Add an HP bar to fix scourge shades in WvW

[CrimsonIce.6547]

Mesmer clones and phantasms, Ranger spirits and pets, Renegade summons, Necro minions, Engi turrets and probably some I'm missing all have HP bars that prevent their misuse in wvw. Adding a similar HP to scourge shades would easily fix their immortal dominance in wvw and bring back competitive wvw play rather than the current scourge heavy meta. An HP bar would allow for scourges to remain a contributing member of the meta while providing a better game play experience by requiring more skill than just pop as many shades as possible while spamming shade skills.

[Blocki.4931]

Honestly that's probably the only solution without just nerfing the effects until they won't do anything anymore. They should be invulnerable for 1 second after summon though to not just make them disappear without doing anything and you got some balance.

 

 

[Optimator.3589]

You are aware that most any scourge is traited into sand savant and when they "pop as many shades as possible while spamming shade skills", they can only have 1 shade out, right?

 

Also, have you ever actually tried playing a mesmer build that relies on phantasms/clones, a MM necro, or any of the others you've mentioned?

 

If you have, you'll know that said summons abilities get destroyed instantly and are 100% useless in a zerg setting, so unless that's your goal for scourge, you're barking up the wrong tree.

[Israel.7056]

Not a bad idea honestly.

 

Or go the other way and make renegade summons unkillable that'd be fun.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

Adding a HP bar or allowing them to be attacked won't matter. Scourges typically drop the bomb, spam the buttons, then seemingly cause half the players stuck in the bomb to freeze due to the delayed cast time (often killing them).

 

The solution isn't to focus on the shade, players need to focus on classes capable of countering them. Yes that means getting off your precious warrior or FB in favor of a ranger or 2 to stop the scourges dead in their tracks. Yes I know I know.. "what rangers???? yuck"

[Blocki.4931]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> Adding a HP bar or allowing them to be attacked won't matter. Scourges typically drop the bomb, spam the buttons, then seemingly cause half the players stuck in the bomb to freeze due to the delayed cast time (often killing them).

>

> The solution isn't to focus on the shade, players need to focus on classes capable of countering them. Yes that means getting off your precious warrior or FB in favor of a ranger or 2 to stop the scourges dead in their tracks. Yes I know I know.. "what rangers???? yuck"

 

Idk bursting a backline class with 24k HP and permanent barrier is pretty hard at times, especially if you got 30 of them.

 

What would help is that Shades could actually die, an HP bar would do exactly that. Give it a minimum time alive to not make them useless all of a sudden but now they have actual counterplay besides being hardfocused (which is impossible in large scale fights fyi) because a ton of AoEs now actually does something

[Ganathar.4956]

This is a terrible idea, because shades are not an issue at all when it comes to scourges. The main reason why they are so insane in WvW is Sand Savant and the moving AoE effects that they get around themselves. This means that if you try to get close you die, while the zerg has great tools for mitigating projectile-based ranged damage. For some reason people try to argue that rangers are effective, even though they are completely ineffective. The AoE around the scourge also makes the target limit 10 people which is quite insane, considering that you get that both for applying barrier and damaging at the same time.

 

On the other hand, shades themselves are pretty typical ground targeted AoEs. This sort of AoE spam has been in the game for a long time, and good commanders know how to counter it and get through it. The problem with the PoF meta is that you get through the minefield, and then you slam into a second minefield around the zerg that you are attacking. **Shades are fine, nerf sand savant.**

[CrimsonIce.6547]

> @"Optimator.3589" said:

> You are aware that most any scourge is traited into sand savant and when they "pop as many shades as possible while spamming shade skills", they can only have 1 shade out, right?

>

> Also, have you ever actually tried playing a mesmer build that relies on phantasms/clones, a MM necro, or any of the others you've mentioned?

