Is It Just Me Or Do Other Classes Do Thief Better?

[Belishine.7493]

i think all they need to do is a miner rework were they make the thief get the ele damage so we are on pare with ele but instead of us being aoe we become single target high dps. it just feels like they nerf us becouse most peps hate to fight a thief/ rogue. the only thing that makes this thief better is that we can do a true perma stealth. now that the dps is realy low for thief it makes me sad to play one but at the same time it gives you more skill.

[DeceiverX.8361]

The thief isn't meant to be a potent class in fights. ANet has been adamant about that for a long time. Thus the duty of +1 relegation.

 

Which I kind of understand because the dirty tricks that fuels the profession can easily feel like cheese and be annoying to play against. Permanent stealth and burst. Lots of mobility. Near-permanent evades. Insane one-button burst. CC spam... all of these builds have been dominant in the past and really don't require a lot of skill to play and crush the scene at the lower levels.

 

Also I don't think Ben has any say in profession design. None of the PvP devs ever did. That's solely on the professions team which seems to be an entirely separate group of people.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> The thief isn't meant to be a potent class in fights. ANet has been adamant about that for a long time. Thus the duty of +1 relegation.

>

> Which I kind of understand because the dirty tricks that fuels the profession can easily feel like cheese and be annoying to play against. Permanent stealth and burst. Lots of mobility. Near-permanent evades. Insane one-button burst. CC spam... all of these builds have been dominant in the past and really don't require a lot of skill to play and crush the scene at the lower levels.

>

> Also I don't think Ben has any say in profession design. None of the PvP devs ever did. That's solely on the professions team which seems to be an entirely separate group of people.

 

How is thief not meant to be potent in fights? Thief is like the main archetype for a duelist or assassin that kills their target quickly.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > The thief isn't meant to be a potent class in fights. ANet has been adamant about that for a long time. Thus the duty of +1 relegation.

> >

> > Which I kind of understand because the dirty tricks that fuels the profession can easily feel like cheese and be annoying to play against. Permanent stealth and burst. Lots of mobility. Near-permanent evades. Insane one-button burst. CC spam... all of these builds have been dominant in the past and really don't require a lot of skill to play and crush the scene at the lower levels.

> >

> > Also I don't think Ben has any say in profession design. None of the PvP devs ever did. That's solely on the professions team which seems to be an entirely separate group of people.

>

> How is thief not meant to be potent in fights? Thief is like the main archetype for a duelist or assassin that kills their target quickly.

 

ANet profession design leads have come out repeatedly and said it's meant to be the +1 class not favored to win 1v1 in an environment of limited physical size.

The notion of the potent duelist is outdated and blatantly incorrect as far as the vision of the current dev team goes. This is nothing new. For those who've been around since launch, it's been repeated ad nausea and why so many people reroll from thief. It only holds up in WvW because of build granularity and higher innate stats which have good synergy with its high scaling damage potential.

 

The thief can kill targets quickly, and is one of the best assassination classes in the game.

 

The difference is that like an actual assassin, it can't just walk up to its quarry in broad daylight, flourish its knives in some kind of crazy anime style, and kill its target. It needs to not even be considered as part of the fight to be effective. And if played that way and built for it, it is, and it can to this day one-shot-kill pretty much anything.

Which still fits into the +1 identity.

 

Most people just build it with two or more defensive trait lines, build half tank stats, run two or more utilities focused on defense or disengage, and wonder why their "assassin" isn't one-shotting people. No duh. That'd be overpowered and impossible to actually shut down if played by someone good.

 

Do I agree with the +1 identity? Yes and no. My main issue is that the notion of the thief being based around +1'ing at this point is balanced largely around only a few specific combinations of traits, weapons, and utilities, while others are designed around the original concept of the thief being a potent duelist and then left by the wayside and negated either by nerfs or simply powercreep to other professions which detract from its ability to do its job.

