Necromancer's Depth

[Lily.1935]

> @kKagari.6804 said:

> The current shroud _is_ designed to not have utilities either, its balanced around this, to have the utilities be placed on the bar is essentially the same power creep.

>

> Life force and legend energy is a vastly different concept. Shroud as a mechanic is why they are different, when you go into shroud you are currently given benefits, and given disadvantages to have it balance. .'. it is not compulsory to go into shroud, it is optional. If you look at good revenants, (not the current ventari bunkers, not that they are not good, they are simply an anomaly to this case) they will switch legends as soon as possible, because you get 50 free energy for doing so, and to not do so is wasting a resource. Revenant energy is all about making as much use of 100 energy (50 upon switching, 50 in the next 10 seconds) before switching Legend to do it all over again. .i.e the focus is not on conserving energy, its on consuming energy. (in fact, i think its brilliant design)

>

> That is NOT the concept we have of shroud at the moment. So for starters, I disagree that we are anywhere similar.

>

> If you look above, I agreed in wanting utilities in shroud, but I can't see that happening because of balance.

 

It does make it similar to the Revenant because you do get that utility swap with your suggestion. And I've mentioned that multiple times now. I don't know how I can be clearer about that, I can explain it any further than what I have. If you don't get it by this point, I'll leave it as is and hopefully someone else could explain it to you, because I'm at a lose here. I have No idea how to explain this to you.

 

Mine on the other hand increase the choices the player has to make. While some skills might not be that great right now, they might be really good while you are in shroud. An example of this would be Signet of Vampirism. Underwhelming skill, but its passive is actually really good in combination with shroud. I've already tested that with the signet trait and it works alright. Nothing amazing or game changing, but it would help to alleviate the issue of "Consume condition only". Beyond that just because you wouldn't get the heal it could also be useful with "Your soul is mine" which gives you life force and if the cost is weighed appropriately with it could also be an interesting choice you normally wouldn't take. Utility gets better options too as Taking something like Plague signet which normally has the balance of it where it doesn't impact you while you're in shroud, it now does meaning that the skill becomes more of a risk to take. The Over tuned cost of Blood is power becomes a bit more manageable in shroud.

furthermore the cost of dropping shroud vs burning through some of your valuable life force is a very interesting decision. You could drop and use your stunbreak without a problem, putting shroud on cool down, or you could stay in shroud and burn the life force which if its as high as my thoughts would be, could be its own very dangerous risk. But the ability to take risks and be rewarded for it is good game design.

Adding their own new utility to that doesn't increase the risk of using shroud or life force. It decreases it. You're taking damage, you have a choice. You use your skills outside of shroud to stunbreak or enter shroud and stunbreak, tank a whole bunch of damage, also have the option to block and remove conditions while still having the ability to apply control and pressure. Which would you choose? The answer should be readily obvious to anyone. You'd enter shroud. No question. If this was to be included shroud's power would need to be toned down. It already feels too weak in terms of its CC and damage as it is. And your change would require that it be even weaker to maintain balance. My suggestion doesn't. It allows room for arena net to increase the potential DPS and support the necromancer and reaper could pump out because it would they would be sacrificing their defenses for that utility.

Without shroud, necromancer is extremely squishy. Having utility cost life force in shroud would be almost like sacrificing health for power. There is absolutely No sacrifice in your suggestion. It doesn't create interesting gameplay for the necromancer and their opponents. It adds further layers of defense on top of a really defensive and rather passive mechanic. Mine sacrifices defenses for utility. I do agree we need better defenses, but we don't need more of it.

[kKagari.6804]

And I've been saying, theres more to playing Revenant than simply just thinking of it as two utility sets of skills. Just because you can switch utilities does not make you a revenant. Engineers arent elementalists because they can switch several weapon sets with skills.

 

Your rebuttal suggests that we are half way there on being a revenant already, which isn't true.

 

I get that you like your idea, and thats fine. We can agree to disagree.

[Lily.1935]

> @kKagari.6804 said:

> And I've been saying, theres more to playing Revenant than simply just thinking of it as two utility sets of skills. Just because you can switch utilities does not make you a revenant. Engineers arent elementalists because they can switch several weapon sets with skills.

