Introducing Structured Guild vs Guild

[expandas.7051]

# Introduction

Structured Guild vs Guild is an exciting new game mode that pits teams of eight players against each other in a structured environment. It occupies a spot between the stringent dueling and rotational rigors of sPvP and the raw numerical and strategic considerations of WvW. sGvG emphasizes small group combat and how well players work to complement each other. Successful teams will not necessarily be the most skilled but rather those with great teamwork.

 

# Format

* **Hosted in Custom Arenas** - Consistent environment, accessible to all players in a region regardless of server, low barrier to entry for new players and cross-region play

* **8v8 Team-Based Combat** - Pays homage to Guild Wars 1 GvG, emphasizes small group combat and tactics, improved profession, build, and role diversity

* **Revenge of the Capricorn** - Large open areas for maneuvering, minimal map mechanics, non-linear map design

* **Best of 7 Rounds** - Long enough to be decisive, short enough to be accessible

* **Eliminate opposing team / reach 100 points** - Simple victory conditions, discourages camping

* **No Respawns** - Promotes build diversity and active gameplay.

 

# Why sGvG?

By adapting the community supported Guild vs Guild game mode to PvP, we are able to address numerous pain points of prior systems.

* **High Barrier to Entry** - It's difficult to get involved! Whether you're a new player just getting started or an experienced veteran from another region, we can't ignore the gear requirements. Players are expected to be running fully ascended gear with optimal stat spreads and specific runes and sigils that can cost hundreds, even thousands of gold. Even leveling up a character and fully unlocking its elite specialization can be a sore point for many. This doesn't include finding a guild to play with, transferring to the correct server to play with them, and learning the ropes of organized combat. The use of Custom Arenas addresses these problems, allowing players to easily hop in, select a build and amulet, and jump into the action. PvP is also accessible across entire regions, so who you play with is no longer limited by servers.

* **Difficulty with Logistics** - Currently teams must be located in the same matchup to compete against each other in World vs World. Rounds are susceptible to interference by spectators, presence of teams often being pain points for existing players on certain maps, as well as faction-specific buffs. Fighting in Edge of the Mists also has difficulties with popular arena locations near the center of the map. The user experience of organizing matches in guild hall arenas is even worse, requiring tedious micromanagement of players to enter the same instance. Matches are often delayed and tournaments are near-impossible to execute fluidly. The use of Custom Arenas solves these problems, allowing a maximum of 20 players to participate, admin, and spectate rounds. Teams can be quickly and easily sorted

* **Difficult to Spectate** - Anyone that has seen a Guild vs Guild match on Twitch will have noticed how convoluted the gameplay appears. Even at the very minimum of graphics settings there is tremendous visual clutter. The UI settings of many streamers is also unconducive to viewers, with FoV and camera angles set so far out so that the actual combat only takes up a sixth of the screen! The best content from these matches often arrives days later when individually recorded player PoVs are uploaded to YouTube. Here, skill usage and team strategy is clearly visible the viewer. The use of Custom arenas solves these problems, giving stream viewers the best view possible and ability to quickly switch to hotspots around the map.

 

# Carrots

* **Having fun**

* Bragging rights for your friends and family, honor for your guild or WvW server community

* **Compete across the pond** without the time investment of re-gearing everything

* Competitor prize pool - 100g to 1st place team, 120g to 2nd place, 140g to 3rd, **and so on up for up to eight teams**

* Potential Twitch giveaways for stream viewers

 

# Pain Points

* **PvP Rulesets** - There are some mechanics, skills, and utilities that have different behaviors in PvP as opposed to WvW (and PvE guild halls), but I don't think this is a deal breaker.

* **PvP Amulets** - Hands are tied here. It's possible there might be too much spike damage, i.e., support specs are unviable, but I'm hoping the No Respawns rule curtails it.

* **Map Mechanics** - On Revenge of the Capricorn the map mechanic doesn't appear until three minutes into the round, and if captured grants a modest 25 points. Three minutes is a generous amount of time for a team to gain a decisive advantage in a round.

* **GvG is dead/toxic/kitten** - Regardless of how you feel about the topic or if you have been wronged in the past, **this is an opportunity for everyone to turn over a new leaf**. New expansion, new opportunities. I will do everything in my ability to make sure there is good clean fun but I'm pleading with you to give the community the benefit of the doubt.

 

# Call to Action

If you made it this far and want to help bring this idea into fruition, please discuss and share this with your friends, guildies, and servermates! I am working on putting together a show-match for **this upcoming weekend (September 16-17)** to demonstrate sGvG as a concept. We'll need plenty of volunteers and mentors to get things rolling. If you are interested in submitting a team, participating as a free agent, streaming the event, donating to the prize pool, or even helping to organize, please get in touch via Discord or email! Thank you.

