you to, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. If it feels that way, then just don't. Simple." If you don't *enjoy* the process of learning, understanding, and improving through practice and failure, then *don't do it.* Don't play those hard mode raids. But if you *do* enjoy doing those things, then you can hardly complain that "it's just *suuuuuch* a burden on you that they absolutely *must* shower you with riches just to *compensate* your incredible sacrifice to humanity!" Who's playing the martyr now? If a person enjoys raiding as much as you claim to, then you should be paying them extra for the opportunity, not the other way around. You aren't "owed" jack sparrow. If they choose to offer cool rewards, that's great and all, but stop acting like you're entitled to them just because you enjoy raiding and others don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > >My point exactly - you shouldn't. Nothing forces you do, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. > > No, I'm sorry. You can't eat your cake and have it too on this one. You can't play both "you don't have to do it, you can just choose not to" AND "but this is the only place you can experience certain parts of the game's story or work towards certain high profile rewards" at the same time. They are mutually exclusive positions. No, they aren't. You don't have to enjoy a specific experience, therefore you're not required to participate in it. It's a *game*. Play what's fun for you, ignore the rest. Is that concept so hard to grasp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place. > > > > > > > > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work. > > > > > > > > > > As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it. > > > > I never said _need_ and since it is just frivolous entertainment of course it's purely a matter of want and choice, it's not my job after all it's a past time to escape from my job, thank you for stating the obvious, now, back to the actual question. "Why should I have to work at playing a game?" > > My point exactly - you shouldn't. Nothing forces you do, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. If it feels that way, then just don't. Simple. I fail to see the point of complaining a specific activity doesn't suit your tastes in a "frivolous entertainment". If I don't like a particular genre of movies, I don't go to a cinema to watch one of these. If I don't like a particular dessert, I don't order it. Simple. > > Your further attempts to take the position of a martyr are not particularly convincing. Primarily because it *IS* unfair to give the same rewards for substantially less effort. It's not that you're "filthy casuals". It's that you want to remain one, but be rewarded like you weren't. It's not fair toward all those who had to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure. You want to skip all that? Sure, it's a valid choice. But you don't get the same results. In much a same way you don't get "A"-s on your exams without studying. "It's not fair toward all those who **had** to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure." No.. No.. No.. You have already established that _no one had to do anything_ , as such they _chose_ to. So saying that again. "It's not fair toward all those who **chose** to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure." Nope.. this is where everything falls apart, The reason why this is, is because it is _purely a matter of choice_ what we do with our leisure time, and just because someone has chosen to challenge themselves, does not mean they will get, _nor do they deserve_, some greater reward for it, when it was something they _chosen_ to do of their own volition. Let me give you an example of a real life scenario of how things work when it is a _matter of choice_ I live near a mountain that has a stunning view from the top, people bike, run and climb this mountain all summer long to see the view. As a local, I drive my jeep. You know what? _We all get, the same view_ for our efforts, even if the person on the bike put in a huge amount more effort then I did, and the person climbing risked their life, they still only get the same view for their efforts. That's the reality of frivolous entertainment done by choice. So.. no.. you don't _deserve_ a better reward, simply because you chose to put in more effort, you simply feel entitled to one. Loved the Movie Analogy.. nice way to say "Love it or Leave it" I hope people follow your advice and you get what you want.. or _at least what you ask for_. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it. > > > > > > I never said _need_ and since it is just frivolous entertainment of course it's purely a matter of want and choice, it's not my job after all it's a past time to escape from my job, thank you for stating the obvious, now, back to the actual question. "Why should I have to work at playing a game?" > > > > My point exactly - you shouldn't. Nothing forces you do, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. If it feels that way, then just don't. Simple. I fail to see the point of complaining a specific activity doesn't suit your tastes in a "frivolous entertainment". If I don't like a particular genre of movies, I don't go to a cinema to watch one of these. If I don't like a particular dessert, I don't order it. Simple. > > > > Your further attempts to take the position of a martyr are not particularly convincing. Primarily because it *IS* unfair to give the same rewards for substantially less effort. It's not that you're "filthy casuals". It's that you want to remain one, but be rewarded like you weren't. It's not fair toward all those who had to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure. You want to skip all that? Sure, it's a valid choice. But you don't get the same results. In much a same way you don't get "A"-s on your exams without studying. > > "It's not fair toward all those who **had** to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure." > > No.. No.. No.. You have already established that _no one had to do anything_ , as such they _chose_ to. OK. It's not fair toward those who received the same thing for choosing to do something hard. P.S. You can twist semantics all you like. It's still not fair, and it's quite obvious that it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it. > > > > > > > > I never said _need_ and since it is just frivolous entertainment of course it's