>

> Your rebuttal suggests that we are half way there on being a revenant already, which isn't true.

>

> I get that you like your idea, and thats fine. We can agree to disagree.

 

You're missing so much of the point, My "rebuttal" is that it makes us too similar. I didn't not say we are half way to being a revenant, that is a clear strawman of my argument. Its not that I like my idea, its that I've thought about every single possibility and analyzed them extensively over the past 5 years. Utility in shroud was the clear answer. I've even looked into your idea about 4.5 years ago, and it just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. As you have displayed by not addressing the issues I brought up but rather ignoring that I mentioned them.

[kKagari.6804]

> @Lily.1935 said:

> > @kKagari.6804 said:

> > And I've been saying, theres more to playing Revenant than simply just thinking of it as two utility sets of skills. Just because you can switch utilities does not make you a revenant. Engineers arent elementalists because they can switch several weapon sets with skills.

> >

> > Your rebuttal suggests that we are half way there on being a revenant already, which isn't true.

> >

> > I get that you like your idea, and thats fine. We can agree to disagree.

>

> You're missing so much of the point, My "rebuttal" is that it makes us too similar. I didn't not say we are half way to being a revenant, that is a clear strawman of my argument. Its not that I like my idea, its that I've thought about every single possibility and analyzed them extensively over the past 5 years. Utility in shroud was the clear answer. I've even looked into your idea about 4.5 years ago, and it just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. As you have displayed by not addressing the issues I brought up but rather ignoring that I mentioned them.

 

Frankly I'm not invested in continuing the discussion with you, I thought that was clear in my last post. Apologies if that ruffles your feathers.

And no, I'm not missing the point regarding the revenant. Your rebuttal implies that because utilities are being switched, we are becoming similar, which I disagree with. The revenant is much more about the consistent use of energy rather than simply switching toolsets.

 

Honestly though, until you can actually test your 'theories' in live situations, which, understandably no-one can aside from Arenanent, your arguments hold just as much water as anyone elses. 5 years, 4.5 years, or even two years ago no one would've imagined that the next necromancer spec removes shroud entirely. Yet, here we are.

 

Anyhow, you continue your crusade, evidently you are more invested in it than I am.

[Lily.1935]

> @kKagari.6804 said:

> Honestly though, until you can actually test your 'theories' in live situations, which, understandably no-one can aside from Arenanent, your arguments hold just as much water as anyone elses. 5 years, 4.5 years, or even two years ago no one would've imagined that the next necromancer spec removes shroud entirely. Yet, here we are.

>

 

Actually the suggestion to remove shroud has been around for 5 years. Although elite specs haven't been the removal of shroud has. Also to add to that, the request to make shroud into a "reaper' with a scythe has also been around for 5 years.

 

[Thefire.1583]

fist ty @"Lily.1935" for the great post

I agree we should move the signet trait down love to have a signet necro build without feeling gimped taking close to death.

few things Traits wise for core necro that we might want to look at in my opinion

1. **death magic**

a. reapers protection to long of a cool down and does verry little in the long run

b.soul comprehension : has no real benefit in pvp and wvw (unless its zerg v zerg)

c. Unholy Sanctuary: great live saver. If you have over 60%

2. **Blood magic **

a. quickening Thirst : the cool down reduction contradicts that the dagger is a melee weapon

b.unholy martyr: feels weak as a grand master trait

3**.curses**

a.lingering curse: feels weaker then the other two grand master trait

4.**soul Reaping**

a.spectral mastery: spectral skills don't make it feel good to take

b.Foot in the grave would love to see it pulse

5.**spite**

a grand master trait that can compete with close to death in the power game

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @Thefire.1583 said:

> fist ty @"Lily.1935" for the great post

> I agree we should move the signet trait down love to have a signet necro build without feeling kitten taking close to death.

