saerni.2584

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > Core/DD Stolen Skills are all potentially good depending on what they are combo'd with/situationally. As mentioned, throw gunk is a great skill with projectile finishers. The outliers are the ones like tuft or plasma that add significantly to sustain. Others depend heavily on XvX scenarios where you can use, for example, spinning axe against a ranger or DH ranged burst. > > > > As a reminder there are also Deadeye Stolen Skills, which can give you stealth, and which individually include some nice gems: > > * (Rev) and (Necro) are additional damage condition application. > > * (Ranger) applies Immobilize and gives you Superspeed. > > * (Mesmer) gives you Quickness. > > * (Guardian) gives you Aegis. > > > > In that sense you can think of Deadeye Stolen Skills as a hybrid between condi application and a mini plasma that only grants one boon but can also function as a tuft at or above 5 malice. That makes all of them more useful in most situations but somewhat less individually impactful as one of the Core skills. > > > > Another one; > The DE thief stolen skill applies blind and hits the thief as long as he's in range, regardless of stealth. Taking improv and using this after a DD enters stealth can really shift a DE vs DD matchup by denying the backstab, forcing him to burn initiative to clear the blind, or making him rely on shadow shot instead, which means you have a range advantage, better ini regen through mercy/M7 and an easy blind cleanse in rifle 4. It also should be noted that with a crit the skill hits 1-1.5k. If you use both skills (Improv) or have extra Stolen Skills from Cantrips trait you will be able to hit someone multiple times even while they are in stealth.

> @"RagiNagi.1802" said: > Do you have a trait bar for me? And some basic rotation of skills? I will put something together but give me a little time. I don't PvE so it's not something I keep on hand.

There's plenty of options for PvE. You might consider a Deadeye rifle build for at least some of it because you can have perma-boons with high single target damage. I think a number of options work well though.

Core/DD Stolen Skills are all potentially good depending on what they are combo'd with/situationally. As mentioned, throw gunk is a great skill with projectile finishers. The outliers are the ones like tuft or plasma that add significantly to sustain. Others depend heavily on XvX scenarios where you can use, for example, spinning axe against a ranger or DH ranged burst. As a reminder there are also Deadeye Stolen Skills, which can give you stealth, and which individually include some nice gems: * (Rev) and (Necro) are additional damage condition application. * (Ranger) applies Immobilize and gives you Superspeed. * (Mesmer) gives you Quickness. * (Guardian) gives you Aegis. In that sense you can think of Deadeye Stolen Skills as a hybrid between condi application and a mini plasma that only grants one boon but can also function as a tuft at or above 5 malice. That makes all of them more useful in most situations but somewhat less individually impactful as one of the Core skills.

> @"aaron.7850" said: > I have tried Pistol Dagger condi thief.. but for the life of me I can never seem to connect Shadow Strike on moving targets.. it just slashes through the air and I am left a sitting duck after that. If you are using a core/daredevil build you should be able to steal/swipe and then Shadowstrike. If you are using DE it takes more practice/coordination but it can be done with practice and using Dancing Dagger to slow them down.

Traps have a delay on most of their effects. Dodge across the space where the trap likely is and you will avoid 80% of the effect, more in the case of DH traps. Don't focus too much on standing on point versus a trap build. They may get the cap but if you don't over commit to the point you can win the 1v1 and then decap you won't lose that many points. A roamer is the team's DPS support so you should prioritize the kill over the decap if you can win the 1v1 without focusing on the point. DH trapper running Trapper rune for stealth tends to be glassy because they rely on stealth for defense. If you can burst them they are reliable kills as long as you out stealth them after each burst. The rune is good but thief is better at stealth.