purely a matter of want and choice, it's not my job after all it's a past time to escape from my job, thank you for stating the obvious, now, back to the actual question. "Why should I have to work at playing a game?" > > > > > > My point exactly - you shouldn't. Nothing forces you do, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. If it feels that way, then just don't. Simple. I fail to see the point of complaining a specific activity doesn't suit your tastes in a "frivolous entertainment". If I don't like a particular genre of movies, I don't go to a cinema to watch one of these. If I don't like a particular dessert, I don't order it. Simple. > > > > > > Your further attempts to take the position of a martyr are not particularly convincing. Primarily because it *IS* unfair to give the same rewards for substantially less effort. It's not that you're "filthy casuals". It's that you want to remain one, but be rewarded like you weren't. It's not fair toward all those who had to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure. You want to skip all that? Sure, it's a valid choice. But you don't get the same results. In much a same way you don't get "A"-s on your exams without studying. > > > > "It's not fair toward all those who **had** to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure." > > > > No.. No.. No.. You have already established that _no one had to do anything_ , as such they _chose_ to. > > OK. It's not fair toward those who received the same thing for choosing to do something hard. > > P.S. You can twist semantics all you like. It's still not fair, and it's quite obvious that it isn't. No.. since they _chose_ to do something hard, they don't _deserve_ anything for it. because it was purely their choice. See, that is why this game had issues, it started to cater to the _entitled group_ of players, players who felt they _deserve_ something for playing a game, see, if they had stayed by their original design, where difficulty was purely cosmetic, IE: where Arah gave the same Rewards as AC, and the variable was purely cosmetic, we would not have these problems. It was good game design to do that, just like the various color skins for SAB. Great Idea.. a little token to say you did some content, that is neither better nor worse then what anyone else can get, but because it is different, people will still take pride in it. In the end, it's a _game_, you don't _deserve_ anything for playing it. But, _if,you were right_ and the players that _chose_ to take the **hardest paths got the most rewards**, then players with the worst builds should get the best rewards in the game, _because they have chosen to make even the simplest tasks hard on themselves_. ...and that is why your entire stand falls apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 29, 2018 Author Share Posted April 29, 2018 If I may, you already have 2 other threads to discuss fairnness of raids. Please keep this one for ideas and discussions on alternative methods of training people for vg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 I know I had already posted some feedback, but I wouldn't mind posting an interpretation of VG that could be considered easier, given recent experiences in other, RAID-Centric games. Mind you, this isn't an endorsement of Easy-Mode as I'm still of the interpretation that GW2 should remain a game that rewards all manners of content with unique loot all their own. That being said, here's a sort of higher level analysis of the statement here: **What is an Easy Mode Vale Guardian?** An Easy Mode Vale Guardian is an easier iteration of Vale Guardian that allows newer players, inexperienced players, and those wanting to learn the encounter prior to the current iteration to defeat it. _Without even touching on the rewards_ the driving purpose behind this is to A) Still provide a 'raid-like' experience and B ) Still allow those who want more to progress onto the normal encounter which has higher stakes and rewards. So what do we need to deliver? We need to deliver a version of Vale Guardian that's _easier_ but still actively trains the players on the mechanics, as attempting to 'skip' mechanics without some sort of punishment is contrary to progressing onto normal mode. The normal mode 'mechanics' must not be trivialized to an extent that they are ignored in easy-mode entirely. **Things like reducing the damage of a particular mechanic does not always properly do this well.** That in mind, here's what I would suggest for each mechanic, the Easy-Mode Trash prior to the boss have these changes as well: - The Vale Guardian Tank Aggro is altered slightly, the first person who tags Vale Guardian has aggro throughout the entire fight unless they subsequently get defeated. This is the only major alteration that deviates heavily from the normal version, as Toughness is used as the tank check. **Punch:** Damaged reduced about 70% but still cleaves. The primary purpose behind this is that the raid should still want to face Vale Guardian away. **Distributed Magic (Green Circles):** The Green Circle delays resolving itself a second later than normal. If not enough players are in the circle everyone gets hit with a 'Lightning Vulnerable' debuff that lasts roughly 12 seconds but take no damage. If not enough players stand in the next Green Circle, those players with this debuff take **NORMAL Encounter's** worth of damage, so about 10-12k damage. If the mechanic is done properly, the debuff will wear off. This promotes the severity of this mechanic in the normal mode, while still leaving space for new raiders to practice it properly. **Unstable Magic Spike (Blue Circles)**: Damage reduced by about 25% but the Teleport range is reduced from the whole Arena to roughly 900 range of where Vale Guardian is. This mechanic isn't that dangerous but disruptive. Melee are the most prone to be teleported and the tank is included in this. Naturally the normal version where a tank gets ported can make this very serious suddenly. **Spawn Seekers (Red Orbs)** - Seekers move 50% more slowly, and deal roughly 33% less damage. Just a general 'reduced' severity in Easy-Mode for these, however a convergence of mechanics on top of these in easy-mode could complicate things. **Magic Aura** - A passive damaging aura effect present throughout the Vale Guardian fight. **REMOVED** The presumption behind easy-mode is that builds have some impact on the encounter, but not completely necessarily. A new