> few things Traits wise for core necro that we might want to look at in my opinion

> 1. **death magic**

> a. reapers protection to long of a cool down and does verry little in the long run

> b.soul comprehension : has no real benefit in pvp and wvw (unless its zerg v zerg)

> c. Unholy Sanctuary: great live saver. If you have over 60%

> 2. **Blood magic **

> a. quickening Thirst : the cool down reduction contradicts that the dagger is a melee weapon

> b.unholy martyr: feels weak as a grand master trait

> 3**.curses**

> a.lingering curse: feels weaker then the other two grand master trait

> 4.**soul Reaping**

> a.spectral mastery: spectral skills don't make it feel good to take

> b.Foot in the grave would love to see it pulse

> 5.**spite**

> a grand master trait that can compete with close to death in the power game

>

 

A lot of what you say is wrong because you don't look at the whole picture behind those traits.

 

- _Soul comprehension_ issue is more that either you swim in life force and the trait is useless or life force is rare and the trait give barely any life force. Whatever the gamemode this trait will always be frustrating because of that.

 

- Dagger also have an off-hand and I should point that only the auto attack is melee.

 

- _Unholy martyr_ is both strong and weak and have been nerfed to it's current state because if used in a MM build it can indeed become way to strong. In short it's balanced so that it's not to strong in PvP while it's irrelevant in PvE and mostly useless in WvW.

 

- _Lingering curse_ is a pure dps trait and it's a troublesome trait because it can make or break your dps. In PvE it's often a "must take" trait due to how overpowered the trait is. In PvP/WvW where there is more cleanse, it's impact is less impressive but that's all.

 

- _Spectral mastery_ is a strong trait... Well it would be a strong trait if it wasn't competing against _vital persistence_. The real issue is VP which anet seem to always put in the limelight by giving it "must have" flavored features. The changes to VP would have happened a year ago, I'm pretty sure that _spectral mastery_ would have found it's public by now. However, the vitality bonus on VP make it a really interesting option for the upcoming scourge while scourge will have very few use for the spectral skills.

 

- I'm pretty sure that spite need a lot more than a trait that can compete with _close to death_. _Close to death_ is good but it shine more in PvE than it can shine in PvP and WvW.

 

It's not that the trait that you talk about wouldn't need to be looked at but the way you put it would break them for their specific actual use. Because, yes, most of them already have use in the game at the moment.

[Aktium.9506]

> @Rym.1469 said:

> Just noticed the latest response:

> > @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > * Health Sacrifice - This would be thematic to necromancers and it's something we've experimented with in the past, unfortunately it didn't end up playing very well. The main reason it doesn't work too well is because of the prevalence of healing currently in the game. With large parties and dedicated healing specs in the game it's very difficult to have health sacrifice values that are fair in all situations. Balancing lifesteal to offset a health sacrifice cost ends up blowing out sustain as soon as any outside healing gets involved. Scourge's life force cost on skills is one way we've found to have a pseudo-health cost since it can't be influenced by outside factors, although it doesn't have the same feel as true health cost would.

>

> As I said, losing HP is tricky balance, but maybe the *Reverse Barrier* could work - as it isn't reliant on other players and is more controlable&elegant. It would be interesting to see this in play coupled with health treshold effects/triggers in particular. If max HP was calculated dynamically, this sort of sacrafice mechanic would allow bonuses like Scholar runes to persist. If it wasn't then we could maybe trigger some defensive effects with it on purpose - like Last Rites or Last Gasp . kitten, with Reverse Barriers we could bring back GW1 Protective Spirit for Necromancers even.

> Reverse Barriers as sacrafices, applying Reverse Barriers to enemies fuctioning like dynamic Deep Wound condition from GW1, Protective Spirit, playing with health tresholds and some unique traits&utilities that further explore it. Sounds like a bonkers Elite Spec.

 

I think this Reverse Barrier mechanic would be super rad. If we do add anything to increase Necromancer's depth this is it. Since it adds another use of Barrier as well and the sustain problem would not be a problem since Barrier application is much more sparse than healing is.

