saerni.2584

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > What would you replace it with? > > Something that fits the "Sniper" identity better than "Lmao I'm invisible" > The Espec is called "Deadeye" not "Ghost" or "Spectre" or "Harry Potter's Cloak of Invisibility" > > I've always felt like Shadow Meld is a very shoddy Elite that seems like it was thrown in so that DEs don't have a lack of Stealth in order to keep using DJ, but as we have it now, DE has indeed no lack of Stealth at all, and Shadow Meld is just more Stealth application, with the added bonus of countering their counter. > > I think what would be better fitting is an empower type skill which helps them prepare for their powerful shot. > I'm thinking of something like : > - 1/4s cast time > - Instantly grants Stealth > - Gives maximum possible Malice > - Cannot swap weapons > - Forced into Kneel and cannot unkneel > - Death Judgement range boosted by 500 range > - Next Death Judgement pierces up to 5 > - Can be cancelled by pressing the Elite again > - Only consumes upon casting Death Judgement, then goes into cooldown > - 60s cooldown competitive, 30s cooldown PvE > > The Deadeye can still Dodge roll in order to extend their Stealth and move, but they will be forced into a kneel for the duration of the buff. > Should be probably strong enough to take out a squishy with 15k HP, but hey, since they are going all in, it might as well do the job, plus there's a cooldown. > > > > > A utility that assumes you are running rifle isn't really a viable design. You could make it a bonus to stealth attack generally—applying stealth and then launching an enhanced stealth attack. But that would still just make it another version of oneshot we had before the nerfs to power creep. So either it would be OP damage or not worth taking (instead people would probably just take daggerstorm for the extra evades and reflects/projectile cleave. The way I see Shadowmeld now is as a defensive tool to quickly reposition for another attack. Removing revealed lets you do this at any time (with limited charges) and lets you chain stealth attacks (less helpful because malice isn't built up if you just Stealth Attack, SM, Stealth Attack. I'd also disagree that the advice is useless to "just use revealed." Deadeye using SM after a revealed + burst (should be used at the same time) is a cooldown being used defensively that could be used offensively. But this is generally how you should fight DE already. When they attack you pressure them back and force them to use SM. Stealth Attacks self reveal after all. Your skills that reveal are bonuses (not the sole way of fighting a person in stealth). Now if you can't pressure the DE that's a separate issue. You need to be able to force them to use stealth defensively, otherwise they will just pick away at you until you die. Counter pressure, not reveal skills, are what you need.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > But if I'm just playing the game in general I don't feel the need to hold back. That isn't cowardice. That's taking an optimized build and using it. > > Is my build unfair? As unfair as I can design it to be. > > Ironic. > Arguing that using the most cowardly and unfair tactic/build is in fact not cowardice. > > Whatever this is going off topic. > Going back to the original topic on DEs : DE can even remove their own counter of getting Revealed. > > That at least has to go, or have the ammo nerfed to 1. > > > > Conclusory statement followed by circular logic. But let's get back on topic. What would you replace it with?

