Swagger.1459 Posted June 18, 2018 Author Share Posted June 18, 2018 > @"Ertrak.9506" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"Ertrak.9506" said: > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > @"Phosphorite.6192" said: > > > > > > > So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems. > > > > > > > > > > However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources. > > > > > > > > > > Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change. > > > > > > > > So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource? > > > > > > > > Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it. > > > > > > > > So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions? > > > > > > > > The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing. > > > > > > > > Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference. > > > > > > > > Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument. > > > > > > > > > > I would have to agree with them and add to what they said: > > > > > > I would absolutely say that 40+ skills per class is not what makes them unique. Three resource management *is literally the profession unique mechanic that literally identifies how each class plays* > > > > > > Wirh that, each class becomes homogenized. Warriors simply have another skill to use. Revs just get nothing. Necros get +5 skills. Mesmers just have +5 skills (if u include cs). Everything looses its meaning. > > > > > > You seem to believe druid is grated by the resource, yet i would argue the 15s cool down is what you're actually gated by *which is seemingly what youre advocating for? *. Sorry but of your not generating full ca before the cd its a l2p issue, not a resource issue. Yes. I mean for pvp. > > > > > > You are also under the impression this will somehow bring better balance? You realize that your shroud necro skills are as powerful as they are because of the fact that they are gated by a resource? If this was implemented your skills would end up nerfed and you would further complain. > > > > > > Think about this actually critically. What happens to warrior skills if there's only a cool down? Did you think about why specifically the spellbreaker only gets 2 bars instead of 3? That's a balance decision. With only a cool down that makes burst skills on spellbreaker equally damaging as berserker, while also getting full counter abd the utility of the spellbreakers kit. This inherently makes the spellbreaker better in all scenarios and *actually harder to balance in the long run* > > > > > > Take a look at mesmers. Ppl complain they're already over powered. Now imagine they don't even have to generate clones to get the full power of a shatter *or ambush even*? > > > > > > See where this is going? > > > > > > Face value of this looks great from a bias point of view. Now actually think about it critically from every angle and realize the ramifications. > > > > > > Edit there's probably of spelling errors. I blame my phone. I'm sorry. > > > > Are you joking? If you think, for example, that astral force defines playing a heal support role... that is pretty irrational. So if we were to remove astral force and make CA a stance, you see zero difference between Druid and a daredevil? You see zero difference between a damage spec vs a heal support spec??? What? > > > > Later I’ll post a game that had 10x more build diversity and playable roles than gw2 will ever have... That didn’t have gating resources like gw2 has on certain professions... Combat was also 10x more balanced and almost every class spec was viable in pvp, unlike gw2... Who is currently in the process of, 6 years later, starting to talk about adding in more “high level build diversity”. > > > > Sorry, but gw2 has some of the poorest pvp and wvw balance designs out of many mmos. This game was made for pve. MO himself stated long ago, in the wvw section, that the team was “looking for balance wins that won’t screw over pve”... And raids are the primary consideration when new elites are designed... > > > > This game has struggled with balance and professions development since launch, and you may think that intentionally unbalanced mechanics are some super designs for mmos, but the failed esports dream should be an indication of how subpar things are for competitive gameplay. > > > > And no, I don’t want to be fiddling with life force when roaming, especially when you have stuff like 3 seconds 24k Mesmer bursts from stealth on my full trailblazer necro... The devs created unnecessary imbalances that ruin what good elements they created with combat and professions... > > > > I said nothing about Mesmer not needing to generate clones to get the benefits of shatter... You’re not reading things correctly... > > > > Right. Since you don't seem to understand the difference between playstyle and fulfilling a role... > > The druid is defined by its astral force as a *playstyle* in which it has to build a resource, then dump it all for gain. That defines it as a druid. That defines the strategies and tactics you use with that spec > > It's CA *skills and traits* define are what define it as a healer/ buffer instead of a damage spec. I dont understand how this concept is hard to grasp. > > You specifically stated an example where you said you had to sit and watch your allies take damage because you were gated out of CA form. That is a player skill problem. I'm sorry. Get better. > > Yes this game has struggled with balance but homogenization will not fix that. Rs3 being a great example of a game that homogenized its combat (due to years of pvp complaints) , years into its life span, and ended up alienating over 50%of its player base (dwindling further everyday). > > You didn't address the spellbreaker example. > > I brought up mesmers