 

Signup form: https://goo.gl/forms/mQf8TEU7KXpt90r42

Event Discord: https://discord.gg/VdpMSjq

 

expandas#1097

expandas@gmail.com

 

# About Me

My name is Expandas. I've been a mentor and advocate of competitive play for Guild Wars 2 and the Battlefield franchise. I am a Mesmer main and enjoy all facets of the game, though my passion is in World vs World. Over the years I've participated in everything from borderland defense to pugmanding, solo and small group roaming to GvG, acted as server liaison and even [boosted gem card sales](

). More recently I've been playing and theory crafting with [[boRP]](http://www.borpguild.com/), holding bi-monthly workshops for new players interested in learning GvG, and mentoring aspiring Mesmers on [how to hold their own](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Chronomancer_-_Support_Chrono) in WvW. I genuinely [support the game mode](https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/members/expandas-7051/show_highly_rated) and hope the developers improve the intrinsic gameplay experience. You can find my past guides and videos on YouTube [here](https://www.youtube.com/expandas/).

[ibkillin.9610]

I don't even understand why they even call it Guild Wars 2 since there isn't anything really good left over from the first 1 (duo spec, 100s of skills, GvG) etc. They should have just called it Chronicles of Tyria.

[PsyK.5087]

At what cadence will these run?

 

Also how do you plan to handle moderation?

[MrDark.8632]

> @expandas.7051 said:

> * Competitor prize pool - 100g to 1st place team, 120g to 2nd place, 140g to 3rd, **and so on up for up to eight teams**

You might want to proof read the gold prizes. :p

 

 

 

[steelrage.2904]

thanks for the easy gold farm LUL

[Aeroxe.8140]

> @expandas.7051 said:

> It occupies a spot between the stringent dueling and rotational rigors of sPvP and the raw numerical and strategic considerations of WvW. sGvG emphasizes small group combat and how well players work to complement each other. Successful teams will not necessarily be the most skilled but rather those with great teamwork.

 

...implies that numerical and strategic considerations are more prevalent in WvW than sPvP. wut

 

[expandas.7051]

> @PsyK.5087 said:

> At what cadence will these run?

>

> Also how do you plan to handle moderation?

 

Going to run these weekly on Saturdays for both EU and NA.

 

Moderation will be tricky. I'll be coordinating things in the short term.

 

 

> @MrDark.8632 said:

> > @expandas.7051 said:

> > * Competitor prize pool - 100g to 1st place team, 120g to 2nd place, 140g to 3rd, **and so on up for up to eight teams**

> You might want to proof read the gold prizes. :p

 

You read correctly! If it gets more people involved, why not!

 

 

> @Aeroxe.8140 said:

> > @expandas.7051 said:

> > It occupies a spot between the stringent dueling and rotational rigors of sPvP and the raw numerical and strategic considerations of WvW. sGvG emphasizes small group combat and how well players work to complement each other. Successful teams will not necessarily be the most skilled but rather those with great teamwork.

>

> ...implies that numerical and strategic considerations are more prevalent in WvW than sPvP. wut

 

It was a polite way of saying you're not going to be zerged down with 50 dudes :)

[alemfi.5107]

> @expandas.7051 said:

> > @PsyK.5087 said:

> > At what cadence will these run?

> >

> > Also how do you plan to handle moderation?

>

> Going to run these weekly on Saturdays for both EU and NA.

>

> Moderation will be tricky. I'll be coordinating things in the short term.

>

>

> > @MrDark.8632 said:

> > > @expandas.7051 said:

> > > * Competitor prize pool - 100g to 1st place team, 120g to 2nd place, 140g to 3rd, **and so on up for up to eight teams**

> > You might want to proof read the gold prizes. :p

>

> You read correctly! If it gets more people involved, why not!

>

>

> > @Aeroxe.8140 said:

> > > @expandas.7051 said:

> > > It occupies a spot between the stringent dueling and rotational rigors of sPvP and the raw numerical and strategic considerations of WvW. sGvG emphasizes small group combat and how well players work to complement each other. Successful teams will not necessarily be the most skilled but rather those with great teamwork.

> >

> > ...implies that numerical and strategic considerations are more prevalent in WvW than sPvP. wut

>

> It was a polite way of saying you're not going to be zerged down with 50 dudes :)

 

I think he's saying it sounds like you are offering first place the smallest prize with increasing prizes for worse performance.

[expandas.7051]

That's correct. In fact for this first show-match I'll give every volunteer that signs up and stays for the whole thing 50 gold.