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > You can blame thieves for using stealth to a degree that seems unfair to new players. But the same can be said for many mechanics and builds people use to seem invulnerable or overwhelming. > > At least with other things which seem invincible, yu can teach a newbie, and a newbie can visually identify what is causing them problems. > Alot of threads with goons going "git gud" comments make no effort in explaining how or what to react or do when faced with a Stealth refreshing Thief. > > In fact, even when people genuinely have comments which help, it all comes down to "Yo, yu pretty much have to play the game more" > "Go play thief, find out their weakness after playing it yurself" > "Just LoS DE" > "Use Reveals" (lol this one is the biggest joke considering only a small handful of builds can run Reveals without gimping their entire performance) > "Yu have to develop a feel and muscle memory for it" > > I'm not saying all of these are useless comments, but these are all very unhelpful to someone who literally can't visually identify what is happening. > > Ever seen how a bad thief plays? Or a newbie thief? > Do yu think those guys know the full extent of their kit? > > Newbies are the same : even if they do pick up thief and play it in order to identify their weakness, they have no visual experience of the steps leading to their downfall, and that's why they also play Thief poorly. > > Why? > Thief just spends their time either not being seen, or standing over yur dead body. > > "But Thief also got hit by the damage nerfs" > But Thief can also reset themselves endlessly, resulting in them basically having multiple chances to attack again while yu as the defender of any other profession are limited by yur 20s, 30s, 60s, 90s cooldowns. > > "Haha, if they reset, they lose" > This is just a lie people tell themselves to make themselves feel better. > Wrong, if they reset, yur cooldowns are still ticking, yur basically gonna get clapped with yur back turned because they can gap close to yu and try again while some of yur important cooldowns are still ticking. > > > > To me the biggest newbie mistake is blowing cool downs needlessly. But knowing when and how to rotate your cool downs requires you know your own profession to a degree that newbies generally can't pick up on. Now, I'm all for giving newbies more opportunities to learn. I do duel people often enough to help them work through their timing and figure out what works. It's part of being a more senior player. But if I'm just playing the game in general I don't feel the need to hold back. That isn't cowardice. That's taking an optimized build and using it. To paraphrase a helpful quote "this isn't Saerni's school for newbies." Is my build unfair? As unfair as I can design it to be.