because its the same principle. Clones are a mesmers resource they have to micro manage. Its the same concept for necros. You have to micro manage your resource because how that class plays. > > What you want is a new elite spec for necro that completely changes the profession mechanic. That's not, in and of itself, 100% unreasonable. That was *part* of the design intent of new elite specs. > > But to want all professions to get rid of resource management just because you specifically do not like it however, is unreasonable when it won't actually solve any of the problems you think it will. I’m sorry, but it’s hard to hold a discussion with someone who believes a resource mechanic defines the intended role. Druid is a healer spec. Removing astral force from the equation, and creating a stance, still makes Druid a heal spec... sans annoying mechanics. And making said change doesn’t homogenize anything, because the skills and traits are the defining factor... Your argument is like saying Druid and Daredevil staff skills are the same... GL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ertrak.9506 Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"Ertrak.9506" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"Ertrak.9506" said: > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > @"Phosphorite.6192" said: > > > > > > > > So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources. > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change. > > > > > > > > > > So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource? > > > > > > > > > > Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it. > > > > > > > > > > So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions? > > > > > > > > > > The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing. > > > > > > > > > > Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference. > > > > > > > > > > Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would have to agree with them and add to what they said: > > > > > > > > I would absolutely say that 40+ skills per class is not what makes them unique. Three resource management *is literally the profession unique mechanic that literally identifies how each class plays* > > > > > > > > Wirh that, each class becomes homogenized. Warriors simply have another skill to use. Revs just get nothing. Necros get +5 skills. Mesmers just have +5 skills (if u include cs). Everything looses its meaning. > > > > > > > > You seem to believe druid is grated by the resource, yet i would argue the 15s cool down is what you're actually gated by *which is seemingly what youre advocating for? *. Sorry but of your not generating full ca before the cd its a l2p issue, not a resource issue. Yes. I mean for pvp. > > > > > > > > You are also under the impression this will somehow bring better balance? You realize that your shroud necro skills are as powerful as they are because of the fact that they are gated by a resource? If this was implemented your skills would end up nerfed and you would further complain. > > > > > > > > Think about this actually critically. What happens to warrior skills if there's only a cool down? Did you think about why specifically the spellbreaker only gets 2 bars instead of 3? That's a balance decision. With only a cool down that makes burst skills on spellbreaker equally damaging as berserker, while also getting full counter abd the utility of the spellbreakers kit. This inherently makes the spellbreaker better in all scenarios and *actually harder to balance in the long run* > > > > > > > > Take a look at mesmers. Ppl complain they're already over powered. Now imagine they don't even have to generate clones to get the full power of a shatter *or ambush even*? > > > > > > > > See where this is going? > > > > > > > > Face value of this looks great from a bias point of view. Now actually think about it critically from every angle and realize the ramifications. > > > > > > > > Edit there's probably of spelling errors. I blame my phone. I'm sorry. > > > > > > Are you joking? If you think, for example, that astral force defines playing a heal support role... that is pretty irrational. So if we were to remove astral force and make CA a stance, you see zero difference between Druid and a daredevil? You see zero difference between a damage spec vs a heal support spec??? What? > > > > > > Later I’ll post a game that had 10x more build diversity and playable roles than gw2 will ever have... That didn’t have gating resources like gw2 has on certain professions... Combat was also 10x more balanced and almost every class spec was viable in pvp, unlike gw2... Who is currently in the process of, 6 years later, starting to talk about adding in more “high level build diversity”. > > > > > > Sorry, but gw2 has some of the poorest pvp and wvw balance designs out of many mmos. This game was made for pve. MO himself stated long ago, in the wvw section, that the team was “looking for balance wins that won’t screw over pve”... And raids are the primary consideration when new elites are designed... > > > > > > This game has struggled with balance and professions development since launch, and you may think that intentionally unbalanced mechanics are some super designs for mmos, but the failed esports dream should be an indication of how subpar things are for competitive gameplay. > > > > > > And no, I don’t want to be fiddling with life force when roaming, especially when you have stuff like 3 seconds 24k Mesmer bursts from stealth on my full trailblazer necro... The devs created unnecessary imbalances that ruin what good elements they created with combat and professions... > > > > > > I said nothing about Mesmer not needing to generate clones to get the benefits of shatter... You’re not reading things