healer can technically still have some work trying to carry a bunch of raiders through the rest of the easier mechanics. But ultimately people should be doing the encounter properly in the end. **Unstable Pylon** - Vale Guardian renders portions of the ground unstable (colored ground), damaging players standing on these portions periodically. **Damaged reduced by 50%** **Magic Storm** - Vale Guardian's Breakbar channel, breakbar reduced by 25%. Damage reduced greatly and the channel ends after 15 seconds rather than 30 seconds. **Bullet Storm** - Damaged is reduced from these white orbs by about 25%. Enrage Timer Removed. Vale Guardian health is reduced by about 20%. Benefits and intent behind these changes: The changes are tuned so that 10 players on most builds can properly do the encounter. Dodging the right stuff and proper positioning for those not tanking Vale Guardian will reduce their incoming damage to almost nil. **It shouldn't need to be said but a vast number of players don't quite understand just how potent their traits are in 10 man content.** Regeneration, Protection, Blocks, down state rez traits all can turn an encounter around especially in this easy-mode vale guardian. _The subtle motive behind many of my changes is to introduce how important a completely new player's buffs could be, they could see how their Stone Spirit or Healing Turret has a greater impact in a greater than 5 person group._ Easy-Mode Versions of the encounters cannot trivialize key mechanics. An Easy-Mode Samarog would still have to **INSTANTLY kill** a player who gets knocked into his spears on the edges of the arena, however the knockback distance could be reduced so that visually the players catch on the gimmick. Simply reducing the damage would not have sufficed for that example. _Easy Mode Raid Bosses need to keep the players engaged and have their attention._ They shouldn't become too casual like open world bosses. This is what I would have done to Vale Guardian that seems more practical to apply. Adding something like a 'Tank Button' outside his Arena is work intensive. Making him trigger on the first person that hits him is easier to implement in my perspective. I could be wrong of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 29, 2018 Author Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Sykper.6583" said: > I know I had already posted some feedback, but I wouldn't mind posting an interpretation of VG that could be considered easier, given recent experiences in other, RAID-Centric games. Mind you, this isn't an endorsement of Easy-Mode as I'm still of the interpretation that GW2 should remain a game that rewards all manners of content with unique loot all their own. That being said, here's a sort of higher level analysis of the statement here: > > **What is an Easy Mode Vale Guardian?** > An Easy Mode Vale Guardian is an easier iteration of Vale Guardian that allows newer players, inexperienced players, and those wanting to learn the encounter prior to the current iteration to defeat it. _Without even touching on the rewards_ the driving purpose behind this is to A) Still provide a 'raid-like' experience and B ) Still allow those who want more to progress onto the normal encounter which has higher stakes and rewards. > > So what do we need to deliver? We need to deliver a version of Vale Guardian that's _easier_ but still actively trains the players on the mechanics, as attempting to 'skip' mechanics without some sort of punishment is contrary to progressing onto normal mode. The normal mode 'mechanics' must not be trivialized to an extent that they are ignored in easy-mode entirely. **Things like reducing the damage of a particular mechanic does not always properly do this well.** > > That in mind, here's what I would suggest for each mechanic, the Easy-Mode Trash prior to the boss have these changes as well: > - The Vale Guardian Tank Aggro is altered slightly, the first person who tags Vale Guardian has aggro throughout the entire fight unless they subsequently get defeated. This is the only major alteration that deviates heavily from the normal version, as Toughness is used as the tank check. > > **Punch:** Damaged reduced about 70% but still cleaves. The primary purpose behind this is that the raid should still want to face Vale Guardian away. > **Distributed Magic (Green Circles):** The Green Circle delays resolving itself a second later than normal. If not enough players are in the circle everyone gets hit with a 'Lightning Vulnerable' debuff that lasts roughly 12 seconds but take no damage. If not enough players stand in the next Green Circle, those players with this debuff take **NORMAL Encounter's** worth of damage, so about 10-12k damage. If the mechanic is done properly, the debuff will wear off. This promotes the severity of this mechanic in the normal mode, while still leaving space for new raiders to practice it properly. > **Unstable Magic Spike (Blue Circles)**: Damage reduced by about 25% but the Teleport range is reduced from the whole Arena to roughly 900 range of where Vale Guardian is. This mechanic isn't that dangerous but disruptive. Melee are the most prone to be teleported and the tank is included in this. Naturally the normal version where a tank gets ported can make this very serious suddenly. > **Spawn Seekers (Red Orbs)** - Seekers move 50% more slowly, and deal roughly 33% less damage. Just a general 'reduced' severity in Easy-Mode for these, however a convergence of mechanics on top of these in easy-mode could complicate things. > **Magic Aura** - A passive damaging aura effect present throughout the Vale Guardian fight. **REMOVED** The presumption behind easy-mode is that builds have some impact on the encounter, but not completely necessarily. A new healer can technically still have some work trying to carry a bunch of raiders through the rest of the easier mechanics. But ultimately people should be doing the encounter properly in the end. > **Unstable Pylon** - Vale Guardian renders portions of the ground unstable (colored ground), damaging players standing on these portions periodically. **Damaged reduced by 50%** > **Magic Storm** - Vale Guardian's Breakbar channel, breakbar reduced by 25%. Damage reduced greatly and the channel ends after 15 seconds rather than 30 seconds. > **Bullet Storm** - Damaged is reduced from these white orbs by about 25%. > > Enrage Timer Removed. Vale Guardian health is reduced by about 20%. > > Benefits and intent behind these changes: > The changes are tuned so that 10 players on most builds can properly do the encounter. Dodging the right stuff and proper positioning for those not tanking Vale Guardian will reduce their incoming damage to almost nil. **It shouldn't need to be said but a vast number of players don't quite understand just how potent their traits are in 10 man content.