Downstate rewards only one kind of player

[Nuka Cola.8520]

Those who outnumber. Why should they be rewarded?

 

#removedownstatefromwvw

[Limodriver.4106]

thats why downstate should only be available to outman side

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

Uhh. What are they rewarded with? For clarity of course.

 

[Justine.6351]

~~It's rewarding to the outnumbered, not the other way around. Downed state often means little to those grossly outnumbered but it means alot to those who have the numbers for both rezing and pushing away a few foes to get that rez.~~

 

So I may or may not have misread the OP and then continued to confuse myself by typing half one opinion and half the other opinion. I'm not really sure how anyone who comprehended what I said didn't catch this and yet still upvoted and put helpful on my comment lol.

 

What I meant to say is that downed state is primarily carry for those who have favorable numbers and those who have fewer numbers tend to not get as much utility out of downed state. I'm not saying that downed state is evil, it just needs to be trimmed because when utilized "properly/ideally" it is an interesting mechanic.

 

Made this vid about a year ago. The thread I made about trimming downed state was not received well on the forums.

 

[Ubi.4136]

Downstate benefits the larger blob, nothing more. 50 vs 20, even when the 20 down someone, the 50 man blob just insta-resses them. No downstate means they are out of the fight, giving 20 a chance to win if they have more skill.

[Elmo Benchwarmer.3025]

There is no denying that Scourge/Firebrand zergs are a problem but the builds people mistake for "skillful" are just the flipside of the broken class design we have to deal with since the 23.6.2015 patch. If condition and sustain spam are definitely overpowering on some builds easy access to ranged and melee burst damage, stealth, untelegraphed teleports, unblockable attacks, abundance of evade frames, long invulnerability frames and abilities offering both offence and defence are just as counterproductive to challenging game play.

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> Downstate benefits the larger blob, nothing more. 50 vs 20, even when the 20 down someone, the 50 man blob just insta-resses them. No downstate means they are out of the fight, giving 20 a chance to win if they have more skill.

 

Completely agree here. With no down state, you can more easily thin out a full map blob by focusing the stragglers until the blob becomes manageable. With a down state, they just continue getting rallied or rez’d.

 

[Gixx.1756]

I don't think this is accurate, sure in a perfect scenario if a smaller group gets the jump and has the coordination to perform a burst on the larger group yes. But that is almost always never the case.

 

My guild plays this way 4 times a week for 2 hours a night, we usually have 10 - 15 players and almost always against groups of 20+ so it's 90% of the time an already outnumbered fight, now without downstate it we get punished very hard by AoE cap with little recovery to range dps or random variables ruining our stealth engages (being revealed by random pugs, or being pinsniped by angery players). We played 3 times this weekend before deciding it was not in our favor as the smaller group, even if we have the coordination advantage, this games mechanics from HoT/PoF are much heavier favoring the larger groups and the power creep punishes the small groups very hard.

Now normally with downstate in the game we have a TON of outplay opportunity and room to handle the power creep. For instance, Stealthing friendly downstates, Using Gyros, Merciful Intervention, Search And Rescue, or Transfusion, and theres plenty more options for surviving the big groups "bomb" or Damage.

 

this statement, the thread is based off of is insulting to the players who want to run small guild groups.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Gixx.1756" said:

> I don't think this is accurate, sure in a perfect scenario if a smaller group gets the jump and has the coordination to perform a burst on the larger group yes. But that is almost always never the case.

>

> My guild plays this way 4 times a week for 2 hours a night, we usually have 10 - 15 players and almost always against groups of 20+ so it's 90% of the time an already outnumbered fight, now without downstate it we get punished very hard by AoE cap with little recovery to range dps or random variables ruining our stealth engages (being revealed by random pugs, or being pinsniped by angery players). We played 3 times this weekend before deciding it was not in our favor as the smaller group, even if we have the coordination advantage, this games mechanics from HoT/PoF are much heavier favoring the larger groups and the power creep punishes the small groups very hard.