 

Beating an opponent in a 1v1 should be the result of skilled gameplay rather than the class just being good at it. This used to be the case with more telegraphed skills, higher cooldowns, and less auto-death effects, persistent invulns, and boon spam. Most of the thief's capabilities in pitch combat are locked behind uptime of their opponents' buffs rather than responding and acting around cooldowns and negating opposing pressure.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > The thief isn't meant to be a potent class in fights. ANet has been adamant about that for a long time. Thus the duty of +1 relegation.

> > >

> > > Which I kind of understand because the dirty tricks that fuels the profession can easily feel like cheese and be annoying to play against. Permanent stealth and burst. Lots of mobility. Near-permanent evades. Insane one-button burst. CC spam... all of these builds have been dominant in the past and really don't require a lot of skill to play and crush the scene at the lower levels.

> > >

> > > Also I don't think Ben has any say in profession design. None of the PvP devs ever did. That's solely on the professions team which seems to be an entirely separate group of people.

> >

> > How is thief not meant to be potent in fights? Thief is like the main archetype for a duelist or assassin that kills their target quickly.

>

> ANet profession design leads have come out repeatedly and said it's meant to be the +1 class not favored to win 1v1 in **an environment of limited physical size.**

> The notion of the potent duelist is outdated and blatantly incorrect as far as the vision of the current dev team goes. This is nothing new. For those who've been around since launch, it's been repeated ad nausea and why so many people reroll from thief. It only holds up in WvW because of build granularity and higher innate stats which have good synergy with its high scaling damage potential.

>

i dont think that eviroment of limited physical size includes WvW, there you mostly have space. so while a thief can kite he is not limited to the +1 role. but yes the WvW stats help aswell, but also make opponents more defensive not just the thief more offensive.

i think that dev statement was mainly for sPvP

 

 

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> The thief isn't meant to be a potent class in fights. ANet has been adamant about that for a long time. Thus the duty of +1 relegation.

>

> Which I kind of understand because the dirty tricks that fuels the profession can easily feel like cheese and be annoying to play against. Permanent stealth and burst. Lots of mobility. Near-permanent evades. Insane one-button burst. CC spam... all of these builds have been dominant in the past and really don't require a lot of skill to play and crush the scene at the lower levels.

>

> Also I don't think Ben has any say in profession design. None of the PvP devs ever did. That's solely on the professions team which seems to be an entirely separate group of people.

 

Thief was designed initially to be really good at PvP and taking down players. I fucking hate our current state. It was intended to be a potent class in fights that depended on user's skill. If you look at the core kit. It was designed around some amount of escape or chase, the ability to single people out, to slow people down, whittle them down, or to catch up to them. Most of the utilities weren't too useful in PvE. THe off hand pistols were duelist weapons. They interrupted attacks, blinded, and allowed the thief to catch up to people. The dagger offhand is designed to stay on top of people and to slow people down. But unfortunately too many people complained about thief being broken, despite the large number of short comings.

 

+1 was not design. That was just some stuff that became meta in the player base because of how Mobile thief is, along with how easy the strat is for most players. If the thief was actually good, then if you weren't a mesmer or a guardian and you ran around the corner thinking you can kill the thief. The thief would just flat out kill you.

 

Hell at launch and before all these nerfs. Thief was incredibly versatile in their roles.

 

in SPvP +1 wasn't the main thief function.

Thief would often run ahead of the team to cap a flanking control point (not always far).

Thief's goal was to often intercept and kill players that were roaming check points. If a team fight broke out, you had plenty of options. Jump in and kill the Ele, Ranger, or distract the mesmer. Isolate one of the enemy players from their team and kill them with scorpion wire or an Engie Gunbutt.

Flank control points and kill who ever is guarding it.

 

in WvW. You were scouts, roamers, backline assassins, the guy that kept the zerg from getting destroyed by killing the Rangers and Elementalist who are posted up on hills. Sabotuers who cloaked and ran behind the enemy zerg to destroy their siege weapons. Condi thieves were nasty in zergs because of Shortbows poison field. etc.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Thief was incredibly overpowered at and surrounding launch. People were literally hitting 15k damage Steals and the Revealed debuff didn't exist which let D/D players endlessly spam CnD in permastealth at 20% higher damage, the BP blind pulse rate was doubled with a larger radius, Dagger Storm had absolutely silly high damage, SA gave permanent might, and D/P's permastealth combo actually **gained** initiative. The thief had "tools" back then because it was legitimately busted. I literally fought and won 1v20 in the first few weeks surrounding launch because everything died in 1-2 hits and I never ran out of stealth or initiative.