[expandas.7051]

It's really annoying not being able to edit comments!

First event will be held this Saturday at 4PM Pacific / 7PM Eastern on the North American servers.

Signup form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1_7cfj2tBi4ka-0Q29YQdhnY9_eVtKO4CxlhP-MGvA1c/viewform

Eligible participants will receive 50g for their time.

[Honest John.4673]

> @steelrage.2904 said:

> thanks for the easy gold farm LUL

 

Do you even _have_ 7 other friends to do this with?

[sephiroth.4217]

Where do you sign up for these Guild V Guilds?

I don't have a team but would like to train with one again, it's been a few years since I was apart of that scene.

 

[Rym.1469]

Sounds fun, will watch it.

 

With all 3 points it may be just a normal spvp match, but more chaotic. Have you considered something like Foefire, but only Mid point is allowed to be capped & lord mechanics?

[expandas.7051]

Start time is being rolled back one hour to 3PM Pacific / 6PM Eastern to work better with EU players. I need someone to stream this event. Any takers?

I am also **doubling the gold to 100g per player** for signing up and participating.

 

> @sephiroth.4217 said:

> Where do you sign up for these Guild V Guilds?

> I don't have a team but would like to train with one again, it's been a few years since I was apart of that scene.

>

 

Once again the signup form is located here: https://goo.gl/forms/mQf8TEU7KXpt90r42

If you're asking about the larger 15v15 GvG scene your best bet is to visit gw2wvw.net and post on the recruitment threads there.

 

> @Rym.1469 said:

> Sounds fun, will watch it.

>

> With all 3 points it may be just a normal spvp match, but more chaotic. Have you considered something like Foefire, but only Mid point is allowed to be capped & lord mechanics?

 

I considered Forefire but I felt that map design was too linear and thus only had one dominant strategy- camp mid. The cap zones on Capricorn are more equidistant to one another and the hope is that allows for more maneuvering and gameplay variety.

[expandas.7051]

Updated signup link for those who are having trouble: https://goo.gl/forms/mQf8TEU7KXpt90r42

[Stand The Wall.6987]

best of luck to you!

[Tanuk.7961]

This seems like it could be fun. I'll have to talk to my guildmates and see what they think about it.

[expandas.7051]

**We're up to 13 signups, only three more to go!**

 

I'd like to share one comment someone shared on the form:

 

_"Solo player who just started playing GW2 about 3 months ago. Not part of any guilds and am participating since 8v8 sounds fun and also since the prize money can help me kickstart my crafting. Is PvP skill or specific build needed for my char or can i just play for the fun of it?(So far I have just as many wins as losses in PvP)"_

 

Skill will always be helpful, no matter what game you play or game mode you play in. For this first match though it's really going to be about having fun and finding what works/doesn't work. Although there are existing "meta" builds for the pvp and wvw scenes, this is a little bit of a hybrid. I'm hoping there will be new builds as people experiment and see what works with sGvG.

 

[expandas.7051]

Hey guys. The first show match will start up in TWO hours from this post. We've got 1 team and 30 individual signups on the board, should be interesting!

 

If you are participating, please join this Discord server so I can organize you into teams: https://discord.gg/VdpMSjq

 

Gregor will be streaming the event with Roy casting. You can find his stream here:

 

 

[messiah.1908]

gvg = power versus power. bit boring if you dont have support. gvg whidch used to be in wvw was more fun with backline classes , melee classes doing tactics etc...

[expandas.7051]

Thank you to everyone that attended the show match today. I was blown away by the openness and support. This event wouldn't have been possible without all of you coming together. I am tentatively looking to schedule another sGvG event in two weeks on September 30th. Stay tuned for details, or even better, join the conversation on the Discord: https://discord.gg/VdpMSjq

[Jinks.2057]

Needs to be 10v10 and a new map dedicated to this game mode.

 

I applaud the effort, and I hope this takes off. From my personal experience 10v10 is the sweet spot to fully get the group dynamics of gw2 gameplay

[R E F L H E X.8413]

10v10 sounds really extreme in numbers. Although I havent personally tried it.

 

I liked the 4v4 with the supports I was using (only the guard can halfassly now be used the blind necro was rfg). Even with 4v4 things can be too crowded to rupt properly which needs buffs to begin with dont know why powerblock got its damage lowered other than combo with chronos gravity well.

 

It just seems for a good teamfight with 10v10 using the same ratio as with 4v4 youd want 5 support and 5 roamers/fighters per team. Interrupt builds/skill become way less than they should be which is how this game is designed anyways. 10vs10 is too many people to get good rupts off leaving you to play something power or condi leaving shutdown out of the scenario completely which is its own playstyle and can be offensive or defensive (shutdowns already out of the picture anyways in the entire game so its not exclusive to 10v10).