North Camp in Alpine is a nice camp for a number of reasons: 1. Easiest to defend from Citadel WP. 2. Easiest to use traps to Mark enemies coming into camp due to choke points. 3. Farthest from enemy spawn so losing a person is a major loss for your enemies. 3. Required to feed supply into NET and NWT. 4. With Watchtower NET/NWT a couple of roamers can mostly secure the entire north of the map, including feeding steady supplies into Garrison. 5. NC can also be supported by defending NEC/NWC with roamers who can ensure intermittent yaks to Garrison while spotting roamers heading for NC. 6. (Getting Garrison to T3 vastly improves that team's ability to control the map) and for roamers who prefer to stay south side to respawn or change sides of the map fast). This is all to say that NC is something that smart players can defend to unlock roaming potential for their team on the map through securing the Garrison WP. It's the easiest way to get quality of life improvements to gameplay. In reverse, it's also true that holding NC as an enemy roamer is a prestige target.

It would be weird to code in an exception for wvw on swim speed. It's not like Anet bothered to nerf water weapons when they did the February 2020 mega nerf so you still see higher numbers if you (rarely) fight in the water. I believe this worked a while ago but as mentioned, unless you pay a lot of gold, you basically get almost no benefit from having it other than convenience in a few spots to speed up your travel time.

> @"Tridentuk.1625" said: > @saerni.2584 > That dire/tb condi pd is basically what I currently run with core, partly because it's good for nubs (I can win a pretty good amount of 1v1s against players who should be better than someone only playing for a month, the rotation is so simple and destroys anyone who isn't prepared- get owned by some but that's normal considering I'm pretty new) and partly cos I'm poor and it gives me survivability while learning fractals without having to switch gear. If they're a target I can kill it's pretty obvious after my initial burst, but I also get outplayed by any thief with more stealth than I do (which is nearly all of them), but then again the extra tank gives me the chance to get away. > > So you think this is a better version of the pd setup clearly? I just finished my DE spec and would be willing to work on the gear to switch (I only have a few ascended) if people like yourself can vouch hard enough. > > I'm still looking for a PvP/WvW build to make my main, and am willing to put the time into practicing mechanics, in fact sooner the better which is why I'm asking. Stealth is the biggest issue generally thief v thief. For that reason the best strategy is to kite out the enemy thief and force them to chase and use cool downs. That said, if you can force their cool downs while mostly saving your own you will do decently. The switch from Core to DE while using Trickery basically neuters your condi damage because poison from DA is huge. (For PvE type stuff I'd drop out of SA and go M7 with DA for more damage). But, you gain a lot of extra stealth from DE and bonuses to Sneak Attack so I'd view it as a cousin to the more condi heavy and sustain oriented Core builds. One isn't better than another. But I like the ability of hybrid to avoid getting shut down by cleanses and needing to run away. Hybrid can kill anything given the right opportunities.

I'll just toss in an agreement. I run into good players who push their builds to the limit and are genuinely fun to fight win or lose. Then I run into people who think 3v1ing someone makes them good. Honestly, it's the first kind of people that make the second kind bearable.

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > Respectable play, and a neat loadout. Though I wonder if opting more for the condi side of durability in Dire/TB is worthwhile in some outnumbered fighting. My troll P/unequip DE does a shocking amount of damage for how durable it is. I'm honestly surprised more people didn't punish as aggressively as they could have in the windows you were revealed since you are fairly glassy. > > I will say, that pug rev in the first fight is an absolute legend for surviving all that time on his own during your stealthing when fighting into that size of a group of Mag lol. I find that to get the fluid stealth access through stolen skills the higher crit rate is essential. I used to run Dire and Trailblazer back before condi cleanse got ridiculous (the main hard counter at that point was Diamond Skin ele). I've been running hybrid for a couple of years now but the most recent iteration is a product of completely rebuilding myself from the ground up. I find doing damage is essential to sustain simply because I can pressure higher dps enemies so they can't free cast. You still do get stuck when multiple others are paired with a high sustain damage dealer (like a proper burn guard) or a oneshot Mesmer or Soulbeast. Those oneshot builds have enough invuln and can cover massive spike damage enough to really present a problem in groups.