 

Those may have been the old ideals of the thief but those are not the ones held by the current professions team leads and they haven't held those ideals for many years. Karl has stated repeatedly that the thief is designed to +1. It doesn't matter what any of us think; ANet has stated that's their intention for the role of the class. Go ask some ex-pro players if you really want to. They'll tell you the same thing because ANet literally streamed about it in years' past blatantly stating that is the thief's role: to be weaker on its own and bring unparalleled gank pressure.

 

And when was condi shortbow "nasty" in zergs? It certainly wasn't at launch (it was played power back then when it had 1200 range for cluster bomb blasting water fields/dealing very high power damage) and it hasn't exactly been utilized for WvW since HoT.

 

 

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Thief was incredibly overpowered at and surrounding launch. People were literally hitting 15k damage Steals and the Revealed debuff didn't exist which let D/D players endlessly spam CnD in permastealth at 20% higher damage, the BP blind pulse rate was doubled with a larger radius, Dagger Storm had absolutely silly high damage, SA gave permanent might, and D/P's permastealth combo actually **gained** initiative. The thief had "tools" back then because it was legitimately busted. I literally fought and won 1v20 in the first few weeks surrounding launch because everything died in 1-2 hits and I never ran out of stealth or initiative.

>

> Those may have been the old ideals of the thief but those are not the ones held by the current professions team leads and they haven't held those ideals for many years. Karl has stated repeatedly that the thief is designed to +1. It doesn't matter what any of us think; ANet has stated that's their intention for the role of the class. Go ask some ex-pro players if you really want to. They'll tell you the same thing because ANet literally streamed about it in years' past blatantly stating that is the thief's role: to be weaker on its own and bring unparalleled gank pressure.

>

> And when was condi shortbow "nasty" in zergs? It certainly wasn't at launch (it was played power back then when it had 1200 range for cluster bomb blasting water fields/dealing very high power damage) and it hasn't exactly been utilized for WvW since HoT.

>

>

 

I mean this was written by Karl about the daredevil https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/meet-the-daredevil-thiefs-elite-specialization/ He literally paints the picture of a daredevil being very potent in fights. If I read that as a new player I would expect to go into pve, pvp, wvw, etc and be able to take one anyone I want or even come out on top when outnumbered.

[saerni.2584]

I’m often able to come out ok in a 1v2 depending on the opponents.

 

If the opponents have too much sustain or are played very well then it won’t work out but I do t think anyone should expect, with even skill and appropriate builds to always come out a winner 1v2.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I’m often able to come out ok in a 1v2 depending on the opponents.

>

> If the opponents have too much sustain or are played very well then it won’t work out but I do t think anyone should expect, with even skill and appropriate builds to always come out a winner 1v2.

 

Which should be doable. I just think being piegeonhold into a +1 is boring. Where as all other professions can be pretty good at doing each role. They can duel, they can be bunker, they can even roam close to as well as thieves etc. That is kind of where I am getting at. We are stuck in this +1 role but in reality would teams rather have a thief or another mesmer etc etc.

[Xenji.4907]

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

>

> I mean this was written by Karl about the daredevil https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/meet-the-daredevil-thiefs-elite-specialization/ He literally paints the picture of a daredevil being very potent in fights. If I read that as a new player I would expect to go into pve, pvp, wvw, etc and be able to take one anyone I want or even come out on top when outnumbered.

 

That page seems like it is only referring to Staff DD. Which is true because of their staff abilities(high dmg, AOE, and dodge while attacking - VAULT and BOUND) and the benefits of the evade abilities and using bonus dmg for staff(DD traitline) makes them deadly/fun in pve, pvp, wvw and raids. Which is why you see Staff DD in all meta except for pvp but I still see a lot of players play them because it's fun in pvp.