correctly... > > > > > > > Right. Since you don't seem to understand the difference between playstyle and fulfilling a role... > > > > The druid is defined by its astral force as a *playstyle* in which it has to build a resource, then dump it all for gain. That defines it as a druid. That defines the strategies and tactics you use with that spec > > > > It's CA *skills and traits* define are what define it as a healer/ buffer instead of a damage spec. I dont understand how this concept is hard to grasp. > > > > You specifically stated an example where you said you had to sit and watch your allies take damage because you were gated out of CA form. That is a player skill problem. I'm sorry. Get better. > > > > Yes this game has struggled with balance but homogenization will not fix that. Rs3 being a great example of a game that homogenized its combat (due to years of pvp complaints) , years into its life span, and ended up alienating over 50%of its player base (dwindling further everyday). > > > > You didn't address the spellbreaker example. > > > > I brought up mesmers because its the same principle. Clones are a mesmers resource they have to micro manage. Its the same concept for necros. You have to micro manage your resource because how that class plays. > > > > What you want is a new elite spec for necro that completely changes the profession mechanic. That's not, in and of itself, 100% unreasonable. That was *part* of the design intent of new elite specs. > > > > But to want all professions to get rid of resource management just because you specifically do not like it however, is unreasonable when it won't actually solve any of the problems you think it will. > > I’m sorry, but it’s hard to hold a discussion with someone who believes a resource mechanic defines the intended role. Druid is a healer spec. Removing astral force from the equation, and creating a stance, still makes Druid a heal spec... sans annoying mechanics. And making said change doesn’t homogenize anything, because the skills and traits are the defining factor... Your argument is like saying Druid and Daredevil staff skills are the same... > > GL Did you... did you really just reverse exactly what i literally spelled out for you? Wow. Indeed, Good Luck. Edit i changed my mind. I am going to make one finall effort, for you. I just said, and i quote: The resource. Defines. The playstyle. The playstyle Is not. The role. The playstyle, is building a resource to dump. The role, is to heal and buff. The playstyle, comes from generating the resource, and when you decide to dump it. The role, comes from what the skills physically do. The generating and dumping of a resource, is what druids do. Druid, is just, a name. The healing, is a result of the physical output by the skills. One. Does not. Cause. The other. Three resource mechanic is there to define how you go about accessing ca. You can either a) generate it slowly with damage output or b) generate it rapidly by healing. This defines whether you have to sacrifice your dps (burst in the case of pvp) to dedicate yourself to healing or only use the CA form for key moments. That is how the resource defines the playstyle. A time gate makes it so there's only 1 way to play: burst dps, since you're going to be locked out for a specific set of time anyways which is harder to balance since it inherently makes it impossible to be worth going full healing. I did not say, as per your example, a dare devil and druid would fill the same *role*. i did however say the would have the same *playstyle*. In this case the *playstyle* is just using your strongest skills off CD. One does this for damage, the other does this for healing. That's it. That is my best explanation i can give you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted June 18, 2018 Author Share Posted June 18, 2018 > @"Ertrak.9506" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"Ertrak.9506" said: > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > @"Ertrak.9506" said: > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Phosphorite.6192" said: > > > > > > > > > So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change. > > > > > > > > > > > > So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource? > > > > > > > > > > > > Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it. > > > > > > > > > > > > So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions? > > > > > > > > > > > > The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference. > > > > > > > > > > > > Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would have to agree with them and add to what they said: > > > > > > > > > > I would absolutely say that 40+ skills per class is not what makes them unique. Three resource management *is literally the profession unique mechanic that literally identifies how each class plays* > > > > > > > > > > Wirh that, each class becomes homogenized. Warriors simply have another skill to use. Revs just get nothing. Necros get +5 skills. Mesmers just have +5 skills (if u include cs). Everything looses its meaning. > > > > > > > > > > You seem to believe druid is grated by the resource, yet i would argue the 15s cool down is what you're actually gated by *which is seemingly what youre advocating for? *. Sorry but of your not generating full ca before the cd its a l2p issue, not a resource issue. Yes. I mean for pvp. > > > > > > > > > > You are also under the impression this will somehow bring better balance? You realize that your shroud necro skills are as powerful as they are because of the fact that they are gated by a resource? If this was implemented your skills would end up nerfed and you would further complain. > > > > > > > > > > Think about this actually critically. What happens to warrior skills if there's