[Lily.1935]

> @Aktium.9506 said:

> > @Rym.1469 said:

> > Just noticed the latest response:

> > > @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > > * Health Sacrifice - This would be thematic to necromancers and it's something we've experimented with in the past, unfortunately it didn't end up playing very well. The main reason it doesn't work too well is because of the prevalence of healing currently in the game. With large parties and dedicated healing specs in the game it's very difficult to have health sacrifice values that are fair in all situations. Balancing lifesteal to offset a health sacrifice cost ends up blowing out sustain as soon as any outside healing gets involved. Scourge's life force cost on skills is one way we've found to have a pseudo-health cost since it can't be influenced by outside factors, although it doesn't have the same feel as true health cost would.

> >

> > As I said, losing HP is tricky balance, but maybe the *Reverse Barrier* could work - as it isn't reliant on other players and is more controlable&elegant. It would be interesting to see this in play coupled with health treshold effects/triggers in particular. If max HP was calculated dynamically, this sort of sacrafice mechanic would allow bonuses like Scholar runes to persist. If it wasn't then we could maybe trigger some defensive effects with it on purpose - like Last Rites or Last Gasp . kitten, with Reverse Barriers we could bring back GW1 Protective Spirit for Necromancers even.

> > Reverse Barriers as sacrafices, applying Reverse Barriers to enemies fuctioning like dynamic Deep Wound condition from GW1, Protective Spirit, playing with health tresholds and some unique traits&utilities that further explore it. Sounds like a bonkers Elite Spec.

>

> I think this Reverse Barrier mechanic would be super rad. If we do add anything to increase Necromancer's depth this is it. Since it adds another use of Barrier as well and the sustain problem would not be a problem since Barrier application is much more sparse than healing is.

 

sounds a bit weird to me. But if it worked like how Earth bound damage worked, perhaps that could be interesting.

[Lily.1935]

One thing that people have brought up that I feel I didn't look at too much was skill use and how they interact with each other. i mentioned depth, but failed to mention this. Although i feel my idea would work fairly well to help promote depth, it wasn't the only thing that could help do that, and I probably should have expressed this more.

 

Combo fields along with internal and external synergy was something that the necromancer lacks in. Although Necromancers do have blast, projectile a whirl and leap finisher they don't quite have as much compared to other professions. Although I feel that's not much of a problem, the issue starts to become apparent once you factor in that they lack field diversity as well as other synergies such as traits that have value with the party. The skills they do have that have external synergies tend to be fairly underwhelming in their execution, such as well of power and skills that have group use but lack internal synergy such as plague signet, which has a dual function as a stunbreak which can negate its function as a party support element as well as its flaw that the core class doesn't gain a real benefit from taking those conditions.

 

Its examples like these that others have been talking about that I should really have touched on more as well.

[Rym.1469]

> @Lily.1935 said:

> > @Aktium.9506 said:

> > > @Rym.1469 said:

> > > Just noticed the latest response:

> > > > @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > > > * Health Sacrifice - This would be thematic to necromancers and it's something we've experimented with in the past, unfortunately it didn't end up playing very well. The main reason it doesn't work too well is because of the prevalence of healing currently in the game. With large parties and dedicated healing specs in the game it's very difficult to have health sacrifice values that are fair in all situations. Balancing lifesteal to offset a health sacrifice cost ends up blowing out sustain as soon as any outside healing gets involved. Scourge's life force cost on skills is one way we've found to have a pseudo-health cost since it can't be influenced by outside factors, although it doesn't have the same feel as true health cost would.

> > >

> > > As I said, losing HP is tricky balance, but maybe the *Reverse Barrier* could work - as it isn't reliant on other players and is more controlable&elegant. It would be interesting to see this in play coupled with health treshold effects/triggers in particular. If max HP was calculated dynamically, this sort of sacrafice mechanic would allow bonuses like Scholar runes to persist. If it wasn't then we could maybe trigger some defensive effects with it on purpose - like Last Rites or Last Gasp . kitten, with Reverse Barriers we could bring back GW1 Protective Spirit for Necromancers even.

> > > Reverse Barriers as sacrafices, applying Reverse Barriers to enemies fuctioning like dynamic Deep Wound condition from GW1, Protective Spirit, playing with health tresholds and some unique traits&utilities that further explore it. Sounds like a bonkers Elite Spec.