 

[saerni.2584]

It depends, the bunker evade thief is really annoying if played well.

 

But you’re right there are some issues where certain professions can fill multiple roles on the fly. And everyone expects a roamer thief rather than a more support oriented style.

 

I’d like to see a boost to our revival traits given how exposed a thief is res’ing. That could make a ninja nurse work better in PvP where revives can decide the battle.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> It depends, the bunker evade thief is really annoying if played well.

>

> But you’re right there are some issues where certain professions can fill multiple roles on the fly. And everyone expects a roamer thief rather than a more support oriented style.

>

> I’d like to see a boost to our revival traits given how exposed a thief is res’ing. That could make a ninja nurse work better in PvP where revives can decide the battle.

 

not sure how good it is in sPvP but using your revival trait wich is baseline in SA can deny pretty much any stomp unless the downed is affected by revealed and the stealth you proivde reduces their damage recieved aswell by 25%. at least in WvW with those traits i was able to rez alot of people that would have been impossible without those traits as it also takes away aggro from them in groupfights against average opponents, they dont fight what they dont see.

[saerni.2584]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > It depends, the bunker evade thief is really annoying if played well.

> >

> > But you’re right there are some issues where certain professions can fill multiple roles on the fly. And everyone expects a roamer thief rather than a more support oriented style.

> >

> > I’d like to see a boost to our revival traits given how exposed a thief is res’ing. That could make a ninja nurse work better in PvP where revives can decide the battle.

>

> not sure how good it is in sPvP but using your revival trait wich is baseline in SA can deny pretty much any stomp unless the downed is affected by revealed and the stealth you proivde reduces their damage recieved aswell by 25%. at least in WvW with those traits i was able to rez alot of people that would have been impossible without those traits as it also takes away aggro from them in groupfights against average opponents, they dont fight what they dont see.

 

Yeah I use those all the time. The issue is that few players run those traits so people often attack after I stealth them and get stomped as a result.

 

If the revive bonus was slightly better (given how fast some other professions can revive) more people would get used to using the trait (both giving and receiving the benefits).

[MUDse.7623]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > It depends, the bunker evade thief is really annoying if played well.

> > >

> > > But you’re right there are some issues where certain professions can fill multiple roles on the fly. And everyone expects a roamer thief rather than a more support oriented style.

> > >

> > > I’d like to see a boost to our revival traits given how exposed a thief is res’ing. That could make a ninja nurse work better in PvP where revives can decide the battle.

> >

> > not sure how good it is in sPvP but using your revival trait wich is baseline in SA can deny pretty much any stomp unless the downed is affected by revealed and the stealth you proivde reduces their damage recieved aswell by 25%. at least in WvW with those traits i was able to rez alot of people that would have been impossible without those traits as it also takes away aggro from them in groupfights against average opponents, they dont fight what they dont see.

>

> Yeah I use those all the time. The issue is that few players run those traits so people often attack after I stealth them and get stomped as a result.

>

> If the revive bonus was slightly better (given how fast some other professions can revive) more people would get used to using the trait (both giving and receiving the benefits).

 

i dont think more people would use it as it is in SA. many thief players hate that traitline and hate anyone that runs them cause 'cheeese' for whatever reason. if i see my ally attacking i wait with rezzing till shortly before the end of the stomp, this will deny the stomp and many stop to attack at that moment.

[saerni.2584]

Despite the very vocal “anti-cheese” contingent I feel there are fewer hang ups these days. More play condi than ever thanks to it being viable (and more people take cleanse to deal with the viability of those builds).

 

SA is also pretty strong in a Deadeye build so I feel a few more will give the specialization a second look.

[Urejt.5648]

yes, other classes do things better. Mirage is better decapper than devil dp, mirage is better in duels, deadeye is utter garbage because of one stealth cooldown. Ranger is much better rangev atacker than rifle deadeye, has better stealth than deadeye with one master trait used.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

Anet couldn't get back to us about any of this any faster...

