Spellbreaker isn't op

[Zeghart.9841]

> @ArthurDent.9538 said:

> It is only weak because it doesn't do anything better than condi berserker which is arguably the best pve build in the game (at least top 3).

 

It's weak because it does nothing aside from might stacking.

 

The damage is honestly appalling - most dps specs now reach 30-40k damage, or even above 50k in the case of Firebrand and Weaver.

I believe Spellbreaker **doesn't even break 20k**. I think it tops at 15-16k. It has _zero_ chance to ever be used in endgame PvE in this state.

 

Also Condi PS might've been one of the best builds in the game before the xpac, but with PoF things have changed quite a bit.

 

That said, that is all beside the point - this is a PvP discussion.

[Crinn.7864]

> @Ebayed.1568 said:

> Both spellbreaker and scourge need to be nerfed by a decent amount. As the previous reply says: it's the type of thing you can't get enough of on your team. That should be a pretty good indicator, despite the semantics.

 

Scourge is already confirmed to be bugged since the crazy burst is coming from the fact that overlap between shade and the scourge themselves is causing double hitting despite the fact that the tooltip (and the devs themselves) have expressly stated that it's not supposed to work that way.

[eksn.7264]

> @Loop.8106 said:

> > @eksn.7264 said:

> > Every time warrior has had a strong build, Anet nerfs it to oblivion. Let's just hope they don't do that this time.

>

> You have no idea how sick and tired I am from reading this exact line from every warrior player and their mother. Warrior has been meta most of the time before HoT. On HoT drop, they werent weak, just overshadowed by rev (just like every other class in the same position). Later they back on the rise with Macebow Condition zerker. This build completly stomped the meta as it was close to un-contested in 1v1s. (Outside of chronos). This made Power warriors rise, they beat Scrappers, Mesmers and beat / stalemated druids. Only real thing they lost to were Dragonhunters.

> Post Endure / AH nerf warriors were on the down for a bit before the core warrior rose.

>

> Now we're at PoF and they are once again among the top classes.

>

> So stop using "Anet nerfed us into oblivion" when you've clearly had so many good builds through the years. GS/Hammer, Hambow, Shoutbow, Ragezerker, Macebow zerker, axe/shield Gs. This is just naming some builds from the top of my mind.

>

> Even if Warriors were helltrash for the last 5 years and not a single warrior has been seen in pvp ever, is still not an excuse for letting the spec be overpowered now.

>

>

 

Sorry for my poor choice of words and exaggeration there. Maybe a better way to look at it is warrior is very easy to nerf to uselessness because other classes just have _more stuff_ to work with. If you nerf one aspect of a build sometimes even slightly, some other classes will come in and just take over that role. Yes we've had plenty of good builds but it doesn't tell the whole story. Of course we've had a few overpowered builds like invincible banner warrior running in circles on a point, hambow (which was the longest warrior was ever relevant), Skull Crack pre-nerf, etc. All classes had OP builds at some point too.

 

I _think_ warrior has seen the least play out of all classes throughout the history of **competitive** GW2 (excluding Rev), with close second being Ranger. No stats to back that up, just personal experience since launch, someone can correct me. The class always had great **offensive** depth, but very very poor **defensive** depth. Meaning we either have way too much free offensive pressure, or we can't even get any pressure going in the first place. Very few builds stayed in that sweet spot before falling out of meta. Warrior NEEDS a different kind of defense that's not all boring passive and instacast bullshit. That stuff is just _too hard_ to balance. The answer isn't to nerf warrior's core defensive abilities, it's to give us more _different_ kinds of defense so Anet has more things to fine tune for us. Full Counter is just that, a built in defensive ability that's (mostly) not too braindead that Anet can balance. I think that's the reason why they loaded the skill so much, more things to fine tune for them all in one skill.

 

I really don't think SB is overpowered as you say, and if Anet nerfs it too much that would be a shame since it's _supposed_ to be a PvP spec.

 

> @Zeghart.9841 said:

> Guardians and Elementalists have been meta in all aspects of the game since the game launched. So?

 

Not entirely true. Ele was great at launch but was nerfed to the ground and basically only resurfaced over a year later with the introduction of celestial.

 

[OriOri.8724]

> @Zeghart.9841 said:

> > @ArthurDent.9538 said:

> > It is only weak because it doesn't do anything better than condi berserker which is arguably the best pve build in the game (at least top 3).

>

> It's weak because it does nothing aside from might stacking.

>

> The damage is honestly appalling - most dps specs now reach 30-40k damage, or even above 50k in the case of Firebrand and Weaver.

