Anet : The Meteor Shower Nerf is a shame (60% DPS Nerf in PvE vs single target)

[LazySummer.2568]

> @"Cregath.7628" said:

> I've seen a lot of people argue that Weaver is the "squishiest" DPS. If we just look at statistics then yeah, it sure is squishy as hell. But how do raids work again? You do the mechanic correctly and you win. You miss a single step and you are dead. This is the same for every class though. One-shot is one-shot regardless if you have 11k or 21k HP.

 

This is just not true. There are very few attacks that are actually guaranteed one shots no matter your hp/toughness, and they are the ones with huge telegraphs and often reserved for only when you fail the mechanics (eg. anamoly explosion in fractal 100, greens at VG, sabetha's flamewall, dropping dhuum bomb in the middle of the group).

 

If you had your combat logs opened all the time, you'll see how a lot of the attacks do big damage, but usually not enough to one shot. An example will be Samarog's basic attacks -- you can get hit by the shockwave/swipe once yet you don't die (even as 11k hp classes) if you had full hp. What makes a big difference is when these attacks, which generally do 6k~8k, randomly crits (or in fractals often randomly hit you multiple times for some reason), resulting in 11k~12k damage. That crtic is enough to down low hp classes (ele/thief/guard) but not other classes. Also, pulsing damages (eg. Matthias' condis/corruption, Dhuum 10% hp pulse) will down low hp classes a lot faster than high hp ones. There are also situations where low hp classes will go down if, say they were at 80% hp, whereas high hp classes wouldn't (eg. dhuum's bomb dropped a bit too close to group / sabetha's time bomb)

 

Out of the 3 low hp classes, staff eles ARE the squishest because their attacks are channeling and slow compared to thieves/guardians and they also have less defensive skills (thieves have dodges while guardians have blocks). If you were to compare a sword ele to thief/guards though, then maybe they will be comparable in terms of squishness.

 

There's a reason why warriors and necros are so much easier to play in PvE, and a big part of that reason is exactly because they have a higher base health pool.

 

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > Doers it not say something that it dealt THAT much damage to begin with? A press and forget skill shouldnt be doing anywhere near that kind of damage. Ever. Also by the sounds of it, the effect ONLY works for PvE by how it mentions PvE but not WvW?

>

> Exactly my thinking. If anything this shows how bad the design of the whole class was and in large parts still is that a skill clearly meant to mass-bombard (but without the ability to target) an area provided such an important part of vs-large-target single target DPS.

>

> I mean, if that doesn't show you how glacial GW2's redesigns/rebalancings are, then I don't know what else would. The game is lagging nearly 5 years behind. Yeah they're picking up the pace now, but it's going to be difficult to make up 5 years of mostly-skipped rebalancing/reimplementation efforts other games had.

 

Too be fair, quite of lot of the game has been riddled with bad game design since launch and even before then. The combat system has become very stale and rather boring. When it first came out, it was fresh, new and fun. Now not so much, the bad, bad balance combined with the very little in attempts of trying to freshen things up has made the combat system rather dull, it was one of 2 things (the other being WvW) that had kept me playing but now i barely have the urge to play, it just gets too boring when playing for even 5-10 minutes now :/

 

 

[Cregath.7628]

> @"LazySummer.2568" said:

> > @"Cregath.7628" said:

> > I've seen a lot of people argue that Weaver is the "squishiest" DPS. If we just look at statistics then yeah, it sure is squishy as hell. But how do raids work again? You do the mechanic correctly and you win. You miss a single step and you are dead. This is the same for every class though. One-shot is one-shot regardless if you have 11k or 21k HP.

>

> This is just not true. There are very few attacks that are actually guaranteed one shots no matter your hp/toughness, and they are the ones with huge telegraphs and often reserved for only when you fail the mechanics (eg. anamoly explosion in fractal 100, greens at VG, sabetha's flamewall, dropping dhuum bomb in the middle of the group).