>

> If you have, you'll know that said summons abilities get destroyed instantly and are 100% useless in a zerg setting, so unless that's your goal for scourge, you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

Yes I've played all those classes, in pve, raid, and wvw. I am well aware they are instantly bombed to death in a zerg setting and made completely useless. Don't forget to add the new Renegade summons to that list which actually cost energy to summon before being nuked into oblivion as well as ranger spirits. For classes like mesmer, ranger and mm necro they have the disadvantage of not being able to target where their pet/minion goes, thus they will always be nuked to death. Scourge shades can be placed as well as renegade summons. Thus having them have an hp bar would just require skill in placement. If they get nuked it would be because the scourge was bad and not like it is now where it takes no skill for 30 scourges in a zerg to just run straight into another zerg and decimate them.

[CrimsonIce.6547]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> Adding a HP bar or allowing them to be attacked won't matter. Scourges typically drop the bomb, spam the buttons, then seemingly cause half the players stuck in the bomb to freeze due to the delayed cast time (often killing them).

>

> The solution isn't to focus on the shade, players need to focus on classes capable of countering them. Yes that means getting off your precious warrior or FB in favor of a ranger or 2 to stop the scourges dead in their tracks. Yes I know I know.. "what rangers???? yuck"

 

Problem with ranger is its a projectile class which means that one enemy bubble and your ranger is useless for 10 seconds

[juno.1840]

The single shade from sand savant only lasts 10 seconds before requiring a recast. It's not out for very long regardless.

 

I think you'd achieve your goal a little better by eliminating the effect around the necromancer itself. Instead the F2-F5 effects would only be for shades. Not saying that's a great idea either, but better than giving shades an HP bar since it would remove shades entirely from the game.

 

Placing shades requires more skillful play then pulsing the effect on yourself and just running around.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> Adding a HP bar or allowing them to be attacked won't matter. Scourges typically drop the bomb, spam the buttons, then seemingly cause half the players stuck in the bomb to freeze due to the delayed cast time (often killing them).

>

> The solution isn't to focus on the shade, players need to focus on classes capable of countering them. Yes that means getting off your precious warrior or FB in favor of a ranger or 2 to stop the scourges dead in their tracks. Yes I know I know.. "what rangers???? yuck"

 

I've seen the said a lot, so honest question here: how can a ranger pick out, and specifically target, a scourge out of the mass zerg in front of them?

 

Played a bit of WvW last night on my LB Ranger, and all I saw was a mass of bodies with red carrots over their heads, and I couldn't tell what was a necromancer or who was a FB. Just a writhing mass of shapes being preceded by a landscape of red circles. I remember thinking at that moment "people say Rangers are the counter to this". I should have taken a SS for context.

 

I couldn't tell who was a scourge.

I couldn't even reliably click on a specific players anyways.

 

So how exactly is a Ranger supposed to be the solution here?

 

And if your response is going to be: "git gud", then please show some respect and don't bother replying.

 

Truth is, the scourge doesn't have to 'git gud' to kill me or my zerg, so I fail to see why I should have to 'git gud' to counter them. That alone suggests the massive imbalance at play here.

 

[Spurnshadow.3678]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > Adding a HP bar or allowing them to be attacked won't matter. Scourges typically drop the bomb, spam the buttons, then seemingly cause half the players stuck in the bomb to freeze due to the delayed cast time (often killing them).

> >

> > The solution isn't to focus on the shade, players need to focus on classes capable of countering them. Yes that means getting off your precious warrior or FB in favor of a ranger or 2 to stop the scourges dead in their tracks. Yes I know I know.. "what rangers???? yuck"

>

> I've seen the said a lot, so honest question here: how can a ranger pick out, and specifically target, a scourge out of the mass zerg in front of them?

>

> Played a bit of WvW last night on my LB Ranger, and all I saw was a mass of bodies with red carrots over their heads, and I couldn't tell what was a necromancer or who was a FB. Just a writhing mass of shapes being preceded by a landscape of red circles. I remember thinking at that moment "people say Rangers are the counter to this". I should have taken a SS for context.

>

> I couldn't tell who was a scourge.

> I couldn't even reliably click on a specific players anyways.