> @"babazhook.6805" said: > Good link. I have a few differences. I am actually using pressure strike out of trickery and then absorption sigil on the p/d set. This is coupled with draining sigil. I then use Scorpion wire. This teamed with Tormenting runes as this coupled with the SA sustain adds nicely to ongoing heals. Scorpion wire allows for interrupts over and above the steal in p/d and this allows me to steal more boons then just bountiful theft overall with the sigil of absorption. > > On an interrupt I steal 3 boons, apply two stacks torment, heal off the draining sigil and get the heal off the torment runes and with SOH+SW combo have 3 separate interrupt sources . When i swap to SB the poison field interrupt is very potent. > > One thing I do not have down as well as you is that CnD. I tend to whiff mine more :) That's sounds nice and potent with interrupts. I'm not as good as I used to be with CnD. Back when Dash didn't have exhaustion I ran a Daredevil version that could gap close that way for quick CnD. Now I've replaced that with using F2's for stealth and CnD in much more limited circumstances. I'd note that the combo of Sleight of Hand and Sigil of Celerity means my Mark serves as 5 seconds of quickness. Add in BQoBK and you get a nice duration to land a burst in. And the cooldown reset on Mark means it can be more consistently available in combo with Stealth from Mark. Which, I should also mention is helpful because Quickness lets you queue up a Sneak Attack as long as you aren't too close to the target. An auto attack might break stealth but only after your Sneak Attack is firing. Makes it easier to apply damage and not get stuck wasting stealth by being unable to drop malice.

> @"Hannelore.8153" said: > I don't think any changes to Reveal are necessary in PvP, except maybe giving more classes access to it. > > In WvW however something desparately needs to be done about permastealth Deadeye troll roamers whose only purpose is to follow the group for two hours and do nothing else until they eventually get bored and log off. > > Its not even a playing style, its just weird. Obsessive, even. And at this point I think its harming WvW uptake by newer players, since this is one of the first things they experience after coming to the game mode without a huge zerg. > > But Core Thief and Daredevil are okay, so I'm not sure touching Reveal is the solution. I don't see many/any permastealth DE roamers. Or thieves in general for that matter. Most are necro, ranger, guardian, rev. I see more Mesmer players than thieves. When I hear about people getting "stalked for hours" I have to wonder how a person doesn't get killed for hours at a time. Like, they have to maintain participation too. If they are invisible and not able to get kills they are wasting their time. Meanwhile, if they are getting kills, it's not "them stalking you for hours" because they are visible while attacking you/allies. You/allies respawn, return to the same spot, and then they attack and kill you/allies again. Not sure why it's the thief's fault you/other players are feeding them at that point. If they are following a Zerg they are probably scouting for their team. Killing randoms who fall behind is necessary to keep up participation (because few zergs bother to give scouts participation). That's good tactics on their part and not as strange as you might think.

> @"babazhook.6805" said: > If one focused on percent adds in WvW > > You can go DE to get the 10 percent to Iron sight +10 for eagles runes when target under 50 and 20 for Executioner for the same. Obviously this predicated on health at under 50 percent .You can then add in force and night sigil for 15 more . Exposed weakness is in there as well but I would not consider it as more then say 4 percent. > > As to signets I find I use the Signet of shadows more. This allows me the eagles runes while still not hitting my land speed too much while adding another blind source with added vuln/weakness. This gives a little boost to what you get from exposed weakness. (6 percent boost if no other conditions were on meaning 6 plus the 10 from vuln). What also nice is it can hit multiples so if you are up close and engaged against two or three the blind can give you an out. > > That all said I have found you should invest more in perception/ferocity. It used to be you could do fine with a crit rate base 50 but I find more and more you need it at 90+ so that every shot a crit. You will lose too many matches if you rely on getting a big hit in and then having it not crit and the enemy can recover too fast. With blocks/invulns/dodges and the like a miss hit miss hit better see those two hits crit. Yeah, going to echo what babaz is saying here. Crit rates can be complex how you get there but the higher the better. Especially for DE which relies so heavily on Malice for damage. SPvP is harder, but in WvW (and PvE) you can get solo crit chances of 93+. It helps in WvW to pick up an Objective Aura too for a roughly 5% crit chance bonus. Every little bit helps ensure you do the damage you need to do to pressure the opponent(s) before they counter attack.