> >

> > I think this Reverse Barrier mechanic would be super rad. If we do add anything to increase Necromancer's depth this is it. Since it adds another use of Barrier as well and the sustain problem would not be a problem since Barrier application is much more sparse than healing is.

>

> sounds a bit weird to me. But if it worked like how Earth bound damage worked, perhaps that could be interesting.

 

Just think of Barrier mechanic, but instead of temporarily increasing your max health pool, it temporarily lowers it by a set amount. Then, like Barrier, it "decays", restoring missing health.

It completly nullifies the need of increased health restoration compared to hp sacrafice, serves the same "sacrafice" purpose (lowering defenses for using powerful skills) and is always dangerous trade-off, rather than something that can be nullified by an ally healer.

 

I would have some ideas to go with it. For example, sort of Dota 2 lifestealer's infest ability, but usable on players. Going into enemy's body/linking it somehow, allowing Necro to temporarily share/transfer all reverse barrier+self-inflicted conditions to the target.

[Kahrgan.7401]

Can we get a different developer than Robert Gee? :(

[Maunzi.3764]

Kahrgan, remember the kid that asks mom for snacks, gets "no" for the answer, and then runs to dad? Don't be that kid.

 

The thread will likely be read. The devs are aware of our feedback. But change takes time.

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

True depth comes from multiple viable build all of which have their own strengths. What's missing today is a positive balance for power reaper which if anything is the build suffering most at this point. I have always enjoyed this build and will likely stick to it but at the end of the day it truly does need some TLC and i am speaking purely with respect to PvE. If hesitation is coming due to PvP then please do the right thing and split the skills that would tilt it in PvP and allow it to be, at the very least respectable dps in a PvE situation.

[Lily.1935]

> @Maunzi.3764 said:

> Kahrgan, remember the kid that asks mom for snacks, gets "no" for the answer, and then runs to dad? Don't be that kid.

>

> The thread will likely be read. The devs are aware of our feedback. But change takes time.

 

Oh, absolutely! Especially considering the changes we are asking for are quite extensive. Even ignoring my Utility shroud change, the requests here are no small task. But I'll throw more money at the game if Necromancer's depth problem gets solved. Heck, I'd love to have like, 3 necromancers. one for Reaper, Scourge and core necromancer.

[Lexan.5930]

> @Lily.1935 said:

> > @Maunzi.3764 said:

> > Kahrgan, remember the kid that asks mom for snacks, gets "no" for the answer, and then runs to dad? Don't be that kid.

> >

> > The thread will likely be read. The devs are aware of our feedback. But change takes time.

>

> Oh, absolutely! Especially considering the changes we are asking for are quite extensive. Even ignoring my Utility shroud change, the requests here are no small task. But I'll throw more money at the game if Necromancer's depth problem gets solved. Heck, I'd love to have like, 3 necromancers. one for Reaper, Scourge and core necromancer.

 

if we had viable builds for each i would spend more money on gems just to have more races as necro's because i love playing necro. Would love a viable minion build, might be something with scourge if the might barrier buffs work on minions. Then all that might gen as a power necro might actually boost dps a little (i can hope :p). plus i love minions

[Lily.1935]

> @Lexan.5930 said:

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > > @Maunzi.3764 said:

> > > Kahrgan, remember the kid that asks mom for snacks, gets "no" for the answer, and then runs to dad? Don't be that kid.

> > >

> > > The thread will likely be read. The devs are aware of our feedback. But change takes time.

> >

> > Oh, absolutely! Especially considering the changes we are asking for are quite extensive. Even ignoring my Utility shroud change, the requests here are no small task. But I'll throw more money at the game if Necromancer's depth problem gets solved. Heck, I'd love to have like, 3 necromancers. one for Reaper, Scourge and core necromancer.