>

> If you had your combat logs opened all the time, you'll see how a lot of the attacks do big damage, but usually not enough to one shot. An example will be Samarog's basic attacks -- you can get hit by the shockwave/swipe once yet you don't die (even as 11k hp classes) if you had full hp. What makes a big difference is when these attacks, which generally do 6k~8k, randomly crits (or in fractals often randomly hit you multiple times for some reason), resulting in 11k~12k damage. That crtic is enough to down low hp classes (ele/thief/guard) but not other classes. Also, pulsing damages (eg. Matthias' condis/corruption, Dhuum 10% hp pulse) will down low hp classes a lot faster than high hp ones. There are also situations where low hp classes will go down if, say they were at 80% hp, whereas high hp classes wouldn't (eg. dhuum's bomb dropped a bit too close to group / sabetha's time bomb)

>

> Out of the 3 low hp classes, staff eles ARE the squishest because their attacks are channeling and slow compared to thieves/guardians and they also have less defensive skills (thieves have dodges while guardians have blocks). If you were to compare a sword ele to thief/guards though, then maybe they will be comparable in terms of squishness.

>

> There's a reason why warriors and necros are so much easier to play in PvE, and a big part of that reason is exactly because they have a higher base health pool.

>

 

Tbf, I've never seen any of the bosses crit. >.<

Maybe it's just me though.

 

Also that Chronos that people love so much is also supplying you with them juicy Aegis. That means that even if these boss attacks by any chance crit, then there is an Aegis to block it in a half-proper group. If there isn't then you probably failed a mechanic twice in short succession. And that's that.

 

But let's go a bit further, eh? So let's say that Staff Weaver's squishiness should justify it's lead in large, single-target DPS. Then you also listed Thief and Guard as being squishy, but also having defenses against said some things. I wouldn't really count Thieves having an extra dodge or Guardians being able to use block if they go out of their way, when Eles can go out of their way too to block/avoid those attacks. But sorry, I forgot it's a DPS loss, eh? :(

Well, it's a DPS loss for them too.

 

It's a matter of choice, rather than just being squishy by default. You could swap in a bit more survival, but no, instead you want more damage. It's a fine choice, there is no problem with it. The issue is when you use "squishyness" as an excuse when the damage is way too high compared to others who make the same choices. A Weaver who makes these choices still tops DPS all around. So yeah, the damage was way too high. It's better now. End of story.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

More of a nerf in PvE than anything. Nobody in a zerg is going to get hit more than 3x by a meteor, so it's actually a buff in WvW. In PvE however, used against single large targets it's a fairly substantial nerf.

 

Not sure why they implemented this.. why bother eradicating the Ele's damage in PvE.. there no real point. I tested it against one of the story instance bosses and meteor shower seemed more of a liability than a help. Nearly died casting it and the damage was negligible.

[LazySummer.2568]

> @"Cregath.7628" said:

> > @"LazySummer.2568" said:

> > > @"Cregath.7628" said:

> > > I've seen a lot of people argue that Weaver is the "squishiest" DPS. If we just look at statistics then yeah, it sure is squishy as hell. But how do raids work again? You do the mechanic correctly and you win. You miss a single step and you are dead. This is the same for every class though. One-shot is one-shot regardless if you have 11k or 21k HP.

> >

> > This is just not true. There are very few attacks that are actually guaranteed one shots no matter your hp/toughness, and they are the ones with huge telegraphs and often reserved for only when you fail the mechanics (eg. anamoly explosion in fractal 100, greens at VG, sabetha's flamewall, dropping dhuum bomb in the middle of the group).

> >

> > If you had your combat logs opened all the time, you'll see how a lot of the attacks do big damage, but usually not enough to one shot. An example will be Samarog's basic attacks -- you can get hit by the shockwave/swipe once yet you don't die (even as 11k hp classes) if you had full hp. What makes a big difference is when these attacks, which generally do 6k~8k, randomly crits (or in fractals often randomly hit you multiple times for some reason), resulting in 11k~12k damage. That crtic is enough to down low hp classes (ele/thief/guard) but not other classes. Also, pulsing damages (eg. Matthias' condis/corruption, Dhuum 10% hp pulse) will down low hp classes a lot faster than high hp ones. There are also situations where low hp classes will go down if, say they were at 80% hp, whereas high hp classes wouldn't (eg. dhuum's bomb dropped a bit too close to group / sabetha's time bomb)

> >

> > Out of the 3 low hp classes, staff eles ARE the squishest because their attacks are channeling and slow compared to thieves/guardians and they also have less defensive skills (thieves have dodges while guardians have blocks). If you were to compare a sword ele to thief/guards though, then maybe they will be comparable in terms of squishness.