only a cool down? Did you think about why specifically the spellbreaker only gets 2 bars instead of 3? That's a balance decision. With only a cool down that makes burst skills on spellbreaker equally damaging as berserker, while also getting full counter abd the utility of the spellbreakers kit. This inherently makes the spellbreaker better in all scenarios and *actually harder to balance in the long run* > > > > > > > > > > Take a look at mesmers. Ppl complain they're already over powered. Now imagine they don't even have to generate clones to get the full power of a shatter *or ambush even*? > > > > > > > > > > See where this is going? > > > > > > > > > > Face value of this looks great from a bias point of view. Now actually think about it critically from every angle and realize the ramifications. > > > > > > > > > > Edit there's probably of spelling errors. I blame my phone. I'm sorry. > > > > > > > > Are you joking? If you think, for example, that astral force defines playing a heal support role... that is pretty irrational. So if we were to remove astral force and make CA a stance, you see zero difference between Druid and a daredevil? You see zero difference between a damage spec vs a heal support spec??? What? > > > > > > > > Later I’ll post a game that had 10x more build diversity and playable roles than gw2 will ever have... That didn’t have gating resources like gw2 has on certain professions... Combat was also 10x more balanced and almost every class spec was viable in pvp, unlike gw2... Who is currently in the process of, 6 years later, starting to talk about adding in more “high level build diversity”. > > > > > > > > Sorry, but gw2 has some of the poorest pvp and wvw balance designs out of many mmos. This game was made for pve. MO himself stated long ago, in the wvw section, that the team was “looking for balance wins that won’t screw over pve”... And raids are the primary consideration when new elites are designed... > > > > > > > > This game has struggled with balance and professions development since launch, and you may think that intentionally unbalanced mechanics are some super designs for mmos, but the failed esports dream should be an indication of how subpar things are for competitive gameplay. > > > > > > > > And no, I don’t want to be fiddling with life force when roaming, especially when you have stuff like 3 seconds 24k Mesmer bursts from stealth on my full trailblazer necro... The devs created unnecessary imbalances that ruin what good elements they created with combat and professions... > > > > > > > > I said nothing about Mesmer not needing to generate clones to get the benefits of shatter... You’re not reading things correctly... > > > > > > > > > > Right. Since you don't seem to understand the difference between playstyle and fulfilling a role... > > > > > > The druid is defined by its astral force as a *playstyle* in which it has to build a resource, then dump it all for gain. That defines it as a druid. That defines the strategies and tactics you use with that spec > > > > > > It's CA *skills and traits* define are what define it as a healer/ buffer instead of a damage spec. I dont understand how this concept is hard to grasp. > > > > > > You specifically stated an example where you said you had to sit and watch your allies take damage because you were gated out of CA form. That is a player skill problem. I'm sorry. Get better. > > > > > > Yes this game has struggled with balance but homogenization will not fix that. Rs3 being a great example of a game that homogenized its combat (due to years of pvp complaints) , years into its life span, and ended up alienating over 50%of its player base (dwindling further everyday). > > > > > > You didn't address the spellbreaker example. > > > > > > I brought up mesmers because its the same principle. Clones are a mesmers resource they have to micro manage. Its the same concept for necros. You have to micro manage your resource because how that class plays. > > > > > > What you want is a new elite spec for necro that completely changes the profession mechanic. That's not, in and of itself, 100% unreasonable. That was *part* of the design intent of new elite specs. > > > > > > But to want all professions to get rid of resource management just because you specifically do not like it however, is unreasonable when it won't actually solve any of the problems you think it will. > > > > I’m sorry, but it’s hard to hold a discussion with someone who believes a resource mechanic defines the intended role. Druid is a healer spec. Removing astral force from the equation, and creating a stance, still makes Druid a heal spec... sans annoying mechanics. And making said change doesn’t homogenize anything, because the skills and traits are the defining factor... Your argument is like saying Druid and Daredevil staff skills are the same... > > > > GL > > Did you... did you really just reverse exactly what i literally spelled out for you? Wow. > > Indeed, Good Luck. > > Edit i changed my mind. I am going to make one finall effort, for you. > > I just said, and i quote: > > The resource. > Defines. > The playstyle. > > The playstyle > Is not. > The role. > > The playstyle, is building a resource to dump. > > The role, is to heal and buff. > > The playstyle, comes from generating the resource, and when you decide to dump it. > > The role, comes from what the skills physically do. > > The generating and dumping of a resource, is what druids do. Druid, is just, a name. > > The healing, is a result of the physical output by the skills. > > One. Does not. Cause. The other. > > Three resource mechanic is there to define how you go about accessing ca. > > You can either a) generate it slowly with damage output or b) generate it rapidly by healing. > > This defines whether you have to sacrifice your dps (burst in the case of pvp) to dedicate yourself to healing or only use the CA form for key moments. > > That is how the resource defines the playstyle. > > A time gate makes it so there's only 1 way to play: burst dps, since you're going to be locked out for a specific set of time anyways which is harder to balance since it inherently makes it impossible to be worth going full healing. > > I did not say, as per your example, a dare devil and druid would fill the same *role*. i did however say the would have the same *playstyle*. In this case the *playstyle* is just using your strongest skills off CD. One does this for damage, the other does this for healing. > > That's it. That is my best explanation i can give you. You... "I would absolutely say that 40+ skills per class is not what makes them unique."