** Regeneration, Protection, Blocks, down state rez traits all can turn an encounter around especially in this easy-mode vale guardian. _The subtle motive behind many of my changes is to introduce how important a completely new player's buffs could be, they could see how their Stone Spirit or Healing Turret has a greater impact in a greater than 5 person group._ > > Easy-Mode Versions of the encounters cannot trivialize key mechanics. An Easy-Mode Samarog would still have to **INSTANTLY kill** a player who gets knocked into his spears on the edges of the arena, however the knockback distance could be reduced so that visually the players catch on the gimmick. Simply reducing the damage would not have sufficed for that example. > > _Easy Mode Raid Bosses need to keep the players engaged and have their attention._ They shouldn't become too casual like open world bosses. > > This is what I would have done to Vale Guardian that seems more practical to apply. Adding something like a 'Tank Button' outside his Arena is work intensive. Making him trigger on the first person that hits him is easier to implement in my perspective. I could be wrong of course. The number on vg's autoattack nerf, and the reduction on the red's movement speed might be a bit overkill, but otherwise a good suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it. > > > > > > > > > > I never said _need_ and since it is just frivolous entertainment of course it's purely a matter of want and choice, it's not my job after all it's a past time to escape from my job, thank you for stating the obvious, now, back to the actual question. "Why should I have to work at playing a game?" > > > > > > > > My point exactly - you shouldn't. Nothing forces you do, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. If it feels that way, then just don't. Simple. I fail to see the point of complaining a specific activity doesn't suit your tastes in a "frivolous entertainment". If I don't like a particular genre of movies, I don't go to a cinema to watch one of these. If I don't like a particular dessert, I don't order it. Simple. > > > > > > > > Your further attempts to take the position of a martyr are not particularly convincing. Primarily because it *IS* unfair to give the same rewards for substantially less effort. It's not that you're "filthy casuals". It's that you want to remain one, but be rewarded like you weren't. It's not fair toward all those who had to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure. You want to skip all that? Sure, it's a valid choice. But you don't get the same results. In much a same way you don't get "A"-s on your exams without studying. > > > > > > "It's not fair toward all those who **had** to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure." > > > > > > No.. No.. No.. You have already established that _no one had to do anything_ , as such they _chose_ to. > > > > OK. It's not fair toward those who received the same thing for choosing to do something hard. > > > > P.S. You can twist semantics all you like. It's still not fair, and it's quite obvious that it isn't. > > No.. since they _chose_ to do something hard, they don't _deserve_ anything for it. because it was purely their choice. I should think choosing to do something hard is the best reason there is to say someone deserved a reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said _need_ and since it is just frivolous entertainment of course it's purely a matter of want and choice, it's not my job after all it's a past time to escape from my job, thank you for stating the obvious, now, back to the actual question. "Why should I have to work at playing a game?" > > > > > > > > > > My point exactly - you shouldn't. Nothing forces you do, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. If it feels that way, then just don't. Simple. I fail to see the point of complaining a specific activity doesn't suit your tastes in a "frivolous entertainment". If I don't like a particular genre of movies, I don't go to a cinema to watch one of these. If I don't like a particular dessert, I don't order it. Simple. > > > > > > > > > > Your further attempts to take the position of a martyr are not particularly convincing. Primarily because it *IS* unfair to give the same rewards for substantially less effort. It's not that you're "filthy casuals". It's that you want to remain one, but be rewarded like you weren't. It's not fair toward all those who had to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure. You want to skip all that? Sure, it's a valid choice. But you don't get the same results. In much a same way you don't get "A"-s on your exams without studying. > > > > > > > > "It's not fair toward all those who **had** to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure." > > > > > > > > No.. No.. No.. You have already established that _no one had to do anything_ , as such they _chose_ to. > > > > > > OK. It's not fair toward those who received the same thing for choosing to do something hard. > > > > > > P.S. You can twist semantics all you like. It's still not fair, and it's quite obvious that it isn't. > > > > No.. since they _chose_ to do something hard, they don't _deserve_ anything for it. because it was purely their choice. > > I should think choosing to do something hard is the best reason there is to say someone deserved a reward. I play an easy game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) I play a difficult game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) This is the point of gaming in general, and why all the other AAA mmorpg got this 10 years ago and progressed their raiding communities beyond a small clique trying to keep content for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 29, 2018 Author Share Posted April 29, 2018 Not the point of this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said _need_ and since it is just frivolous entertainment of course it's purely a matter of want and choice, it's not my job after all it's a past time to escape from my job, thank you for stating the obvious, now, back