> @"Chrysaliss.8720" said: > Thief is strictly a power dps class. You have to understand, that if you go condi you will be suboptimal and in group content you are likely to be rejected. With that said. If you relly wanna go condi the you need to understand your strenghts and weaknesses. As a condi thief you ae best as sort of a "burst" condi. Meaning you go with d/d and spam 3 till you run out of initiative. Then your dps falls of rapidly. Also dont use carrion gear. Use Viper gear it is far better. And as for spec you should go daredevil, because you can modify your dodge to apply conditions. It's not, but if you only PvE you might think that way assuming you stick to the so-called meta and don't experiment with other damage setups.

> @"Virgarth.6354" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > To be honest, forget trying to make D/D a condi set. > Good opinions, all of you... But can I remember that the thread was talking about S/D (and not about D/D set which is just my backup). O.o I mean, there is a lacking of "dual wield" in that laceranous strike or whatever the name of the chain is... Ah, I think we misunderstood based on what you wrote exactly what you were suggesting. If there is a skill 3 on a weapon it should be triggering Deadly Ambition. When Repeater was given to P/D it also lacked being labeled a dual wield skill and didn't trigger. That was fixed after bug reports (although it did take some time).

> @"kash.9213" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > @"Daemonjax.7813" said: > > > I rarely bother using P/D's CnD anymore because of the high initiative cost -- gotta stay in stealth as long as possible to recoup 2+ pips of initiative, so it just makes the fight take longer. This is probably because I'm playing hybrid condi. Sometimes I use it just for fun. You can kill stuff _eventually_ with just CnD by chaining them -- not using sneak attack at all, and just CnD again the moment stealth runs out. Takes forever, but it's fun sometimes to time it just right. > > > > It depends on your exact build and what you're doing with it (PvE or WvW or sPvP). But you can use it for stealth access for another Sneak Attack and it's generally worth it if you need to wait out a projectile block/reflect, so there are both defensive and offensive advantages. > > > > Using CnD effectively is the hard part for X/D **because of how close you need to be** and how much it costs. It is a good tool but you need to manage your initiative and not miss. > > That's the hard part but also the convenient part in larger fights where we can't combo something to stealth and it helps that it's such a classic feeling skill that's fluid to use. I like to use it on NPCs or players I'm not primarily targeting (they rarely dodge) or objects like the supply pile in wvw (assuming it's not held by your team). Those are more likely to work well. Ranger pets, clones, or summons are a good choice if you happen to face those professions (or people using rune based summons).

> @"Daemonjax.7813" said: > I rarely bother using P/D's CnD anymore because of the high initiative cost -- gotta stay in stealth as long as possible to recoup 2+ pips of initiative, so it just makes the fight take longer. This is probably because I'm playing hybrid condi. Sometimes I use it just for fun. You can kill stuff _eventually_ with just CnD by chaining them -- not using sneak attack at all, and just CnD again the moment stealth runs out. Takes forever, but it's fun sometimes to time it just right. It depends on your exact build and what you're doing with it (PvE or WvW or sPvP). But you can use it for stealth access for another Sneak Attack and it's generally worth it if you need to wait out a projectile block/reflect, so there are both defensive and offensive advantages. Using CnD effectively is the hard part for X/D because of how close you need to be and how much it costs. It is a good tool but you need to manage your initiative and not miss.