> @"mtnjkbm.7452" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > @"mtnjkbm.7452" said: > > > > @"CharonXeno.4869" said: > > > > > @"Caedmon.6798" said: > > > > > > @"Widmo.3186" said: > > > > > > To fix deadeye you have to delete it from the game. This spec shouldn't exist from the very beginning. Period. > > > > > FYI when i ever had issues facing a certain spec or build i spend Hours dueling it and learning how to counter. If you aint up to that task,you shouldnt be complaining. > > > > > > > > Ok, I'm willing to learn: > > > > How do I counter a (near) perma-stealth Deadeye? What profession and build would you suggest to win against one in, say, at least 2/3rd of all encounters (as you can fine-tune your build specifically against that one type of opponent, while they obviously need to run tradeoffs to deal with different types)? > > > > Mind you, counter/win here means "kill the opponent" and not just "don't get killed myself", so please include details on how to keep the Deadeye from escaping (be it via stealth or other means) when they notice they are outmatched. > > > > > > Play soulbeast and just rapidfire them. > > > Play dragonhunter and trueshot them. > > > Play fresh air ele and combowombo them. > > > Play chrono and do what chrono does to them. > > > Play dagger pistol thief, basi them and kill them out of stealth to assert dominance. Play sword dagger thief and show them whos the boss of ports. > > > Play burn weaver, outsustain easily and pressure them until they run out of cooldowns or ini, then kill or watch them runaway. > > > Play burn tempest, use two signets and watch them panic press all their buttons, keep burning until they eventually die. > > > Play power dps tempest, reflect all their stuff and watch them not having a good time with their class, while your air minions and the fire elite one, keep attacking. > > > Oh or play shortbow power rev and just sevenshot them. Or herold. > > > If u cant oneshot, they probably play condi de with trailblazer runes, just like condi p/d thiefs with their meme scorpionwire. > > > If thats the case, just ignore them, since they probably have some issues in rl and just want to be understood or someone hurt them at some point. > > > > > > > > > > Lol. Condi DE. Actually effective condi DE doesn't run trailblazers. And what are "trailblazer runes?" > > Lol. Edited. i meant stats. Yeh i really dont know what condi de's or pd thiefs are running exactly, in the end.. just tanky and condi, thats it. Who cares? Except it's not trailblazers. Like you can. But malice is built off crits at 100% bonus. So you aren't going to run with no crit in your stats. And who cares? You did by posting about it? But I don't think that many are running P/D or condi DE. I've seen maybe 1 condi DE in 50. And he was running rifle. And maybe 2 P/D core thieves. Rest were standard D/P or Rifle power. So like, it's not common and not sure why you are singling it out like you've even fought one before.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Exitus.3297" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"Mauzi.5892" said: > > > > > @"appelflap.8310" said: > > > > > So basically what you're saying is that infiltrator's arrow is underwhelming now after the patch? A 900 range teleport on a weapon that can be spammed 2 times in a row when full ini, even when no ini you regen 8 ini in 8 secs without the use of other initiative sources. So that's a 900 range teleport with an 8 sec cd in the worst scenario, how is that underwhelming? If this is a problem for thieves then it is a l2p issue, it means you relied on overperforming mechanics in the past. > > > > > > > > It is when a rev can port 600 range and do 6k dmg by the side, which can go through walls. > > > > And it's also a difference how a skill is used. Deathstrike is often used aggressively and applies pressure. Whereas Infiltrator Strike is our means to get away. Which means we decided that the fight is lost for us and we use up all our initiative to do so. > > > > > > > > Why did it get nerfed? Because pepegas cry that "the thief got away" and they didn't "feel good". > > > > > > > > Then pls nerf all other mobility skills as well. Most of the classes outrun or outstealth thievs. > > > > > > > > I agree that the higher cost might be okay for sPvP, because if one team has a thief (that doesn't suck) and the other team doesn't, they can outrotate them and have easier and faster decaps, which makes it "unfair". But even that is a stretch... but I might give it to you... > > > > For WvW the change is just dumb. > > > > > > > > And as other said. Thieves will find another way to replace that or play some other builds or weapon sets. I'm already curious when the crying for another skill will start. > > > > Maybe Sword 2? Shadowstep OP? Dash? Too much dmg? > > > > > > > > > > > > My suggestion to all thief hater. Make one yourself and play. I bet you 1000g your view will change from "nerf OP thief plxxx" to "thief need a buff". > > > > Balance is not about how good or bad you feel for winning or losing an encounter. > > > > > > > > > > hey hey hey, who can " Most of the classes outrun or outstealth thievs. " ? > > > please im really curious. > > > > > > goes back to lurking > > > > In longer, drawn out "races" I can't think of many classes who can keep up with the Thief. In shorter bursts, there are some classes that keep up with the Thief at least for a little while. Even if a class can't keep up with the Thief in terms of mobility 100% and instead just barely trail behind, that doesn't mean the Thief is safe. > > > > Rangers immediately come to mind due to their mobility with the Sword or Greatsword combined with the range on their Longbow. Guardians have a number of blinks that are good for chasing, and if they went DH they also can use Longbow or their Spear class skill to pull the Thief back. Warriors can be deceptively mobile with the Greatsword and Dagger, and they can keep the Thief in a bad spot if they run Magebane Tether. I can list a few more examples, but the point is that in short bursts other classes can keep up with the Thief for a time, at least long enough for it to matter. This is important in sPvP as well because it means these classes can rotate almost as well as the Thief in terms of going from node to node. Keep in mind I'm not saying any of these classes outrun the Thief or even match them as a general rule; I'm saying they can keep up for long enough in some circumstances for it to matter. It is also important to note that these classes, while not being able to keep up in terms of raw mobility, will still have cooldowns to expend after using them because they don't have to manage resources the same way a Thief does. > > can you explain to me how can anything keep up with perma swiftness, triple dash, shortbow/hearthseeker and shadowstep ? > DH spear pull is a meme, you can cancer its pull by shadowstepping or timing sb5, warriors mobility ( dashes ) take way too long, just hold W and use dodge, warrior will be ~300 units away, running slower then you unable to touch you, if you get tethered it means you kitten up already. > Ranger with sicem is the only thing that can actually presure thief, and even then, shadowstep = safe, or just dash dash dash to los safty. I'd say there are a few builds that can keep up. It's very game mode dependent because if you only need a chase a thief a short distance then many more professions can keep up. So sPvP chasing node to node is a lot different than WvW for mobility purposes. In WvW, most just need to get out of combat to swap to mount. Then, assuming you time your dodges right you can WP or drag things out a long time. But let's take the mount out of it. Because obviously mount is unique aspect in WvW vs sPvP and not really on point here. In general, Ranger (various builds) can keep up with thief. So can Warrior. Both are pretty specialized, not all builds can do this and honestly I'm not sure these builds are worth it from a gameplay perspective. Then again, I question thief being built out for max mobility as if that is the only thing you should ever try to do as a thief. Holo is pretty mobile. But loses out to the teleports of Rev and Guard who still have the edge over Engineer despite that profession's access to super speed. Depends on the build but these are all somewhat comparable only because unlike ranger/warrior you don't see people specifically running super mobility.