> I believe Spellbreaker **doesn't even break 20k**. I think it tops at 15-16k. It has _zero_ chance to ever be used in endgame PvE in this state.

>

> Also Condi PS might've been one of the best builds in the game before the xpac, but with PoF things have changed quite a bit.

>

> That said, that is all beside the point - this is a PvP discussion.

 

Not here to debate the DPS of spellbreaker in PvE, but just throwing out the absolutely fucking broken DPS of firebrand and weaver is pointless. That's fucking bullshit and needs to be nerfed, hard as fuck, immediately. HoT already brought enough powercreep to the game, we honestly didn't need more with PoF. Even if you are ok with power creep though, these 2 specs, if they are actually hitting 50k, brought more than a 25% increase over the past top DPS build when PoF dropped.

 

That's beyond fucking absurd, and needs to be nerfed, now.

[Zeghart.9841]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> Not here to debate the DPS of spellbreaker in PvE, but just throwing out the absolutely kitten broken DPS of firebrand and weaver is pointless. That's kitten kitten and needs to be nerfed, hard as kitten, immediately. HoT already brought enough powercreep to the game, we honestly didn't need more with PoF. Even if you are ok with power creep though, these 2 specs, if they are actually hitting 50k, brought more than a 25% increase over the past top DPS build when PoF dropped.

>

> That's beyond kitten absurd, and needs to be nerfed, now.

 

I agree, yet it's how it is at the moment. Devs have been pretty silent on it for now, aside from fixing some bugged traits that still didn't impact **that** much.

 

Anyway, even without mentioning those two (hopefully just broken) specs, stuff like Soulbeast or Scourge can still reach well above 30k into the realm of 40k, **which is double what Spellbreaker can do**. Powercreep or not, SB is way below the standards, even compared to HoT specs.

 

The capabilities of Full Counter and the viability of the Spellbreaker in PvP is all the spec has going for it, even a small change could make the spec unusable **in pretty much every single aspect of the game**. Which seems crazy, especially since Full Counter is not **that** powerful to begin with and playing around it is fairly straighforward.

[Dralor.3701]

Game has been out long enough for everyone to know warrior isn't allowed to be viable in any game mode.

[Loop.8106]

> @Dralor.3701 said:

> Game has been out long enough for everyone to know warrior isn't allowed to be viable in any game mode.

 

I don't know if you're trolling or completly braindead.

Starting with PvE

Back in 2012 going through 2013 the meta comp in dungeons were 4 greatsword warriors + 1 guardian.

2013 people realised ele had more burst damage potential, people started running 3 eles 1 warrior and 1 guardian

Todays "meta comp" in dungeons are Warrior Ele Thief Druid Mesmer.

Todays "meta comp" in fractals are Warrior Druid Mesmer + 2 dps spots.

Todays "meta comp" in raids are 2 druids, 2 chronos, 2 warriors and 4 dps.

This means Warriors have had a place in pve from day 1 till now. Undisputed.

 

Pvp

Alot of warriors were seen in the early days, read the post above.

They have had alot of different viable builds unlike Ele, Guardian which only had about 2-3 before HoT.

Warriors were absolutly terrible the first 4(?) seasons of pvp, and I mean it. Absolute trash.

Since then Warriors have had their place in comps, never in competetive settings though. Until late (where vaanss is one of the few players that played it.)

 

WvW

Back in the day Warriors were used in the damage slot in zerg groups. Running Hammer and GS they had the survivability aswell as the damage output to live through clashes, aswell as banners to res.

Nowadays, mostly trailblazer necros and staff eles occupy the spots in a "wvw comp".

 

I by no means wish to nerf warriors into the ground and render them unplayable, I'd like to be able to outplay them. Which is close to impossible at this time.

[Darknicrofia.2604]

But there was that 2 season stretch where warriors were a bottom 3 pvp class and that time in wvw where pirate ship meta made melee train bad, therefore warriors have been trash always forever.

[Dralor.3701]

Warrior was fine in vanilla PvE but for the longest time they have only been a PS BOT.

 

Outside of hambow have been garbage in PvP since the haste nerfs.

 

Hammer has always been fine in WvW but again you mostly wanted warriors for the horn cleanses(idk what low tier ran gs?), horrible since stab changes. Why would you ever play a warrior over a guardian in WvW?

 

Popular class but always low tier, the above assement is far from braindead. For what it's worth I mostly focus on pvp/WvW..

 

 

[CitizenKing.4912]

What's funny to me is how people react to a statement like "don't attack the spellbreaker you're dueling when he turns gold and shiny."