>

> So how exactly is a Ranger supposed to be the solution here?

>

> And if your response is going to be: "git gud", then please show some respect and don't bother replying.

>

> Truth is, the scourge doesn't have to 'git gud' to kill me or my zerg, so I fail to see why I should have to 'git gud' to counter them. That alone suggests the massive imbalance at play here.

>

 

Hit the tab button a couple times.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

The biggest issue is that the necro can hit 10 people because he acts as a shade. It should be changed to either / or. If a shade is out, shade skills activate at the shade. If there's no shade out, then shade skills act on the necro.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Spurnshadow.3678" said:

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > > Adding a HP bar or allowing them to be attacked won't matter. Scourges typically drop the bomb, spam the buttons, then seemingly cause half the players stuck in the bomb to freeze due to the delayed cast time (often killing them).

> > >

> > > The solution isn't to focus on the shade, players need to focus on classes capable of countering them. Yes that means getting off your precious warrior or FB in favor of a ranger or 2 to stop the scourges dead in their tracks. Yes I know I know.. "what rangers???? yuck"

> >

> > I've seen the said a lot, so honest question here: how can a ranger pick out, and specifically target, a scourge out of the mass zerg in front of them?

> >

> > Played a bit of WvW last night on my LB Ranger, and all I saw was a mass of bodies with red carrots over their heads, and I couldn't tell what was a necromancer or who was a FB. Just a writhing mass of shapes being preceded by a landscape of red circles. I remember thinking at that moment "people say Rangers are the counter to this". I should have taken a SS for context.

> >

> > I couldn't tell who was a scourge.

> > I couldn't even reliably click on a specific players anyways.

> >

> > So how exactly is a Ranger supposed to be the solution here?

> >

> > And if your response is going to be: "git gud", then please show some respect and don't bother replying.

> >

> > Truth is, the scourge doesn't have to 'git gud' to kill me or my zerg, so I fail to see why I should have to 'git gud' to counter them. That alone suggests the massive imbalance at play here.

> >

>

> Hit the tab button a couple times.

 

That's all I can do now...but I'm just to hit tab until I see the portrait of a Necro, and hope that they are actually in range, all the while avoiding the circles of death that are approaching AND their team mates? Maybe I'm genuinely tab targeting wrong here: is there some special setting I should be using?

 

 

[Israel.7056]

> @"Spurnshadow.3678" said:

> The biggest issue is that the necro can hit 10 people because he acts as a shade. It should be changed to either / or. If a shade is out, shade skills activate at the shade. If there's no shade out, then shade skills act on the necro.

 

Probably still get wrecked in melee if there's enough scourges in one place though.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"Spurnshadow.3678" said:

> > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > > > Adding a HP bar or allowing them to be attacked won't matter. Scourges typically drop the bomb, spam the buttons, then seemingly cause half the players stuck in the bomb to freeze due to the delayed cast time (often killing them).

> > > >

> > > > The solution isn't to focus on the shade, players need to focus on classes capable of countering them. Yes that means getting off your precious warrior or FB in favor of a ranger or 2 to stop the scourges dead in their tracks. Yes I know I know.. "what rangers???? yuck"

> > >

> > > I've seen the said a lot, so honest question here: how can a ranger pick out, and specifically target, a scourge out of the mass zerg in front of them?

> > >

> > > Played a bit of WvW last night on my LB Ranger, and all I saw was a mass of bodies with red carrots over their heads, and I couldn't tell what was a necromancer or who was a FB. Just a writhing mass of shapes being preceded by a landscape of red circles. I remember thinking at that moment "people say Rangers are the counter to this". I should have taken a SS for context.

> > >

> > > I couldn't tell who was a scourge.

> > > I couldn't even reliably click on a specific players anyways.

> > >

> > > So how exactly is a Ranger supposed to be the solution here?

> > >

> > > And if your response is going to be: "git gud", then please show some respect and don't bother replying.

> > >

> > > Truth is, the scourge doesn't have to 'git gud' to kill me or my zerg, so I fail to see why I should have to 'git gud' to counter them. That alone suggests the massive imbalance at play here.