> @"Daemonjax.7813" said: > I'm kinda new (returning player from 2015ish), and I leveled up a new thief using the Rampager set because it's relatively cheap (exotics). So, full glass (precision, power, condition) -- Deadly Arts, Critical Strikes, and then either Shadow Arts or Trickery. Thief is the only class that I clicked with. I'm not doing dungeons or fractals or zerg wvw, so take this with a grain of salt. So, I guess the hardest pve content I do is solo champions and I try to limit wvw pvp to just me vs 1. I'm not in a guild. I don't party with anyone. > > I found that p/p and p/d are the only weapon sets that are really usable due to how much more initiative efficient they are when compared to all the others, p/p is the most efficient (and you can self buff to 25 stacks of might fast, which benefits both weapon damage and condition damage) with p/d coming in 2nd place. So most initiative efficient is p/p in both weapon swaps and Trickery to keep initiative up to spam unload forever, but I prefer p/p and p/d with Shadow Arts just to keep it somewhat interesting. > > The most FUN is weapon swapping between d/p and p/d due to the at-will movement options, and I actually leveled to 80 that way (after dropping d/d and never looking back). But d/p damage is... not good, and you can't just blind-tank harder pve content. > > I don't like shortbow because Infiltator's Arrow uses too much initiative and the range is only 900. Just my opinion. I'd say Infiltrator's Arrow is best when you need to skip vertical spaces that add up to a lot more than 900. Otherwise it's a smaller bonus for sure (still useful if stealthed because 900 while running in opposite direction from opponents is pretty effective). Main advantage P/D has over P/P is mobility, additional conditions from Dancing Dagger and melee range stealth access from CnD.

Dagger/Dagger isn't a weaker condi set because it can't apply decent conditions as it is built now. It just is less effective to be used that way because Backstab applies no conditions. It also suffers from non-condi auto attack (which it used to be able to have). On balance, Dagger/Dagger is not a condi friendly set for those basic reasons. As an aside, technically, there is no such thing as a pure condi build. Because of the way our stats work everyone always starts with 1k power. We also have base levels of critical hit rate and critical hit damage. This means that any build should, properly, be considered as a hybrid if it boosts condition damage. Further, Might is a boon that boosts both power and condition damage stats. This means that even builds that take no condition damage will still have decent amounts of condition damage if they are based around stacking large amounts of might. Properly, you might say that Dagger/Dagger is a very power oriented hybrid melee weapon set. Conversely, the reason P/D is more suited to condi application is 1) Sneak Attack applies bleed and (if DE) torment, 2) Vital Shot (auto attack) applies bleed, 3) Repeater is harder to avoid/kite than the other melee oriented "Dual Wield" skills (although P/D has a melee requirement initially for Repeater access so it will more consistently trigger Deadly Ambition (if using) while also applying bleed), and 4) gaining stealth means immediate access to a Sneak Attack versus needing melee range on Dagger/X. That's not to say a more power oriented P/D or a condi oriented D/D doesn't make sense. But it does mean you need to consider whether you are getting enough out of all your weapon skills and adjust your stat spread accordingly. Just focusing on the lower condi damage ignores most of your weapon skills if we are looking at D/D for example. To your suggestion, I don't think buffing condition application in that way would be very helpful or consistent with the power heavy orientation of the set. I think if you want to see more condition damage there are other avenues (like Heartseeker applying poison) or by just accepting the hybrid nature of the set and building with that in mind.

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > And what is this "compared to.." list? You're listing that classes need to use their kit? And thief somehow doesn't? That's just false. > > > > It's fundamentally true though. > > No, the point is that it's not. Pretty sure adding "fundamentally" doesn't change anything about that. > > > If a Thief has to fight, say, Vet Guards, they have no need to use any of their slotted utilities at all. > > For all the other builds/professions I listed, they have to at least use a couple of utilities which are part of their combo which form up their build. > > > Unless yu are gonna counter my point by saying people can kill anything with just auto attacks I guess. > > I mean it's fundamentally true though, they can [kill anything with just auto attacks]. > But lets put that aside just to humor you I guess -"the other classes" don't need to use their utilities to kill, say, Vet Guards either. Unless for some reason you count "optimal dps rotation" for other classes, but not for the thief (in which case, it would need to change the utilities from the ones helping survive in pvp in the first place). > I'm confused by the point you're trying to make here. It's stretched out pretty thin right from the previous post where you just randomly list some skills and pseudo-rotations while "just waiting around" in pvp. Apparently if I don't directly quote the post I disagree with my post gets reported and taken down for being off topic. So, to be clear, I disagree with the idea that fighting veteran NPCs is a good way to discuss inter-profession balance issues. I also happen to disagree that no other classes can kill Sentries/Camps (as this is WvW specific) without burning utility cool downs. Most (decent) builds can use weapon skills and Profession skills to kills veterans quickly/easily. Thieves may burn a utility to make a Sentry or Camp go faster. So will other Professions. A ranger can use utilities for boosted damage combos. But that doesn't mean they have to use them. But if they do use them it will be faster and the cooldown isn't so bad they mind using it on a consistent basis (30 seconds isn't a long time in WvW).