>

> if we had viable builds for each i would spend more money on gems just to have more races as necro's because i love playing necro. Would love a viable minion build, might be something with scourge if the might barrier buffs work on minions. Then all that might gen as a power necro might actually boost dps a little (i can hope :p). plus i love minions

 

Minions are such a difficult topic. I've been looking for a way to solve the minion problem for years. I do have another post discussing the issues with summons as a whole, which includes turrets where I talk about their lack of power and counterplay that should be in the game to combat a summoner's build if it were to get out of hand. I plan on making a dedicated minion post in the future, but the primary issue is how to solve the problem.

 

Life force cost? the Ammo system? Just increasing the numbers? Its really hard to determine what's the correct path to go. And I've been looking to other games for inspiration in solving this dilemma. One game had a really elegant solution but I'm not sure that it would work here. They solved the problem by both having exploitable corpses but made it so the player could spawn corpses through other abilities. However, I don't know if that could work here.

[Plastazote.7914]

Changing the LF mechanic would go a long way to making Necro engaging since it is our main resource.

 

My suggestion is that all weapon skills build LF (by a different amount correlated with the CD of the skill) and utilities consume LF. You can only go into shroud by hitting a minimum LF threshold. Once in shroud, LF will steadily decrease (faster than it currently does). On the flip side, using shroud skills will build LF and slow the inevitable decay towards zero LF where you are booted out of shroud. Currently your choice is to do nothing and soak damage or use skills and lose shroud even quicker (the choice isn't fun). There is no hope of prolonging shroud. Utility skills will be available in shroud but still cost LF.

 

More related to what others have discussed, shroud is underwhelming and doesn't feel useful. Core shroud doesn't increase damage significantly and can be clunky to use. Reaper is meant to be tanky but just ends up getting CC'd to death. On top of all that we have no access to utilities. It feels like a double punishment. I'm all for allowing utilities being available in shroud (even at an increased %LF as suggested) but I think shroud needs to feel useful first. If not, I don't see a problem with just allowing utilities to be used in shroud with no LF cost.

[Lily.1935]

> @Plastazote.7914 said:

> Changing the LF mechanic would go a long way to making Necro engaging since it is our main resource.

>

> My suggestion is that all weapon skills build LF (by a different amount correlated with the CD of the skill) and utilities consume LF. You can only go into shroud by hitting a minimum LF threshold. Once in shroud, LF will steadily decrease (faster than it currently does). On the flip side, using shroud skills will build LF and slow the inevitable decay towards zero LF where you are booted out of shroud. Currently your choice is to do nothing and soak damage or use skills and lose shroud even quicker (the choice isn't fun). There is no hope of prolonging shroud. Utility skills will be available in shroud but still cost LF.

>

> More related to what others have discussed, shroud is underwhelming and doesn't feel useful. Core shroud doesn't increase damage significantly and can be clunky to use. Reaper is meant to be tanky but just ends up getting CC'd to death. On top of all that we have no access to utilities. It feels like a double punishment. I'm all for allowing utilities being available in shroud (even at an increased %LF as suggested) but I think shroud needs to feel useful first. If not, I don't see a problem with just allowing utilities to be used in shroud with no LF cost.

 

I never agreed with the suggestion to make all skills generate life force. And I never will. Its not a good design for necromancer, it feels to reliable and not nearly as calculated. So in terms of that suggestion, I'm sorry to say but I can't agree with it. I understand that you wont agree with me on that, but that's okay. We don't have to agree.

 

As for the Utility in shroud costing life force? Well, the reason for that is two fold. Balance and customization.

* First lets talk about Balance. As it stands skills in shroud could be quite potent. Without that life force cost the choice between casting skills out of shroud vs in shroud becomes pretty one sided. "Should I cast my skill in my safe cushiony shroud that gives me a whole bunch of passive buffs that the skill can benefit from? Or cast it outside of shroud where its more dangerous and I get no benefits?" The answer to that should be obvious. The balance between that choice is heavily weight in the favor of "In shroud". Life force cost can make that choice much harder to make, but very rewarding for those who understand the pros and cons of their actions. Another aspect of this is it offers another means to control necromancer skills if they were to get out of hand in shroud or be too weak. Raising or lowering the life force cost of skills as per their skill strength. Without this cost there really isn't a way to balance it in a way that couldn't just cripple the skill for out of shroud use which isn't were we would want to be. It helps to control balance.