> > >

> >

> > Hit the tab button a couple times.

>

> That's all I can do now...but I'm just to hit tab until I see the portrait of a Necro, and hope that they are actually in range, all the while avoiding the circles of death that are approaching AND their team mates? Maybe I'm genuinely tab targeting wrong here: is there some special setting I should be using?

>

>

 

Tab targeting is always going to prioritize whoever is closest to you then go to the next closest. The issue you are having with regards to trying to pick things off are the same issue with playing a glass ele. You can't get too close as you will get run over. If you are having issues at 1500 range, then you are positioning poorly. Also, don't bother targeting someone in the zerg, as you won't do much damage and they will get healed very quickly. As a pick class, which is what you're doing, you need to go after stranglers and downed players. They will be away from the zerg, able to take more damage, and you won't be close to the zerg to get run over. You can't expect to run with the zerg if you're doing this gameplay, and you shouldn't because you will need to be off tag most of the time, so your slot should go to someone else if the squad is near full. If not, the squad will most likely put you in a pick group expecting you to be off tag.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Optimator.3589" said:

> You are aware that most any scourge is traited into sand savant and when they "pop as many shades as possible while spamming shade skills", they can only have 1 shade out, right?

>

> Also, have you ever actually tried playing a mesmer build that relies on phantasms/clones, a MM necro, or any of the others you've mentioned?

>

> If you have, you'll know that said summons abilities get destroyed instantly and are 100% useless in a zerg setting, so unless that's your goal for scourge, you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

How do you think the other pet classes feel right now?

 

They need to make all pet classes have a means of non hp pets that do passive effect at both the players feet and the pet.

 

I am still of the mind the best way to balance scourge shades is to add in an upkeep cost for having them out putting them on in line with other necro classes. As the same time the effect at the scorge feet should stay 3 targets and base aoe size.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"Spurnshadow.3678" said:

> > The biggest issue is that the necro can hit 10 people because he acts as a shade. It should be changed to either / or. If a shade is out, shade skills activate at the shade. If there's no shade out, then shade skills act on the necro.

>

> Probably still get wrecked in melee if there's enough scourges in one place though.

 

But at least then it would be balanced to 5 person cap on damage vs. 5 person cap on cleanses / boons / heals as opposed to the current, one-sided situation of 10 person cap on damage with scourges vs. the 5 person cap on cleanses / boons / heals.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Spurnshadow.3678" said:

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > @"Spurnshadow.3678" said:

> > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > > > > Adding a HP bar or allowing them to be attacked won't matter. Scourges typically drop the bomb, spam the buttons, then seemingly cause half the players stuck in the bomb to freeze due to the delayed cast time (often killing them).

> > > > >

> > > > > The solution isn't to focus on the shade, players need to focus on classes capable of countering them. Yes that means getting off your precious warrior or FB in favor of a ranger or 2 to stop the scourges dead in their tracks. Yes I know I know.. "what rangers???? yuck"

> > > >

> > > > I've seen the said a lot, so honest question here: how can a ranger pick out, and specifically target, a scourge out of the mass zerg in front of them?

> > > >

> > > > Played a bit of WvW last night on my LB Ranger, and all I saw was a mass of bodies with red carrots over their heads, and I couldn't tell what was a necromancer or who was a FB. Just a writhing mass of shapes being preceded by a landscape of red circles. I remember thinking at that moment "people say Rangers are the counter to this". I should have taken a SS for context.

> > > >

> > > > I couldn't tell who was a scourge.

> > > > I couldn't even reliably click on a specific players anyways.

> > > >

> > > > So how exactly is a Ranger supposed to be the solution here?

> > > >

> > > > And if your response is going to be: "git gud", then please show some respect and don't bother replying.

> > > >

> > > > Truth is, the scourge doesn't have to 'git gud' to kill me or my zerg, so I fail to see why I should have to 'git gud' to counter them. That alone suggests the massive imbalance at play here.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Hit the tab button a couple times.