> >

> > There's a reason why warriors and necros are so much easier to play in PvE, and a big part of that reason is exactly because they have a higher base health pool.

> >

>

> Tbf, I've never seen any of the bosses crit. >.<

> Maybe it's just me though.

>

> Also that Chronos that people love so much is also supplying you with them juicy Aegis. That means that even if these boss attacks by any chance crit, then there is an Aegis to block it in a half-proper group. If there isn't then you probably failed a mechanic twice in short succession. And that's that.

>

> But let's go a bit further, eh? So let's say that Staff Weaver's squishiness should justify it's lead in large, single-target DPS. Then you also listed Thief and Guard as being squishy, but also having defenses against said some things. I wouldn't really count Thieves having an extra dodge or Guardians being able to use block if they go out of their way, when Eles can go out of their way too to block/avoid those attacks. But sorry, I forgot it's a DPS loss, eh? :(

> Well, it's a DPS loss for them too.

>

> It's a matter of choice, rather than just being squishy by default. You could swap in a bit more survival, but no, instead you want more damage. It's a fine choice, there is no problem with it. The issue is when you use "squishyness" as an excuse when the damage is way too high compared to others who make the same choices. A Weaver who makes these choices still tops DPS all around. So yeah, the damage was way too high. It's better now. End of story.

 

Bosses critc all the time. For example, VG's attack during cc phase critcs and is why sometimes you'll randomly go down to it by getting hit once whereas often times you dont, same with VG's seeker being able to critc, adds/falling rocks in KC critcs...etc.

 

Chrono giving low hp classes aegis is irrelevant to this discussion as as they can give aegis to high hp classes too. Low hp class mess up twice after they've popped their aegis will go down where as high hp classes wouldnt and get a 3rd chance.

 

The meta builds for Thieves and Guards take as many dps skills & traits as possible just like eles. It's not like they sacrificed anything for their defense when one has dodges built into their attacks and another has passive aegis proc on f3 and, if they are dh, free sos buttons on both F2 and F3. And neither of those classes have skills where they have to standstill and channel. That's why I said if you compare sword weavers to thieves and guards then it's more comparable, and we all know sword weavers arent miles ahead in dps compared to other dps classes

[Llethander.3972]

The wording in the patch notes is terrible. It should read as follows:

 

Meteor Shower: The internal cooldown of this skill has been removed when used against PvE targets, and its initial damage has been increased by 23%. Damage will now decline by 10% for each subsequent hit **ON THAT TARGET**, capping at a minimum value equal to 10% of the initial impact's damage.

 

Each target has its own individual hit counter separate from the other so you can hit one target 3 times for [Full / -10% / -20%] progression and then hit another DIFFERENT target with the same meteor shower 4 times for [Full / -10% / -20% / -30%] progression separate from the previous target.

 

This also means that if two meteors fall back to back very quickly on the same target, as they sometimes do, instead of only one dealing damage and the other doing nothing due to the internal cooldown they both deal damage instead at [Full] and then [-10%] damage.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > @"Cregath.7628" said:

> > > > "I only have damage" -> "I know I have CC, but that's DPS loss"

> > > > Love you folks! =)

> > >

> > > Death use to be and may still be part of the ele dmg rotation in pve. Ele is a pure dmg class in pve and well in wvw. That just what happens when your a class who lacks a lot of effects in the game the all other classes have.

> >

> > Ele still provides water fields and CC in WvW, they’re not purely for damage just you need to be very smart about it with weaver. Core ele has mostly damage (less max than weaver) but also provides some support and tempest is full support or should be if you’re playing it to it’s strengths.

> >

> > PvE definitely full dps and everything Feanor said about not worth switching to CC is true.

>

> All classes give out cc and give out heals in one way or another. Things like water fields are worthless other then self blasting these days please do not think them part of balancing any more.

>

> All they got to do to fix MS is to drop the number of rocks speed up the fall up the aoe size and numbers of targets. Say 15 rocks 240 size aoe 5 targets.

 

Water fields are only worthless to worthless players who can’t or won’t combo them. 1 water field can replace having to use heals earlier and when used on initiation you can sistain while doing your damage.

 

As for meteor they need to standardise it, see GW1 meteor shower.