> @"mtnjkbm.7452" said: > > @"CharonXeno.4869" said: > > > @"Caedmon.6798" said: > > > > @"Widmo.3186" said: > > > > To fix deadeye you have to delete it from the game. This spec shouldn't exist from the very beginning. Period. > > > FYI when i ever had issues facing a certain spec or build i spend Hours dueling it and learning how to counter. If you aint up to that task,you shouldnt be complaining. > > > > Ok, I'm willing to learn: > > How do I counter a (near) perma-stealth Deadeye? What profession and build would you suggest to win against one in, say, at least 2/3rd of all encounters (as you can fine-tune your build specifically against that one type of opponent, while they obviously need to run tradeoffs to deal with different types)? > > Mind you, counter/win here means "kill the opponent" and not just "don't get killed myself", so please include details on how to keep the Deadeye from escaping (be it via stealth or other means) when they notice they are outmatched. > > Play soulbeast and just rapidfire them. > Play dragonhunter and trueshot them. > Play fresh air ele and combowombo them. > Play chrono and do what chrono does to them. > Play dagger pistol thief, basi them and kill them out of stealth to assert dominance. Play sword dagger thief and show them whos the boss of ports. > Play burn weaver, outsustain easily and pressure them until they run out of cooldowns or ini, then kill or watch them runaway. > Play burn tempest, use two signets and watch them panic press all their buttons, keep burning until they eventually die. > Play power dps tempest, reflect all their stuff and watch them not having a good time with their class, while your air minions and the fire elite one, keep attacking. > Oh or play shortbow power rev and just sevenshot them. Or herold. > If u cant oneshot, they probably play condi de with trailblazer runes, just like condi p/d thiefs with their meme scorpionwire. > If thats the case, just ignore them, since they probably have some issues in rl and just want to be understood or someone hurt them at some point. > > Lol. Condi DE. Actually effective condi DE doesn't run trailblazers. And what are "trailblazer runes?"

> @"CharonXeno.4869" said: > > @"Caedmon.6798" said: > > > @"Widmo.3186" said: > > > To fix deadeye you have to delete it from the game. This spec shouldn't exist from the very beginning. Period. > > FYI when i ever had issues facing a certain spec or build i spend Hours dueling it and learning how to counter. If you aint up to that task,you shouldnt be complaining. > > Ok, I'm willing to learn: > How do I counter a (near) perma-stealth Deadeye? What profession and build would you suggest to win against one in, say, at least 2/3rd of all encounters (as you can fine-tune your build specifically against that one type of opponent, while they obviously need to run tradeoffs to deal with different types)? > Mind you, counter/win here means "kill the opponent" and not just "don't get killed myself", so please include details on how to keep the Deadeye from escaping (be it via stealth or other means) when they notice they are outmatched. It really depends a lot on what profession you are running and then also on what kind of build they are running. Some genetic advice that's a bit more specific: DE is vulnerable to reveal + unblockable range damage (or non-projectile based range damage). It can't generally trade shots while under fire. Thief is also vulnerable to CC. If you CC and burst they will use Shadowstep to get away. Don't chase them until after the return circle expires. Now they likely don't have stunbreak and are vulnerable to a stun before their Shadowstep comes off cooldown. Otherwise, don't stay still. Try to line of sight and keep moving. If you are open field try to kite them out and lure them into spending resources chasing you. Then, hit them back while they are low on ultilities and initiative. For a high stealth opponent just remember that most of their skills after bursting on you are for maintaining stealth. Save a cc to stop them from restealthing from certain abilities like Hide in Shadows (longer cast time) or from a smoke field combo (harder but interrupt is possible with good timing/positioning).