> >

> > That's all I can do now...but I'm just to hit tab until I see the portrait of a Necro, and hope that they are actually in range, all the while avoiding the circles of death that are approaching AND their team mates? Maybe I'm genuinely tab targeting wrong here: is there some special setting I should be using?

> >

> >

>

> Tab targeting is always going to prioritize whoever is closest to you then go to the next closest. The issue you are having with regards to trying to pick things off are the same issue with playing a glass ele. You can't get too close as you will get run over. If you are having issues at 1500 range, then you are positioning poorly. Also, don't bother targeting someone in the zerg, as you won't do much damage and they will get healed very quickly. As a pick class, which is what you're doing, you need to go after stranglers and downed players. They will be away from the zerg, able to take more damage, and you won't be close to the zerg to get run over. You can't expect to run with the zerg if you're doing this gameplay, and you shouldn't because you will need to be off tag most of the time, so your slot should go to someone else if the squad is near full. If not, the squad will most likely put you in a pick group expecting you to be off tag.

 

For the record, I'm not playing full glass cannon, I'm running a mix of Zerker gear with Soldiers trinkets and defensive runes.

 

_"As a pick class, which is what you're doing, you need to go after stranglers and downed players."_

 

OK, that is exactly what I'm doing right now. But how does that help counter the scourge, who is in the mix of the group?

 

This is where I am confused. Rangers are said to be a counter to zerg scourge, but a Ranger can't play in a zerg, or even be close to one? The downed players or stagglers aren't the ones nuking my team into ash...

[Spurnshadow.3678]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"Spurnshadow.3678" said:

> > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > @"Spurnshadow.3678" said:

> > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > > > > > Adding a HP bar or allowing them to be attacked won't matter. Scourges typically drop the bomb, spam the buttons, then seemingly cause half the players stuck in the bomb to freeze due to the delayed cast time (often killing them).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The solution isn't to focus on the shade, players need to focus on classes capable of countering them. Yes that means getting off your precious warrior or FB in favor of a ranger or 2 to stop the scourges dead in their tracks. Yes I know I know.. "what rangers???? yuck"

> > > > >

> > > > > I've seen the said a lot, so honest question here: how can a ranger pick out, and specifically target, a scourge out of the mass zerg in front of them?

> > > > >

> > > > > Played a bit of WvW last night on my LB Ranger, and all I saw was a mass of bodies with red carrots over their heads, and I couldn't tell what was a necromancer or who was a FB. Just a writhing mass of shapes being preceded by a landscape of red circles. I remember thinking at that moment "people say Rangers are the counter to this". I should have taken a SS for context.

> > > > >

> > > > > I couldn't tell who was a scourge.

> > > > > I couldn't even reliably click on a specific players anyways.

> > > > >

> > > > > So how exactly is a Ranger supposed to be the solution here?

> > > > >

> > > > > And if your response is going to be: "git gud", then please show some respect and don't bother replying.

> > > > >

> > > > > Truth is, the scourge doesn't have to 'git gud' to kill me or my zerg, so I fail to see why I should have to 'git gud' to counter them. That alone suggests the massive imbalance at play here.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hit the tab button a couple times.

> > >

> > > That's all I can do now...but I'm just to hit tab until I see the portrait of a Necro, and hope that they are actually in range, all the while avoiding the circles of death that are approaching AND their team mates? Maybe I'm genuinely tab targeting wrong here: is there some special setting I should be using?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Tab targeting is always going to prioritize whoever is closest to you then go to the next closest. The issue you are having with regards to trying to pick things off are the same issue with playing a glass ele. You can't get too close as you will get run over. If you are having issues at 1500 range, then you are positioning poorly. Also, don't bother targeting someone in the zerg, as you won't do much damage and they will get healed very quickly. As a pick class, which is what you're doing, you need to go after stranglers and downed players. They will be away from the zerg, able to take more damage, and you won't be close to the zerg to get run over. You can't expect to run with the zerg if you're doing this gameplay, and you shouldn't because you will need to be off tag most of the time, so your slot should go to someone else if the squad is near full. If not, the squad will most likely put you in a pick group expecting you to be off tag.