to the actual question. "Why should I have to work at playing a game?" > > > > > > > > > > > > My point exactly - you shouldn't. Nothing forces you do, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. If it feels that way, then just don't. Simple. I fail to see the point of complaining a specific activity doesn't suit your tastes in a "frivolous entertainment". If I don't like a particular genre of movies, I don't go to a cinema to watch one of these. If I don't like a particular dessert, I don't order it. Simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your further attempts to take the position of a martyr are not particularly convincing. Primarily because it *IS* unfair to give the same rewards for substantially less effort. It's not that you're "filthy casuals". It's that you want to remain one, but be rewarded like you weren't. It's not fair toward all those who had to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure. You want to skip all that? Sure, it's a valid choice. But you don't get the same results. In much a same way you don't get "A"-s on your exams without studying. > > > > > > > > > > "It's not fair toward all those who **had** to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure." > > > > > > > > > > No.. No.. No.. You have already established that _no one had to do anything_ , as such they _chose_ to. > > > > > > > > OK. It's not fair toward those who received the same thing for choosing to do something hard. > > > > > > > > P.S. You can twist semantics all you like. It's still not fair, and it's quite obvious that it isn't. > > > > > > No.. since they _chose_ to do something hard, they don't _deserve_ anything for it. because it was purely their choice. > > > > I should think choosing to do something hard is the best reason there is to say someone deserved a reward. > > I play an easy game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > I play a difficult game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > > This is the point of gaming in general, and why all the other AAA mmorpg got this 10 years ago and progressed their raiding communities beyond a small clique trying to keep content for themselves. > So play the easy game and get the associated rewards. Simple, right? And if you want, come along. I definitely do not try to hoard the content for myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 29, 2018 Author Share Posted April 29, 2018 This is not the point of this discussion gentlemen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said _need_ and since it is just frivolous entertainment of course it's purely a matter of want and choice, it's not my job after all it's a past time to escape from my job, thank you for stating the obvious, now, back to the actual question. "Why should I have to work at playing a game?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point exactly - you shouldn't. Nothing forces you do, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. If it feels that way, then just don't. Simple. I fail to see the point of complaining a specific activity doesn't suit your tastes in a "frivolous entertainment". If I don't like a particular genre of movies, I don't go to a cinema to watch one of these. If I don't like a particular dessert, I don't order it. Simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your further attempts to take the position of a martyr are not particularly convincing. Primarily because it *IS* unfair to give the same rewards for substantially less effort. It's not that you're "filthy casuals". It's that you want to remain one, but be rewarded like you weren't. It's not fair toward all those who had to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure. You want to skip all that? Sure, it's a valid choice. But you don't get the same results. In much a same way you don't get "A"-s on your exams without studying. > > > > > > > > > > > > "It's not fair toward all those who **had** to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure." > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. No.. No.. You have already established that _no one had to do anything_ , as such they _chose_ to. > > > > > > > > > > OK. It's not fair toward those who received the same thing for choosing to do something hard. > > > > > > > > > > P.S. You can twist semantics all you like. It's still not fair, and it's quite obvious that it isn't. > > > > > > > > No.. since they _chose_ to do something hard, they don't _deserve_ anything for it. because it was purely their choice. > > > > > > I should think choosing to do something hard is the best reason there is to say someone deserved a reward. > > > > I play an easy game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > > I play a difficult game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > > > > This is the point of gaming in general, and why all the other AAA mmorpg got this 10 years ago and progressed their raiding communities beyond a small clique trying to keep content for themselves. > > > > So play the easy game and get the associated rewards. Simple, right? And if you want, come along. I definitely do not try to hoard the content for myself. exactly so, il play easy mode when i fancy some relaxed play, and earn their rewards overtime, and will play the harder difficult if I want to do that content. What I do not do is argue against content for others when there is clearly a demand and a precedent in the genre at large. You see its not about keeping existing raids that you want for yourselves, it's people like yourself arguing against content for others, which is clearly based on self interest and not what is best for the game - because for a raider, loot is everything and prestige is everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > The number on vg's autoattack nerf, and the reduction on the red's movement speed might be a bit overkill, but otherwise a good suggestion. It depends on how far we should look at this. VG autos every 3 seconds for 8k in a cleave. Bringing it down to ~2k every 3 seconds is sizable enough in my opinion to start making the passive healing the raid applies to themselves become moot. **Unless they decide to face him away.