 

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Thief was incredibly overpowered at and surrounding launch. People were literally hitting 15k damage Steals and the Revealed debuff didn't exist which let D/D players endlessly spam CnD in permastealth at 20% higher damage, the BP blind pulse rate was doubled with a larger radius, Dagger Storm had absolutely silly high damage, SA gave permanent might, and D/P's permastealth combo actually **gained** initiative. The thief had "tools" back then because it was legitimately busted. I literally fought and won 1v20 in the first few weeks surrounding launch because everything died in 1-2 hits and I never ran out of stealth or initiative.

>

> Those may have been the old ideals of the thief but those are not the ones held by the current professions team leads and they haven't held those ideals for many years. Karl has stated repeatedly that the thief is designed to +1. It doesn't matter what any of us think; ANet has stated that's their intention for the role of the class. Go ask some ex-pro players if you really want to. They'll tell you the same thing because ANet literally streamed about it in years' past blatantly stating that is the thief's role: to be weaker on its own and bring unparalleled gank pressure.

>

> And when was condi shortbow "nasty" in zergs? It certainly wasn't at launch (it was played power back then when it had 1200 range for cluster bomb blasting water fields/dealing very high power damage) and it hasn't exactly been utilized for WvW since HoT.

>

>

 

The 15k steal is actually a spike with expected behavior. It was a heart seaker into steal mid air, which was combined with mug and Assassin's Signet. Against a damaged target, you'd hit them for 15k if they were not wearing armor. Steal into a backstab was also a common thing.

 

Thief was intentionally designed with high single target burst damage in mind, and it delivered very well. But you still couldn't face roll. Which is why we actually can't rotate our abilities very well. Nevermind the fact that they aren't meant for rotating to begin with.

 

1v20 was normal for any class back then. Most players were still learning, or just outright did not know how to fight other specs. Thief was the most annoying about it because their mobility allowed them to kite and single people out.

 

Dagger Storm did not actually have high damage. They had to buff months after launch. Even then, the only reason players took it into combat was most of thiefs Elites were just garbage then. You had absolutely no reason to take basilisk venom. It was a blockable venom with only a 1 second stun in all game modes. It wasn't useful. Thieves guild wasn't taken very often because the thieves do not tend to spread out, and get cleaved down in a heart beat. And Dagger Storm was a double edged sword. Damage is based on proximity and the number of players. You only threw up to 6 (I think) daggers in the full duration of it. And how many daggers were thrown were dependent on how close you were to people. If you were in melee range you'd get the full amount. Further away and it lowers. Now it's eight daggers. Stability was the only thing protecting you before the stability changes. Previously it protected you from all CC for the duration of the cast. Now you only have one stack, and one CC will take it away. Against one player, it was worthless. Against multiple players it was decent when combined with shadowsteps.

 

Dagger Storm was nerfed. But only by Stability changes. Since then, players have never touched it. And only take Basilisk Venom. While Anet was toying around with what they wanted it to do. Thieves abused it. There was a time you had multiple charges. So you'd hit someone once, and they'd break it. You hit them again and they'd either break it or get stunned. And now it's a single use unblockable with built in venom share.

 

And I don't give a FUCK that Karl wants thief to +1. I don't want thief to be exclusively +1 anymore. I want OLD thief back. I miss the days when Thief had a clean and cut reason to be feared. When players knew he was good at one thing, wrecking your shit if you were alone and not Ranger, Guardian, or Mesmer. Before all of these rediculous nerfs because players couldn't figure out what our weaknesses were. Or that they just didn't want to play around those weaknesses.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> Anet couldn't get back to us about any of this any faster...

>

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > Thief was incredibly overpowered at and surrounding launch. People were literally hitting 15k damage Steals and the Revealed debuff didn't exist which let D/D players endlessly spam CnD in permastealth at 20% higher damage, the BP blind pulse rate was doubled with a larger radius, Dagger Storm had absolutely silly high damage, SA gave permanent might, and D/P's permastealth combo actually **gained** initiative. The thief had "tools" back then because it was legitimately busted. I literally fought and won 1v20 in the first few weeks surrounding launch because everything died in 1-2 hits and I never ran out of stealth or initiative.