> Now normally with downstate in the game we have a TON of outplay opportunity and room to handle the power creep. For instance, Stealthing friendly downstates, Using Gyros, Merciful Intervention, Search And Rescue, or Transfusion, and theres plenty more options for surviving the big groups "bomb" or Damage.

>

> this statement, the thread is based off of is insulting to the players who want to run small guild groups.

 

outsustaining your opponent by ressurecting only works if the larger group doesnt ressurect. a guild group should bring more to the table then just the ability to ressurect.

[Gixx.1756]

Yes but its allows you to counterplay being one shot by random AoE. And a lot of the mechanics in gw2 are availible to everyone yes, but a more coordinated group will use every tool to there advantage, and can compensate for low numbers by doing this. Like I said the meta game right now has so much damage and healing and boon support that Downstate is essential to both sides.

 

If a guild has faster reaction time and better communication with eachother they should be rewarded for it, theres enough damge in this game that a coordinated group can cleave downstates very quickly from range even.

 

It's very punishing to to push a large group with 15 players and simply implode to 30 peoples AoEs. Downstate provides counterplay to one shot mechanics.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

> @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> Those who outnumber. Why should they be rewarded?

>

> #removedownstatefromwvw

 

Sorry, but you are totally wrong. It favors the smaller group.

 

If you're smart and use the terrain to your advantage, and are better, then you whittle down the large group until they are even / smaller. You can beat a 50 man group with 10 no problem. I've done this multiple times. Sure, open field, you will loose, but that's usually the case. I mean, you're not making a smart decision if you are just gonna fight a group twice your size and expect to win, even with rally mechanics, unless they're just really bad. Same thing with roaming or small groups.

 

To those who claim they are in a smaller group and now can't kill larger groups because they don't have the rally traits / skills available to them. That's not an argument as the larger group also has those same things in their tool kit. This week is all about skill, teamwork, builds, and commanders. No more rally crutch, on either side.

[Gixx.1756]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

 

> outsustaining your opponent by ressurecting only works if the larger group doesnt ressurect. a guild group should bring more to the table then just the ability to ressurect.

 

Also not true coordinated boon rip, damage, and C R O W D C O N T R O L, counters ressing.

 

[Victory.2879]

OP has missed the issue entirely- no downstate favours stealth, cheese, insta gib 'roamers' and roaming parties consisting of multiple stealth players who you can't see coming and down you in 0.2 seconds - the cancer builds of wvw.

 

Of course, the whole meta is rubbish with aoe spam condis meaning you can't clear fast enough and instantly die to 10000 stacks of condis spammed by 30 scourges.

 

Until they design the skills around wvw rather than pve, wvw mechanics will continue to be broken.

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"Spurnshadow.3678" said:

> > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > Those who outnumber. Why should they be rewarded?

> >

> > #removedownstatefromwvw

>

> Sorry, but you are totally wrong. It favors the smaller group.

>

> If you're smart and use the terrain to your advantage, and are better, then you whittle down the large group until they are even / smaller. You can beat a 50 man group with 10 no problem. I've done this multiple times. Sure, open field, you will loose, but that's usually the case. I mean, you're not making a smart decision if you are just gonna fight a group twice your size and expect to win, even with rally mechanics, unless they're just really bad. Same thing with roaming or small groups.

>

> To those who claim they are in a smaller group and now can't kill larger groups because they don't have the rally traits / skills available to them. That's not an argument as the larger group also has those same things in their tool kit. This week is all about skill, teamwork, builds, and commanders. No more rally crutch, on either side.

 

Well said. Very much in agreeance.

[urdriel.8496]

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > @"Spurnshadow.3678" said:

> > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > > Those who outnumber. Why should they be rewarded?

> > >

> > > #removedownstatefromwvw

> >

> > Sorry, but you are totally wrong. It favors the smaller group.