* The second aspect is Customization. With skills costing life force and an entire elite spec built around spending life force we could now afford to have traits that modify the cost, effect or add things to skills that they otherwise wouldn't have access to. This could make something like a power Reaper which normally has horrible DPS suddenly gain access to trait tools that could modify their outgoing DPS and burn through that shroud extremely quick, allowing them to balance life for gen with life force management. One example of a trait I used above was a rework of Rending shroud that made it pulse an aoe damage when spending life force. Well, reaper has these shouts that can get a pretty good cool down reduction which could combo nicely with a melee reaper build that burns through life force to boost its DPS intentionally. Another example of something that could be changed is Life from death. A trait I really like, but I feel lacks impact. I'd like to see its healing and revive ability reduces by about half but changed to a skill that applies its healing around you(and your shade) when you spend life force as opposed to entering and exiting. Suddenly we have a unique Healer Scourge who burns through her own life force to heal allies. I don't ever think it would replace a Druid, but it would be really fun to play in something like WvW or Fractals.

 

There are tones of possibilities that arena net could go with in terms of customization and balance with this rout. They could provide us with the Support and DPS we've been longing for while keeping us from getting out of hand. And that's what Arena net is afraid of, the necromancer getting out of hand like it did in the Alpha of GW2.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

> @Lily.1935 said:

> The skills they do have that have external synergies tend to be fairly underwhelming in their execution, such as **well of power** and skills that have group use but lack internal synergy such as plague signet, which has a dual function as a stunbreak which can negate its function as a party support element as well as its flaw that the core class doesn't gain a real benefit from taking those conditions.

 

I agree that condi transfer off allies gameplay aspect is in the dumps. We both lack **strong, active** condi pulls as well a proper tools to subdue their effects so we can do somthing with them before they do "something" with us.

 

But what's this about well of power being underwhelming? I use it all the time in spvp and it's diamonds. Not only a stunbreak but a ticking condi cleanse. This is crucial vs burn guards, and generally any opponent that applies few conditions but in huge amounts. Plague sending won't activate if 1 or 2 conditions are on your regardless the stacks. Normal cleanses don't do much - if you cleanse too early, they'll have enough new burn stacks to roast you. Wait too long and you'll be toast before you know it. A bursty condi cleanse doesn't fare well vs strong, continual condi pressure. And here is where well of power comes in allowing me to wipe the floor with them.

 

So it's different, but i don't know why you say it's underperforming.

 

 

[Lily.1935]

> @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > The skills they do have that have external synergies tend to be fairly underwhelming in their execution, such as **well of power** and skills that have group use but lack internal synergy such as plague signet, which has a dual function as a stunbreak which can negate its function as a party support element as well as its flaw that the core class doesn't gain a real benefit from taking those conditions.

>

> I agree that condi transfer off allies gameplay aspect is in the dumps. We both lack **strong, active** condi pulls as well a proper tools to subdue their effects so we can do somthing with them before they do "something" with us.

>

> But what's this about well of power being underwhelming? I use it all the time in spvp and it's diamonds. Not only a stunbreak but a ticking condi cleanse. This is crucial vs burn guards, and generally any opponent that applies few conditions but in huge amounts. Plague sending won't activate if 1 or 2 conditions are on your regardless the stacks. Normal cleanses don't do much - if you cleanse too early, they'll have enough new burn stacks to roast you. Wait too long and you'll be toast before you know it. A bursty condi cleanse doesn't fare well vs strong, continual condi pressure. And here is where well of power comes in allowing me to wipe the floor with them.

>

> So it's different, but i don't know why you say it's underperforming.

>

>

 

I don't see it being used much. Being good against a burn guard makes sense, though I wouldn't say that it preforms well because of this aspect. With PoF on the horizon the scourge's Nefarious Favor will likely out preform this utility skill and not take up a valuable slot. Nefarious Favor will have a 4 second cool down since everyone will be running vital persistence along with the utility slot for that would be better replaced with Trail of Anguish which almost has half the cool down and also will provide swiftness and stability. Don't know if that stability is given to allies, but we'll see. If it does there will be no question on which you should take. When I say it under preforms, this is why. It didn't take much to replace what it does with something a bit more consistent and much stronger.