> >

> > Those may have been the old ideals of the thief but those are not the ones held by the current professions team leads and they haven't held those ideals for many years. Karl has stated repeatedly that the thief is designed to +1. It doesn't matter what any of us think; ANet has stated that's their intention for the role of the class. Go ask some ex-pro players if you really want to. They'll tell you the same thing because ANet literally streamed about it in years' past blatantly stating that is the thief's role: to be weaker on its own and bring unparalleled gank pressure.

> >

> > And when was condi shortbow "nasty" in zergs? It certainly wasn't at launch (it was played power back then when it had 1200 range for cluster bomb blasting water fields/dealing very high power damage) and it hasn't exactly been utilized for WvW since HoT.

> >

> >

>

> The 15k steal is actually a spike with expected behavior. It was a heart seaker into steal mid air, which was combined with mug and Assassin's Signet. Against a damaged target, you'd hit them for 15k if they were not wearing armor. Steal into a backstab was also a common thing.

>

> Thief was intentionally designed with high single target burst damage in mind, and it delivered very well. But you still couldn't face roll. Which is why we actually can't rotate our abilities very well. Nevermind the fact that they aren't meant for rotating to begin with.

>

> 1v20 was normal for any class back then. Most players were still learning, or just outright did not know how to fight other specs. Thief was the most annoying about it because their mobility allowed them to kite and single people out.

>

> Dagger Storm did not actually have high damage. They had to buff months after launch. Even then, the only reason players took it into combat was most of thiefs Elites were just garbage then. You had absolutely no reason to take basilisk venom. It was a blockable venom with only a 1 second stun in all game modes. It wasn't useful. Thieves guild wasn't taken very often because the thieves do not tend to spread out, and get cleaved down in a heart beat. And Dagger Storm was a double edged sword. Damage is based on proximity and the number of players. You only threw up to 6 (I think) daggers in the full duration of it. And how many daggers were thrown were dependent on how close you were to people. If you were in melee range you'd get the full amount. Further away and it lowers. Now it's eight daggers. Stability was the only thing protecting you before the stability changes. Previously it protected you from all CC for the duration of the cast. Now you only have one stack, and one CC will take it away. Against one player, it was worthless. Against multiple players it was decent when combined with shadowsteps.

>

> Dagger Storm was nerfed. But only by Stability changes. Since then, players have never touched it. And only take Basilisk Venom. While Anet was toying around with what they wanted it to do. Thieves abused it. There was a time you had multiple charges. So you'd hit someone once, and they'd break it. You hit them again and they'd either break it or get stunned. And now it's a single use unblockable with built in venom share.

>

> And I don't give a kitten that Karl wants thief to +1. I don't want thief to be exclusively +1 anymore. I want OLD thief back. I miss the days when Thief had a clean and cut reason to be feared. When players knew he was good at one thing, wrecking your kitten if you were alone and not Ranger, Guardian, or Mesmer. Before all of these rediculous nerfs because players couldn't figure out what our weaknesses were. Or that they just didn't want to play around those weaknesses.

 

For the record I cannot find anywhere where Karl stated thief is a +1 and that is what we want it to be anywhere.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > Anet couldn't get back to us about any of this any faster...

> >

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > Thief was incredibly overpowered at and surrounding launch. People were literally hitting 15k damage Steals and the Revealed debuff didn't exist which let D/D players endlessly spam CnD in permastealth at 20% higher damage, the BP blind pulse rate was doubled with a larger radius, Dagger Storm had absolutely silly high damage, SA gave permanent might, and D/P's permastealth combo actually **gained** initiative. The thief had "tools" back then because it was legitimately busted. I literally fought and won 1v20 in the first few weeks surrounding launch because everything died in 1-2 hits and I never ran out of stealth or initiative.