>

> For the record, I'm not playing full glass cannon, I'm running a mix of Zerker gear with Soldiers trinkets and defensive runes.

>

> _"As a pick class, which is what you're doing, you need to go after stranglers and downed players."_

>

> OK, that is exactly what I'm doing right now. But how does that help counter the scourge, who is in the mix of the group?

>

> This is where I am confused. Rangers are said to be a counter to zerg scourge, but a Ranger can't play in a zerg, or even be close to one? The downed players or stagglers aren't the ones nuking my team into ash...

 

Rangers don't counter scourge in groups. Those people don't know what they're talking about. Either they're just being argumentative or they're trying to justify having a ranger in a group. There is no justification anymore. There barely was one to begin with. Druids made great healers, but firebrands have overtaken that role. That, or they are talking about roaming (5 or less) where LB rangers are a hard counter to scourge. Unfortunately, people talk here all the time as if solo roaming is the only perspective to WvW, therefore all their statements are biased towards that. You just have to learn that bias. IMO, WvW is defaulted to large group combat when speaking of anything and roaming is the exception to the rule.

 

There is no hard counter to any class in large group combat. Large group combat (if relatively even numbers) is the culmination of all classes and what that groups meta is. Large group combat is much more about timing, positioning, commander skill, everyone having the right builds (stats, traits, utilities, weapons) to support the group meta, the average skill of every player in the group.

 

Scourges, if playing properly, are running close to the tag so they can get might, stab, resistance, cleanses, heals, etc. So, you're probably not gonna pew pew them. But you can get the baddies that are to scared to stay on tag. Some groups are running a lot of glass eles. They have 12-13K health with no toughness, so they can't stay on tag.

You can just ignore scourges and go for glass eles that can't stay on tag, or other rangers / thieves. If you really want to stay on tag, and be in the zerg, roll a class that contributes to the whole: Guardian, warrior, mesmer, revenant, and yes, scourge.

 

Typically, in todays meta, a heavy scourge group is countered by having enough guards and revs to spam resistance, cleanses, heals, dwarf, etc. so they can focus on what they want and not get melted if hit or when trying to push in. Also, todays WvW is whoever gets the first hit usually wins, emphasis on the usually. Before I get a lot of flack for these statements, I'm talking generalities.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Spurnshadow.3678" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Spurnshadow.3678" said:

> > > The biggest issue is that the necro can hit 10 people because he acts as a shade. It should be changed to either / or. If a shade is out, shade skills activate at the shade. If there's no shade out, then shade skills act on the necro.

> >

> > Probably still get wrecked in melee if there's enough scourges in one place though.

>

> But at least then it would be balanced to 5 person cap on damage vs. 5 person cap on cleanses / boons / heals as opposed to the current, one-sided situation of 10 person cap on damage with scourges vs. the 5 person cap on cleanses / boons / heals.

 

That's true but I think they'd still be able to melt your face in melee range. Maybe I'm wrong though I'd have to see it in action.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Spurnshadow.3678" said:

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > @"Spurnshadow.3678" said:

> > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > > @"Spurnshadow.3678" said:

> > > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > > > > > > Adding a HP bar or allowing them to be attacked won't matter. Scourges typically drop the bomb, spam the buttons, then seemingly cause half the players stuck in the bomb to freeze due to the delayed cast time (often killing them).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The solution isn't to focus on the shade, players need to focus on classes capable of countering them. Yes that means getting off your precious warrior or FB in favor of a ranger or 2 to stop the scourges dead in their tracks. Yes I know I know.. "what rangers???? yuck"

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I've seen the said a lot, so honest question here: how can a ranger pick out, and specifically target, a scourge out of the mass zerg in front of them?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Played a bit of WvW last night on my LB Ranger, and all I saw was a mass of bodies with red carrots over their heads, and I couldn't tell what was a necromancer or who was a FB. Just a writhing mass of shapes being preceded by a landscape of red circles. I remember thinking at that moment "people say Rangers are the counter to this". I should have taken a SS for context.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I couldn't tell who was a scourge.