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > Don't need to reset. Why reset if you are winning? Managing cool downs is fundamental. But you lose a few cool downs naturally during a fight. It's whether you burn their cool downs in that time. If so then you come out ahead. > > And there we have it. > This is why Thief needs to be nerfed : When both players are equally skilled and blow each other's cooldowns, thief comes out ahead. /s > > > > > > I think it's a fair enough fight. There's a narrative where the thief has to run. And if the thief runs it's unfair because the thief could run. But if the thief wins then it's unfair because thief isn't supposed to win. In reality it's more that thief can either run, which is safer, or fight and risk dying. And winning in that case is more a matter of build craft and skill. Sure a thief could always run but that means they can never win because the cool downs they use to run are the same they need to win (both utilities and in terms of initiative use).

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > Utility is stunbreak. Utility is cleanse. Utility is stealth. > > > > So if you just kite the thief for a bit in the start to bait those cool downs they are trapped. > > > > The strongest thieves don't reset. They just beat you. > > "The strongest thieves don't reset" is false. > If yu manage to force even a good thief to use a couple of cooldowns, they will be quick to break away instead of re-engaging. > > It's a no brainer that a fragile build like most thieves run will refrain from re-engaging when they have no defensive cooldowns left. > This isn't even a Thief centric gameplay tactic, every player who has played the game for awhile will instinctively know how "safe" they feel with how much they have left. > And if they don't feel safe, they usually back off from a fight or wait around buying time for cooldowns and play defensively. > > Only bad players in general get baited into using cooldowns but continue fighting anyway. > > Don't need to reset. Why reset if you are winning? Managing cool downs is fundamental. But you lose a few cool downs naturally during a fight. It's whether you burn their cool downs in that time. If so then you come out ahead.

> @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > Honestly the problem with thieves is SA trait everything else is neglectable if SA trait was nerfed. SA gives incredible amount of sustain to thieves so i don't know why thief mains are saying they don't. Thing with thieves is the ability to reset a fight and reengage right away with no CD aside from utilities which in most cases are not an issue because yes shortbow 5 cannot be spammed anymore but its still one of the best disengage tools in the game. Utility is stunbreak. Utility is cleanse. Utility is stealth. So if you just kite the thief for a bit in the start to bait those cool downs they are trapped. The strongest thieves don't reset. They just beat you.

> @"Khalisto.5780" said: > I played against the same guy, got it on camera, submitted a ticket, reported in game a posted it on forums. > > My post was removed because "accusing" another player is agaisnt the rule. > > Funny enough i wasn't accusing I was proving he was hacking, but apparently both things seems to be the same to anet. Naming and shaming is something they don't want to happen so it's forbidden on these forums. Submitting proof of hacking may or may not "work." Just because you don't see a hacker again doesn't mean they were banned. And, just because you see a hacker again doesn't mean they weren't banned. The biggest issue is that people expect perma bans but Anet doesn't actually issue that many perma bans (and that doesn't stop them from getting new accounts). And there's no system in game for Anet to flag an account as one that was banned for hacking at some point. Anet could add a badge to all characters on an account for a period of time if they determine the person was hacking. That way, even if they let the person back in game other people would have a sense that the hacker had been caught previously and was on Anet's radar. But that's not likely because Anet doesn't see much value in shaming people who cheat. That's a choice I neither agree nor disagree with. 99% of players aren't hacking so I still can enjoy the game.