> > >

> > > Those may have been the old ideals of the thief but those are not the ones held by the current professions team leads and they haven't held those ideals for many years. Karl has stated repeatedly that the thief is designed to +1. It doesn't matter what any of us think; ANet has stated that's their intention for the role of the class. Go ask some ex-pro players if you really want to. They'll tell you the same thing because ANet literally streamed about it in years' past blatantly stating that is the thief's role: to be weaker on its own and bring unparalleled gank pressure.

> > >

> > > And when was condi shortbow "nasty" in zergs? It certainly wasn't at launch (it was played power back then when it had 1200 range for cluster bomb blasting water fields/dealing very high power damage) and it hasn't exactly been utilized for WvW since HoT.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > The 15k steal is actually a spike with expected behavior. It was a heart seaker into steal mid air, which was combined with mug and Assassin's Signet. Against a damaged target, you'd hit them for 15k if they were not wearing armor. Steal into a backstab was also a common thing.

> >

> > Thief was intentionally designed with high single target burst damage in mind, and it delivered very well. But you still couldn't face roll. Which is why we actually can't rotate our abilities very well. Nevermind the fact that they aren't meant for rotating to begin with.

> >

> > 1v20 was normal for any class back then. Most players were still learning, or just outright did not know how to fight other specs. Thief was the most annoying about it because their mobility allowed them to kite and single people out.

> >

> > Dagger Storm did not actually have high damage. They had to buff months after launch. Even then, the only reason players took it into combat was most of thiefs Elites were just garbage then. You had absolutely no reason to take basilisk venom. It was a blockable venom with only a 1 second stun in all game modes. It wasn't useful. Thieves guild wasn't taken very often because the thieves do not tend to spread out, and get cleaved down in a heart beat. And Dagger Storm was a double edged sword. Damage is based on proximity and the number of players. You only threw up to 6 (I think) daggers in the full duration of it. And how many daggers were thrown were dependent on how close you were to people. If you were in melee range you'd get the full amount. Further away and it lowers. Now it's eight daggers. Stability was the only thing protecting you before the stability changes. Previously it protected you from all CC for the duration of the cast. Now you only have one stack, and one CC will take it away. Against one player, it was worthless. Against multiple players it was decent when combined with shadowsteps.

> >

> > Dagger Storm was nerfed. But only by Stability changes. Since then, players have never touched it. And only take Basilisk Venom. While Anet was toying around with what they wanted it to do. Thieves abused it. There was a time you had multiple charges. So you'd hit someone once, and they'd break it. You hit them again and they'd either break it or get stunned. And now it's a single use unblockable with built in venom share.

> >

> > And I don't give a kitten that Karl wants thief to +1. I don't want thief to be exclusively +1 anymore. I want OLD thief back. I miss the days when Thief had a clean and cut reason to be feared. When players knew he was good at one thing, wrecking your kitten if you were alone and not Ranger, Guardian, or Mesmer. Before all of these rediculous nerfs because players couldn't figure out what our weaknesses were. Or that they just didn't want to play around those weaknesses.

>

> For the record I cannot find anywhere where Karl stated thief is a +1 and that is what we want it to be anywhere.

 

As you can see ;-; I am very heart broken about thief right now.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > Anet couldn't get back to us about any of this any faster...

> > >

> > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > Thief was incredibly overpowered at and surrounding launch. People were literally hitting 15k damage Steals and the Revealed debuff didn't exist which let D/D players endlessly spam CnD in permastealth at 20% higher damage, the BP blind pulse rate was doubled with a larger radius, Dagger Storm had absolutely silly high damage, SA gave permanent might, and D/P's permastealth combo actually **gained** initiative. The thief had "tools" back then because it was legitimately busted. I literally fought and won 1v20 in the first few weeks surrounding launch because everything died in 1-2 hits and I never ran out of stealth or initiative.

> > > >

> > > > Those may have been the old ideals of the thief but those are not the ones held by the current professions team leads and they haven't held those ideals for many years. Karl has stated repeatedly that the thief is designed to +1. It doesn't matter what any of us think; ANet has stated that's their intention for the role of the class. Go ask some ex-pro players if you really want to. They'll tell you the same thing because ANet literally streamed about it in years' past blatantly stating that is the thief's role: to be weaker on its own and bring unparalleled gank pressure.

