How would an easy mode raid work - VG

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > > people always use the term "new players" excuse or "having a job and no time" excuse just to get special privileges so they can skip the hard work and get the same rewards as others to invested time in it. i never seen people complain about wow raids and they're harder. people work hard to be better in raids.

> >

> > The thing is, **if it feels like work, you are doing it wrong.**

> >

> > This is a game. It should *never* feel like "hard work." It should be fun. If you feel bad because other players are having an easier time of it, then you just have the wrong mindset to be talking about games in general. It is not a "special privilege" for people to have access to the things they want from an entertainment product. You have never in your life "earned" anything in GW2 that they haven't, and anything you have been gifted by the game for your participation, you should be grateful for, but not avaricious.

>

> Does not feel like work to me. Seems like the issue is on your end, not in the game.

 

The problem with the game is that it *only* presents an option that feels like work if I want to experience the raid content or unlock the attached rewards. If it was only one option, and there were *other* options available to pursue those goals, then it would be my fault for choosing the wrong path, but with only one path available, I have no good options to choose.

 

This is why we need an easy mode.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > Was exciting the first time. Novelty of it wore off quickly. Additionally, hearding cats is easier than coordinating pve players to cc, do mechanics, or wp when dead

> >

> > Isn't it what would happen in an instance as well? If I understand you correctly, you seek to provide a version for the very same players. The CC, the mechanics, the coordination, these will all be issues just the same.

>

> I seek a way for people to train for them outside of training raids as I find those to be too few, especiallly if you can't play during prime time, or frequent the forums/reddit. Easy mode would be 1 way to do it, another way would be to include boss mechanics to the kitty golem. You can also change the pre event to be better reflective of the fight ( as stated above). There was also a discussion of a wing 0 wasn't there? I think that might be an interesting way.

>

> Edit

> Besides, if the point of an easy mode to prepare for normal mode anyway, then if a person has gotten so used to easy mode that they find it boring, they would, in theory, be ready for normal would they not?

 

Actually they wouldn't. The thing with the challenging content is, you need to play it in order to prepare for it. There are no shortcuts. Playing an easy mode can only get you so far. You'll see the basic functions of the mechanics, but if they are relaxed enough to be "easy", you'll have to train them again once you move to the "normal" mode. See the fractal CMs for reference. You could play the normal version of these for ages, you'd still get destroyed the first times you set foot in the CMs. The timings are different, the consequences are different, and generally speaking - what works in the "easy" mode often doesn't in the challenge one. And the problem is, you **only** understand that once you play the challenge one. Hence, the assumption the easy mode would "train" people is flawed.

 

Better training arenas could be helpful though. Not just for the boss mechanics, somewhere it was mentioned it could also be used for tanking and healing trainings. But if they were to add boss mechanics to the training arena, the mechanics shouldn't be relaxed IMO.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Better training arenas could be helpful though. Not just for the boss mechanics, somewhere it was mentioned it could also be used for tanking and healing trainings. But if they were to add boss mechanics to the training arena, the mechanics shouldn't be relaxed IMO.

 

Well since it's a training arena it doesn't need relaxed consequences for failure because,

a) you don't get anything if you succeed anyway,

b) you can restart it instantly

 

What could happen though is giving only a few mechanics to practice, because otherwise you'd need to get 9 other people just to train. Like practicing VG tanking on the golem alone, no greens, blues or reds, just you, Vale Guardian and shinny platforms.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>See the fractal CMs for reference. You could play the normal version of these for ages, you'd still get destroyed the first times you set foot in the CMs. The timings are different, the consequences are different, and generally speaking - what works in the "easy" mode often doesn't in the challenge one.

 

But that's due to their design. As you say, the mechanics ARE different for them, and you need to learn those new mechanics. If the mechanics were identical, and the only difference is that they had higher consequences, then by mastering the mechanics in easy mode you would have mastered them in hard mode too.

 

Think of it like this, you have a long-jump course, a bunch of platforms X distance across and you have to jump from one to the next, and there's a 10ft fall to a water-pit each time you miss a jump. Training on one where the jumps are 4ft across would not make you ready to handle one where the jumps are 6ft across. On the other hand, training on one where the jumps are 6ft, but the "pits" are just Olympic style sandpits instead of deep water pits would allow you to train with much less consequence for failure. Maybe you fall short a bunch of times, but you can just walk back to the platform and try again. But once you mastered the technique, once you could clear the 6ft jump, then it wouldn't matter whether the bottom was sand or water, you could still clear that jump.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> But that's due to their design. As you say, the mechanics ARE different for them, and you need to learn those new mechanics. If the mechanics were identical, and the only difference is that they had higher consequences, then by mastering the mechanics in easy mode you would have mastered them in hard mode too.