[DragonSlayer.1087]

What kool aid are these devs drinking? >.>

[Jski.6180]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > > @"Cregath.7628" said:

> > > > > "I only have damage" -> "I know I have CC, but that's DPS loss"

> > > > > Love you folks! =)

> > > >

> > > > Death use to be and may still be part of the ele dmg rotation in pve. Ele is a pure dmg class in pve and well in wvw. That just what happens when your a class who lacks a lot of effects in the game the all other classes have.

> > >

> > > Ele still provides water fields and CC in WvW, they’re not purely for damage just you need to be very smart about it with weaver. Core ele has mostly damage (less max than weaver) but also provides some support and tempest is full support or should be if you’re playing it to it’s strengths.

> > >

> > > PvE definitely full dps and everything Feanor said about not worth switching to CC is true.

> >

> > All classes give out cc and give out heals in one way or another. Things like water fields are worthless other then self blasting these days please do not think them part of balancing any more.

> >

> > All they got to do to fix MS is to drop the number of rocks speed up the fall up the aoe size and numbers of targets. Say 15 rocks 240 size aoe 5 targets.

>

> Water fields are only worthless to worthless players who can’t or won’t combo them. 1 water field can replace having to use heals earlier and when used on initiation you can sistain while doing your damage.

>

> As for meteor they need to standardise it, see GW1 meteor shower.

 

So self blast only that just the reality of things blasting combo fields are nothing compared to support skills now.

 

They need to keep ideal longer then 3 months what happen to that skill split as well as way must the skill be so complicated.

[plushiesoda.8150]

Deleted in protest of anet leaving support ticket #7495730 without answer since October 10th 2019. It's sad how if this were a money-related issue you'd have answered within a couple of hours. At this point I'm not even mad, but disappointed by the mediocrity displayed by your community managers.

[Castigator.3470]

> @"HyperLooser.2698" said:

> Now all staff eles feel what non-staff eles have felt for ages

 

Remember, you are all Elementalists at the end of the day. So it doesn't really matter what weapon gets trashed, if you have a remaining alternative you're mostly fine. However, if all your three (four) weapons (Dagger, Scepter, Staff, (Sword)) suck, then your entire class has been effectively deleted.

 

Personally, I'm confused why this was nerfed in the first place. Was it nerfed becuase Elementalists were "too good" in PvE raids? My experience was that most eles struggle to reach their full potential.

Also, shouldn't Elementalists get something in return? A buff to a scepter skill, maybe? Or you can increase the damage on other staff skills to make up for it?

 

Then again it was a channel to get the most out of the spell, but now you have to cancel it? Whose "brilliant" idea was that? In that case you can just make it instant cast and save your players from wasting precious time being rooted channeling a spell for no significant increase in damage.

 

Or how about this: Are individual meteors too complex to simulate? Does the inherent projectile randomness cause a too unpredictable interaction with stuff like hitbox sizes? Is the latest iteration with its damage cap track per target bloating the poor combat engine, causing rumours of refactoring among the code team?

 

If you answered yes to the above questions, then the simple rework is for you:

Instead of random projectiles, a number of targets closest to the center gets hit by a pulsing AoE, the metors being eyecandy. This way damage is equal between large and tiny hitboxes. This easier setup allows you to actually balance the numbers without having nightmares about unpredictable outcomes, since RNG has been mostly eliminated.

With the ability to balance the damage per tick, the channel simply increases the duration of the AoE, causing more damage overall.

 

That was easy! Now we can balance our Elementalist friend's other weapons without risking to trash an entire class in the process!

[Coldtart.4785]

> @"plushiesoda.8150" said:

> oh look the class with a burst that easily can go above 50k on single target an can easily stay over 6k of dps above everybody else (over 10k on large hitboxes) complaining about a ssingle target nerf that improves their aoe cleave by a huge margin...

>

> I know ele doesn´t bring the cc, utility, buffs, etc that other classes can bring, but while I support elementalist being the ¨DPS king¨ their current pve numbers are excessive, in a perfect world every DPS class should be within 2k of each other.... not over 10k

>

> meanwhile other classes like thief or necro struggle to even reach 25k on most scenarios....