 

I had a diamond player start talking about "Oh, I'm supposed to just run away and let him take the point?!"

 

These people seem to want pvp to be pve where they can just mindlessly roll through their practiced rotation while standing outside of the fire.

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

> @CitizenKing.4912 said:

> What's funny to me is how people react to a statement like "don't attack the spellbreaker you're dueling when he turns gold and shiny."

>

> I had a diamond player start talking about "Oh, I'm supposed to just run away and let him take the point?!"

>

> These people seem to want pvp to be pve where they can just mindlessly roll through their practiced rotation while standing outside of the fire.

 

its funny because, they conflate "dont attack" with "disengage and run away"

You can remain on point and not attack a enemy also on point.

Hell there is no point in running away from the warrior using counter, they cant attack back when using it and they have no way to end the skill early. Your only worry is a teammate does not set off the counter, even then the damage is not really that high....

[Loop.8106]

> @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > @CitizenKing.4912 said:

> > What's funny to me is how people react to a statement like "don't attack the spellbreaker you're dueling when he turns gold and shiny."

> >

> > I had a diamond player start talking about "Oh, I'm supposed to just run away and let him take the point?!"

> >

> > These people seem to want pvp to be pve where they can just mindlessly roll through their practiced rotation while standing outside of the fire.

>

> its funny because, they conflate "dont attack" with "disengage and run away"

> You can remain on point and not attack a enemy also on point.

> kitten there is no point in running away from the warrior using counter, they cant attack back when using it and they have no way to end the skill early. Your only worry is a teammate does not set off the counter, even then the damage is not really that high....

 

Only you can't. Symbols, Clones, Ranger pets, Necro minions all proc full counter.

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

> @Loop.8106 said:

> > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > > @CitizenKing.4912 said:

> > > What's funny to me is how people react to a statement like "don't attack the spellbreaker you're dueling when he turns gold and shiny."

> > >

> > > I had a diamond player start talking about "Oh, I'm supposed to just run away and let him take the point?!"

> > >

> > > These people seem to want pvp to be pve where they can just mindlessly roll through their practiced rotation while standing outside of the fire.

> >

> > its funny because, they conflate "dont attack" with "disengage and run away"

> > You can remain on point and not attack a enemy also on point.

> > kitten there is no point in running away from the warrior using counter, they cant attack back when using it and they have no way to end the skill early. Your only worry is a teammate does not set off the counter, even then the damage is not really that high....

>

> Only you can't. Symbols, Clones, Ranger pets, Necro minions all proc full counter.

 

So what? Don't be so over reliant on such things when taking on a spellbreaker, you cant be mad when you are setting yourself up for failure because you would rather rely on those mechanics.

Play smarter, dont play into a counter. You can only blame yourself if you decide to use symbols so arrogantly.

And unless a symbol lasts longer than 6 seconds, there is plenty of room to make use of them IN BETWEEN counters. Stop spamming your symbols man.

And even so, you can still dodge or TEMPORARILY disengage (as in move out of counter range for the counter duration), not long enough for the spell breaker to even decap let alone cap or... well do anything.

Seems like you just dont want to adapt.

 

[Zeghart.9841]

> @Loop.8106 said:

> Only you can't. Symbols, Clones, Ranger pets, Necro minions all proc full counter.

 

If a clone, a ranger pet or a minion procs full counter, chances are you'll be far enough to be out of range. And if not, a dodge solves it.

 

For symbols simply don't spam them on point. Or do and once again, dodge the FC.

 

In both cases the Spellbreaker will have wasted FC to block some crappy chip damage, be without block to absorb a stronger attack, and without burst damage to actually kill you. The entire mechanic of the Spellbreaker and the only thing going for it can be completely avoided with a single dodge. You don't need **more** counterplay.

[Abelisk.4527]

Full Counter is one thing, Break Enchantments and Reckless Dodge is another.

[Crinn.7864]

Ya'll do realize that if full counter gets proc'ed there is still a time delay on the damage and cc being applied.

 

When I fight a spellbreaker, I usually just intentionally hit the counter, and then dodge roll it's attack.

[Loop.8106]

> @Zeghart.9841 said:

> > @Loop.8106 said:

> > Only you can't. Symbols, Clones, Ranger pets, Necro minions all proc full counter.

>

> If a clone, a ranger pet or a minion procs full counter, chances are you'll be far enough to be out of range. And if not, a dodge solves it.

>

> For symbols simply don't spam them on point. Or do and once again, dodge the FC.