> >

> > If you're smart and use the terrain to your advantage, and are better, then you whittle down the large group until they are even / smaller. You can beat a 50 man group with 10 no problem. I've done this multiple times. Sure, open field, you will loose, but that's usually the case. I mean, you're not making a smart decision if you are just gonna fight a group twice your size and expect to win, even with rally mechanics, unless they're just really bad. Same thing with roaming or small groups.

> >

> > To those who claim they are in a smaller group and now can't kill larger groups because they don't have the rally traits / skills available to them. That's not an argument as the larger group also has those same things in their tool kit. This week is all about skill, teamwork, builds, and commanders. No more rally crutch, on either side.

>

> Well said. Very much in agreeance.

 

Yep, with no downed state, if the enemy have a far greater amount of players, GUERRILLA WARS!!!!!!

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Gixx.1756" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

>

> > outsustaining your opponent by ressurecting only works if the larger group doesnt ressurect. a guild group should bring more to the table then just the ability to ressurect.

>

> Also not true coordinated boon rip, damage, and C R O W D C O N T R O L, counters ressing.

>

 

if you ress by pressing F yes, if you res with mainly MI and tranfusion - nope becuase MI is instant and in case of scourge transfusion is also tied to an instant abilitiy.

again you should bring more then playing the downstate game as a coordinated group or are you just mindlessly spamming your skills unless you or the opponent has a downstate?

 

[whoknocks.4935]

Downstate instead rewards bad players who rely on being ressed to win.

 

You know how many times I would have won a 1vs2 against decent players and after downed one it was impossible for me to stomp or cleave, and the other guy was a ranger with 10 stacks stability and stone signet... impossible to cleave and outdamage the stupid ress mechanic.

 

Downed state it's a cool feauture for pve or pvp, where you have control points.

 

But WvW is war zone, if you die you should go back to spawn, instead of being stupidly ressed by a random npc death or ressed by a teammates and then win the fight you didn't deserve to win.

 

I love no downed state, I would love to see a send duel request to make it perfect.

[Gixx.1756]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Gixx.1756" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> >

> > > outsustaining your opponent by ressurecting only works if the larger group doesnt ressurect. a guild group should bring more to the table then just the ability to ressurect.

> >

> > Also not true coordinated boon rip, damage, and C R O W D C O N T R O L, counters ressing.

> >

>

> if you ress by pressing F yes, if you res with mainly MI and tranfusion - nope becuase MI is instant and in case of scourge transfusion is also tied to an instant abilitiy.

> again you should bring more then playing the downstate game as a coordinated group or are you just mindlessly spamming your skills unless you or the opponent has a downstate?

>

 

No, i think you're inexperienced in the subject of outnumbered guild fights in 2018. If you were you would understand that 30k AoE burst damage or higher because AoE cap of a large group hits more players because they have more players xd We have plenty of things to offer as a guild, down game is important, we have plenty of peeling and dedicated healers and stealth utility as well. i don't understand how you can't get that 40 people have 2 - 3 x the amount of damage output 15 ppl have. if 40 people hit you you will die instantly, even if you have healers and plenty of evade frames eventually those are exhausted and that damage will run you over.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Gixx.1756" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Gixx.1756" said:

> > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > >

> > > > outsustaining your opponent by ressurecting only works if the larger group doesnt ressurect. a guild group should bring more to the table then just the ability to ressurect.

> > >

> > > Also not true coordinated boon rip, damage, and C R O W D C O N T R O L, counters ressing.

> > >

> >

> > if you ress by pressing F yes, if you res with mainly MI and tranfusion - nope becuase MI is instant and in case of scourge transfusion is also tied to an instant abilitiy.

> > again you should bring more then playing the downstate game as a coordinated group or are you just mindlessly spamming your skills unless you or the opponent has a downstate?

> >

>

> No, i think you're inexperienced in the subject of outnumbered guild fights in 2018. If you were you would understand that 30k AoE burst damage or higher because AoE cap of a large group hits more players because they have more players xd We have plenty of things to offer as a guild, down game is important, we have plenty of peeling and dedicated healers and stealth utility as well. i don't understand how you can't get that 40 people have 2 - 3 x the amount of damage output 15 ppl have. if 40 people hit you you will die instantly, even if you have healers and plenty of evade frames eventually those are exhausted and that damage will run you over.