... I can't have a productive conversation with your way of thinking. To think that resource mechanics is a some sort of "playstyle" is beyond me. The skills created by the devs define the role a player can access to play. Resources are a means to access X skills to perform X job, or result, in combat... Astral force doesn't heal people. CA skills heal people. Building the resources to get CA skills is not a "playstyle", it's a requirement to access those skills... And if you think resource mechanics, like on druid and necro, are such a great thing, then let's make sure we have those same types of resource gating designs on every core and elite profession build.. so we can improve what you consider a "playstyle". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ertrak.9506 Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 K gl i tried. I really did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"Phosphorite.6192" said: > > > > So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay. > > > > > > That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay. > > > > I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems. > > > > However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources. > > > > Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change. > > So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource? > > Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it. > > So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions? > > The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing. > > Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference. > > Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument. > Why should everyone who has been playing the game since release change how they play because you don't like something? You're whole "why should a player something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession?" is a faulty premise because I'm suggesting that if you don't like a particular mechanic then play a profession that suits your taste. There are plenty of professions that would suit your tastes. What you are suggesting is upending the entire game because YOU don't like something. You are suggesting that all the mechanics work the exact same way, stances, because you don't like it. I'm arguing that the current set up provides people who like resource management something to play with and people who don't like it something to play with it. If someone likes playing a mage type but hates the design then that's on them. Some people like the design. So should the rest of us suffer because of one person who doesn't like it? On no level can you argue against people playing different professions to avoid the resource mechanic when you are essentially arguing that the entire game be reworked to avoid having to use resources. So why should the rest of us be forced to change how we play the game just to suit you? I can use the entirety of your response to me to argue against your premise. And no, there is no sane reason. You have not effectively established that the game is not balanced due to resource-based mechanics. The only thing you've established is that you don't like it and that the rest of us should change our playstyles because of that. So no, I'm not arguing that resource is what defines their playstyle. There is a lot that defines a playstyle of which resource management is just one thing. Your entire argument from start to finish is fairly weak. So yeah, there is no sane or logical reasons to rework the entire game design six years into it's life to fix a balance issue you have not effectively established as being there. Also, you still opted to be insulting to an entire playstyle. You can't justify it by claiming you are talking about playing competitively. In case you missed it, several folks who have responded to you play competitively, myself included, who stand firmly against your suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted June 18, 2018 Author Share Posted June 18, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > @"Phosphorite.6192" said: > > > > > So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay. > > > > > > > > That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay. > > > > > > I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems. > > > > > > However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources. > > > > > > Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change. > > > > So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource? > > > > Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it. > > > > So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions? > > > > The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing. > > > > Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference. > > > > Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument. > > > > Why should everyone who has been playing the game