>

 

There is no difference in mechanics between T2 and T4 Fractals and T2 are absolutely worthless for training purposes.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > But that's due to their design. As you say, the mechanics ARE different for them, and you need to learn those new mechanics. If the mechanics were identical, and the only difference is that they had higher consequences, then by mastering the mechanics in easy mode you would have mastered them in hard mode too.

> >

>

> There is no difference in mechanics between T2 and T4 Fractals and T2 are absolutely worthless for training purposes.

 

Why? What can you not do in T2 that you'd need to know how to do in T4?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Why? What can you not do in T2 that you'd need to know how to do in T4?

 

Hit points and damage of mobs mostly. Since they are much higher in T4 it requires much different play style, team composition and of course player skill/ability.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Better training arenas could be helpful though. Not just for the boss mechanics, somewhere it was mentioned it could also be used for tanking and healing trainings. But if they were to add boss mechanics to the training arena, the mechanics shouldn't be relaxed IMO.

>

> Well since it's a training arena it doesn't need relaxed consequences for failure because,

> a) you don't get anything if you succeed anyway,

> b) you can restart it instantly

>

> What could happen though is giving only a few mechanics to practice, because otherwise you'd need to get 9 other people just to train. Like practicing VG tanking on the golem alone, no greens, blues or reds, just you, Vale Guardian and shinny platforms.

 

Yeah, of course. One mechanic at a time, I imagine.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >See the fractal CMs for reference. You could play the normal version of these for ages, you'd still get destroyed the first times you set foot in the CMs. The timings are different, the consequences are different, and generally speaking - what works in the "easy" mode often doesn't in the challenge one.

>

> But that's due to their design. As you say, the mechanics ARE different for them, and you need to learn those new mechanics. If the mechanics were identical, and the only difference is that they had higher consequences, then by mastering the mechanics in easy mode you would have mastered them in hard mode too.

 

Nope. Because if you get away with the consequences, there's no incentive to bother with the mechanic. To the contrary - it is *strictly better* to ignore it. It is the *correct* gameplay in these conditions. So that's what you'd be learning - to ignore a mechanic rather than execute it. This is even visible in the actual raids. No-updraft Gorse, overheal through VG greens, /gg when stomped on 10% by Samarog, going alone at last Saul phase on Deimos, etc. All these strategies exist because they are both safer and faster way to deal with the encounter. So that's what players learn to do. You want *all* the mechanics to allow that, and yet expect players to somehow pick up how to execute them? It's like taking someone to the beach and expecting them to become skilled at ski slaloms.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Why? What can you not do in T2 that you'd need to know how to do in T4?

>

> Hit points and damage of mobs mostly. Since they are much higher in T4 it requires much different play style, team composition and of course player skill/ability.

 

That's "requirements" though. I get that what works in T2 might not work in T4, but is the opposite true? Could a T4 team not go down to T2 and perform just as well? If a team prepared for T4, could they not perform at T2 using those same tactics and clear it? I get that it might be more efficient to skip some options that T4 requires, but if one was *trying* to train, is there any way that they would need to play T4 that they would be *unable* to perform in T2?

 

As an example, if the actual timings of enemy attacks were different, then the same player timings would no longer work.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>Nope. Because if you get away with the consequences, there's no incentive to bother with the mechanic.

 

Again, that's a very one-aside way to look at it. "you can't do that because I wouldn't." Just because you wouldn't doesn't mean that others couldn't. Sure, a team that just wants to clear the easier version efficiently can cut corners, if there's a sandpit instead of a deep pit then they can just take multiple hops to get across rather than training to make the big leap they'd need to cross the more serious version, but if they DO intend to cross the more serious version, then they can **still** use the sand pit to practice the big leaps needed.

 

>You want all the mechanics to allow that, and yet expect players to somehow pick up how to execute them? It's like taking someone to the beach and expecting them to become skilled at ski slaloms.