** Honestly the red orbs are probably the most minor of mechanics in the fight and there's a lot of interplay for them between Epidemics and CC. But overall like I said before, this is a hypothetical VG if it could be arbitrarily created without resources, balance to rewards, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 29, 2018 Author Share Posted April 29, 2018 Let me redirect this conversation. I peraonally like the suggestion of adding boss mechanics to the golem in the training area, though I feel like it may be too easy. What if we make it so that we can only add the option for boss mechanics while we have the pulsing area damage option on? Also what are your opinions on adding tasks and titles to it for new players to use in lieu of insights to show that they are familiar with the mechanics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said _need_ and since it is just frivolous entertainment of course it's purely a matter of want and choice, it's not my job after all it's a past time to escape from my job, thank you for stating the obvious, now, back to the actual question. "Why should I have to work at playing a game?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point exactly - you shouldn't. Nothing forces you do, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. If it feels that way, then just don't. Simple. I fail to see the point of complaining a specific activity doesn't suit your tastes in a "frivolous entertainment". If I don't like a particular genre of movies, I don't go to a cinema to watch one of these. If I don't like a particular dessert, I don't order it. Simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your further attempts to take the position of a martyr are not particularly convincing. Primarily because it *IS* unfair to give the same rewards for substantially less effort. It's not that you're "filthy casuals". It's that you want to remain one, but be rewarded like you weren't. It's not fair toward all those who had to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure. You want to skip all that? Sure, it's a valid choice. But you don't get the same results. In much a same way you don't get "A"-s on your exams without studying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It's not fair toward all those who **had** to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. No.. No.. You have already established that _no one had to do anything_ , as such they _chose_ to. > > > > > > > > > > > > OK. It's not fair toward those who received the same thing for choosing to do something hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S. You can twist semantics all you like. It's still not fair, and it's quite obvious that it isn't. > > > > > > > > > > No.. since they _chose_ to do something hard, they don't _deserve_ anything for it. because it was purely their choice. > > > > > > > > I should think choosing to do something hard is the best reason there is to say someone deserved a reward. > > > > > > I play an easy game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > > > I play a difficult game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > > > > > > This is the point of gaming in general, and why all the other AAA mmorpg got this 10 years ago and progressed their raiding communities beyond a small clique trying to keep content for themselves. > > > > > > > So play the easy game and get the associated rewards. Simple, right? And if you want, come along. I definitely do not try to hoard the content for myself. > > exactly so, il play easy mode when i fancy some relaxed play, and earn their rewards overtime, and will play the harder difficult if I want to do that content. What I do not do is argue against content for others when there is clearly a demand and a precedent in the genre at large. You see its not about keeping existing raids that you want for yourselves, it's people like yourself arguing against content for others, which is clearly based on self interest and not what is best for the game - because for a raider, loot is everything and prestige is everything. "Demand" is kind of a stretch. I see a demand from a handful of people here, who like to think they're somehow representative for a larger number of players. This may, or may not be true. But one thing is for sure - it is not proven. Based on circumstantial evidence I'm inclined to believe you're strongly exaggerating this demand. Of course, I may be wrong about that. Furthermore, if we assume you were right and sufficient demand exists, then I have no say in this anyway. It's ANet's decision, they decide and make you easy mode to play relaxed. And earn the associated rewards. Which *will* be different. See above mentions of the word "fair". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said _need_ and since it is just frivolous entertainment of course it's purely a matter of want and choice, it's not my job after all it's a past time to escape from my job, thank you for stating the obvious, now, back to the actual question. "Why should I have to work at playing a game?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point exactly - you shouldn't. Nothing forces you do, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. If it feels that way, then just don't. Simple. I fail to see the point of complaining a specific activity doesn't suit your tastes in a "frivolous entertainment". If I don't like a particular genre of movies, I don't go to a cinema to watch one of these. If I don't like a particular dessert, I don't order it. Simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your further attempts to take the position of a martyr are not particularly convincing. Primarily because it *IS* unfair to give the same rewards for substantially less effort. It's not that you're "filthy casuals". It's that you want to remain one, but be rewarded like you weren't. It's not fair toward all those who had to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure. You want to skip all that? Sure, it's a valid choice. But you don't get the same results. In much a same way you don't get "A"-s on your exams without studying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It's not fair toward all those who **had** to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. No.. No.. You have already established that _no one had to do anything_ , as such they _chose_ to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK. It's not fair toward those who received the same thing for choosing to do something hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S. You can twist semantics all you like. It's still not fair, and it's quite obvious that it isn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. since