since release change how they play because you don't like something? You're whole "why should a player something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession?" is a faulty premise because I'm suggesting that if you don't like a particular mechanic then play a profession that suits your taste. There are plenty of professions that would suit your tastes. What you are suggesting is upending the entire game because YOU don't like something. You are suggesting that all the mechanics work the exact same way, stances, because you don't like it. I'm arguing that the current set up provides people who like resource management something to play with and people who don't like it something to play with it. If someone likes playing a mage type but hates the design then that's on them. Some people like the design. So should the rest of us suffer because of one person who doesn't like it? On no level can you argue against people playing different professions to avoid the resource mechanic when you are essentially arguing that the entire game be reworked to avoid having to use resources. > > So why should the rest of us be forced to change how we play the game just to suit you? I can use the entirety of your response to me to argue against your premise. > > And no, there is no sane reason. You have not effectively established that the game is not balanced due to resource-based mechanics. The only thing you've established is that you don't like it and that the rest of us should change our playstyles because of that. So no, I'm not arguing that resource is what defines their playstyle. There is a lot that defines a playstyle of which resource management is just one thing. Your entire argument from start to finish is fairly weak. So yeah, there is no sane or logical reasons to rework the entire game design six years into it's life to fix a balance issue you have not effectively established as being there. > > Also, you still opted to be insulting to an entire playstyle. You can't justify it by claiming you are talking about playing competitively. In case you missed it, several folks who have responded to you play competitively, myself included, who stand firmly against your suggestion. > > You can’t understand that requiring resources to access certain skills is gating skills. Some have stricter resources than other, and that’s an unnecessary design that contributes to 1, of many, balance issues. You’re acting as if having some design changes, on certain professions and elites, is somehow a catastrophic change. It’s not, sorry. Most play the class and role they like, not the mechanic they like... Time to differentiate between the two. Removing a resource gate in selective areas is somehow associated with “suffering”? Please explain more? You haven’t provided any rational, or “sane”, reason why things shouldn’t change. Your rebuttal was that the game in in a later lifecycle... Like other game companies haven’t made revamps from original designs... Spin doctoring my “pve” comment doesn’t really work. Try reading the entire exchange and my full sentences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceofbass.2163 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 > @"Lunateric.3708" said: > oversimplification. This pretty much sums up this post. Mind you this is still an MMORPG and I feel you are just wanting it to have the mechanics of MOBAs or games like OW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > @"Phosphorite.6192" said: > > > > > > So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay. > > > > > > > > I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems. > > > > > > > > However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources. > > > > > > > > Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change. > > > > > > So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource? > > > > > > Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it. > > > > > > So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions? > > > > > > The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing. > > > > > > Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference. > > > > > > Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument. > > > > > > > Why should everyone who has been playing the game since release change how they play because you don't like something? You're whole "why should a player something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession?" is a faulty premise because I'm suggesting that if you don't like a particular mechanic then play a profession that suits your taste. There are plenty of professions that would suit your tastes. What you are suggesting is upending the entire game because YOU don't like something. You are suggesting that all the mechanics work the exact same way, stances, because you don't like it. I'm arguing that the current set up provides people who like resource management something to play with and people who don't like it something to play with it. If someone likes playing a mage type but hates the design then that's on them. Some people like the design. So should the rest of us suffer because of one person who doesn't like it? On no level can you argue against people playing different professions to avoid the resource mechanic when you are essentially arguing that the entire game be reworked to avoid having to use resources. > > > > So why should the rest of us be forced to change how we play the game just to suit you? I can use the entirety of your response to me to argue against your premise. > > > > And no, there is no sane reason. You have not effectively established that the game is not balanced due to resource-based mechanics. The only thing you've established is that you don't like it and that the rest of us should