 

Again, players will learn the patterns that they want to learn, and join groups appropriately. Whatever the most efficient path may be, that will be learned and passed around, sure. But players who know that these techniques will not work in hard mode, but **want** to eventually do hard mode, will use easy mode to train, will join groups that want to train. There will be LFGs for "Easy, efficiency," that will expect all players to cut what corners are available, and will clear it in minimum times. There will *also* be "Easy, Training," which will be practicing *as if the mechanics penalties from hard were active,* because that's their eventual goal, and they would take longer to clear it than the first group, but their skills would better transition to the hard mode.

 

Again, you've made it quite clear that you would never do this, that you would prefer to leap into the water pit as often as it takes you to reach the other side, and that's fine, you do what works for you. But just because that works for you does not mean it works for everyone, and doesn't mean that no one could benefit from having other options available.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > Why? What can you not do in T2 that you'd need to know how to do in T4?

> >

> > Hit points and damage of mobs mostly. Since they are much higher in T4 it requires much different play style, team composition and of course player skill/ability.

>

> That's "requirements" though. I get that what works in T2 might not work in T4, but is the opposite true? Could a T4 team not go down to T2 and perform just as well? If a team prepared for T4, could they not perform at T2 using those same tactics and clear it? I get that it might be more efficient to skip some options that T4 requires, but if one was *trying* to train, is there any way that they would need to play T4 that they would be *unable* to perform in T2?

>

> As an example, if the actual timings of enemy attacks were different, then the same player timings would no longer work.

>

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >Nope. Because if you get away with the consequences, there's no incentive to bother with the mechanic.

>

> Again, that's a very one-aside way to look at it. "you can't do that because I wouldn't." Just because you wouldn't doesn't mean that others couldn't. Sure, a team that just wants to clear the easier version efficiently can cut corners, if there's a sandpit instead of a deep pit then they can just take multiple hops to get across rather than training to make the big leap they'd need to cross the more serious version, but if they DO intend to cross the more serious version, then they can **still** use the sand pit to practice the big leaps needed.

>

> >You want all the mechanics to allow that, and yet expect players to somehow pick up how to execute them? It's like taking someone to the beach and expecting them to become skilled at ski slaloms.

>

> Again, players will learn the patterns that they want to learn, and join groups appropriately. Whatever the most efficient path may be, that will be learned and passed around, sure. But players who know that these techniques will not work in hard mode, but **want** to eventually do hard mode, will use easy mode to train, will join groups that want to train. There will be LFGs for "Easy, efficiency," that will expect all players to cut what corners are available, and will clear it in minimum times. There will *also* be "Easy, Training," which will be practicing *as if the mechanics penalties from hard were active,* because that's their eventual goal, and they would take longer to clear it than the first group, but their skills would better transition to the hard mode.

>

> Again, you've made it quite clear that you would never do this, that you would prefer to leap into the water pit as often as it takes you to reach the other side, and that's fine, you do what works for you. But just because that works for you does not mean it works for everyone, and doesn't mean that no one could benefit from having other options available.

 

Mate, don't take this the wrong way, but you should at least read *some* game theory before arguing this. No, it's not a matter of choices. There are behavioural patterns. Sure, there will always be an odd ball or two, but these are inconsequential. It's what we do, boiled to essentials. You're disregarding basic human nature because it doesn't fit your pretty vision of a better world. The same mistake every utopian does.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > Why? What can you not do in T2 that you'd need to know how to do in T4?

> > >

> > > Hit points and damage of mobs mostly. Since they are much higher in T4 it requires much different play style, team composition and of course player skill/ability.

> >

> > That's "requirements" though. I get that what works in T2 might not work in T4, but is the opposite true? Could a T4 team not go down to T2 and perform just as well? If a team prepared for T4, could they not perform at T2 using those same tactics and clear it? I get that it might be more efficient to skip some options that T4 requires, but if one was *trying* to train, is there any way that they would need to play T4 that they would be *unable* to perform in T2?

> >

> > As an example, if the actual timings of enemy attacks were different, then the same player timings would no longer work.

> >

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > >Nope. Because if you get away with the consequences, there's no incentive to bother with the mechanic.