> > > > > > I couldn't even reliably click on a specific players anyways.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So how exactly is a Ranger supposed to be the solution here?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And if your response is going to be: "git gud", then please show some respect and don't bother replying.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Truth is, the scourge doesn't have to 'git gud' to kill me or my zerg, so I fail to see why I should have to 'git gud' to counter them. That alone suggests the massive imbalance at play here.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Hit the tab button a couple times.

> > > >

> > > > That's all I can do now...but I'm just to hit tab until I see the portrait of a Necro, and hope that they are actually in range, all the while avoiding the circles of death that are approaching AND their team mates? Maybe I'm genuinely tab targeting wrong here: is there some special setting I should be using?

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Tab targeting is always going to prioritize whoever is closest to you then go to the next closest. The issue you are having with regards to trying to pick things off are the same issue with playing a glass ele. You can't get too close as you will get run over. If you are having issues at 1500 range, then you are positioning poorly. Also, don't bother targeting someone in the zerg, as you won't do much damage and they will get healed very quickly. As a pick class, which is what you're doing, you need to go after stranglers and downed players. They will be away from the zerg, able to take more damage, and you won't be close to the zerg to get run over. You can't expect to run with the zerg if you're doing this gameplay, and you shouldn't because you will need to be off tag most of the time, so your slot should go to someone else if the squad is near full. If not, the squad will most likely put you in a pick group expecting you to be off tag.

> >

> > For the record, I'm not playing full glass cannon, I'm running a mix of Zerker gear with Soldiers trinkets and defensive runes.

> >

> > _"As a pick class, which is what you're doing, you need to go after stranglers and downed players."_

> >

> > OK, that is exactly what I'm doing right now. But how does that help counter the scourge, who is in the mix of the group?

> >

> > This is where I am confused. Rangers are said to be a counter to zerg scourge, but a Ranger can't play in a zerg, or even be close to one? The downed players or stagglers aren't the ones nuking my team into ash...

>

> Rangers don't counter scourge in groups. Those people don't know what they're talking about. Either they're just being argumentative or they're trying to justify having a ranger in a group. There is no justification anymore. There barely was one to begin with. Druids made great healers, but firebrands have overtaken that role. That, or they are talking about roaming (5 or less) where LB rangers are a hard counter to scourge. Unfortunately, people talk here all the time as if solo roaming is the only perspective to WvW, therefore all their statements are biased towards that. You just have to learn that bias. IMO, WvW is defaulted to large group combat when speaking of anything and roaming is the exception to the rule.

>

> There is no hard counter to any class in large group combat. Large group combat (if relatively even numbers) is the culmination of all classes and what that groups meta is. Large group combat is much more about timing, positioning, commander skill, everyone having the right builds (stats, traits, utilities, weapons) to support the group meta, the average skill of every player in the group.

>

> Scourges, if playing properly, are running close to the tag so they can get might, stab, resistance, cleanses, heals, etc. So, you're probably not gonna pew pew them. But you can get the baddies that are to scared to stay on tag. Some groups are running a lot of glass eles. They have 12-13K health with no toughness, so they can't stay on tag.

> You can just ignore scourges and go for glass eles that can't stay on tag, or other rangers / thieves. If you really want to stay on tag, and be in the zerg, roll a class that contributes to the whole: Guardian, warrior, mesmer, revenant, and yes, scourge.

>

> Typically, in todays meta, a heavy scourge group is countered by having enough guards and revs to spam resistance, cleanses, heals, dwarf, etc. so they can focus on what they want and not get melted if hit or when trying to push in. Also, todays WvW is whoever gets the first hit usually wins, emphasis on the usually. Before I get a lot of flack for these statements, I'm talking generalities.

 

Thank you for that - very informative!