Can we just remove class stacking in ranked already

[Kraitan.8476]

Its fucking dumb that every game has 2 of X class, 2 of Y class and maybe 1 other if you're lucky.

Doesn't matter if you win or lose, it's aids nonetheless. I fought 2 mirages at close with over 10 clones coming at me, after a minute of aids I just thought to myself, fuck it, I'll leave & give them the point, this ain't worth it.

[Namless.4028]

I prefer stacned classes over 10 minutes q time or even more blowout matches

[MarshallLaw.9260]

> @"Kraitan.8476" said:

> Its kitten dumb that every game has 2 of X class, 2 of Y class and maybe 1 other if you're lucky.

> Doesn't matter if you win or lose, it's aids nonetheless. I fought 2 mirages at close with over 10 clones coming at me, after a minute of aids I just thought to myself, kitten it, I'll leave & give them the point, this ain't worth it.

 

We've had threads about this already, but I understand your concerns.

The current MM system aims not to stack multiples of a classes but there are compromises made when there are fewer people queuing in certain bracket (eg silver/gold/plat). This is to reduce the variance in team MMR and prevent queue times being ridiculously long.

I would say that a stacked team is also often the result of character switching (which is a player choice), and that function is not likely to be going any time soon.

It's amusing watching an opposing team stack 3 necros and 1-2 FBs only to lose the match due to being easily out-rotated by a more balanced team with mesmers, engis, rangers, thieves and sometimes spellbreakers.

I agree this scenario can be less fun but it's a case of exploiting the weaknesses of teams like that.

[Reverielle.3972]

I think it's simply a case that there just are too few players. In an ideal situation yes definitely, class stacking could be written out, but there has to be a balance between what is theoretically ideal, and the reality development is faced with.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

> > @"Kraitan.8476" said:

> > Its kitten dumb that every game has 2 of X class, 2 of Y class and maybe 1 other if you're lucky.

> > Doesn't matter if you win or lose, it's aids nonetheless. I fought 2 mirages at close with over 10 clones coming at me, after a minute of aids I just thought to myself, kitten it, I'll leave & give them the point, this ain't worth it.

>

> We've had threads about this already, but I understand your concerns.

> The current MM system aims not to stack multiples of a classes but there are compromises made when there are fewer people queuing in certain bracket (eg silver/gold/plat). This is to reduce the variance in team MMR and prevent queue times being ridiculously long.

 

It is also a "best effort" thing; it kinda sorta tries, but honestly, doesn't care that much, because...

 

> I would say that a stacked team is also often the result of character switching (which is a player choice), and that function is not likely to be going any time soon.

 

... players made the explicit choice, when it was presented by ANet, that they preferred to keep class switching in the period before a match starts. That means it is literally impossible for ANet to do anything other than give it a half hearted shot, because players can switch and mess it up after the matchmaker is done.

 

I voted against that "feature" for exactly this reason.

[Kathul.1280]

The question is : Does class swapping after the matchmaker picks the teams directly manipulate the match ? I would say yes it does. Unless their is some sort of evidence from the developers that states that the matchmaker doesn't compose teams based on class. As is, we should all just join pvp games as rev's then switch to whatever we want to play afterwards and see how the matches go then.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Kathul.1280" said:

> The question is : Does class swapping after the matchmaker picks the teams directly manipulate the match ? I would say yes it does. Unless their is some sort of evidence from the developers that states that the matchmaker doesn't compose teams based on class. As is, we should all just join pvp games as rev's then switch to whatever we want to play afterwards and see how the matches go then.

 

Matchmaker does attempt to avoid stacking classes in teams, and iirc when it does it does it when it can balance them throughout both teams (as in if Team A has _x_ class _y_, then Team B can't have less than _x_-1). But that's not the real problem.

The real problem is that Arena Net in 2015 were redesigning PvP, and then apparently stopped halfway, leaving things unfinished. That's why there was never a second vote on Ranked teams, that's why a lot of stuff in PvP seems contradictory.

This is one of those things. They want to avoid class stacking, but then they also want to allow players to change classes to counter other players (which is a good thing, counter-picks is of immense strategical value). The problem is that the game, for almost 6 years has been half-way through in that choice.

 

On one hand most players will stick to their picks, on the other hand, everyone can change. That means in a lot of matches this creates unbalanced games with stacked classes.

What the game needs is a proper team creation screen with a draft pick, like just about every competitive pvp game in the world. If everyone declares their classes in order, with a previous ban phase, you instantly solve TWO (maybe 3) problems with PvP:

1 - Class Stacking, kinda obvious, right?

Of course bans would need to be done differently, with only 9 classes and respective sub-classes you can't have 10 players banning a class entirely. What would need to be done is, banning "copies" of a class. Like immediately in ranked you'd have a hard-coded limit of (for example) 3 repetitions of any given class. Then each team would be taking turns banning slots. So if both teams ban 1 Necro (2 necros total), that means only one necro slot is available (could be for both teams or overall, then whoever picks necro first gets an advantage which is a thing with draft picks).

 

2- The balance issues would be lessened... That's pretty much what happens in MoBAs, when a character is overpowered, it usually gets immediate bans. So that's another problem that's addressed, if not entirely solved by a class selection screen.

 

3 (maybe) - with a more "onerous" and lengthy selection screen, people that are intending to just afk at game start, might be deterred to even start playing.

 

Of course this is a non-trivial problem to implement, but it's without a doubt the definitive solution to these problems.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"Kathul.1280" said:

> The question is : Does class swapping after the matchmaker picks the teams directly manipulate the match ? I would say yes it does. Unless their is some sort of evidence from the developers that states that the matchmaker doesn't compose teams based on class. As is, we should all just join pvp games as rev's then switch to whatever we want to play afterwards and see how the matches go then.

 

Eh, sure, but ... the same argument can be made about a whole pile of things. Anyway, point is: if you wanna go trolling back through the old forum archives with google, you can find the poll and the decision, I'm sure, that the ANet developers held to determine if class swapping should stay or go.

 

Since "stay" was the decision, this form of "match manipulation" is part of the system of rules, permitted explicitly. So, arguing about if it is, or isn't, "manipulation" is pointless, because regardless of the answer, we have the official ANet decision, which respected the community decision to permit it.

[Exedore.6320]

Removing class stacking doesn't make mirage, scourge, etc. not overpowered. All it does it make the person who locked that class a target for blame on a loss.

 

**Fix the problem** (overpowered class), **not the symptom** (everyone plays it).

[Devilman.1532]

the entire system is broken because it allows people to post que change and stack 3 necros or whatever else... had 3 matches out of 6 last night where 3 classes were stacked on one team. Once on my own team where I was the guard, there was a Mesmer and 3 necros. I felt bad for the other team....

 

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"Exedore.6320" said:

> Removing class stacking doesn't make mirage, scourge, etc. not overpowered. All it does it make the person who locked that class a target for blame on a loss.

>

> **Fix the problem** (overpowered class), **not the symptom** (everyone plays it).

 

Both are problems. Class balance is beneficial, because no class is strong against everything -- or at least, no class *should* be strong against everything, and see your first point for that one. ;)

 

Diversity helps out a lot. Makes for more interesting matches. I mean, if you asked me I'd try and put five distinct classes, but if you have not scheduled in a minute, accept two of a class. (or possibly spec rather than class, since different elites are pretty radically different experiences. anyway.)

 

*shrug*