> >

> > Again, that's a very one-aside way to look at it. "you can't do that because I wouldn't." Just because you wouldn't doesn't mean that others couldn't. Sure, a team that just wants to clear the easier version efficiently can cut corners, if there's a sandpit instead of a deep pit then they can just take multiple hops to get across rather than training to make the big leap they'd need to cross the more serious version, but if they DO intend to cross the more serious version, then they can **still** use the sand pit to practice the big leaps needed.

> >

> > >You want all the mechanics to allow that, and yet expect players to somehow pick up how to execute them? It's like taking someone to the beach and expecting them to become skilled at ski slaloms.

> >

> > Again, players will learn the patterns that they want to learn, and join groups appropriately. Whatever the most efficient path may be, that will be learned and passed around, sure. But players who know that these techniques will not work in hard mode, but **want** to eventually do hard mode, will use easy mode to train, will join groups that want to train. There will be LFGs for "Easy, efficiency," that will expect all players to cut what corners are available, and will clear it in minimum times. There will *also* be "Easy, Training," which will be practicing *as if the mechanics penalties from hard were active,* because that's their eventual goal, and they would take longer to clear it than the first group, but their skills would better transition to the hard mode.

> >

> > Again, you've made it quite clear that you would never do this, that you would prefer to leap into the water pit as often as it takes you to reach the other side, and that's fine, you do what works for you. But just because that works for you does not mean it works for everyone, and doesn't mean that no one could benefit from having other options available.

>

> Mate, don't take this the wrong way, but you should at least read *some* game theory before arguing this. No, it's not a matter of choices. There are behavioural patterns. Sure, there will always be an odd ball or two, but these are inconsequential. It's what we do, boiled to essentials. You're disregarding basic human nature because it doesn't fit your pretty vision of a better world. The same mistake every utopian does.

 

So let's say I'm wrong, and *nobody* is willing to train for *anything* in life unless it's life or death, succeed or die.

 

Let's say that you're right, and the military just kicks new recruits onto the battlefield without any training, and eventually, if they survive, they will become great soldiers.

 

Let's say that medical schools just throw a new student at a flatlining patient and let them keep trying until they manage to save one.

 

Let's say that flight schools don't bother with simulators, and just put pilot trainees at the stick of 747s until they manage to land one.

 

Fine.

 

So nobody would use the easy mode raid as a tool to improve their play to the level that they could complete the hard mode, because for some reason *only* playing hard mode can work.

 

Even in that world, they'd still have easy mode to play, and that would be plenty of fun whether or not hard mode even exists.

[Feanor.2358]

Like I said, there will be the oddballs. And like I said, they're inconsequential. Because they aren't statistically significant number. Same reason why utopias fail. You will always find some people willing to "play" the suboptimal way. But you can never build a system on the premise that everyone will. It will collapse for certain.

 

By the way, using exaggerated examples doesn't help your argumentation.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Like I said, there will be the oddballs. And like I said, they're inconsequential. Because they aren't statistically significant number.

 

I know that, but ANet, out of the kindness of their hearts, made raids for them anyway.

 

Now all I'm asking is that they open up those raids to be playable by everyone *else.*

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Like I said, there will be the oddballs. And like I said, they're inconsequential. Because they aren't statistically significant number.

>

> I know that, but ANet, out of the kindness of their hearts, made raids for them anyway.

>

> Now all I'm asking is that they open up those raids to be playable by everyone *else.*

 

As far as I know, raids are open to anyone. You press the little icon on the right side of your screen to create a squad, you tick "Raid Mode", and you enter. *Eaxctly* what anyone playing raids does. Which of the listed steps you're having trouble with?

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > Was exciting the first time. Novelty of it wore off quickly. Additionally, hearding cats is easier than coordinating pve players to cc, do mechanics, or wp when dead

> > >

> > > Isn't it what would happen in an instance as well? If I understand you correctly, you seek to provide a version for the very same players. The CC, the mechanics, the coordination, these will all be issues just the same.

> >

> > I seek a way for people to train for them outside of training raids as I find those to be too few, especiallly if you can't play during prime time, or frequent the forums/reddit. Easy mode would be 1 way to do it, another way would be to include boss mechanics to the kitty golem. You can also change the pre event to be better reflective of the fight ( as stated above). There was also a discussion of a wing 0 wasn't there? I think that might be an interesting way.

> >

> > Edit

> > Besides, if the point of an easy mode to prepare for normal mode anyway, then if a person has gotten so used to easy mode that they find it boring, they would, in theory, be ready for normal would they not?