change our playstyles because of that. So no, I'm not arguing that resource is what defines their playstyle. There is a lot that defines a playstyle of which resource management is just one thing. Your entire argument from start to finish is fairly weak. So yeah, there is no sane or logical reasons to rework the entire game design six years into it's life to fix a balance issue you have not effectively established as being there. > > > > Also, you still opted to be insulting to an entire playstyle. You can't justify it by claiming you are talking about playing competitively. In case you missed it, several folks who have responded to you play competitively, myself included, who stand firmly against your suggestion. > > > > > > You can’t understand that requiring resources to access certain skills is gating skills. Some have stricter resources than other, and that’s an unnecessary design that contributes to 1, of many, balance issues. > > You’re acting as if having some design changes, on certain professions and elites, is somehow a catastrophic change. It’s not, sorry. > > Most play the class and role they like, not the mechanic they like... Time to differentiate between the two. > > Removing a resource gate in selective areas is somehow associated with “suffering”? Please explain more? > > You haven’t provided any rational, or “sane”, reason why things shouldn’t change. Your rebuttal was that the game in in a later lifecycle... Like other game companies haven’t made revamps from original designs... > > Spin doctoring my “pve” comment doesn’t really work. Try reading the entire exchange and my full sentences. Yeah, no I'm not explaining anything about suffering. You have done ZERO work to establish an actual imbalance in gameplay or design. You've just told people that they don't understand or can't understand. I don't need to provide a rational or a reason for anything. I'm not the one arguing for a change. You are. The burden of proof is on you. You are the one that has to provide a sane and logical rational beyond you not liking gating mechanics. You have to illustrate exactly how an imbalance is created and why that imbalance is specifically related to resource management. You also need to establish why it's an actual imbalance and not a poor play style, inability to manage your resources properly, or the professions just not being suited to you. You have yet to actually formulate an argument, true counterpoints or counter-arguments, or a sufficient rebuttal to anything anyone has said. You have continually deflected and attempted to shift the burden of proof from yourself to other people. However, that's not how a discussion works. The person who makes the claim must also provide the warrant for the proposed change. Claiming it fixes game imbalances in competitive play (while at the same time trying to slight PvE play) is not a sufficient warrant without you establishing to a reasonable degree that whatever game imbalance you talk of is related to resource management or that what you speak of is actually an imbalance. The closest you have gotten on that mark is complaining that a Druid is not being able to heal his buddies during combat, but that's not a game imbalance but improper management of your abilities. You have made the claim that it acts as a gate without even remotely establishing that gate as a bad thing or an imbalance. You have pretty much constructed an argument from ignorance. That may work with your group of friends but I'm actually trained in formal debate and discussions. You have done nothing to build a case, prove your case, or provide a reason why it's needed. I actually don't have to do anything. I can opt to counter anything you say but I'm actually not required to do anything other than disagree. The burden of proof does not rest on me since I did not make the inherent claim that started this discussion. So spin all the tricks you wish but they aren't going to fly with me. I have consistently pointed out that you have not provided any evidence for your case, a point to which you have dodged and instead attempted to shift the conversation back onto what I haven't proven. That tactic may work with your group of friends, but it doesn't work on me. So prove your case. Prove an actual imbalance. Prove how stances fix this imbalance. Illustrate how what you are complaining about is an actual gaming problem and not just your inability to manage your resources properly. At present no one has stood in agreement with you, despite your erroneous claim that people would welcome the change. Provide the sane and logical rational because at present all we have is you complaining about something you don't like and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diak Atoli.2085 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 I quite like the resource management aspect of the professions I play; they make the gameplay more fun for me. As such, I prefer that they remain as they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottBroChill.3254 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 I would absolutely dislike further homogenization of the classes. Having a complex mechanic or one that requires more management allows for new and different types of skills and playstyles that can consist of stronger and more complex skills that enriches combat and class identity. Like others have said, if you turn these mechanics into just regular old cooldown skills you would have to nerf them immensley. Holosmiths forge mode would become nothing more than a flashy looking kit for engis instead of a direct power upgrade dependant on resource management that keeps it from being op. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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