> @"aspirine.6852" said: > I would not mind that sniff can detect steath players too. Probably the easiest fix to annoy permastealths in keeps... It already can. It plays the chime for player detected. However, it doesn't show the position of the stealthed person on mini map.

> @"kash.9213" said: > > @"GenerationX.9178" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > @"GenerationX.9178" said: > > > > I think thief should be deleted from the game. Most thieves spam dodge, stealth or port all day long not to mention most skills are instant. > > > > > > That's reasonable, delete a class and playstyle a lot of other players enjoy cuz u dont......gw2 player mentality right here folks, no wonder it's dead:) prob a good thing it is really. > > > > I mianed thief d/d thief for long time. only reason was to counter play all other thieves because no other class could keep up with the speed,dodge and spam of the class. There are very few good thieves. tell you what tell me how you counter an instant cast, unblockable f1 on thief? or how do you dodge 3 shadow shots a thief spams on you? OHH wait you play thief so you can because you can spam dodges and instant ports ! > > In all of that fantasy fight of yours, you didn't once mention what you would do. They hit you with 3 shadow shots and you do nothing back? Other classes can "spam dodges" just as much as thieves and be just as out of dodges, daredevil gets an extra dodge, because it's an elite spec feature. Other classes have ports....what are you on about? That unblockable swipe was chopped down to 600 range. You didn't counter play other thieves by the way, or you'd still be playing your thief if you ever did. He played it back in 2018 and posted about how hard it was to play thief and how he didn't want to keeping playing it because he didn't want to "spam 3" and was being countered by a lot of other professions. Not sure what he plays now. I agree with you but I don't think there's a need to take people like this seriously. It's not a serious suggestion after all.

It's a complex pathing issue. A while back they tried to get community to document the teleport issues in sPvP to get fixes for the sPvP maps, but not a lot of people helped. Originally, they did implement a "fix" that kept your initiative when a skill failed to find a valid path. But that didn't address cases where the path that was found ended up traveling less than 50-100 distance, despite the spot aimed for originally being 900 away. I don't think the game engine can easily test for intended distance versus actual distance otherwise the fix would be pretty easy and implemented long ago. In WvW the size of the maps makes any kind of testing more onerous and many of us who play that mode are used to memorizing the spots that work and the spots that don't. Same applies to sPvP of course at least as far as memorizing spots is concerned. Projectile obstruction is another issue, but no less annoying. I can't tell you why the game designers thought hitting someone in melee through a wall makes sense but an invisible obstruction in mid air blocking projectiles is normal.

I don't know about whether specific players are botting or not, but I did see a number of engineers in the previous matchup that were clearly teleport hacking. This replaces the burn guard who was teleport hacking (but far more obviously) in even earlier matchups. They would die and come back almost instantly. They actually wouldn't always directly teleport into a camp, but they would come back from the wrong direction and way too quickly not to be hacking. For example, in NWC in Alpine BL (home BL for me) I killed this engi and a short time later he came from the north side of the map (first went to NWT Sentry and then came to camp. This was within 1 or 2 minutes after I'd just killed him (again this was my BL so he shouldn't have been able to come from the north that quickly). Pretty sure on those days when he was running (probably a bot) I killed him and his clones (two other engine running same build and sometimes appearing with him) 20-30 times. Not good, clearly hacking, but easy kills at least.