>

> This is an unexpected nice improvement from anet towards pve ¨fairness¨, maybe with the new druid nerfs we will be seeing more tempest healers? I cannot tell, but I seriously hope they give elementalist some utility to compensate the nerf (*coff* aoe quickness on air *coff*)

 

You don't need any where near max dps to beat raids and speedruns are an unsupported niche playstyle that will always be dominated by a specific, theoretically perfect composition. For the average player in any pve environment the only difference between ele and most other classes is that it's a lot easier to die on ele. Pve doesn't need to be balanced any more than is necessary for players to have fun while playing.

[Theros.1390]

> @"Lasiurus.4067" said:

 

> TOTAL BEFORE PATCH : 240K.

>

> TOTAL AFTER PATCH : About 100K.

 

To me, deal about 100 K by pressing one skill is still fine.

 

Meteor shower had to be balanced. I'm more sad because the Weaver didnt get any compensation anywhere else, to allow him to keep his DPS on the benchmark.

 

[Knox.8962]

> @"Theros.1390" said:

> > @"Lasiurus.4067" said:

>

> > TOTAL BEFORE PATCH : 240K.

> >

> > TOTAL AFTER PATCH : About 100K.

>

> To me, deal about 100 K by pressing one skill is still fine.

>

> Meteor shower had to be balanced. I'm more sad because the Weaver didnt get any compensation anywhere else, to allow him to keep his DPS on the benchmark.

>

 

The small hitbox target DPS number is almost exactly in the same spot as it was before, after adjusting for the Spotter, EA and Frost Spirit Nerfs that impacted everyone.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Knox.8962" said:

> > @"Theros.1390" said:

> > > @"Lasiurus.4067" said:

> >

> > > TOTAL BEFORE PATCH : 240K.

> > >

> > > TOTAL AFTER PATCH : About 100K.

> >

> > To me, deal about 100 K by pressing one skill is still fine.

> >

> > Meteor shower had to be balanced. I'm more sad because the Weaver didnt get any compensation anywhere else, to allow him to keep his DPS on the benchmark.

> >

>

> The small hitbox target DPS number is almost exactly in the same spot as it was before, after adjusting for the Spotter, EA and Frost Spirit Nerfs that impacted everyone.

 

Except the epi-bouncing necros.

[Knox.8962]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Knox.8962" said:

> > > @"Theros.1390" said:

> > > > @"Lasiurus.4067" said:

> > >

> > > > TOTAL BEFORE PATCH : 240K.

> > > >

> > > > TOTAL AFTER PATCH : About 100K.

> > >

> > > To me, deal about 100 K by pressing one skill is still fine.

> > >

> > > Meteor shower had to be balanced. I'm more sad because the Weaver didnt get any compensation anywhere else, to allow him to keep his DPS on the benchmark.

> > >

> >

> > The small hitbox target DPS number is almost exactly in the same spot as it was before, after adjusting for the Spotter, EA and Frost Spirit Nerfs that impacted everyone.

>

> Except the epi-bouncing necros.

 

Oh, I didn't realize they had 0 power damage and no ways to proc sun spirit.

 

My bad.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Knox.8962" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Knox.8962" said:

> > > > @"Theros.1390" said:

> > > > > @"Lasiurus.4067" said:

> > > >

> > > > > TOTAL BEFORE PATCH : 240K.

> > > > >

> > > > > TOTAL AFTER PATCH : About 100K.

> > > >

> > > > To me, deal about 100 K by pressing one skill is still fine.

> > > >

> > > > Meteor shower had to be balanced. I'm more sad because the Weaver didnt get any compensation anywhere else, to allow him to keep his DPS on the benchmark.

> > > >

> > >

> > > The small hitbox target DPS number is almost exactly in the same spot as it was before, after adjusting for the Spotter, EA and Frost Spirit Nerfs that impacted everyone.

> >

> > Except the epi-bouncing necros.

>

> Oh, I didn't realize they had 0 power damage and no ways to proc sun spirit.

>

> My bad.

 

Kek. Sure, totally important.

[Feanor.2358]

Aaaand Snow Crows have the benchmarks - warrior is top dps on both small & large hitbox and Mirage does basically the same damage as a weaver on small for pressing dodge. Totally "balanced".

[InsaneQR.7412]

I like the mechanic actually. I hate the numbers. If they would improve the minimal number it could be something reasonable without blowing everything away and still not hit like a wet noodle.

[InsaneQR.7412]

I like the mechanic actually. I hate the numbers. If they would improve the minimal number it could be something reasonable without blowing everything away and still not hit like a wet noodle.