they _chose_ to do something hard, they don't _deserve_ anything for it. because it was purely their choice. > > > > > > > > > > I should think choosing to do something hard is the best reason there is to say someone deserved a reward. > > > > > > > > I play an easy game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > > > > I play a difficult game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > > > > > > > > This is the point of gaming in general, and why all the other AAA mmorpg got this 10 years ago and progressed their raiding communities beyond a small clique trying to keep content for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > So play the easy game and get the associated rewards. Simple, right? And if you want, come along. I definitely do not try to hoard the content for myself. > > > > exactly so, il play easy mode when i fancy some relaxed play, and earn their rewards overtime, and will play the harder difficult if I want to do that content. What I do not do is argue against content for others when there is clearly a demand and a precedent in the genre at large. You see its not about keeping existing raids that you want for yourselves, it's people like yourself arguing against content for others, which is clearly based on self interest and not what is best for the game - because for a raider, loot is everything and prestige is everything. > > "Demand" is kind of a stretch. I see a demand from a handful of people here, who like to think they're somehow representative for a larger number of players. This may, or may not be true. But one thing is for sure - it is not proven. Based on circumstantial evidence I'm inclined to believe you're strongly exaggerating this demand. Of course, I may be wrong about that. > > Furthermore, if we assume you were right and sufficient demand exists, then I have no say in this anyway. It's ANet's decision, they decide and make you easy mode to play relaxed. And earn the associated rewards. Which *will* be different. See above mentions of the word "fair". actually it is proven, look at every other AAA mmorpg, or GW1 normal raiding etc etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 29, 2018 Author Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Sykper.6583" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > The number on vg's autoattack nerf, and the reduction on the red's movement speed might be a bit overkill, but otherwise a good suggestion. > > It depends on how far we should look at this. VG autos every 3 seconds for 8k in a cleave. Bringing it down to ~2k every 3 seconds is sizable enough in my opinion to start making the passive healing the raid applies to themselves become moot. **Unless they decide to face him away.** > > Honestly the red orbs are probably the most minor of mechanics in the fight and there's a lot of interplay for them between Epidemics and CC. > > But overall like I said before, this is a hypothetical VG if it could be arbitrarily created without resources, balance to rewards, etc. Fair enough. I just feel that if this were to be balanced on rock bottom as the mark, i.e people using soldiers, the a 70% nerf on aa damage would be a bit overkill, wouldn't you say? Personally I think around 20% would be good enough for an autoattack nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 The main reason I see against having an easy mode in raids is that it would mean having to make encounters several times. If rewards are removed or decreased enough, then having variable factors in enemies and their skills that be adjusted to make the fight easier without having to rework the entire fight would be acceptable. It would be a way for people to get acquainted with the content and see the story. If such a system could be implemented, it could also help in fractals. Rather than having to make the 4 tiers of a fractal, there could be just variable factors in the enemies, then bonus attacks and behaviors would be left for CM fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said _need_ and since it is just frivolous entertainment of course it's purely a matter of want and choice, it's not my job after all it's a past time to escape from my job, thank you for stating the obvious, now, back to the actual question. "Why should I have to work at playing a game?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point exactly - you shouldn't. Nothing forces you do, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. If it feels that way, then just don't. Simple. I fail to see the point of complaining a specific activity doesn't suit your tastes in a "frivolous entertainment". If I don't like a particular genre of movies, I don't go to a cinema to watch one of these. If I don't like a particular dessert, I don't order it. Simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your further attempts to take the position of a martyr are not particularly convincing. Primarily because it *IS* unfair to give the same rewards for substantially less effort. It's not that you're "filthy casuals". It's that you want to remain one, but be rewarded like you weren't. It's not fair toward all those who had to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure. You want to skip all that? Sure, it's a valid choice. But you don't get the same results. In much a same way you don't get "A"-s on your exams without studying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It's not fair toward all those who **had** to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. No.. No.. You have already established that _no one had to do anything_ , as such they _chose_ to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK. It's not fair toward those who received the same thing for choosing to do something hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S. You can twist semantics all you like. It's still not fair, and it's quite obvious that it isn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. since they _chose_ to do something hard, they don't _deserve_ anything for it. because it was purely their choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > I should think choosing to do something hard is the best reason there is to say someone deserved a reward. > > > > > > > > > > I play an easy game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > > > > > I play a difficult game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > > > > > > > > > > This is the point