I'm not a huge fan of Marked just because it tends to be used as a "counter" to stealth that is both inadequate and heavy handed at the same time. As people have pointed out, Marked is heavy handed because thief relies on stealth for defensive repositioning and set up stealth attacks, which are often a primary form of doing damage because initiative needs to be saved for (ever more) expensive weapon skills for utility purposes. And other classes have longer duration stealth abilities that get neutered by the extremely short duration of the "allowable" stealth duration under Marked. Marked is also inadequate. That's because Marked doesn't stop players from entering stealth, so there's a false sense of security some players have around a sentry. Then they meet me or some other player who uses stealth and is perfectly aware of the fact they are Marked and doesn't care. Marked in this sense lures people into a false sense of complacency where they feel they like they don't have to try very hard because "stealth is a crutch and I'll win easily if they can't permastealth." My personal opinion about Marked is that Towers that are contested with the Watchtower should track players nearby. I don't think this should apply the Marked debuff. Anti-stealth duration is a powerful and active effect which should be limited to tactics like banners or "chilling fog" style effects for players to actively use. So I'd put it on a banner and force a player to use the skill to maintain the effect. We could also put it onto "Chilling Fog" and make the AoE of that effect bigger, just as a thought. I also think sentries should be upgraded to have more HP like camp supervisors. Sentries should also be given unique skills and one of those should be a reveal or short duration "Marked" application on target or AoE. But, it should be possible to avoid the Marked effect from Sentries. Think of it like the sentry calling for aid but before he can send out the SOS it is possible to stop him. I could say more but this is a thread for Marked and not wvw improvements so I'll leave it there.

> @"Cynz.9437" said: > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > Regarding daredevil. Adding the 3rd dodge was meaningless, even if it was only 2 Dodges, dash would still be crazy good and a lot of people would pick daredevil just for dash. > > I am not so sure, tbh. I was always fan of core d/p, tripple dash (hey, decap bot) is only reason why i still pick DD. If dodges were reduced to 2 i might drop DD altogether. Once again though, i am sure they will murder everything thief (and other classes) have to try to force us to buy xpac. The new elite will be OP compared to the rest of the builds for 6-12 months then the nerf bat will be swung again. "Been there, done that". Just don't feed them more ideas if you want this class be somehow playable til next xpac. They are (and never were) interested in balance. I'd like to suggest in the vein of "Acrobatics" as something that was nerfed by Anet to make way for Daredevil—that we make suggestions for how to revitalize the line without being duplicative or overpowered. I've added a category in the OP. I'll start off by suggesting that Acrobatics could provide boons for evading outside of swiftness. It could also be a line designed around extending the effectiveness of defensive boons (while under protection gain + 200 toughness for example).

> @"appelflap.8310" said: > So basically what you're saying is that infiltrator's arrow is underwhelming now after the patch? A 900 range teleport on a weapon that can be spammed 2 times in a row when full ini, even when no ini you regen 8 ini in 8 secs without the use of other initiative sources. So that's a 900 range teleport with an 8 sec cd in the worst scenario, how is that underwhelming? If this is a problem for thieves then it is a l2p issue, it means you relied on overperforming mechanics in the past. It's one use, then waiting for initiative, then using it a second time. Your pool is 15, so you need to wait a second for the initiative and then you can cast it a second time. You might also use a combo with IA + SA/Signet but that might not be 100% reliable. You misunderstand with the idea that this is an 8 second cool down. That is a shared resource pool with all other weapon skills. So when you reduce that pool by 8 points you can more accurately say you add a cooldown equal to every skills individual point value equal to or below its point value. Of course, that's an oversimplification too because initiative is not a traditional cooldown. But, let's get into the weeds as it were. A player has 15 initiative traited. Every time you use a skill you should think about this calculation: (15 - Initiative Currently Expended + Available Raw Initiative) - Cost of Weapon Skill If the above number is negative you need to wait for initiative. This means, effectively, your weapon skill is on cooldown. Now, because all your skills have different costs some skills will be on cooldown, while others won't. The disadvantage is that, while you can use other less optimal weapon skills, using those skills will serve to increase the cooldown of more optimal skills also. The larger the "Cost of Weapon Skill" is the more likely you will be to find subsequent uses of higher cost skills locked out. Thief doesn't have cool downs so much as thief sometimes has cool downs when initiative is lower than skills require. So when you add 2 initiative to a 6 point skill it isn't the same as adding 2 to a 4 point skill. That's because the higher the cost the greater chance of it locking out a greater number of skills. Not all use cases involve full initiative with lots of available initiative regeneration. If you have 10 initiative and use an 8 initiative skill you are now limited to a 2 initiative skill (meaning practically all skills are on cooldown). Which brings me to the "Effective Universal Cooldown" balancing test. That is: (Cost of Desired Skill - (Available Initiative + Initiative Boosts) < or > (Opportunity Cost of Waiting) In plain language, the time to regenerate initiative to use the skill that is optimal for the situation NOW is weighed against the choice between waiting and spending initiative on another skill. However, that choice is difficult because it means the skill you can't cast NOW also won't be available for both the original time period AND the time period of whatever substitute skill. So the choice is really the question of "how badly do I need to use this skill in the immediate future?" The more you need to use a skill (which for a teleport may be critical because you need to decap or +1 ASAP) the more you effectively can't use other skills because you can't afford to cut into your pool. So "wait for initiative" unlike waiting for cool downs on other professions means auto attacking while you wait. Which is all to say that you can't speak of this as an 8 second cool down unless you ignore the unique initiative system on a fundamental level.