>

> In both cases the Spellbreaker will have wasted FC to block some crappy chip damage, be without block to absorb a stronger attack, and without burst damage to actually kill you. The entire mechanic of the Spellbreaker and the only thing going for it can be completely avoided with a single dodge. You don't need **more** counterplay.

 

Symbols are the main source of a guardians damage. If we don't use them we simply don't have enough damage to remotely pressure a Spellbreaker off point. As for Mesmers and their clones. It's their class mechanic. They should not be forced off point simply because Full Counter completly kills off every clone every 8 seconds while also transfering the condis back onto the mesmer.

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @Poelala.2830 said:

> > @Saiyan.1704 said:

> > Spellbreaker and Scourge are the strongest classes in this expansion thus far. They are the two classes anyone wouldn't mind having more of.

> >

> > You can talk semantics on this class but, list exactly which class is able to out-play a Spellbreaker 1v1 and/or in team fights. You can't mention Scourge either.

>

> I just said that core war beats it

>

 

Requiring a warrior to beat a warrior is not a legitimate counter. Also not the greatest comparison since that core warrior build ~~facerolls hard ~~excels heavily at 1v1. The problem with spellbreaker is how powerful fullcounter becomes in non 1v1 scenarios. There really isn't much counterplay around it when they can guarantee that they can successfully use it on cooldown every single time.

[Zeghart.9841]

> @Loop.8106 said:

> Symbols are the main source of a guardians damage. If we don't use them we simply don't have enough damage to remotely pressure a Spellbreaker off point. As for Mesmers and their clones. It's their class mechanic. They should not be forced off point simply because Full Counter completly kills off every clone every 8 seconds while also transfering the condis back onto the mesmer.

 

Pretty sure Guardian would still manage just fine.

But aside from that, not spamming AoEs does not equal not using them at all. You just have to use them **after playing around Full Counter**.

Instead you're asking to be able to completely ignore the mechanic and spam away. Meaning exactly what Full Counter is _made to prevent_.

 

And mesmers aren't forced off point by Spellbreakers. Using a dodge doesn't force you to disengage or leave the point.

In fact Mesmers in general seem to not really have huge problems with Spellbreakers to begin with, as they have ways to kite or evade FC, and also Distortion.

Not to mention Blurred Frenzy, which _activates and completely negates Full Counter on its own_.

 

> It's their class mechanic.

 

So is Full Counter.

[LughLongArm.5460]

Spellbreaker is not OP, only fullcounter is OP, same way Druid is not OP but the new pet(rock gazelle) is. Now we can agree?

[Zeghart.9841]

> @LughLongArm.5460 said:

> Spellbreaker is not OP, only fullcounter is OP, same way Druid is not OP but the new pet(rock gazelle) is. Now we can agree?

 

Rock Gazelle isn't OP, it's just broken. It doesn't work half the time, hits way harder than intended and way too many times.

 

Full Counter _works as intended_. It's just that people refuse to adapt their playstyle to counter it and want it to be a skill they can safely ignore.

[Qugi.2653]

Not OP. Why is time new stuff happen for clase people say all OP?

[Lighter.5631]

> @Loop.8106 said:

> > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > > @CitizenKing.4912 said:

> > > What's funny to me is how people react to a statement like "don't attack the spellbreaker you're dueling when he turns gold and shiny."

> > >

> > > I had a diamond player start talking about "Oh, I'm supposed to just run away and let him take the point?!"

> > >

> > > These people seem to want pvp to be pve where they can just mindlessly roll through their practiced rotation while standing outside of the fire.

> >

> > its funny because, they conflate "dont attack" with "disengage and run away"

> > You can remain on point and not attack a enemy also on point.

> > kitten there is no point in running away from the warrior using counter, they cant attack back when using it and they have no way to end the skill early. Your only worry is a teammate does not set off the counter, even then the damage is not really that high....

>

> Only you can't. Symbols, Clones, Ranger pets, Necro minions all proc full counter.

 

dodge? it's like the only thing you need to dodge to avoid from a war anyway...

[Anoia.7342]

Waiting for all these highly skillful spellbreaker players hop on their guardians and tell us all how they outplayed spellbreaker. Unblockable aoe daze was apparently too OP for 1 guard trap on a 25 second cooldown that also required you invest a trait on making it daze and could easily be avoided by not walking on the trap or being right next to the guard, but I guess a mobile unblockable aoe daze trap that strips boons and absorbs damage on the caster and can be recharged in seconds is cool... cool cool cool.

 

Honestly just a stability buff would probably fix a lot of things rn

[HeadCrowned.6834]

Imo the problem with warrior is their survivability in combination with squishy amulets.