 

oh i understand that 40 players have more of everything then 15. but that is just potential. with individual skill and groupplay/coordination you can use more or less of that potential. it is unlikely that you will survive a burst from 40 longer then from 15, it doesnt take 40 hits to kill a player.

while downstate is another tool experienced players can use to win against less experienced ones who do not utilize it, it is not all the advantage you have. the issue is that downstate or the ability to get back into the fight is really strong and easy to use, so it is likely a large group even of inexperienced players will have a greater advantage then the small group. ontop a couple of decent supportes can carry a bad larger group through every fight with downstate.

i dont mind rallies that are made with kills, but ressurects should be limited to once per minute or once per in combat. this is needed to make pick valuable again instead of just spamming AoEs into each other.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

> @"Victory.2879" said:

> OP has missed the issue entirely- no downstate favours stealth, cheese, insta gib 'roamers' and roaming parties consisting of multiple stealth players who you can't see coming and down you in 0.2 seconds - the cancer builds of wvw.

>

> Of course, the whole meta is rubbish with aoe spam condis meaning you can't clear fast enough and instantly die to 10000 stacks of condis spammed by 30 scourges.

>

> Until they design the skills around wvw rather than pve, wvw mechanics will continue to be broken.

 

It does. But do you truly believe that downstate doesn't favors those same groups? It benefits them even more so. If im alone against those groups, at least im able to do something. With downstate, you cannot stomp before they're being rezed.

[Serephen.3420]

I personally would be in favour of a no rally mechanic and a restricted downstate instead of the current instagib. Will have to wait and see what they do.

[Elizabeth Reed.9173]

> @"Gixx.1756" said:

> I don't think this is accurate, sure in a perfect scenario if a smaller group gets the jump and has the coordination to perform a burst on the larger group yes. But that is almost always never the case.

>

> My guild plays this way 4 times a week for 2 hours a night, we usually have 10 - 15 players and almost always against groups of 20+ so it's 90% of the time an already outnumbered fight, now without downstate it we get punished very hard by AoE cap with little recovery to range dps or random variables ruining our stealth engages (being revealed by random pugs, or being pinsniped by angery players). We played 3 times this weekend before deciding it was not in our favor as the smaller group, even if we have the coordination advantage, this games mechanics from HoT/PoF are much heavier favoring the larger groups and the power creep punishes the small groups very hard.

> Now normally with downstate in the game we have a TON of outplay opportunity and room to handle the power creep. For instance, Stealthing friendly downstates, Using Gyros, Merciful Intervention, Search And Rescue, or Transfusion, and theres plenty more options for surviving the big groups "bomb" or Damage.

>

> this statement, the thread is based off of is insulting to the players who want to run small guild groups.

 

Agree. Having down state gives you more of a chance against bigger groups. There's always that opportunity to fight it out even when downed. With no down state once you get rocked the rest of your group is toast. No down state has been very bad for the small guild I run with. I believe ANet's intention here is to eliminate the small friendly guilds and emphasize the large elitist guilds thus getting rid of the casual player base once and for all. ANet makes more money supporting the elitist ranks of the game. For them, there is no room for the casual player.

[Regn.1924]

The majority of people in here talking about how bad other players are compared to themselves are inflating their own egos by playing an overpowered WvW class wearing some combination of Cleric gear, meaning they are always downed last, thus can rationalize that their downed state was the fault of everyone else around them. Most noticeably are the ones who stay at the rear end of group using everyone else as meatshields up until it's time to use all of the skills in their arsenal to move ahead of the group such as 3 seconds of invincibility when its time to run through the zerg, then are first to run away and leave everyone else behind to die at the first sign of trouble, always being the one who survives because he or she uses everyone else to get ahead. I don't even play WvW, and I find this obvious. You're not skilled; you're a leech, with a clinical need to boast.