I think the big issue with Anti-Stealth balancing is that they developed the Marked debuff for WvW but then never went back to it as a tool for balancing generally. Now, I consider the time frame for stealth duration under "Marked" to be insanely low (less than even a full duration of a single stack of stealth). However, I did wonder at some point whether a 5 or 6 second stealth limit from Marked would make sense as something attached to player skills. Rather than handing out revealed on skills (which Anet had been doing every so often) they could give people the ability to apply Marked instead. This would be less toxic (revealed locks the player out of core gameplay mechanics after alll) and counter stealth camping, without needing to change how stealth works or how much it can be stacked (long duration stealth should be available assuming you avoid the skills that apply Marked after all).

> @"Lithril Ashwalker.6230" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > I was planning on integrating into the Christmas balance thread. At least as far as the RS suggestions. > > ...dont i know you from somewhere? are you in my guild?! > Hehe. Always good to see you online :) What wvw server did you end up on?

I was planning on integrating into the Christmas balance thread. At least as far as the RS suggestions.

> @"Kachros.4751" said: > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > 2 Initiative more for sb#5 has ruined the class D: ?? I think people are over reacting here. > > its not ruined it, people just are mad that they cant abuse the mobility of thief as hard now... escaping iwth triple shortbow 5 to 2.7k range away was a bit dumb so thankfully its only 1.8k now :) I think people are missing something in your calculations. Before, you could use (full initiative w/ Trickery) IA x2, then wait a moment for regen to let you use it a third time. Now, you use IA once, for 900 range. Then you need to wait for several seconds to use it again. Then you can use it a second time for 1800 total distance. But, because the "wait for more initiative" comes at 900 range and not 1800 range, the thief is a lot more vulnerable than before. Plenty of opponents can gap close that 900 distance or use the wait time to burst them from range (900 is not very far range wise and the skill comes with likely technical failures so the 900 is not always the full 900). Now, I still think SB could be somewhat useful for mobility due to 1) verticality of teleports, 2) bonus travel distance over time (with no enemies lol), 3) other utility through CG and CB. Those are valuable in their own right. But, I do think it's important for people to acknowledge that increasing the skill from 6-8 initiative is a 33% cost increase on a skill that already is more than half of base initiative (which is shared by all weapon skills as a resource). That cost increase is actually significant (because 2 initiative lost is adding an effective 2 second cool down to all skills) and cuts into what kind of defensive kiting potential the weapon had (as well as offensive potential) if the thief uses IA even once. The costs of other skills on the weapon should be adjusted downward (otherwise it becomes a utility weapon that can only do one thing at a time) or the costs of IA should scale (by flip skill or some other design). As a few people have noted, the gameplay this pushes thief towards may not be appreciated by the community.