of gaming in general, and why all the other AAA mmorpg got this 10 years ago and progressed their raiding communities beyond a small clique trying to keep content for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > So play the easy game and get the associated rewards. Simple, right? And if you want, come along. I definitely do not try to hoard the content for myself. > > > > > > exactly so, il play easy mode when i fancy some relaxed play, and earn their rewards overtime, and will play the harder difficult if I want to do that content. What I do not do is argue against content for others when there is clearly a demand and a precedent in the genre at large. You see its not about keeping existing raids that you want for yourselves, it's people like yourself arguing against content for others, which is clearly based on self interest and not what is best for the game - because for a raider, loot is everything and prestige is everything. > > > > "Demand" is kind of a stretch. I see a demand from a handful of people here, who like to think they're somehow representative for a larger number of players. This may, or may not be true. But one thing is for sure - it is not proven. Based on circumstantial evidence I'm inclined to believe you're strongly exaggerating this demand. Of course, I may be wrong about that. > > > > Furthermore, if we assume you were right and sufficient demand exists, then I have no say in this anyway. It's ANet's decision, they decide and make you easy mode to play relaxed. And earn the associated rewards. Which *will* be different. See above mentions of the word "fair". > > actually it is proven, look at every other AAA mmorpg, or GW1 normal raiding etc etc etc. GW1 is dead and every other AAA MMO isn't developed by ANet. So no, it is actually not proven. But, again, even if it were, it wouldn't end up like you hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said _need_ and since it is just frivolous entertainment of course it's purely a matter of want and choice, it's not my job after all it's a past time to escape from my job, thank you for stating the obvious, now, back to the actual question. "Why should I have to work at playing a game?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point exactly - you shouldn't. Nothing forces you do, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. If it feels that way, then just don't. Simple. I fail to see the point of complaining a specific activity doesn't suit your tastes in a "frivolous entertainment". If I don't like a particular genre of movies, I don't go to a cinema to watch one of these. If I don't like a particular dessert, I don't order it. Simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your further attempts to take the position of a martyr are not particularly convincing. Primarily because it *IS* unfair to give the same rewards for substantially less effort. It's not that you're "filthy casuals". It's that you want to remain one, but be rewarded like you weren't. It's not fair toward all those who had to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure. You want to skip all that? Sure, it's a valid choice. But you don't get the same results. In much a same way you don't get "A"-s on your exams without studying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It's not fair toward all those who **had** to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. No.. No.. You have already established that _no one had to do anything_ , as such they _chose_ to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK. It's not fair toward those who received the same thing for choosing to do something hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S. You can twist semantics all you like. It's still not fair, and it's quite obvious that it isn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. since they _chose_ to do something hard, they don't _deserve_ anything for it. because it was purely their choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should think choosing to do something hard is the best reason there is to say someone deserved a reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > I play an easy game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > > > > > > I play a difficult game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the point of gaming in general, and why all the other AAA mmorpg got this 10 years ago and progressed their raiding communities beyond a small clique trying to keep content for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So play the easy game and get the associated rewards. Simple, right? And if you want, come along. I definitely do not try to hoard the content for myself. > > > > > > > > exactly so, il play easy mode when i fancy some relaxed play, and earn their rewards overtime, and will play the harder difficult if I want to do that content. What I do not do is argue against content for others when there is clearly a demand and a precedent in the genre at large. You see its not about keeping existing raids that you want for yourselves, it's people like yourself arguing against content for others, which is clearly based on self interest and not what is best for the game - because for a raider, loot is everything and prestige is everything. > > > > > > "Demand" is kind of a stretch. I see a demand from a handful of people here, who like to think they're somehow representative for a larger number of players. This may, or may not be true. But one thing is for sure - it is not proven. Based on circumstantial evidence I'm inclined to believe you're strongly exaggerating this demand. Of course, I may be wrong about that. > > > > > > Furthermore, if we assume you were right and sufficient demand exists, then I have no say in this anyway. It's ANet's decision, they decide and make you easy mode to play relaxed. And earn the associated rewards. Which *will* be different. See above mentions of the word "fair". > > > > actually it is proven, look at every other AAA mmorpg, or GW1 normal raiding etc etc etc. > > GW1 is dead and every other AAA MMO isn't developed by ANet. So no, it is actually not proven. But, again, even if it were, it wouldn't end up like you hope. no actually it is, GW normal raiding was very popular before GW2 came out, and yes it is proven through precedence in every other AAA mmorpg. And it would end up not as i hope but as per popular demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now