>

> Actually they wouldn't. The thing with the challenging content is, you need to play it in order to prepare for it. There are no shortcuts. Playing an easy mode can only get you so far. You'll see the basic functions of the mechanics, but if they are relaxed enough to be "easy", you'll have to train them again once you move to the "normal" mode. See the fractal CMs for reference. You could play the normal version of these for ages, you'd still get destroyed the first times you set foot in the CMs. The timings are different, the consequences are different, and generally speaking - what works in the "easy" mode often doesn't in the challenge one. And the problem is, you **only** understand that once you play the challenge one. Hence, the assumption the easy mode would "train" people is flawed.

 

True, but aren't fractal cms harder than vg? If I were to compare vg to a fractal, I'd say normal mode shattered observatory, would you agree?

 

> Better training arenas could be helpful though. Not just for the boss mechanics, somewhere it was mentioned it could also be used for tanking and healing trainings. But if they were to add boss mechanics to the training arena, the mechanics shouldn't be relaxed IMO.

 

Agreed

 

[Sephylon.4938]

What are your thoughts though on reworking the pre event of vg?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> What are your thoughts though on reworking the pre event of vg?

 

Do you think groups of first-timers have a hard time beating the pre-event?

[Sephylon.4938]

No, infact the opposite: that they beat it too quickly that it fails to teach anything.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> No, infact the opposite: that they beat it too quickly that it fails to teach anything.

 

I'm not sure how you'd fix killing them fast because if you add restrictions, like having to wait for 10 players to be ready before engaging the adds, it would seriously hurt other legit groups that simply want to kill them fast while waiting for the rest of the group to come.

 

If someone is with a good group that is willing to teach Vale Guardian anyway then beating the pre-event mobs quickly won't make a real difference, the trainers will explain the entire fight. If a group of first timers goes to Raid, without an experienced person to teach them, then it's up to them to not engage the adds before everyone is there, so they practice and learn the mechanics from the adds, before engaging Vale Guardian.

[Sephylon.4938]

I posted an idea on how to do that on page 2 or 3. There's also a link to it up on this page some where. I'm on my dumbphone atm so I can't repost it :/

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> I posted an idea on how to do that on page 2 or 3. There's also a link to it up on this page some where. I'm on my dumbphone atm so I can't repost it :/

 

Found this:

>Another thought: what if we buffed the pre event, but added a scaing fa tor to it?

 

and this:

> This maaay be a bit far off, but what if, and bear me out, instead of reworking vg, we rework the pre event that leads to it? Currently I find that the preevent, which is supposed to teach the mechanic, ends far too soon. Additionally, it is usually done while waiting for the lfg to fill even in training runs (I've done this myself). What if instead of 3 guardians lined up, we have to walk to the arena and see the pylons powering the barrier. As we try to disable the pylon, unstable energy is released and attacks us in the form of the guardian with a colour matching the pylon. If the group only deactivates 1 pylon, the 1/3 lava floor will be active. 2/3 if 2 were deactivated, and add the bullet hell if all 3 were deactivated at once. We could also relocate the respawn point to be under glenna, or right before the arena. Move the ley rift there or 1 of the pact members and give it an option to reset the pylons as long as vg hasn't heen summoned or killed. Thoughts on this?

 

Buffing the pre-event so they don't die as fast is a bad idea that will punish other players for no reason and second not actually help because there will still be enough time to kill them before the team is full.

The second rework doesn't look like it stops the killing of the pre-events, only removes them completely and adds another way to scale the event.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>As far as I know, raids are open to anyone.

 

This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone.

>

> This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps.

>

>

 

And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone.

> >

> > This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps.

> >

> >

>

> And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped.

 

The problem is, the things that I see as problems, you see as virtues. I've told you which steps I'm having difficulty with and what it would take to resolve them, and so far you answer is "no, you can't have any of that, but have you tried just getting out of that chair and walking? I do it every day."

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone.

> > >

> > > This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped.

>

> The problem is, the things that I see as problems, you see as virtues. I've told you which steps I'm having difficulty with and what it would take to resolve them, and so far you answer is "no, you can't have any of that, but have you tried just getting out of that chair and walking? I do it every day."

 

So your answer is "if I don't want to get out of the chair, nobody should ever need to"? Come on.