I'd also like to see some discussion of how limited initiative regeneration bonuses actually are. One thing I'd note is that cool downs on Steal/Swipe/Mark are lower than in the past. This has made initiative regen higher with Trickery than it was in the past. We also have M7, situationally, actually acting as a major initiative regeneration booster. However, that still leaves us with the problem of our initiative pool being a finite resource before regeneration. We only get a set number of attacks before we lose our ability to use our weapon skills until we regenerate our initiative. If you think about it this way: we expect our initiative to allow us consecutive uses of any skill on our weapon bar (assuming we started from full initiative). So, logically, any ability that is so expensive that it can't be double or triple cast should be the ones with an initiative returning mechanic. The conditions for that return can be set to avoid spamming. At least, that's how I would handle things if skills costing 8 initiative becomes a new normal. I'd prefer that not to be the case because of how the initiative pool is essentially a single global cool down. But I could accept it more readily with initiative return built into those expensive skills.

I've added some Shortbow feedback to the OP. I'm not done, obviously there are a lot of good ideas and plenty of options, so please keep adding your feedback.

I've updated OP a bit and will continue to do so. I've woken up from my Turkey slumber lol. There's also a few other threads about issues I've seen pop up. I'll monitor those and add in issues to OP, but best way is still to post in this thread.

> @"Antycypator.9874" said: > First, I would like to see a fix for random Reveal and interrupting DJ for no reason or movement. > Rifle Deadeye is a class that doesn't need any rework, only QoL features, like remove pathing from Shadow Gust, teleport skills and Deadeye's Mark (so can use it e.g. on an Octovine), or maybe add a "cancel deadeye's mark" (some kind of Mercy, but with no refunds. You lose your stolen skill and malice; available for 5 seconds after using Deadeye's Mark). A fix for the LoS issue with Mark is also pretty high on my list. I'd just make two checks, one without LoS for the mark and then a second one with LoS for the stolen skill. It's clunky but there are things like Octovine that consistently bug out because the mark itself never lands even while being able to hit with projectiles.

> @"anduriell.6280" said: > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > I roam and defend bl mostly and rarly see any grps bigger than 3 consisting of thieves and rangers, It's always 6 person grp with 3 support and 3 dps, and guess what? None of them are thieves at all but condi revs, holos, warriors and necros > > > > It dosnt matter what class you play, that doesn't change who you face. > > > > The last time I seen a grp of 5+ thieves was well over a year ago and that was the guild system a.... [sA] > > Agreed, when i say "when roaming you meet mostly thieves and rangers" i mean you meet them as solo players or pairs. There are no ranger or thieves guilds as far as i know, the last one in Vabbi died very long time ago. There's not really a dedicated Thief guild for a specific server and intending to run as a single group in wvw. Official Thief Forum Guild [Teef] is a cross server thief guild with a number of us on multiple worlds as well as in NA/EU. It's hard to recruit enough thieves to use up a guild slot and be on the same server. But, I do try to recruit thieves I see often (bias towards my link but I don't usually PM people who are on other servers so...).

Mostly you can tell by your rating loss what their average was and that usually tells you whether you were outmatched from the start. But composition matters just as much as ranking, so you might be in a blowout because they happened to get a better team for beating your side. Plenty of top rated players aren't mechanically or rotationally worse than their opponents, but end up losing because they couldn't overcome small advantages the other team had with their composition. It's easy to say "lower rating auto lost" but unless the skill gap is massive I don't think it is as strong as getting a good composition. Better players may be able to swap classes to help their teams composition but in the end they are just one or two players and can't change the composition by that much (especially because you can't see what your teammates are running beyond their profession/elite) and one weapon set.

Context please. What class are you on? What is the situation (pvp, wvw) and circumstance (what are you doing in that moment)? Generally, kite and force cool downs. Then burst.