[Mizhas.8536]

> @"Elizabeth Reed.9173" said:

> > @"Gixx.1756" said:

> > I don't think this is accurate, sure in a perfect scenario if a smaller group gets the jump and has the coordination to perform a burst on the larger group yes. But that is almost always never the case.

> >

> > My guild plays this way 4 times a week for 2 hours a night, we usually have 10 - 15 players and almost always against groups of 20+ so it's 90% of the time an already outnumbered fight, now without downstate it we get punished very hard by AoE cap with little recovery to range dps or random variables ruining our stealth engages (being revealed by random pugs, or being pinsniped by angery players). We played 3 times this weekend before deciding it was not in our favor as the smaller group, even if we have the coordination advantage, this games mechanics from HoT/PoF are much heavier favoring the larger groups and the power creep punishes the small groups very hard.

> > Now normally with downstate in the game we have a TON of outplay opportunity and room to handle the power creep. For instance, Stealthing friendly downstates, Using Gyros, Merciful Intervention, Search And Rescue, or Transfusion, and theres plenty more options for surviving the big groups "bomb" or Damage.

> >

> > this statement, the thread is based off of is insulting to the players who want to run small guild groups.

>

> Agree. Having down state gives you more of a chance against bigger groups. There's always that opportunity to fight it out even when downed. With no down state once you get rocked the rest of your group is toast. No down state has been very bad for the small guild I run with. I believe ANet's intention here is to eliminate the small friendly guilds and emphasize the large elitist guilds thus getting rid of the casual player base once and for all. ANet makes more money supporting the elitist ranks of the game. For them, there is no room for the casual player.

 

Wait what?

 

If you are downed against a bigger group you are pretty much as dead as you were with no downed state. Why? Because the have more numbers, more dps, more skills, more everything. In fact a downed for the bigger group is a minor problem since thay can just keep pushing due to superiority in numbers.

 

No downstate makes small groups better against bigger ones for 2 reasons.

1st - Enemies you kill can not be easily rezzed.

2nd - Once an enemy is dead, you dps goes for the next target so you don´t have to "kill" the same target twice. (This is one of the big mistakes about downed state and makes the numbers more important than the skill which should NEVER happen in PvP enviroment)

 

Downed state has it´s meaning in PvP and in PvE but in WvW downed state is just shit. Please remove it forever.

 

[intox.6347]

> @"Gixx.1756" said:

> I don't think this is accurate, sure in a perfect scenario if a smaller group gets the jump and has the coordination to perform a burst on the larger group yes. But that is almost always never the case.

>

> My guild plays this way 4 times a week for 2 hours a night, we usually have 10 - 15 players and almost always against groups of 20+ so it's 90% of the time an already outnumbered fight, now without downstate it we get punished very hard by AoE cap with little recovery to range dps or random variables ruining our stealth engages (being revealed by random pugs, or being pinsniped by angery players). We played 3 times this weekend before deciding it was not in our favor as the smaller group, even if we have the coordination advantage, this games mechanics from HoT/PoF are much heavier favoring the larger groups and the power creep punishes the small groups very hard.

> Now normally with downstate in the game we have a TON of outplay opportunity and room to handle the power creep. For instance, Stealthing friendly downstates, Using Gyros, Merciful Intervention, Search And Rescue, or Transfusion, and theres plenty more options for surviving the big groups "bomb" or Damage.

>

> this statement, the thread is based off of is insulting to the players who want to run small guild groups.

 

exactly this..... i see all people here saying nonsense like .... no downstate is in favor for small groups vs bigger .... yay what ? small group need downstate tactic more.... ress focused person... also bomb their first fallen they try to ress.... once no downstate... they just force focus on one and you can do .... about it... also they can have around a lot of cheese builds like glass daredevil, de, power mirage ... they just pick one target and kill him... with no chance to help him.

 

No downstate is good only for kill combat (just going for frags...) so gvg , 40vs40 ....