 

Beyond that I was also comparing it to support that other professions provide. Other professions can also remove conditions on mass like necromancer, or grant resistance. Some provide blocks and evades that can aid allies. Well of power is one of our few support options. Where as a Druid or Elementalist has plenty of ways to remove conditions while also providing healing or some other benefit that isn't as random as well of power.

 

By the way, I'm not knocking you for using it. By all means, use what we've got.

[Plastazote.7914]

@"Lily.1935"

I think you misread the suggestion. The idea of changing the LF mechanic is to create depth by having forces that build and use LF available at the same time in and out of shroud. This creates a tug of war situation between the forces and allows more engaging choices for gameplay.

 

Out of shroud: Skills primarily used for damage (usually weapon skills) build LF. Skills primarily used for other purposes (usually utilities) use LF. The LF built or used is roughly correlated with it's CD. For example, auto attacks have a CD of 1-2 sec and would build 3-4 LF. Skills 2-5 usually have an 8-10 sec CD and would build 10-15 LF. Utilities have a 15 to 45 sec CD and would use 10-30 LF. Overall, LF generation out of shroud > than usage so players can reach a LF cap (lets say 100) to be able to go into shroud. Players have the choice between pushing damage to get into shroud quicker or use utilites like a blink or stunblock knowing shroud will be delayed.

 

In shroud: The goal of shrould would be to create windows of power or increased function. It's a window of time where you feel like a beastly capable DPS, tank or support. Not just a safe zone HP sponge. In shroud LF would decay quicker ie. last 15 seconds if you don't use any skills and aren't hit. Shroud skills generate LF and can increase shroud uptime to 30 sec with skill and practice. At the same time, you can still use utilities but they cost LF and reduce your overall time in shroud which is undesireable because it's your window where you have high damage or tankiness.

 

The goal would be that players build up to shroud 2/3 of the time and are in shrould 1/3 of the time. In and out of shroud there is always factors that build and use LF to add depth by creating interesting choices that affect the LF resource tug of war.

[Dadnir.5038]

It's better to not put LF cost everywhere, revenant are a great exemple of how bad that can be. I wouldn't be against a trait that put a low LF cost on utility skills to add a powerfull damage component on use as long as LF is used but, I doubt that anet would have the same idea as me when I say "low" and powerfull". I'd even say that they might end up delivering high LF cost for pitiable damage component. (Just look at how good of a buff they gave to _serpent siphon_, the scepter #2 skill already look stronger than it does)

 

That's how high my trust in them is.

[Plastazote.7914]

The most effective way to add depth to a profession is to change the way it manages it's resources since that affects every aspect of how the profession plays. It may not be the easiest way and it could be risky to tie everything into LF. I see your point that if it isn't balanced correctly, LF changes could further hamstring Necros but I also see the potential to add depth to gameplay as Lily talked about earlier. It's especially exciting since it changes core Necro and permanently adds fun gameplay to the whole class and not just a future E-spec. Trying to remain optimistic but not going to hold my breath for it either.

[Druitt.7629]

> @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

> * self-inflict to put himself into combat for "I'm outta enemies" life force generation

> * consume conditions for strongest anti-condi heal ingame

> * transfer them

> * convert them to boons

> * spread (and double them if he used condi AoE) with epidemic

> * pull them off allies to self for more boon conversion or transfers or just being helpful (how many condi cleanses have 1200 range?)

> * use them to reduce damage he takes (putrid defense, corrupter's fervor, cold shoulder)

> * use them to heal one self off their damage (parasitic contagion)

 

Call me a newb, but this is an education-in-a-post for me. I'm nervous about this conversation in that I've always avoided self-damage. (Probably because the risk has not given me any great rewards in GW2.) But I never thought about your first point and never thought about the 1200-yard range on your sixth point, and ... Thanks!