> > > >

> > > > And when was condi shortbow "nasty" in zergs? It certainly wasn't at launch (it was played power back then when it had 1200 range for cluster bomb blasting water fields/dealing very high power damage) and it hasn't exactly been utilized for WvW since HoT.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > The 15k steal is actually a spike with expected behavior. It was a heart seaker into steal mid air, which was combined with mug and Assassin's Signet. Against a damaged target, you'd hit them for 15k if they were not wearing armor. Steal into a backstab was also a common thing.

> > >

> > > Thief was intentionally designed with high single target burst damage in mind, and it delivered very well. But you still couldn't face roll. Which is why we actually can't rotate our abilities very well. Nevermind the fact that they aren't meant for rotating to begin with.

> > >

> > > 1v20 was normal for any class back then. Most players were still learning, or just outright did not know how to fight other specs. Thief was the most annoying about it because their mobility allowed them to kite and single people out.

> > >

> > > Dagger Storm did not actually have high damage. They had to buff months after launch. Even then, the only reason players took it into combat was most of thiefs Elites were just garbage then. You had absolutely no reason to take basilisk venom. It was a blockable venom with only a 1 second stun in all game modes. It wasn't useful. Thieves guild wasn't taken very often because the thieves do not tend to spread out, and get cleaved down in a heart beat. And Dagger Storm was a double edged sword. Damage is based on proximity and the number of players. You only threw up to 6 (I think) daggers in the full duration of it. And how many daggers were thrown were dependent on how close you were to people. If you were in melee range you'd get the full amount. Further away and it lowers. Now it's eight daggers. Stability was the only thing protecting you before the stability changes. Previously it protected you from all CC for the duration of the cast. Now you only have one stack, and one CC will take it away. Against one player, it was worthless. Against multiple players it was decent when combined with shadowsteps.

> > >

> > > Dagger Storm was nerfed. But only by Stability changes. Since then, players have never touched it. And only take Basilisk Venom. While Anet was toying around with what they wanted it to do. Thieves abused it. There was a time you had multiple charges. So you'd hit someone once, and they'd break it. You hit them again and they'd either break it or get stunned. And now it's a single use unblockable with built in venom share.

> > >

> > > And I don't give a kitten that Karl wants thief to +1. I don't want thief to be exclusively +1 anymore. I want OLD thief back. I miss the days when Thief had a clean and cut reason to be feared. When players knew he was good at one thing, wrecking your kitten if you were alone and not Ranger, Guardian, or Mesmer. Before all of these rediculous nerfs because players couldn't figure out what our weaknesses were. Or that they just didn't want to play around those weaknesses.

> >

> > For the record I cannot find anywhere where Karl stated thief is a +1 and that is what we want it to be anywhere.

>

> As you can see ;-; I am very heart broken about thief right now.

 

A lot of us are in the same boat.

[Alatar.7364]

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

>

> For the record I cannot find anywhere where Karl stated thief is a +1 and that is what we want it to be anywhere.

 

Me too. I could find only the very opposites such as mentioning The Thief to be intended as "_ultimate duelist_" or in case of DD "_an up-close fighter that can engage multiple enemies_"

 

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@"Karl McLain.5604" Any input? We're a pack of daunted wolves with a broken identity.

[Alatar.7364]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> @"Karl McLain.5604" Any input? We're a pack of daunted wolves with a broken identity.

 

Beg your pardon?

I identify myself as a punching bag, mind you.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @"Karl McLain.5604" Any input? We're a pack of daunted wolves with a broken identity.

>

> Beg your pardon?

> I identify myself as a punching bag, mind you.

 

And Punching bags, and charrs. And murder floofs. And blunted knives. And dwarves, and humans, plant monsters, flying sphaghiti sticks, nope ropes, cthulhu noodles, giants, lizard people, quaggans, krait bait, and so on.