 

If you havent tried 5 support and are doing 10vs10 you might want to try it in comparison to what youre playing now. You dont want to use gw1 ratios in this game. 5 **Supports per team should give some longer better played fights. For 8v8 I'd say go with 4 supports and 4 offensives. 4 is enough to spike and 4 should be decent at keeping them alive**

 

A team of 8v8 I dont think 4 supports should lose to a random bunch of teams with maybe two supports. 4v4 lowers the spike damage and could be a good number of players from my experience making the two supports not have to work as hard to prevent spike it also keeps aoe within range of hitting all 4 players.

[Jinks.2057]

> @"R E F L H E X.8413" said:

> 10v10 sounds really extreme in numbers. Although I havent personally tried it.

>

> I liked the 4v4 with the supports I was using (only the guard can halfassly now be used the blind necro was rfg). Even with 4v4 things can be too crowded to rupt properly which needs buffs to begin with dont know why powerblock got its damage lowered other than combo with chronos gravity well.

>

> It just seems for a good teamfight with 10v10 using the same ratio as with 4v4 youd want 5 support and 5 roamers/fighters per team. Interrupt builds/skill become way less than they should be which is how this game is designed anyways. 10vs10 is too many people to get good rupts off leaving you to play something power or condi leaving shutdown out of the scenario completely which is its own playstyle and can be offensive or defensive (shutdowns already out of the picture anyways in the entire game so its not exclusive to 10v10).

>

> If you havent tried 5 support and are doing 10vs10 you might want to try it in comparison to what youre playing now. You dont want to use gw1 ratios in this game. 5 **Supports per team should give some longer better played fights. For 8v8 I'd say go with 4 supports and 4 offensives. 4 is enough to spike and 4 should be decent at keeping them alive**

>

> A team of 8v8 I dont think 4 supports should lose to a random bunch of teams with maybe two supports. 4v4 lowers the spike damage and could be a good number of players from my experience making the two supports not have to work as hard to prevent spike it also keeps aoe within range of hitting all 4 players.

 

10v10 is the smallest number where team tactics and combo fields start to matter.

 

10s also demands higher individual skill compared to the 20s that most guilds used to run. You can't hide a mediocre player in 10s.

 

As for 4 support being good....nope. Teams have pushed the limit of as much damage as possible because that is how you win.

 

Now I would only have these 10v10 days once week with teams being able to practice/scrim in private servers during the week.

 

This all hinges on Anet opening up servers to allow this & making a map for it

[expandas.7051]

The VoD for last Saturday's event is now up on YouTube:

 

 

After organizing the show match and seeing how fluid things went, **I no longer believe there are significant logistical hurdles to expanding the format from 8v8 to 10v10**. Here are the pros and cons of 10v10 from my point of view.

 

# Pros

* Appeases WvW guilds that are more familiar with 15v15 or 20v20 formats

* Fully utilizes custom arena slots (20 for players, 5, for spectators)

* Build/class diversity

 

# Cons

* Damage creep from higher player count could make revives/defensive plays untenable

* Exacerbates issue of lack of parties for boon/buff priority

* More difficult to create and maintain team rosters, especially for the PvP community

* Server lag

* Deviates from GW1 numbers (minor issue)

 

 

Feel free to comment with any other points I might have missed. I want to avoid increasing player counts to 10v10 just because _we can_. It needs to add depth to the game mode, create value- not just be adopted because it's a nice round number or a multiple of five. To address the first few cons, I also have another proposal: **decrease the score limit per round from 100 to 50**. The idea here is that if the point totals are lower teams need to be more conservative with their positioning and play for all cap zones, not just mid.

 

# Pros

* Side cap zones become more valuable in the event of a standstill

* Forces teams to split up in order to cover more ground (minimizes pain point of lack of subgroups)

* Eliminating all (ten) players on the enemy team is an automatic win (QoL change)

* Opens up possibility for shorter respawn timers

# Neutral

* Buff to rotational gameplay

# Cons

* Map mechanics (3m, 25pts on Capricorn) have a bigger impact on round outcomes

 

I do want to touch on the last pro, "opens up the possibility for shorter respawn timers". If the point totals are lower, each death has a larger impact on winning/losing, but it would also provide more flexibility to teams because teammates can respawn. If one of your teammates goes down immediately at the start, it's no longer a GG. Teams could disengage and regroup instead of investing capital to go for an unlikely revive.

 

What do you guys think? As always, questions & comments are appreciated.